E Ink Kaleido 4
eink.comhttps://web.archive.org/web/20261015180401/https://www.eink....
Mirror (eink.com isn't working for me): https://web.archive.org/web/20261015180401/https://www.eink....
Your mirror doesn't seem to work either
It did for me. It’s a press release:
> E Ink Kaleido 4 supports a broader range of digital content. Compared to the previous generation, E Ink Kaleido 4 doubles its color gamut volume to more than 40K, increases white reflectance by 15%, and improves contrast by 50%. Additionally, with the introduction of new algorithms, E Ink Kaleido 4 is capable of video playback at up to 18 frames per second (FPS).
> E Ink Kaleido 4 incorporates a new oxide TFT backplane that supports higher driving voltages and faster screen refresh. Combined with Hanvon Technology's proprietary "Enhanced Pressure Floating" technology and T2000 timing controller, it enables 27% faster page turning and scrolling on the M10C II. A redesigned front-light system also delivers clearer, more natural color reproduction.
That would be a huge improvement no ?
Other threads seem to be discussing that. I’m reserving judgment until I see independent color accuracy tests, since if they just made red redder that could fit these claims while being useless, so I have neither prediction nor opinion to offer you at this time. I don’t expect ProPhoto RGB but I do expect less abysmal color imbalances than the previous generation; we’ll have to see how much they’re depending on the panel lighting to spoof that test, I suspect.
I care more about the contrast and reflectsnce (given its eink) but good accuracy is always nice. Although I assume if your using external light sources you would need something high CRI
The contrast improvement is welcome for sure, but it remains to be seen what difference 15% white reflectivity makes.
Previous Kaleido products are fundamentally flawed. I'd hoped they would bin it for something better rather than make incremental improvements. Think it's also debatable what value colour brings unless you are regularly reading full colour magazines, PDFs etc.
> Think it's also debatable what value colour brings unless you are regularly reading full colour magazines, PDFs etc.
A photo frame in your home that rotates through a set of photos. My grandmother had one to help her remember her family, but it was an LCD. A color e-ink one would be so much nicer.
Any sort of information panel/dashboard or even just graphs inside education books. There are e-ink screens with only a couple colors (like black, white, red, and yellow), which lets you do things like "make this graph red when my waterheater is broken" but a full-color display opens up the possibilities considerably! For example, having line graphs with multiple lines.
If it was high refresh rate, I would consider it for a computer display for coding. I could never give up syntax highlighting so I need color.
> A photo frame in your home that rotates through a set of photos.
The e-ink photo frames that do this pretty much all use spectra panels instead of kaleido panels. Kaleido is a grayscale eink panel with a color filter array on top, spectra uses eink cells with up to six different pigments.
Spectra ends up being much brighter/clearer and with much better color fidelity (like nice magazine print vs color newspaper), but the downside is that it can take like 30 seconds to properly refresh the panel. That's unacceptable for a tablet, but fine for a photo frame.
50% contrast improvement is significant, but it’s from a base of only around 1:10, so will still be fairly low in absolute terms.
I use a black and white Boox tablet, I absolutely love it. I've had it for almost four years. My workflow includes reviewing documents, I annotate heavily. I wish I had just some yellow or orange for highlighting.
A colleague has the colour version of the same tablet, with a Kaleido 3 screen. It's terrible. It's unusable indoors without the backlight.
I wouldn't say it's terrible at all. With proper lighting it's excellent. I love reading color PDFs on it. In low light, the front light built into the device with variable brightness and warmth works perfectly. I guess it would be annoying if you had a Kaleido 3 color with no front light. You'd probably want to get some kind of clip-on external front light in that case.
I have it and i'd still say it is pretty terrible. Doesn't mean it's not useful (I love reading docs and comics on it), but the contrast is so bad that I have to drive it at full backlight to get something resembling readability on Kaleido 3.
That's not great for battery life.
Or for your eyes, which is one of the reasons people use these devices.> That's not great for battery life.
I'd love to have a color e-ink reader and have been looking for one for years. Every year some company markets their great new breakthrough display tech. Every year the improvements turn out to be minimal when you actually hold the device in your hands. So I've given up waiting and being excited about announcements. If a decent color e-ink exists one day I'll hear about it by word of mouth.
If you don't want colour then any discussion about the shortcomings of this tech are moot, as you will use a display with much higher contrast.
Bringing full colour _and_ high refresh rate would move these out of the eBook world into more into every day technology. There's definitely a market for colour eInk monitors, tablets, phones, etc. but the technology just isn't there yet. More and more people are wanting to disconnect from tech or at least minimize its addictiveness and a colour eInk screen would be a great step for people. That way they can still watch youtube, take photos, scroll their apps but the experience will feel less saturated and alluring.
Not sure if you are being facetious, but how would eink displays with the same color vibrancy and refresh rates of conventional displays help "disconnect from tech"?
Not the person you responded to, but basically ereaders are more appliance-like than phones. Being able to put color-requiring documents and textbooks - which tend to require a lot of flipping back and forth, and thus need high 'refresh' rates (BTW e-ink screens don't 'refresh', they just update) - into an ereader let's you go offline more completely.
Obviously ereaders are appliance-like in part because e-ink screens have bad color and update rates, but at least they'd be practical outside in direct sunlight, and it's not like ereaders would suddenly become technically impossible to be appliance-like.
Yeah, Personally I kind of don't want fast refresh rates, that would kind of make it more difficult to disconnect as there would be less friction in scrolling stuff and youtube
I am regularly reading comics and colored PDFs; the value of color e-ink is definitely not up for debate for me.
There's no question that there's room for improvement! But if you're only reading prose or black & white documents, you'd be better served by a black & white screen. Which is not cause to say that a useful, functional technology is "fundamentally flawed".
I've always wanted a color E-Ink tablet, but I could never figure out exactly why. Doctor, what's wrong with me?
I find e-ink screens infinitely more pleasant to look at than *LED
I know that’s the point, but I also know some people care more than others. I happen to be one of those who cares a lot.
E-ink tablets are also much more pleasant to hold for prolonged reading sessions!
That's true for smaller readers such as the Kindle or B&N Nook - I've had half a dozen Nooks. Now I use a 10" Boox device. I love the thing, but only when it's on the table. It is too heavy and far too slippery to hold. I even stuck sticky plastic table covering onto the back of the thing to make it nicer to hold instead of the cold, slippery aluminium. But it's still far too heavy.
My next device will be no heavier than 200 grams, and will not have a metal backing.
I find that sittin laterally on a couch or chaise lounge the tablet fits really nicely on my lap. But I agree, if the exact same tablet was like 9 inch and half the weight, it would be the perfect device for so many activities.
Is that because they're lighter-weight plastic? That would appear to be one of the primary differences between a Kindle (until recently) and an iPad...
In theory they should be amazing. Full color, looks like paper, basically an interactive magazine!
In practice the color isn't great, the screens are slow to refresh in an annoying way, and the resolution is a noticeably worse than an iPad. I also find that apps not explicitly made for e-ink are generally garbage when used on an e-ink device.
So far I have personally been incredibly disappointed with e-ink devices outside of e-readers. I want them to be good but the experience is just so much worse than an iPad.
I find the papery colors to be way more pleasant than the OLED saturated light blasted in my face. It has more of a newspaper feel than a saturday-morning cartoon oversaturation - which I appreciate more.
That's disappointing to hear, I'd love to get a 12-13" eink to replace an iPad that was used primarily for reading.
Me too. But it’s better than wanting a megayacht or some other more ridiculous affliction, isn’t it?
What do you mean - the color part? That is for information density.
Do you mean the e-ink part? That is for natural-light readability w/o requiring backlight, and for power-efficiency w/o requiring a heavy battery/frequent charging.
I have one but wish I'd bought a monochrome one. I barely use the colors, but the whites aren't as white as on a monochrome one.
I have a monochrome e-ink phone as my main portable device, I'm a huge fan of it. Completely cured me of Instagram and short-form video, it really does undo a lot of dopamine-seeking dark patterns. It's a cool aesthetic in itself too, a bit retrofuturistic.
Which one? Been tempted to try this
I've got the Bigme Hibreak Pro, I've de-googled mine but it's not a necessary thing to do if you don't want to.
I justified one to myself to read papers that have colored plots. Eink performance is still so marginal that the experience is too frustrating to rely on, and I would rather use a tablet.
Maybe if you wanted to read comics that only ever had mediocre artwork?
I have one and I read mostly magazines, papers and books on them. Its great to be able to read in direct sunlight without having to strain my eyes. I have wired it up to the laptop sometimes to use it as an external monitor for coding (slow but doable).
Hopefully this means a new Kobo Libra before too long.
I just want a B/W 3
Same, but I would be very surprised since they have not done so already. I will settle for a better color screen.
https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-33-3-6017 See section 5 on Kindle display measurements by optical coherence tomography. The Kaleido display is similar but with a matrix color filter layer. Those images weren't published.
This is a genuine question not snark — are these the people with the patents holding up the entire industry?
I’d say no. Not long ago I saw an HN user who debunked the theory that E Ink is holding the industry at gunpoint with “the patent.” Forgot his name, but he seemed to work in the monitor/display industry. It seems like it’s just a myth; nobody who claims the theory is true has been able to provide substantial evidence.
Found the user: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=robinsoh
Yes, although the original patent expired in 2017 so it's a little less clear-cut nowadays. They do have hundreds of patents and bought up basically all non-Chinese competitors though.
Regular old trade secrecy is also a big factor I think. I look for interesting new EPD papers on scholar.google from time to time, and they tend to be about stuff an undergrad would think of in the first twenty minutes, which suggests to me that everyone is trying to keep their tech very much under wraps.
Patent holding E Ink is a myth
I wish there was a DIY company targeting hobbiests that sold large poster-size eInk panels with tinkering in mind, like TRMNL or InkPlate.
TRMNL made one of these, 31.5” spectra 6. will start selling in a few weeks. fully hackable
I'm trying to find details on this, any links?
https://shop.trmnl.com/collections/devices/products/trmnl-x
search:
got me there pretty fast. Out of stock.TRMNL e-inkedit: yeah a long way short of 31"
31.5” full color will be available few weeks. demo is on our YouTube.
Can you share the demo link?
here’s a quick reveal, proper announcement and specs coming soon. https://youtu.be/hMlH8_bNIlo?t=57
I would love this as well. I dream of a clean dashboard for things like a shared calendar in my home.
Can't wait for the next generation of e-ink picture frames, Spectra 6 just doesn't cut it yet I'm afraid
Too bad this didn't make it into the new Kindle Colorsoft. Oh well
I was unable to load the page or cache. I have the Boox Tab X C. Does anyone know how the device being discussed compares?
You're using Kaleido 3 then.
Compared to the previous generation, E Ink Kaleido 4 doubles its color gamut volume to more than 40K, increases white reflectance by 15%, and improves contrast by 50%. Additionally, with the introduction of new algorithms, E Ink Kaleido 4 is capable of video playback at up to 18 frames per second (FPS).
Thank you.
Oh gawd yeah. Please, all I desire, all of my wishes, schematic and PCB layout on E-Paper. Please
This is their colour filtered black and white product. Quite muted colours in the past and it only really works well with a front light, which kind of ruins the point IMO.
I'm much more interested in their Spectra and Gallery displays which use color pigments. You can even buy e-ink gallery style displays for a totally unreasonable price!
https://inkposter.com/products/inkposter-tela-28-5?variant=4...
Actually to be fair that is not a totally crazy price.
You can buy a 13" color e-ink display for ~$250, or a 7" e-ink display for ~$60. These can be placed in a frame for a couple bucks more [2].
Two things that I did not anticipate:
1: Refresh time is a lot longer for color displays (~20s) as compared to black and white displays (~0.5s).
2: Stock images tend to use cartoons. There is a reason for that. These displays require dithering which seems to work a lot better with a limited color palette, flat areas, and bold edges.
[1] https://www.waveshare.com/13.3inch-e-paper-hat-plus-e.htm
It depends on the colour display. Kaleido screens use a colour filter over a B&W screen so they are just as fast as refreshing as the B&W ones. The other colour eInk displays are much slower which is why they've seen less uptick in consumer eReaders.
True, I should have specified that this applies to the parent comment's request for color pigments.
It’s requiring all my willpower not to take out a second mortgage and build a gallery wall filled with these. That image transition is gross but I guess it takes a lot more steps to move all those pigment layers around.
I wonder how white balance is handled across these products.
I recently bought the InkJoy frame which is similar to what's sold at your link and the white balance is _awful_ and grey.
I naively expect these to reflect light like paper photos and be nearly identical in that regard when mounted beside each other on a wall, but I've been disappointed with the results so far.
Colour depth is not _as_ big a deal to me as the image simply looking natural among printed photos.
I would also try going the other way, and build transreflective color LCDs - those don't have latency or refresh issues, like these weird hybrids.
They also consume nonzero (but very little) power, which is a moot point imo, since most Android eInk tablets run the computer in the background, which drains the battery anyways.
for anyone who already has a colored reader - is it better than ipad? i enjoy reading on my ipad and i can read for 2-3 hours on it daily without feeling any strain on my eyes.
I have a Kobo Clara Color. I like the product but colors are mostly a gimmick. Useful for the occasional chart and for books cover and that’s pretty much it.
Don’t expect iPad quality color, they’re very washed out.
I think a dedicated e-reader is a great choice (I only read books, not comics or other graphics heavy documents) but for that grayscale would be more than enough and color is an extra.
I would recommend you to go to a store and have a look live at a color eink screen to get a feel for what they offer.
I agree it's probably an unnecessary expense for 99% of people, but I actually find it very useful reading articles, news and academic work. Also, I really like the washed out newspaper look the colours have even though this makes them ill equipped for graphic novels.
My kids have Clara's and they love them for graphic novels. They had b/w kobo's before but would never go back (unless they stopped reading graphic novels).
Personally no. I've been reading a lot on LCD screens (PDAs if you know what those were), way back before eInk existed.
First, eInk used to be glossy, and not backlit which sucked, since you needed a light source to illuminate it well enough, but not so much that it shone on the screen and caused weird reflections.
After they added backlight, it became much better, but I'm not sure how it's better than an LCD (I dont think it is).
The only thing that sucks both about the iPad and most ereaders is the lack of physical buttons to flip pages, which makes 1 handed operation clumsy at best.
>>The only thing that sucks both about the iPad and most ereaders is the lack of physical buttons to flip pages, which makes 1 handed operation clumsy at best
I was just thinking about this yesterday; to have either a voice controlled flipper or an eye tracker where i lock and blink at the bottom right corner to flip or something like it; but couldn't figure out the battery drain that these systems will cause to have the models always on.
Personally, I used to use a hacked PSP in 'portrait' to read. It fit really well in my hand and I could operate the shoulder button by squeezing it against my palm. It worked really well, and actually I just took it out of the drawer, and it's still pretty comfortable to operate.
Wonder why they never innovated on the clearly limited smartphone touch controls.
"Man, you know what that FAANG device lacks? A microphone and/or camera."
I have a color eInk Android tablet and I greatly prefer my Kobo Clara BW for general readability. I ended up disabling color in the accessibility settings.
The contrast is terrible compared to b/w eInk. The front light is necessary under anything but bright sunlight. But the front light washes out the colors, so much so that it’s a readability problem. So I only take it out of black and white mode when I’m using it outdoors.
It sounds like this new version of color eInk might be better. But I think it really would have to be an enormous difference for me to prefer it over B&W eInk.
I had one of the colored Boox models, and I actually liked it less than the b/w ones. It doesn't reflect enough light, and so I felt like I needed to use the backlight on it most of the time. I sold it and went back to b/w e-ink.
It is not. I just got a Boox Go 7 Color Gen 2 and it's slower than a turtle. Returning after 5 days.
I like the form factor with turn page buttons on the side, but the lag/latency is insane. It's ok for books only, but I got the Boox for Android under the hood so that I could scan my email and RSS. I wish there was an OLED or an LCD version of the same device.
I have a b/w page-sized Kobo, but I can tell you one nice thing vs the iPad is the weight. I don’t think the color (at lower resolution) is worth it for me.
Which one do you have?
Kindle's color tablets look a bit better than Kobo's, by my estimation. But neither is anywhere near iPad-level color saturation or contrast.
I think Amazon does some special stuff with the backplane or something. Seems like it's not 100% marketing gimmicks if it actually looks better.
Colors are as vibrant as late 90s cheap laptops.
Why is iPad even mentioned here? This is better than iPad in the same way as a printed book is better than an oled TV.
They're two different things for different uses, one blasts light and colour in your eyes, other has a paperly look.
because iPad is my primary reader at this moment.
It's still a kinda useless question because you're comparing two very different things.
you are absolutely right
I had one and sold it. All Kaleido color displays are really really dark, even outdoors, with the exception of in direct sunlight. Monochrome eInk displays are much brighter and better, especially for reading.
Not really if you want to read color content. If your usecase is pure B/W, it's better.
This comes from someone using color eink table.
> is it better than ipad?
Only you can answer that, “better” is a personal choice. A dedicated e-ink reader does less than an iPad (some see that as a bonus, others as a disadvantage). E-ink colours aren’t as vibrant and devices are slower, but the battery life, weight, cost, and reduced eye strain can more than make up for it.
If possible, I recommend grabbing one at a store nearby and playing with it a bit. You’ll soon understand if the weight, speed, and colours are enough for you.
The problem with this technology is that it uses conventional colored subpixels to create arbitrary colors via additive RGB mixing. This results in a rather dark image, because the screen swallows two thirds of the incoming light.
For example, if you want to show a red surface, you have to make the green and blue subpixels black, resulting in an overall dark red. This problem does not exist for colored paper, monochromatic E Ink screens. Nor does is exist for active LCD or OLED screens, which also use subpixel color mixing, but do not have to rely on ambient light.
The electrophoresis-based screens from E Ink actually support more than two colors (e.g. black/white/red or black/white/yellow for signage) without using subpixels, but that's not enough to create thousands of colors for arbitrary content.
I think electrophoretic e-paper screens are just not suited for subpixel-free colors, but other promising e-paper screen technologies have been abandoned a while ago.
Amazon just refreshed their colorsoft kindles with Kaleido 3 so this is an interesting development. I wonder if Amazon had a heads up, I would have buyer's remorse right now if I bought a new colorsoft kindle recently knowing that there's a better version of the screen just around the corner.
I feel like amazon tends to wait a couple of years before using whatever the latest e-ink screen is and claim to do a lot of customization and calibration as compared to their competitors.
They don't have a great trackrecord here with QA or any of that for all the waiting. The first colorsoft noticeably has an issue with yellow banding on the bottom edge. It's a well documented issue and if waiting was supposed to help with issues like that, it clearly did not.
True, although I do think people have generally thought the colorsoft was a bit better viewing experience than the Kobo color options. The QA seems to always be a bit off with amazon and I would always recommend waiting a bit before buying from them.
Still nothing for people who don't care about the color gimmick? I mean my Aura One is still going strong, but I fear it'll never be replaced by something better (or even as good).
Its a luxury, but not a gimmick IMHO. My last real use case for my color laser is printing out papers with lots of graphs/diagrams that use color. The kindle scribe color looks cool but needs to at least halve in price before I start really considering it. I might even give textbooks a go on it, I prefer paper, but they are often so heavy, it might be a worthwhile tradeoff.
I think most go this route for comics, graphic novels and some read magazines on it. Niche, but not a gimmick.
Once I saw that Kobo was going all in on the color e-readers I decided I'm going to sit this whole trend out and bought another Aura One. Between it and the one I currently own they should carry me for a long, long time.
The Aura One is essentially perfect. The only gripes I have are the USB port and non-removable battery. It is a bit slow with the stock OS but with KOreader it runs amazingly well.
I'm in the exact same situation, still rocking an Aura One with KOReader and can't find anything with that form factor in black/white that satisfies me.
There's something to be said with a device that has a single purpose and supports custom firmware: other than the micro-USB port and the slightly shorter battery charge I don't think I will be changing it soon.
I Started with an Aura One, it was my very first eink device. When it died about a year ago, I bought a Kindle Scribe thinking I was getting an Aura, but with a larger screen.
B/W only, thin in the hand, simple interface, PDF transfer via USB.
I also have a kobo aura one and was just recently researching potential upgrades and was shocked even looking outside of strictly kobo that I couldn't find anything that was a clear upgrade or equivalent on various features against it. For a product almost ten years old it's so weird.
Color is a gimmick for e-ink now? I wonder if people thought the same thing when they brought color to television.
For pure reading of text it provides minimal benefit (color highlighting and cover art, mostly) while costing contrast ratio and dollars. Especially since some devices (e.g. Kobo Libra) are now offered only with a color display, I can see why someone would call it a gimmick. I personally view the reflectivity of eink as the entire point and thus have no interest in it.
That said, of course if you want to view color content on an EPD then it is quite necessary and not a gimmick at all.
Even when your book is mostly B/W text, sometimes it may contain color content (Like illustration, or graph). This is 1 of pet peeve i have with monochrome eink.
Color ink remains a niche in books.
Perhaps revisiting what "gimmick" means would help you. Plenty of people use their e-ink readers to look at magazines, comics, news. Plenty of people have a highlighting system. Arguing that color is a "gimmick" is silly considering there are practical applications of color, as we can see around us in the real world. Some of you are seriously living in the weirdest of bubbles.
Biology spent a ton of time adapting and evolving for the ability to see color but sure, it's a gimmick. I guess you should consider syntax highlighting a gimmick in code editors as well? Charts/graphs in textbooks use color as a gimmick, any book that include illustrations/images in color are gimmicks
Pal, I’m not the one who used the word. I am observing that books are predominantly black ink in white paper, despite color ink being around before the printing press.
It comes with a massive loss of contrast so it's a bit of a gimmick, yeah.
That doesn't mean it's a gimmick. Again, I implore you to actually look up what "gimmick" means. Just because there's a tradeoff doesn't mean that it's a gimmick. In fact, the very issue that you're talking about is something that is improving from Kaleido 3 to Kaleido 4. So even people that use this argument have something to take note of in this release.
When we went from black & white photography to color photography we also introduced a lot of tradeoffs. Would you have considered color photography a gimmick ?
> Would you have considered color photography a gimmick ?
It sucked or was massively inconvenient for the first 50+ years.
I own color eInk tablet(s) and BW readers so I'm very well aware what the usability and tradeoffs are.
Right now - on smaller devices focused on books like 6-8" Kobo/Kindle devices this is primarily a gimmick used for book covers and perhaps some text highlights at best. That's what makes it a gimmick, especially since it comes with such a massive loss of contrast that you need to drive the backlight at 90-100% during the day to get readable experience out of it.
And I'm happy that Kaleido 4 improves this (it's one of the things I'm most excited with for my 10" Boox where color screen is much more useful), but even with 50% improvement the contrast is still significantly worse than on the BW readers, making the experience of reading normal books a significant downgrade in exchange for some color front covers.
Your comparisons to TV are just inane, the tradeoffs aren't even remotely similar. Noone is clamoring for rainbow letters on their Kindle.
So you're purposefully ignoring comics, news, magazines to make your point? Just because you don't read them doesn't make it a gimmick.