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Linux 7.1

lore.kernel.org

323 points by berlianta · 136 comments

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TacticalCoder

> Linux 7.1 is also notable for its code removals. Driven by AI-assisted bug reporting, ISDN and other old network driver code was removed to avoid that influx of bug reporting against those very rarely touched or used drivers for obsolete hardware.

Moving really old and unused code out of the kernel just to get less AI-assisted bug reports is IMO one of the best consequence ever of AI.

I love it.

We should start trimming the fat out of everything.

  • SoftTalker

    This is the sort of thinking that had organizations buying all new desktops because the perfectly working ones they had won't run Windows 11.

    I have 10 year old servers I'm still using because they run fine with linux.

    • nine_k

      The old unmaintained ISDN hardware for which the code has been removed is likely 20 years old, or so. The perfectly good laptops are usually 3-4 times younger.

    • bitfilped

      FreeBSD and NetBSD aren't going anywhere and can be used for older hardware, for the amount of production and load bearing use Linux sees there's an enormous amount of cruft and garbage in it.

    • echelon

      That's good for your personal computing, but a renewing forest fire is good for all sorts of organizations. And species. It's a very good algorithm to run.

      It's naturally de-ossifying and forces uptake of new methods and practices.

      It gives you an opportunity to question assumptions and do things greenfield again.

  • linsomniac

    >We should start trimming the fat out of everything.

    "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

    One of my buddies was infamous for a while for being the "I deleted X lines of code today" guy.

    • jamesfinlayson

      I remember working with a guy who apparently deleted more code than he added in his time at the company. I think it said more about the codebase than anything but it was good that someone was trying to make it better.

      • darnir

        Funnily, I have been that guy at the last 3 places I've worked at. Every place has some amount of cruft code, and I love sniffing it out and deleting it.

    • space_ghost

      >"Perfection is achieved..."

      I, too, am a fan of RFC 1925.

  • philodeon

    I’ve tried to submit code that removed old drivers from the kernel build in some distros, and they were universally rejected.

    Everyone is afraid of breaking users until Torvalds says it’s ok.

  • fn-mote

    > Moving really old and unused code out of the kernel just to get less AI-assisted bug reports

    Obviously, the parent is /s, but when I read this, I thought Linux was removing exploit paths that exercise rarely-used features.

    On phone OSes at least, quirky rare formats and features are (were?) a common source of exploitable bugs.

    • asgraham

      Is the parent really being sarcastic? I read it as genuine.

      There’s presumably plenty of code bloat in the kernel, and while no human would ever scan for bugs in a corner of the kernel that hasn’t been used or touched in decades, AI 100% will. And while those bug reports might be useless as bug reports, they seem promising as “why is this code even here?” flags.

      • dormento

        I don't mean to be harsh, but if there's a codepath that is exercised on your hardware, but not on mine, I don't think it would be fair for me to deem it as "bloat". There are a TON of supported devices and use cases that are not my own, but are essential to someone else.

        • WD-42

          If you are still using ISDN you could maintain a fork.

          This is one of the main examples of drivers that were removed.

        • asgraham

          Sure, sure. I’m not arguing for removing drivers for uncommon devices, or even rare devices. But there’s a line somewhere. Maybe it’s at “devices that no longer exist.” But I think it’s somewhere before that. And I have no idea how you’d figure out which devices fall where around this hypothetical line. I can only hope that they had good justification for these removals.

        • franktankbank

          Maybe that points to an architecture issue? Is kernel driver support general enough to support all hardware in theory? If so it should be on hardware to provide a compatible api IMO. Note: I really have no experience in any of this there is probably more important things to consider like security/control or something.

    • rixed

      Exploit paths in unloaded modules, I guess.

  • _carbyau_

    > very rarely touched or used drivers for obsolete hardware

    I guess end users can not upgrade but a definition of obsolete would be nice.

    To me, every HP printer ever is obsolete. But I assume someone else has an equally valid and different opinion. How does that go with computer hardware?

  • knorker

    Code is liability. AI just made it harder to ignore.

  • conorcleary

    Chesterton's Fence...

    • zamadatix

      Chesterton's Fence only says to learn why the fence was erected, it gives no other guidance on what to do after that. There isn't too much mystery in why a device driver was made, so Chesterton's Fence yields next to nothing here.

    • speed_spread

      It's ok, you can let go of Chesterton's ISDN phone pole now. Come, we have cable, we have fiber. Just for you, I'll even fire up a little hotspot from the palm of my hand as we walk away.

  • 1over137

    How about we stop adding the fat in the first place. cough. electron. cough.

    • fhdkweig

      Presumably that old code was actually useful at the time it was added. It might not be used now, but it helped someone back then. One of the great things about early Linux was that it tried to run on every piece of hardware available. If Linus only wrote drivers (or allowed others to submit drivers) that worked on his personal computer, Linux would have never flourished this far.

samhclark

Personally, I'm pretty excited for this commit which fixes the slow WiFi I've had with the combination of my ISP's modem/router and my laptop.

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/711a9c018ad252b2807...

Hope it gets to Fedora soon!

globular-toast

Is there anything particularly interesting about this? The first number of the version changes when the second number gets too big, not for any other reason.

smetannik

Looking forward for a new NTFS driver to try. I hope this new iteration will be better than ntfs3 from Paragon.

  • bubblethink

    What is lacking in the previous one? NTFS support in linux is mostly to read and write files from windows disks, right? I think all the NTFS linux drivers - even the fuse one before the Paragon one - have been alright at that.

    • aero_code

      Ubuntu switched to the Paragon NTFS driver by default. When I upgraded to kernel 6.5 (I think) from Ubuntu, I started getting frequent kernel panics, like every day. Soon, I noticed that I couldn't even compile a Rust project on an NTFS partition because the compiler was getting random file system errors, and compiling was at high risk of causing a kernel panic. The NTFS driver in that kernel version is just totally broken. I switched to the FUSE NTFS-3G, and then I stopped getting panics and can compile stuff again no problem.

      Looking at kernel commits, it looks like the driver may have been fixed since, but I'm scared to use it after it had such major brokenness in that version.

    • jchw

      It wound up being OK, but it had a long span of time where it was virtually unmaintained and turned out to be buggy at points. The newer NTFS driver is based off of the old read-only NTFS driver which subjectively many claim is cleaner (I honestly haven't done a head to head so idk) and they're having an easier time modernizing it with support for things like large folios. Seems like a good deal to me.

      Personally: I used NTFS3 and it was alright. If anything the biggest thing I got hit by was an issue where the udisks2 mount call from Dolphin would result in NTFS-3g specific flags getting sent to it, causing the mount to fail. But in actual usage it actually worked just fine for me.

    • xattt

      The Paragon v3 NTFS driver was in perpetual beta with a scary warning about data loss whenever it was enabled.

      I think users moved on when they saw no real harm in continuing to use it.

  • joecool1029

    It’s good. I packaged it in my gentoo overlay and have been using it for a couple months, none of the weird issues ntfs3 had.

GreenSalem

Current default for Arch is 7.0.10

Looking forward to 7.1 rolling out soon.

nurettin

Looking back, I wonder what really changed over 25 years for the linux ecosystem. We had lots of distros, there were games built for linux (I remember playing the entire Neverwinter nights on debian) there was wine for StarCraft broodwars, x11+compiz for cool accelerated desktop graphics, proprietary Nvidia drivers were always there. Sure, everything was 32bit but it was good enough for desktop, and amd64 was about to pop.

The other day I tried to install fedora 44 on a friend's computer. He wanted kde so we set that up and whoops, no way to start programs on the discrete video card. I hacked around it by starting xorg, setting an alias and environment variables, but it was a bit embarrassing to see that things have regressed.

Y-bar

Did anyone see an anime avatar flash by for a fraction of a second before the content loaded? What was that?

  • konart

    Anubis: https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis

    blog post (pretty sure I've seen it on HN before) on the topic:

    https://lock.cmpxchg8b.com/anubis.html

    • anonymous908213

      But not a very accurate blogpost. "Here's why this literally cannot work (in theory)" to denigrate a system that actually works (in practice). Their goal is to convince people to stop using it because it personally inconveniences them, but they never provide an alternative solution that actually solves the problem (in practice) that Anubis actually solves (in practice). If leaving the problem unsolved (in practice) was a desirable option, the site owner would not have turned to Anubis in the first place.

      • yunwal

        I'm totally out of the loop here, where's the evidence that this works in practice?

        • patchtopic

          before and after apache logs showing much less crap in them from bots. Do you think the maintainers of https://lore.kernel.org/ would leave something in that didn't work? It isn't perfect but I have run it on a (much smaller) web site getting hammered by bots and logged "before" and "after" and the difference is measurable.

        • chlorion

          Its literally trivially objectively measurable, this isn't something that is based in opinion.

          You can throw it up on your own website and simply grep the logs if you don't trust it, or look for the analysis reports from people who have done exactly that.

          Like the other commenter said, why would linux.org deploy and leave deployed a technology that did nothing? Do they just enjoy trolling users? I doubt it.

  • notafox

    uBlock Origin filter to block the anime girl from loading:

      ! Title: Hide Anubis Image
      */.within.website/x/cmd/anubis/static/img/*.webp$image
    
    (c) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46310941
    • HeckFeck

      Aw, but what have you against kawaii?

      • saltamimi

        For me, it's a personal preference and in my opinion, it's less professional.

        • p_l

          Places that want to use Anubis but find the logo not professional enough are free to pay the author, IIRC it was major "professional support" benefit :D

        • lukeify

          People always seem surprised when someone in CS or SWE doesn't care for anime or cutesy pictorial graphics of girls.

          • anonymous908213

            It's mostly surprising how many grown adult men go into a blind rage when confronted with a picture of a cartoon woman. In a lobsters thread about Anubis, a community member of 12 years got themselves permanently banned because they were frothing at the mouth with accusations of pedophilia against the developer and refused to apologise when given an opportunity by moderators. Telling on themselves, perhaps? It's funny, in a bizarre way, that this is a hill people will die on.

            • simoncion

              > ...they were frothing at the mouth with accusations of pedophilia against the developer...

              I think I remember that thread. IIRC, it went something very, very roughly like this:

                Future banned user: It weirds me out a bit how young the mascot looks. I've never been comfortable with cutesy, underage-looking mascots.
                
                The dogpile: How dare you insinuate that the dev a pedophile? Don't you know how anti-trans that dogwhistle is?
              
              and the conversation degraded from there.

              I'll also note that you chipped in with

              > It's mostly surprising how many grown adult men go into a blind rage when confronted with a picture of a cartoon woman.

              when -AFAICT- noone in this subthread expressed anything more heated than "dislike of kawaii". But perhaps you were speaking more generally, and weren't inspired by any conversation that happened in this subthread.

          • dormento

            It also serves as a sort of "chud defense", in a way.

            I like it.

            • DaSHacka

              If anything, its the opposite, going by the number of users with anime girl pfps on Twitter and other social media posting slurs and bigotry.

              It's moreso only a loose indicator the user is between the ages of 14-30, if anything.

          • TiredOfLife

            For some reason it's always underage girls.

        • tempest_

          If you don't want the anime girl pay for the support, otherwise you get the anime jackal. Seems like a fair deal to me.

        • john_strinlai

          everyone knows that penguins are much more professional

      • Caracas288

        its the only weakness of the corpo-capitalist gestalt!

  • Hackbraten

    That’s Anubis. [0]

    [0]: https://anubis.techaro.lol

  • Shellban

    It is a way to block bots, similarly to Cloudflare or Google's captcha. The Arch Linux website uses it.

  • bzzzt

    Anubis bot protection: https://anubis.techaro.lol

imoverclocked

Breaking: Linus is on travel.

Did I miss something about this or is it just another number?

  • dimiprasakis

    - "Anyway, possible slight hiccups in the merge window aside, the news today is 7.1." - "nothing particularly interesting or scary stands out, which is as it should be."

    So, a number.

    • megous

      He's just writing about the changes since last week. Not about 7.1 as a whole. No last minute scary things means 7.1 released as planned.

      But 7.1 new features can still be exciting.

  • dietr1ch

    Yeah, it gets boring when the number change doesn't change and try improving everything at once, but the great thing is that freshness improves driven by number fomo and that tightens the improvement loop.

    Exciting and risky things are always under flags, so if you really care you just build, configure, and bench your own kernel+system.

  • bombcar

    Surprised nobody will spring for the inflight WiFi for Linus. Has to be some of the best return per dollar that could be spent!

johnnytech

My favroite kernel version is 6.1.34. Traditional framebuffers for the win!

ares623

From 6 to 7

betimsl

what a legend!

drake99

how many new code came from AI ?

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