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Tell HN: OpenAI keeps re-enabling the 'allow training' setting

248 points by jacquesm · 87 comments · 1 min read


I've reset this more than once and the last time I made a careful note of when I did it and to my surprise I found it re-enabled when I checked just now. Make sure you check this thing to see if it hasn't been re-enabled if you believe it to be off right now.

30 threads
sunaurus

Based on their behavior over the past few years, why would you assume that checkbox even does anything at all?

  • ALLTaken

    Levent Alpöge 'additionally' proved OpenAI steals your findings & IP and plays dirty!

    Ironically he proved two major findings in Navier Strokes and that unethical American companies violate laws, steal your breakthrough findings & IP and then threaten you if you dare to challenge them.

    This is making the status-quo so bad for any of us working on serious capacity. My client's don't trust ChatGPT/Claude anymore and prefer on-premises and OSS models or even custom trained models.

    • lxgr

      Did they do so by looking at inference prompts against their explicit promises, or maybe just because somebody tipped them off about his unpublished work?

      If it's not the former, while certainly concerning, I don't see how that's relevant here (other than maybe in a very vague general sense of "entities doing immoral/illegal thing X are likely to also do immoral/illegal thing Y").

  • dgellow

    The vast majority of OpenAI users don’t follow the industry drama and have no idea how terrible the company is. They’ve been really good at getting good press coverage, with journalists who will repeat the company narrative. Even when critical it is very often framed within the narrative they established

    • spongebobstoes

      what makes the company so terrible?

      • Centigonal

        IDK about "terrible," but:

        - OpenAI is the first AI lab to pioneer ads in consumer AI

        - Anthropic seemingly exists primarily because top OpenAI researchers lost faith in the company's commitment to AI safety

        - They had the CEO drama in 2023, with evidence that suggests people in a position to know were doubtful of Sam Altman's honesty and motives

        - They were tripping over themselves to kiss the ring after Anthropic got in a row with the Department of War over using AI for autonomous killing systems and surveillance of US citizens

        - Altman's record (YC, Loopt, WorldCoin) and associates suggests he subscribes to the Paypal-Facebook "move fast, break things, find and exploit gray areas" school of company building

        All of this suggests that OpenAI will optimize its own growth and power over consumer welfare or societal stability in the future (obviously, companies aren't a monolith and I'd love to be wrong).

      • riffic

        So, the way this orange site works is that if anyone makes a reference to whatever sort of inside baseball concern ("industry drama"), we're all supposed to know what they're talking about.

  • stavros

    If it didn't do anything, they wouldn't keep re-enabling it.

  • altmanaltman

    While that is true, you also have no reason to assume OP is being truthful or correct here given that they have shown 0 proof of what they're saying. Yes, you can then pile on "OF COURSE ITS OPENAI LOL YOU THINK THEY CARE ABOUT PRIVACY LOL" but where have we established OP's premise is even correct? Can anyone else also report this? So is it just OpenAI specifically messing with OP?

samvher

I also noticed this on 2 accounts - did not take as careful notes as you did unfortunately. But I'm fairly confident - both of these are accounts where I care about the interactions not being used for training.

What's kind of still an open question for me is if the toggle automatically also applies to my Codex CLI use on the same account, or if that data is still silently being used in some way.

After this happened, I deleted all my ChatGPT history (even though I'm not sure how much it helps at this point), but for Codex I still haven't really found any way to do the same, I can still load my past sessions even after archiving them.

cbg0

I've disabled the checkbox many months ago and it's still disabled today. EU citizen, not sure if that's relevant.

ActionHank

Lol, "Outrageous that the company that chose to ignore copyright holder claims, chose to ignore my checkbox of intent despite the implied pinky promise".

  • achrono

    Ignoring the checkbox is an utterly offensive move, but repeatedly manipulating it contrary to stated consumer intent is a whole other level. I didn't know we were supposed to take 'frontier' literally in every sense of the word.

    I have now witnessed this myself after not believing this at first. Of course, screenshots etc. will hardly prove anything. This needs a proper third-party audit!

    • xboxnolifes

      Oh they aren't a frontier on this. Undoing user configuration is well tested in Windows land.

    • gspr

      You know what they'll say in their defense. "This is an extremely complicated systems, and we apologize that a technical solution was broken in an intricate way. [Insert boilerplate about taking privacy seriously here]"

      These companies need to burn.

    • pavel_lishin

      > Ignoring the checkbox is an utterly offensive move, but repeatedly manipulating it contrary to stated consumer intent is a whole other level.

      I'm not sure why the second one is worse than the first one.

qurren

Note: Turning off that checkbox is not enough. You also need to fill out the "Do not train on my content" request here:

https://privacy.openai.com/policies?modal=take-control

yipinwong

Does OpenAI use optimistic UI updates? After you disabled the checkbox, it might have had failed in the backend (and not updated the UI).

Verify with devtools to see if that's the case.

---

for me, Youtube "auto-play" irks the me same way, and turning it off did not actually succeed in the backend, thus kept on left as on

terminalbraid

I quit OpenAI anything early when when their "do not train on my data" option was broken for several weeks. They are my one and only chargeback when I tried to quit and oops somehow I still got billed.

They are a deeply unethical company by any measure of observation.

frangonf

There's also this setting here which I have set to 'Do not train on my content' even though I trust it the same as the 'allow training' one...

https://privacy.openai.com/policies/en/?modal=take-control

simonw

Is this about the "improve the model for everyone" checkbox on https://chatgpt.com/#settings/DataControls or are there others to check, too?

(That copy is a little flawed in my opinion, I'd prefer "models" plural.)

That checkbox is in the ChatGPT settings, does it affect Codex desktop / Codex CLI as well?

olalonde

Weird, I'm the opposite. I don't recall ever setting mine and I just checked and it was set to "disallow training".

  • 8cvor6j844qw_d6

    > I don't recall ever setting mine and I just checked and it was set to "disallow training".

    I wonder if the default setting changed for newer accounts.

  • riffic

    Is this Settings > Data Controls > "Improve the model for everyone" or is there a "disallow training" somewhere else?

    presumably its default behavior will vary depending on your user subscription or if your account belongs to an organization (Business, Enterprise, Edu?).

the_duke

I disabled it once, it has always stayed disabled.

So it may or may not happen regularly, but I would not over-index on a sample size of one.

  • aurareturn

    Same here.

  • czk

    had my account since the gpt 3.5 days, disabled it once and its still disabled. though, now that i have advanced account security enabled, the setting is disabled entirely

amelius

If you document it properly then this basically destroys any legal claim they can make about that checkbox.

  • vb-8448

    Out of curiosity, how one is supposed to "document it properly"?

    • amelius

      Claude is actually quite good at legal advice (certainly better than most HN commenters), and it gives quite a few options.

andsoitis

> Make sure you check this thing to see if it hasn't been re-enabled if you believe it to be off right now.

Or simply switch to a competitor. Assuming this is not just a bug, why would one stand for such disrespectful and sneaky behavior?

FWIW, I have not seen this happen for me.

  • _zoltan_

    what competitor?

    the x20 Max plan for Claude gives you way lover limits.

    • dgellow

      Well, it’s a tradeoff. What do you prefer? To go with the service provider known to be shady but gives you lots of free stuff or the one that might be less shady and gives you less free stuff?

      • CuriouslyC

        Anthropic is shady too my guy. Claude Code will frequently re-ask you to turn on data sharing even after you've said no, it's dark patterned like a task approval, and once you turn it on it's harder to turn off than OAI makes it.

        • troyvit

          They did say "less shady" but at this point Anthropic and OpenAI are approaching parity.

        • dgellow

          I hedged my comment by using the conditional tense + “less shady”, because I couldn’t find such issue reported. If you have a link I would be interested to read it. I’m just not aware of shady behavior from Anthropic with regards to training on user data

        • andsoitis

          > Anthropic

          OpenAI and Anthropic are but two players. There are others too. You have choice.

        • cma

          I've been asked over 15 times by Claude code to turn it back on (with the prompt defaulted on so if you accidentally hit enter your data is sucked in if you don't catch it).

          I do think it ended up being after a power outage though and it was some kind of config corruption.

    • andsoitis

      > lover limits.

      lovers should never be limited!

    • cheeze

      Bedrock is an option. Multiple platforms with solid data sovereignty.

      If you don't want them slurping your data, you're gonna have to pay more.

      Same as it ever was.

  • cute_boi

    And don't switch to Misanthropic lol. They are even worst...

jacobgold

If you have more than one account, you should suspect this was your own confusion. Users constantly report errors like this that are really just them being confused by something, perhaps a bad UI that really is to blame.

Rebuff5007

I wish all the politicians making noise about banning data centers and "superintelligence" focus on things like this instead.

gcr

Is this the “Improve model for everyone” setting under “Data Controls” or is that a different checkbox?

mkarrmann

I also have not seen this, the checkbox has stayed off for me.

antonok

I've noticed that toggle sets a local storage entry, but the value of it doesn't appear to matter at all for new tab loads. I hoped it's "just" a UI bug, but some agent-driven reverse engineering of the page should reveal the answer, as well as how intentional it was.

jasonjmcghee

I've done the formal opt-out process - like "Make a privacy request" where you fill out a form.

Not sure if that's region specific or something though.

jerf

My cynicism fails me on this matter... do I cynically believe that these companies keep deliberately and routinely re- or un-checking these checkboxes because of the obvious benefits of "whoopsie guess you allowed these after all"? Or do I cynically believe that they are just so completely incompetent and inept at the simple act of maintaining settings that there may be a number of these that are not entirely intentional? As evidenced by the number of other bugs and configuration failures and random settings changes on update I see in other places? Sure, these sorts of settings sure seem to get spontaneously flipped more often than the other ones but they aren't the only settings I've seen get nuked on updates.

Now, obviously, considered as a whole, I think we're looking at "both". But when I wonder about specific cases like this one, that doesn't help.

  • pacificat0r

    Oh no… OpenAI, the company who encourages and instructs Apple employees on how to get them data on apple products when they accept an offer?

  • yearolinuxdsktp

    “Autoplay” and YouTube case in point:

    - Autoplay transitioned to a per-device setting… suddenly default-on on every new device you log in to.

    - Watching a video with computer-to-TV account connection? Automatic “TV queue,” a concept absent from the TV app, with incomprehensible behavior for how it’s used, so now videos are auto-played anyway.

    - Watching a video from a playlist? Autoplay cannot be turned off.

    Is it simply bad/absent product management and product design? Or is it actively user-hostile decisions meant to prop up view numbers and continue to have the users hooked on YouTube?

  • 27183

    Yeah this could just be some vibeslop doing normal computer stuff. AI agents are famously incompetent at reasoning about database transactions. This seems like the sort of failure you get when you try to do distributed systems without knowing how--brings us back to the early mongodb days. Or it could be deliberate. Or, as you say, both.

    Either way, is this a company you want to trust with intimate secrets? "Oh, but they passed SOC2!" Lol.

  • philipov

    "Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice"

enraged_camel

Can confirm. I turned off mine last week when I started using it again for Astra. Checked this morning and voila, it was on.

I went ahead and uninstalled the app. Won't be renewing.

docheinestages

Nice try, Dario.

arpinum

Turn on "Advanced Account Security", that prevents model training from being turned on.

throwatdem12311

It won’t be an option soon enough. I doubt they even honour it now anyway.

epsteingpt

Bro if these models can break into hugging face, they FOR SURE can break into OAI's internal databases and change a flag.

thatmf

Navier-Stokes has entered the chat

snihalani

reminder to consider using an open weights model

kd913

Odd how much data people are trusting with a company on a monetary cliff edge.

Sure send them all your financial, personal data, they won't ever sell it on to the highest bidder for a new profit stream.

Using it as a therapist, financial advisor, health expert and blackboard has always been a terrible idea.

codeduck

if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

franzcoughka

i mean, the entire company is built upon stealing protected artefacts... i'd be skeptical of any radio box that says "hey if you press this we promise we won't steal your data"

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