Stalking the Wily Hacker: 40 years later – Cliff Stoll [video]
youtube.comI watch a lot of videos at 1.5x. Older Cliff Stoll videos don't work at 1.5x. Cliff at 1.0x is already like other people at 1.5x.
I am so stoked to see Cliff at 1.0x in 2026 is still like other people at 1.5x. I am so glad to see Cliff still out there talking. "The Cuckoo's Egg"[0] was formative for me when I was a kid getting into computers. I am so happy that Cliff is out there making formative experiences for new hackers today.
Great talk, Cliff. (The "adjusted for inflation" quip about the budget made my day, too.)
Thanx, Evan - from my nonNewtonian frame of reference, life is happening at 1x, but time dilation is difficult to measure. I’ll try living at 0.5x someday. -Cliff
The book is brilliant.
Also worth mentioning is the rather dramatic PBS Nova episode from 1990, The KGB, the Computer, and Me -- starring, of course, Cliff Stoll. It's an entertaining take of the same topic.
I couldn't find a way to pay for a copy of it[], but this one on YouTube is pretty clean compared to the state of many other old NTSC things on our modern interweb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW8YBrH4Q6o
[]: Of course, a person is free to toss PBS a few dollars and/or buy an Acme Klein Bottle. :)
Already got my Klein bottle last year!
(I recommend everyone do it—the personal notes from Cliff are priceless.)
I bought one for my dad a long time ago. I was late in ordering (if memory serves) and asked if I could pick it up in person. Not only did Cliff say yes, but he gave me a tour of his shop and let me watch as he retrieved the bottle from his crawl space storage with a robot he’d built. Incredible customer service!
Bought my wife a pair of Klein bottle earrings. They arrived with pictures Cliff had taken of them in his garden. Lovely man.
I bought one for my sister a few years ago. Can confirm, the email chain alone is worth it. :D
There was a British program as well. Sadly my copy got mangled by our VCR and I haven’t found it anywhere online.
Do you know what was it called, and when/where it aired?
It is possible that some here have different methods for finding things.
I think it was called Spycatcher. It was on a commercial channel, possibly Yorkshire TV.
I remember making that video - we went up to Calistoga and spent time in a mud-bath. If you find the video, I'd enjoy seeing it! Thanx, -Cliff
Cliff,
I haven't quite given up on this, but I am running out of leads. I'm dropping this here mostly to benefit others by leaving some information all in one place.
It seems that it was first episode of the first season [S01E01] of a Yorkshire Television series named Science Fiction (oh, how I wished they'd picked a less-ambiguous name). This episode was named Spycatcher.
It's listed on IMDB[0] with an air date of Feb 15, 1990, but that date may be wrong. It was discussed twice[1] in TV-section articles in the Hull Daily Mail (Feb 10th and 13th, 1990), and some freely-visible blurbs from those suggest that it aired on a Tuesday at 7:30PM. That more-strongly ties the date down at February 13, 1990 than the IMDB's entry of Feb 15th.
Except: The verdict in Germany didn't come until Feb 15th[2]. I wonder of the Yorkshire Television Science Fiction episode had the same conclusion as the PBS Nova episode did, or if it left things more open-ended. That would help to pin down the date. :)
Some of the clues along the way include an old copy[3] of your own web pages at Berkeley, and one comment[4] on HN from a couple of years ago (they gave up on finding it).
I don't know enough about British television norms (much less the history) to really understand how any of this stuff flows, but I'm gaining the impression that the remains of Yorkshire Television might be owned by ITV, and that archives are likely to still exist.
I've seen reports that people have had success purchasing personal-use copies of old programs by sending an email to viewers.requests@itv.com if anyone wants to go that route.
[0]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1385328/
[1]: https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.com/search-newspapers/re...
[2]: You're mentioned in a world record by Guinness! :) https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/612868-fi...
[3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20090415204255/http://www.ocf.be...
It looks like it was the Yorkshire Television (YTV) series "Science Fiction" episode titled "Spycatcher".
Search-engining turned up a discussion[0] from 2011 where a poster, "ukscone", purported to have been an adviser and actor in the production, and to have a PAL VHS copy. Searching "ukscone" on the Raspberry Pi forum got me to a Github profile[1], a Mastodon account[2], and a personal website[3] (with other "social" links). I'm not a "social network" person (beyond HN), but perhaps somebody here who is interested and has access to one of the various "socials" in question would reach out to "ukscone". (I'm not seeing an email address or I'd do it. I'm an old curmudgeon who no longer wants to participate in social networks.)
[0] https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=1067
[1] https://github.com/ukscone
It looks like we've been doing our homework in parallel. I've gone down a different rabbit hole here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49458147
(1990) The KGB, the Computer and Me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gHNVNRQTJg
The only paperback book I've ever sat down and read in one sitting. Started on a lazy Sunday morning and literally couldn't put it down. Highly recommended if you've not read it.
Joel, it's a secret glue that we smeared on the binding. It also helps prevent the Oxford commas from falling off the pages. -C
Thanks! Just ordered the book. Cliff Stoll is a treasure, I knew vaguely about this story, but not about the book. Looking forward to it.
I watched the talk and I wanted to be 76 to have that energy.
A coworker suggested that I read The Cuckoo's Egg and I sorta shrugged it off. When I got around to reading it, I was pretty happy that it exists. It's a real time-portal to a pre-security internet. You can skip all the descriptions about how tech works, which are included for normies. Imagine not using passwords or just using 'password' or all the other stuff that we did when we were young and stupid. Then imagine government agencies doing the same. What? Yep. That's what the book is about.
It wasn't quite a time of innocence, more like a time of trust-through-ignorance. The entire network was built on people who relied on each other for connectivity, software, and support. I once got slapped down for suggesting that we put passwords on an astronomy computer: "What have we got to hide?". (Turned out that someone had set up a bulletin board server on that system, without anyone's knowledge.) Cheers, -Cliff
I'm European so when I read your book I read the first time about the NSA and I totally got the wrong impression of them, might also be, that they changed a lot since then
I watched the talk and you had quite a lot of run-ins with feds.
It seems they kind of had some idea about this stuff especially after what you uncovered. There was a movie from 1983 called "WarGames" !?!?
Why oh why cyberspace was only recognised as 5th operational domain only in 2016? Why do we have all kinds of cyber regulations kicking in past 3-4 years (well GDPR was already 10 years ago).
I guess you don't have the answers (asking Cliff Stoll but whoever else feels like responding I will be happy as well) for that but I think it still a fun question to ask. I obviously don't want to call out anyone stupid but somehow I cannot believe it took all that time to grow and become what it is today with all the regulations and "important" people recognising the issue.
> "It's a real time-portal to a pre-security internet."
It wasn't that long ago where the network traffic of every website was transmitted in the clear via http, not https. Literally anyone at a coffee shop could listen to the WiFi network and see everything being sent and received in plain text. GMail didn't move to https until 2010, and I think it was one of the first webmail sites to do it. Browsers only started flagging non-https sites just in the past few years.
It already seems far fetched, honestly.
I saw him live in a presentation he gave in Chicago, early 90s. He and his book are the cause of my switching from a very young PhD in thermodynamics career to going back to school for CS, then working in the latter field until retirement, years back. I also read his Silicon Snake Oil book, as soon as it came out, which he - himself - publicly claimed to have been in error, in parts, sometimes, but about which I now think - looking at X, TruthSocial, TikTok, etc. - that may, in fact, has been premonitory...
> Silicon Snake Oil book, as soon as it came out, which he - himself - publicly claimed to have been in error, in parts, sometimes, but about which I now think - looking at X, TruthSocial, TikTok, etc. - that may, in fact, has been premonitory...
It wasn’t really premonitory. More technophobic. It’s understandable in 1995 to have written it as few could envision what we have today.
Look up the definition of "premonitory". It definitely is.
I felt like Cassandra. Still do.
What a fascinating video. What a treat to hear him talk.
Much of my excitement has been dying off due to the commercialization of the hacker community, the culture war, and the constant legislative losses for privacy and effective ownership of goods you purchase because they've code in them you often cannot legally circumvent the "digital lock" on.
I'm curious what can be done to get it back. It seems the more I care, the more I get jaded due to the constant loss of freedom with tech.
The Cuckoo's Egg is still one of the best security books ever written. Glad he's still around.
It's the first book I read about computer history and made me interested in tech, a career I love doing every day :) this talk made me very happy.
If The Cuckoo's Egg is one of the best ones, I can skip the rest. It's a fun story, but not particularly well-told in my opinion. Cliff Stoll is a cool guy who does cool things. I guess I just don't appreciate him as an author.
Thank you Cliff!
I had shivers most of the time during the talk, it was touching me from the inside and flipping me back like a latex glove. And while I knew your story I confess I listened to you for the first time.
It was the most amazing cyber space trip ever, feeling those copper lines and understanding you could interface with their content.
You simply represent what a hacker is, I'm getting older and loosing motivation and creativity, but after hearing you I swear I will never give that up and I promise I will keep the hardcore digging for those cents.
You are our father.
And my warm thanks to you, Giov. As you realize, in that talk I probably covered 5 percent of what actually happened. But that's storytelling.
Like you, as I've grown older, I cherish those times when my old-school skills are still useful - whether in computing, physics, or electronics. And there's so many new goodies that I'm never bored.
Anyways - how often do you get a chance to show a slide rule to a thousand people? Cheers, -Cliff
It's been a few years - and I guess decades - since I read Cliff's book. One thing I recall is his journey from a Berkeley hippie to a man dealing with the military and men in suits and realizing that they are also good and necessary people. And also becoming a family man if I remember correctly.
It's a really important part of the story in my mind of Cliff growing up - sort of - as part of the experience.
Yes, Xyz, you got it right. I started out as an apolitical Berkeley techie (not exactly a hippie) and came to realize that the government and, yes, the military were necessary and important to preserve the community that I was living in. It's easy to scribble "Stop the CIA" on Berkeley stop-signs; but who's going to inform our government about what's happening in the world? I did a lot of growing-up during that chase.
As Bob Segar said, I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.
I think the actual curve of "rebellious hacker sort" eventually comes into contact with "orderly military type" and how a person chooses to deal with that interaction more or less determines the next 50+ years of their lives. I've seen your bottles around, and maybe someday when my bank account has fewer pressing purchases on it, I'll get one! (Unless your bottles also come with three wishes?)
Great followup interview, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJCWsoozg0Q
I saw him speak at the Dayton Hamvention two times. Absolute fun and like no other.
When I was CSO at Relativity, I conducted security awareness training for all, and gave each one a copy of Cuckoo’s Egg.
There's nothing like speaking to the choir. When you have the same common denominator, it makes storytelling easy.
The Defcon ham radio village was packed -- I picked up a lot of info on meshtastic. Last night set up a node in my attic.
Super. I have begun to look at meshtastic.
The talk was wonderful.
w8lvn
I would not take the advice of somebody, if that persons basement is not full of klein-bottles. Everything else is just surface level ..
My kids don't take the advice of anyone who has Kleinbottles in their crawlspace, fdsa. And I doubt if removing those glass manifolds would have much effect. -C
I checked my basement Klein bottle stock and it looks like I’ve got zero volume. How much can I put you down for? (we sell by the litre)
I wanted it fractal glass etched with clifstolls name, but they wouldn't do that.
I have a Klein bottle on the shelf behind me, and next to it sits a Klein bottle opener, just in case. https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/branded-collection/klein-...
One of my favorite books is "The Cuckoo's Egg". I read it at least yearly. Cliff Stoll has had an incredible impact on my interests. I'm happy to see him doing talks.
And my thanks to you, Peaceful Lulz. I had fun writing that book, and occasionally do a talks. Couldn’t resist a 40th anniversary spoutathon at defcon! -Cliff
I read your book when I was ten years old! I was later stoked to find our computer system at school was a Unix machine, so I could try some of the commands you explained in the story, like ps and sendmail.
sorry guys just noticed but shouldn't the "Baby klein bottle" be called "Klein klein bottle"?
www.kleinbottle.com
is this an overlooked DE pun by Cliff? is that even possible?
That was really fun to watch and I took the chance to also watch the 40 year recap from the German side (in German tho https://media.ccc.de/v/ho26-124-vom-hacker-zum-spion-die-ges...).
Stoll is a treasure. His enthusiasm for science and teaching never gets old.
Thanks @CliffStoll for the wonderful talk.
Quite welcome, Red Beard. I had fun doing that spoutathon. Meeting old friends at DefCon. Way fun.
Yes, thank you! Our whole family of nerds enjoyed it and I had to explain quite a few things to daughter but not the over head projector at least, she did bump into that tech in school for some art project.
She just installed linux on the laptop for university study and got to hear about what people used before "more" and "less" :-)
Smiles to you and your family, Moru — you’re now passing along the good word to the next generation. Heart be still…
God damn, this world needs more Cliff Stolls.
What a great talk. I read The Cuckoo's Egg in Spring '90. Changed my life. Thanks.
You are a wonderful, wonderful person. Your book is one of my favourite books I've read, ever. Thank you so much for writing it!
Your kindness reflects back to you, Chris: I thank you for brightening my morning. Now, if only I had a biscotti…. -Cliff
@CliffStoll did you talk with Markus Hess. i think he is active on thewilyhacker.de?
You are on my short-list of people I look up to.
Thank you!
Does “short” modify “list” or “people” ?
Cliff, I'm not sure if you're still reading and responding to this thread, but I'm just wondering if you heard back about how the pope enjoyed the Klein bottle that you sent him via Guy Consolmagno!
The PBS Nova episode about Stoll was the literal starting point of my discovery of the internet.
Because of the show, my next year in university I signed up for an elective CompSci course (I was an English Literature major) about threat assessment. Part of our course involved browsing the RISKS Forum newsgroup on the Sparc Stations at the University of Toronto Engineering Annex.
That episode was also the beginning of my fascination with telecom equipment, which I got the chance to use professionally for about a year in 1998-1999. There's a telephone museum about an hour from where I live that still has a working mechanical switch that you can dial on and see it working.
The term Page-Turner is often misapplied. I rarely find any books genuine page-turners.
The Cuckoo's Egg is the exception. Such a fantastically well-written book! Thanks Cliff!
Damn, has it really been 40 years. I remember chatting with Cliff about the book on USENET. I'm glad time has been kind to us.
Usenet? Now you're making me feel old.
the story really comes full circle for me now. i've read the book in the 90s and recently listened to hess's POV via a ccc talk (https://youtu.be/USDNMWZsR5o auto subbed/dubbed video here)
great nostalgia for when the internet was still amazing
A thoroughly enjoyable watch - he's a natural disrupter. It is a reminder to focus on principles rather than any latest fashion. It is quite refreshing in the current AI torrent.
Stoll is still the best storyteller in security. 40 years and this holds up perfectly.
A friend put me onto The Cuckoo's Egg, and that's where I first met Cliff. And honestly, half the protagonists in hacker fiction can't hold a candle to him.
Fantastic book, great story, awesome memories. Thank you, Cliff.
My smiles back to you, Mich. From a long time ago, when the world was young, and continents hadn’t drifted apart.
Such a fun and enthusiastic guy. I’ve one of his klein bottles from like 20 years ago, think he still sells them.
You know, it just occured to me that technically we're all inside all of his Klein bottles. Or all Klein bottles, really.
I just bought one a few months ago after putting it off for years. He sent the most charming hand written note and a series of selfies proving that he personally packed it! A true gem.
Those photos are for me as well, Chaser of Snow. Whenever I make a missteake, the pictures show what I did rongg.
And I celebrate every Klein Bottle order by walking around my backyard garden … puts me in the right mood.
Cheers, Cliff
I love that he’s still doing that - he did the same thing back then: selfies, lots of fun little notes on the packaging, stories about taking the package by bicycle to the nearest post office, and even assurances about his neighborhood’s political leanings (overwhelmingly anti-Bush).
Same politics today, Rat of Pi. Bay Area bubble. Cheers, -C
I got one from him a couple of years ago. He even sent me photos while packing and shipping, and a handwritten note along with the bottle. An absolute stand-up guy.
It used to be common to leave voicemail for him from conference bridges ("cl1ff st0le muh k0d3z"). His greeting said something like "I'm not here right now; I'm baking cookies".
@CliffStoll Even though I wasn't the perpetrator of said voicemail, apologies on behalf of all the kids who annoyed you just because they could.
His book was so good. Real agent stuff!
This was great. Thanks for sharing.
Cliff Stoll is alive? Good news.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48037336
"Rumors of my death are slightly exaggerated | 1676 points by CliffStoll 3 months ago | 260 comments"
Yup. He hangs out here[0], as well.
Occasionally.
I bought this person's book too. I didn't know they were still alive. I really enjoyed reading The Cuckoo's Egg—it was such a fun read. They really have a way with words
Did he really break the screen on someone's phone during the talk? He seems dangerous to be around.
One of the goons put a phone showing a timer on stage, hoping it might help keep me on time. Alas its screensaver kicked in, and I figured that the dead screen was my fault.
Note to myself: Next talk, bring analog clock. Old darkroom timer.
Cheers, Cliff
why does it seems dangerous to you?
I actually immensely appreciated the way he is totally human, didn't even had to go beyond the stage behaviour because I believe that's the marvellous part!
It's a whole thing, the whole experience, the whole Him being himself, beauty and art mixed together in real cyberspace.
And probably exhausting. Good talk nonetheless.
Great