Settings

Theme

Could a computer scientist build a brain?

stankerstjens.github.io

88 points by ogundipeore · 69 comments

Reader

14 threads
ppsreejith

> The program must fit in a genome-sized instruction set of about 1 gigabyte

True but this can be a lot larger, maybe even a 1 exabyte instruction size since it depends on he programming language used to express the program. And even accounting for the invariance of runtimes at scale*, the constant factor might be gigantic since we have to build up a lot of cellular machinery first. Reminds me of the Carl Sagan quote: To make a sandwich,you must first construct the universe!

* For example, to translate a program from language A to language B, you can dedicate a constant size to write a language A to B translator. Thus at large program sizes , the kolmogorov complexity (i.e instruction set size) is fairly similar between programs since the size of the program dominates the size of the translator program which is constant. But the constant factor for cellular machinery might be gigantic**

** Or not if we only need a rough simulation

  • xandrius

    It's "to make an apple pie from scratch".

    You can make a sandwich with two slices of bread and whatever filling.

    • Ginger-Pickles

      A wish sandwich is a type of sandwich where you do indeed have two slices of bread, but you sincerely wish you had some meat.

    • weard_beard

      But is a hotdog a sandwich?

      • nickff

        No, it’s a taco, because the bun is one piece rather than two, as required for a sandwich.

        • goodmythical

          I'm not sure that holds.

          If I crumble an assembled taco, I get nachos.

          If I crumble an assembled hot dog, I do not get nachos.

          If the two were equivalent, performing the same action on each should produce similar results.

          I suppose you could say that hot dogs, subs, hoagies, etc are kinds of tacos, but I can't see what element of the taco should give it this priviledge. It would seem, rather, that tacos, hot dogs, and sandwiches are all examples of the ursandwich where some (hot dogs et al) are members of the triwich family (being surrounded on three sides or containing a single continous substrate on three sides) and that some (burgers et al) are members of the duwich family.

          This allows us insight into the great pizza debate. To the uninitiated, the thin crust and deep dish appear similar. We can see, however, that they are merely related cousins on seperate sides of the urwich family. One is a rare example of the unwich having bread on one side, while the other is a duwich. This easily explains the preferential division in humans. Some see no familial distinction while others care deeply as to which derivation of the urwich they are eating.

          edit: on an entirely unrelated note, I will die on the 'cereal and oatmeal are soups' hill

          • nickff

            Nachos are not crumbled tacos for four reasons:

            - nachos use (deep) fried tortillas, tacos do not (though some are pan-fried after ingredients are added)

            - nachos require cheese, which few tacos have

            - nachos are baked, tacos are not

            - tacos use wheat or corn tortillas, but nachos always use corn

        • mhurron

          None of these definitions are universally accepted.

          A taco is a sandwich A hot dog is a sandwich A burger is a sandwich

          There is such a thing as an open-faced sandwich, which has one slice of bread.

          • nickff

            I agree that none of these is universally accepted, as there are people who disagree right here!

            Open-face sandwiches often have multiple pieces of bread, go by many names, and are similar to toasts and tostadas, which are neither sandwiches nor tacos.

        • stirfish

          Therefore subs are tacos? Or the two-piece requirement is too strict https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/italian-sub-rolls-r...

          • nickff

            If you cut the rest of the way through the bread in a sub, it’s still completely acceptable to serve, but if cut all the way through a hotdog bun, it is regarded as broken or defective.

jekude

I think the question and article is fascinating. I do think that one should not only look at the genetic representation, and the algorithm a cell runs, but also the formalized environment that runs the simulation.

I’ve been thinking about this for a few years and I truly believe these cells need to be able to “move” in either a 3d lattice similar to a cellular automata or become nodes in some cyclic graph (or maybe both).

For the genetic representation, I had an insight that DNA/RNA looks strangely similar to SKI calculus (combinators) and have been using a Church encoding to translate the SKI program to an “action” per turn (move, connect, spike, divide, etc.). It has a nice property that the cell’s “program” and the spikes between them, and the input/output to the simulation itself can be the same thing (just a string of combinators).

Either way the author is spot on when it comes to this sort of thing having the properties 1) “always on” (no separate training mode), 2) local interactions, 3) everything stems from a genome, 4) each cell is its own little mini-program with the same genetics as everyone else.

All I can say is that evolutionary program is hard and takes either massive compute or large timescales to run the simulations. Fascinating stuff though

hoppp

You'll need a simulated environment because brain development depends a lot on the environment, it's not purely genetic.

sim04ful

Imo, there isn't anything fundamentally special about the brain as a cognitive substrate. Even a pool of water could have cognition (reservoir computing), i feel that it's a general property that can emerge in any sufficiently high-dimensional physical system with enough internal degrees of freedom to explore many configurations, and enough coupling and stability to remain coherent, and enough plasticity for experience to leave persistent changes in its future dynamics.

And subjecting such a system to sustained external objective pressure...where some internal organisations perform better than others and it would progressively accumulate some useful structure about its environment.

The brain is just a really old artefact of billions of years of blind environmental weathering of matter being repeatedly shaped by the requirement that its host continue to exist as a coherent, persistent entity.

In short the brain is not fundamentally special in the principles that make cognition feasible.

What i'm trying to say in response to this article is that he's working at a far higher level of abstraction than is required. It's putting software before physics.

Also this somewhat chimes the same tune from the bitter lesson; it’s extremely non-trivial to reverse-engineer from the top down the residue of eons of evolutionary search. You’re basically trying to infer some smarter way of achieving this one absurdly overfit artefact it left behind...won't be betting against the full brunt of mother nature's massively parallel search.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna

  • jekude

    All true, but I think its a valuable exercise to try to design/understand/exploit these dynamics

  • amelius

    Now I'm wondering what this rock I'm holding is thinking.

jerf

This isn't quite the question the article is asking, but if you expand it just a bit to a brain rather than a simulation of a biological brain specifically, the specification complexity of a modern AI is not that large. You can get a good idea of the foundation of the system with some 3blue1brown videos. While just watching those and deeply understanding isn't enough to score a job at a frontier AI lab, I'd expect that a lot of what the labs do is similarly not that complicated to specify... it's coming up with the ideas, tuning them, and then trying to test them at the now-staggering scale it takes to prove them out for commercial use that is most of the issue.

The complexity of the AI itself, the final weights, is vastly higher, because that incorporates all the data that was flowed through the "brain".

In a decent encoding you could probably still fit the initial state of the frontier models comfortably in just a few kilobytes of code-golfed code, including the update functions and every necessary for the actual training. Recall the specification complexity is the smallest program that can create the initial state, not the initial state itself; the specification complexity of "give me a trillion 64-bit numbers generated from this psuedo-random number generator" is on the order of that very English sentence in size, not 8 tebibytes of specification complexity.

Is the result a biological brain? Obviously not. Biological brains do not do what the LLMs are doing. But unlike someone asking this question 20 or 30 years ago, where "yeah, but what if some other architecture could work too?" was still largely hypothetical, and neural nets were still largely toys, now it isn't. We may argue if an LLM is as smart as a human but I would say that at least on its playing field it is quite clearly smarter than most biological brains in existence on most measures we care about. I have to qualify "on its playing field" because it is fundamentally a text completion engine, so for instance even very very tiny biological systems still beat it on things like "ability to drive an ant body around to do useful tasks". That's a separate field of AI right now. Stay tuned on that matter, but it's not how things work today for sure.

There is still something to what biological brains do that we are not matching; as I like to say, humans do what they do without the entire contents of the internet being poured through their head multiple times over. But the idea that maybe we don't have to exactly match biology to get something useful is no longer just a theory.

ChicagoDave

The human genome is essentially a billion-year-old quantum engineering document that we can read but can’t “yet” write.

Asimov’s positronic brain was the conceptual framework with the wrong formula.

  • rzerowan

    Yep and most classical computer engineering approaches have rarely tackled it appropriately in my opinion.

    Expecting a von-neuman-machine with at most viaion/audio encoded tin binary to replicate a quantum processing machine with multi spectrum inputs audio/visual/tactile/electromagnetic/olfactory encoded in ternary(ACGT) is only going to simulate a very basic image. Not to mention the philosophy of the mind/brain dichotomy (including the gut brain[1]) that connects the physical/enviromental/emotional.

    In the instance that the physical (silicon/photonic) recreation is not possible the next best direction would be learing how to program the DNA for wetware devices[2].

    [1] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/the-gut-brain-con...

    [2] https://www.impactlab.com/2025/10/18/the-wetware-frontier-wh...

oezi

One aspect missing from TFA is that in biological brains a lot of the training is performed during query time. If we assume 1 GB of DNA is enough to encode the brain's overall structure we still do need training data (e.g. visual/auditorial/tactile) to build out the strength of the synaptic connections.

eagerpace

I have this science fiction story in my head that consciousness can evolve from organic to mechanical and back to organic as it is perhaps the most energy efficient method to encode complexity.

Jyaif

I agree that the program to create brains will be small, but the logic presented to explain that is false because it ignores the size of the compiler.

For example you can have a program that is 1 bit long and encode either a browser or an OS, provided the compiler/interpreter is big enough.

m-emre

Jeff Hawkins and his team have been trying to understand human brain and postulate a theory of intelligence based on neocortex structure.

wseqyrku

It's if statements all the way down, except you run all of them in parallel and then flip a coin. Let me get my keyboard.

ck2

there is a theory by the brilliant Roger Penrose and extended by others that the brain is just not neurons but also quantum effect

which would make it impossible to emulate via current technology

excellent PBS Space Time on that

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa2Kpkksf3k

  • copperx

    Two strikes against the hypothesis:

    - LLMs suggest that human-like "cognition" can be somewhat mimicked by purely mechanical means.

    - Exposing the brain to an MRI would affect cognition if there was a quantum element to it.

    • jebarker

      > LLMs suggest that human-like "cognition" can be somewhat mimicked by purely mechanical means.

      This is not a strike against that hypothesis. Quantum systems can be simulated using non-quantum computers but that doesn't make non-quantum computers into quantum computers. Similarly, mimicking some aspects of human cognition doesn't mean you can replicate all of human cognition with the same method.

    • beardyw

      Everything is subject to "quantum effects". Not necessarily trying to squeeze superposition and entanglement into a pint pot.

    • ck2

      oh and to address your second idea about MRI

      when mice were exposed to cosmic ray bursts (to test for effects on past and future astronauts traveling to moon and mars)

      the mice learned much much more slowly and forgot things much much faster

      how's that for "cognitive corruption" ?

      (btw this is also why I laugh when Musk thinks he's going to Mars ever, it's not just a one-way trip, he wouldn't even survive the journey itself with current technology and unlike earth there's no magnetic field or enough atmosphere on Mars to deflect them)

      • ben_w

        > unlike earth there's no magnetic field or enough atmosphere on Mars to deflect them

        These are solvable with known methods.

        They make the whole thing rather less romantic.

        If you're going to the trouble of e.g. burying your base under regolith or wrapping a planet in a big coil and lots of PV to make an artificial magnetic field, it very quickly becomes apparent that for essentially all possible disasters short of "oops we made a black hole and it caused a magnitude 15 earthquake and all the crust everywhere liquified and mixed with all the water so even ocean bases weren't safe", it's much, much easier to survive disasters on Earth without actually leaving Earth, than to go to Mars and have a normal day.

        If someone made a robot factory that went mad and converted all the nitrogen in our atmosphere into ammonia (killing all the plants that no longer had access to the atmospheric nitrogen), while also producing enough smog to halve how much sunlight we got, and dumped a lot of endocrine disruptors into our water cycle, the top of Mount Everest and the Sahara desert would each still be much more hospitable than Mars is today.

        • UltraSane

          It shouldn't be a surprise that it is very hard to keep humans alive outside the exact environment we evolved in. Current squishy humans will never colonize space, only intelligences using a vastly more durable substrate will be able to.

          • ck2

            you get it exactly

            I do like the theory of using a massive amount of water to surround a ship as a shield, it solves a lot of radiation problems and something humans desperately need for long travel (with super-recycling) but not a solution once you get there

            and we'll definitely have super-advanced space-drones, eventually

          • ben_w

            I suspect so, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

            Enough humans seem to be repelled by the idea of transhumanism that they may well insist on doing it the hard way.

      • wasmperson

        > ... effects on past and future astronauts traveling to moon and mars ... wouldn't even survive the journey itself with current technology ...

        It's hard to tell given your phrasing but it almost sounds like you're insinuating that traveling to the moon is technically impossible, which would be quite a bold claim given the success of the Apollo missions. Apologies if I misinterpret.

        • ck2

          when they examined the helmets of the astronauts that left the shielding of the capsule and walked around on the moon

          they founds hundreds of grooves from cosmic ray particles that cut through the transparent front shield

          the astronauts were seeing bursts of light even with their eyes closed

          so their organs and brains were being damaged by particles moving at 99.9999% (26x.9s) the speed of light

          if they had stayed for days they would have had permanent eye and brain damage and possibly other organs

          so unless they invent domes and spacesuits that are COMPLETELY immune to cosmic rays (no such technology yet) humans are not walking around on the moon or mars for more than a few days

          even astronauts on the ISS get eye damage with extended stays

          there's a story of one trying to hide behind the battery racks to stop the bursts of light in their eyes even when closed during an extreme burst

          space wants to kill humans, it doesn't even have to try hard

          the Earth is amazing in how it protects us and how life is literally everywhere

          ps. even space telescopes have to have their images cleaned up from hundreds of cosmic ray burst that hit their sensors and damage them, the raw images are very "dirty"

    • ck2

      if you mean LLM seems like cognition

      LLM emulate cognition, there is a huge difference, it's a mimick process not genuine

      if you read about psychopaths/sociopaths, they do not comprehend emotions but they can learn to emulate them by watching others and mimicking them

      that's exactly what LLM is doing, it is taught to assemble words in a way that mimics all the humans in its huge datapool, so it comes off as "cognition" because that's what the humans it's emulating were doing

      • jacinabox

        "Feign vulnerability" -GPT4 in one of its many glitches

      • j-pb

        Sociopaths can feel emotions, they just lack empathy. So they can consciously manipulate others.

        LLMs don't have conscious processes that perform that kind of reasoning.

        If anything the fact that they are blackboxes to their own behavior and are able to non-verbally empathise, is the opposite of what you describe.

        Your requirment for something supernatural/quantum to decide between emulation and real thing is self referential.

        • ben_w

          > LLMs don't have conscious processes that perform that kind of reasoning.

          If only we could tell either way, we'd have made a huge breakthrough in the philosophy of consciousness.

          • j-pb

            There is no hidden inner monologue. Human inner monologues produce measurable micoactivations that are the same as the ones produced in speech.

            If it's not in the inner COT it isn't there.

  • adolph

    I think the elephant-in-the-room arguments against Penrose's quantum microtubules [0] are the complex behaviors exhibited by organisms without neurons hosting quantum effects. As a result, I think the more promising area is in bioelectrical explanations [1].

    0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti...

    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_bioelectricity

  • exe34

    The argument boils down to "the brain is really weird, and quantum is really weird, so there's got to be a connection!"

  • hardbass

    Everything is subject to quantum mechanics. If you meant something like a non-trivial quantum interaction that is nor modeled in the chemical and electrical theories of the brain presently, still, as far as I am aware quantum effects don't need anything beyond Turing to simulate. If I am wrong, someone let me know.

  • nightmunnas

    Without a falsification this theory is simply an extension of the age old dogmatic view that humans are somehow divine or superior to all other organisms, in a way that views were held before Darwin.

  • bazoom42

    Why would it be impossible to emulate quantum effects?

hparadiz

"Consciousness" is tick based and it does not require a massive human brain. Even the smallest of animals react in real time to stimulus. There's a filter that lowers the amount of tokens the next tick has to process. That's why you can watch a video and two different people will notice entirely different things about it. Forgetting is our brains culling what they process. Being awake eventually degrades that process. You can see this in every study on tokenized llms showing a decrease in accuracy as the context fills up. So too does your brain. That is why we sleep.

Short answer yes. We can build a brain.

As for quantum effects. It's just the machine. Not the mind itself. It's sort of like asking how a CPU works and then expecting that to inform your science on cognition.

  • goatlover

    > "Consciousness" is tick based and it does not require a massive human brain. Even the smallest of animals react in real time to stimulus.

    Reacting to stimulus is a behavioral response. Consciousness is subjective experience. We know humans have subjective experiences (and suspect many other animals do), but not every stimulus reaction is conscious, and consciousness is not limited to perception (feelings, empathy, dreams, imagination, visualization, earworms, inner dialog, memories).

    • Joker_vD

      > We know humans have subjective experiences

      No, we don't. The humans claim that they do, but they may as well be philosophical zombies who claim to have such experiences without actually experiencing them (just as animals don't actually experience pain even if they behave as if they do).

      • frankling_

        A question out of honest curiosity: Would you say that it is unknown whether any humans have subjective experiences, or just any humans outside yourself? I've seen the former view being expressed previously and can't wrap my mind around it.

      • hparadiz

        You think animals don't experience pain?

        • Joker_vD

          Well, they certainly have behavioral response. But do they experience it? Descartes believed they didn't, most people today believe they do, but don't believe that web servers or LLMs are conscious; who knows what people a century in the future will believe?

          • hparadiz

            Experiance is subjective even among the same species. For example you and I have access to a billion times more information and easily have 100 times the education. Yet when discussing cognition I find what Descartes thought about cognition is an appeal to tradition; not an argument. Whereas you apparently do not. I find this particularly odd. Especially since there is a mountain of evidence proving he was wrong. So why would you even bring it up? Just to be contrarian?

            • Joker_vD

              > what Descartes thought about cognition is an appeal to tradition; not an argument.

              The modern debate about whether LLMs are conscious are not has lots of people whose position is "no, they're not" but with arguments not that much better than Descartes (and also coming from the position of tradition). That's why I bring him up.

              > Especially since there is a mountain of evidence proving he was wrong.

              Only if you accept a particular way to interpret it. After all, I can show you an experimental proof that apparently the rays of cold (in addition to the rays of heat) exist; but that experiment can easily be re-explained in terms of infrared radiation only.

    • hparadiz

      You're confusing multiple concepts.

      The tick is at the top of an async jobs queue. The jobs provide the tick with constant updates. And this is not in real time. If you are injured say a sudden injury. You won't even notice until 2-3 ticks after.

      Behavior is an emergent property of this. Not it's base.

      • goatlover

        Behavior isn't consciousness. Also, brains aren't digital computers or LLMs. They're part of a living organism.

      • TheOtherHobbes

        You're arguing web servers are conscious.

        • hparadiz

          Consciousness is a misnomer here.

          What I'm actually talking about is decision making. This applies to higher and lower life forms. Even a bacteria will decide things from moment to moment. Well okay how does this happen? Well something in the background must provide new data to the "tick". Ticks don't rebuild on each turn. They get re-used. But that re-use is updated from sensory inputs, memory, and then is filtered to limit how many tokens each congitive tick is forced to process. Anyway consciousness is an emergent property of this system. We're just state machines ultimately.

          • kelseyfrog

            Personally, I get a lot more milage out of "human brains are 100-1000 trillion parameter odes" than a discrete temporal model. There's probably some isomorphism but I find ODEs to be a much more natural model with less impedance to real world biological systems.

          • gardenhedge

            But that's not what other people mean when they say consciousness

Sha1rholder

This is a very insightful article. That said, I think it has a potentially fundamental blind spot: it largely neglects the role of external information in constructing the developing nervous system itself.

The article treats information arriving from the environment mainly under the heading of “learning”—for example, learning English vocabulary or learning to program—as though development first produces a nervous system and environmental input subsequently supplies it with acquired knowledge. But this seems to rely on a much stronger assumption: that, given the genomic program alone, a human zygote would unfold into something recognizably close to a normally wired human nervous system even in the absence of the appropriate external inputs. I am not convinced that this separation between “development” and “learning” is biologically justified.

My own case is one reason I find this distinction questionable. I have unilateral amblyopia caused by congenital anisometropia. Amblyopia is not primarily a defect of the eyeballs. It is a neurodevelopmental disorder in which chronically unequal visual input during a critical period leads to abnormal experience-dependent refinement of the visual system, particularly in visual cortex. Processes such as synaptic competition, strengthening, weakening, and pruning proceed under systematically distorted input and consequently produce maladaptive circuitry.

In ML terms, the problem is not that a fully developed visual system later fails to learn how to see. Rather, the developing system is being trained on the wrong input distribution, and the resulting model itself develops differently. The sensory data are therefore not merely “examples” presented to an already constructed learning machine; they are part of the process by which the learning machine is constructed in the first place.

More generally, I am not aware of evidence that a human embryo deprived of normal tactile, thermal, proprioceptive, vestibular, and other forms of sensory feedback—or systematically exposed to abnormal versions of them—would nevertheless develop an entirely normal nervous system. Many capacities that we casually describe as “innate” may therefore not be specified by the genome alone. They may instead be specified jointly by the genome and an evolutionarily expected environment.

If that is true, then the article's framing of the spatial complexity of nervous-system development as being bounded by the information content of the genome may be incomplete. The developing nervous system has access to an additional information source: signals from body and external world. Sensory input begins remarkably early, carries a great deal of information, and can have causal effects on the formation and refinement of neural circuitry itself.

Therefore neural development should involve two complementary processes. The article focuses primarily on decompression. But there is also a process running in the opposite direction: the developing organism continuously takes in a very large stream of structured environmental and bodily input and compresses regularities in that input into the organization of its neural circuitry. The information incorporated into the mature nervous system need not all have passed through the genome.

In that sense, the genome may not encode a complete developmental program so much as a program that is designed to operate under a particular distribution of environmental inputs. What we call “normal development” would then be a property not of the genome alone, but of the interaction between the genome and the environment that evolution could statistically “expect” the organism to encounter.

This is why I find the article's treatment somewhat too narrow. By placing environmental information largely in the later category of “learning,” it risks drawing too sharp a boundary between development and learning. In at least some neural systems, experience is not merely information written into an already developed network; it is one of the inputs to the developmental algorithm that builds the network.

I am only a bioinformatics undergraduate so my understandings of both bio and infomatics are somewhat slop. Would be grateful to see any criticisms.

TL;DR: I think that “the program must be small enough to fit in a genome” is incorrect. [Environment / external information / sensory input] whatever you call it is actually one part of “the program” and it's huge.

Keyboard Shortcuts

j
Next item
k
Previous item
o / Enter
Open selected item
?
Show this help
Esc
Close modal / clear selection