Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching
mpi.nlAs a Sicilian and university computer science lecturer, I can say that hand gestures are my primary way of communicating concepts.
So much so that the old joke holds true. How do you stop an Italian from talking? Tell them to sit on their hands.
I am Italian as well and love the joke, but it always makes it sound like any other culture doesn’t use their hands to convey meaning, which is obviously false. I do not notice a large difference between a northern Italian like me and any other American speaker, for instance.
Of course there will be a noticeable increase in gesticulation in an angry southern Italian person compared to a mild-mannered Englishman droning about philosophy.
Perhaps the difference lies not in the amount of gesturing, but in the heightened emotions of us southern Europeans.
> Of course there will be a noticeable increase in gesticulation in an angry southern Italian person compared to a mild-mannered Englishman droning about philosophy.
> Perhaps the difference lies not in the amount of gesturing, but in the heightened emotions of us southern Europeans.
As someone that has familial ties to both England and Sicily, although people on average are more overtly expressive in Southern Europe, the English are certainly not a monolith. For every "mild-mannered Englishman" there's also an equal amount of very "expressive" people, for example the meme of English tourists being absolute menaces in Southern Europe (especially Spain) does not come from the "mild-mannered" crowd, and I'm sure there are people who put up with these tourists that wish they were less expressive than the locals.
Britons vacationing in Greece have to be among the least mild mannered people on earth.
Of course, it's the "hooligan effect", where the 2% paints a bad picture of the whole.
I mostly agree with you, even though I think "2%" is an understatement.
England is a very culturally diverse place, anyone that thinks that there's a great sense of social uniformity hasn't understood it that well.
No joke, as an Italian after reading your post I tried to explain something to my SO at lunch and it felt so unnatural, like being chained.
Doubly so with CS in the mix. IMO.
I only realized that dutch people are handful communicators when moving abroad. Apparently I do it unconsciously all the time.
For example we gesture when something tastes good and I don't even say "tastes good" out loud i just wave my hand next to my cheek. But quickly learnt that people think you're crazy in the head instead of complimenting the chef.
Eating only half a pepernoot and putting it back in the bowl is crazy behavior.
In this case the gesture is to not speak with a mouth full of food, which is understandable.
Also, she made the gesture twice without saying "mmmmm" while making it. Imo, that sound is part of the gesture.
Italians have a gesture for this as well, and it speaks for itself: nobody says "mmmm" while doing it.
I also learned in an awkward way that waving my hand next to my cheek isn't an international sign for lekker. I moved to Canada about 20 years ago, and still sometimes do it, but apparently here it means you're signaling that someone is a little bit crazy.
Needs the sound! Otherwise, even other Dutch people will look crazy at you. :)
Now I wonder if mixed Italian-Dutch children have two different forms of communication by gestures. Would be interesting, especially since neither are true sign languages.
Im Dutch and I still have fond memories of my matrix algebra professor doing that.
He would stand in front of class. Close his eyes. And draw two matrices in the air with his hands and continue to explain matrix multiplication like that. It was a bit funny to watch at the time. But it stuck with me, so I guess it worked.
I find there's a certain flavour of Scot that's quite gesticulative - I know that I'm one. My partner's Italian and I guess my gesticulation's ramped up since we've been together because when I watched footage from an event recently, I was borderline horrified at how wild my expressions and gesticulations were, especially as the person I was talking to (well 'at', seemingly) is an impressively English sort. Made for quite the contrast in manner.
I looked like I was trying to sell Guybrush Threepwood a sinking ship... .
Must be true. I have seen Dutch and Italian parents teaching their kids valuable social concepts with the exact same swift motion of an open hand.
Ha! Speaking a language that everyone understands.
when everything else fails...
There's a hypothesis that sign language evolved before vocal languages, and that the latter "took over" as the default because it's energetically much more efficient. There's lots of circumstantial evidence but of course it's impossible to ever conclusively prove. This feels like another data point in favor of it.
As stated, this is too vague to be much of a hypothesis. Animals, including humans, communicate multimodally, so gesture and vocalisation are not mutually exclusive evolutionary stages. To claim that one evolved before the other, you'd need to define some relevant markers, such as grammar, cultural transmission or some anatomical adaptation.
They stated in their comment that they can never have proof and it's a bit of persuasive whimsy. This is before writing.
I find it intuitively persuasive, others may differ, but if you're going to object then keep it on vibes as we all will never have evidence.
Well I wasn't about to spend hours looking up sources and details specifying this hypothesis. All I remember now is that it's one that's taken seriously.
often when I discuss very abstract complicated subjects I use hand gestures to "place" the interlocking concepts under discussion at different positions in front of me while talking, and as I talk I will then refer to these "virtual objects" via gestures as a way of referring back to the previous point where they were brought in and "positioned" in the discussion.
That's a thing in sign languages like ASL. You can establish a person, object, idea, timeline, etc. at a location in signing space, then refer back to it later by pointing. Sort of like spatial pronouns.
Hearing people do a looser version too. I constantly find myself putting abstract ideas "over here" and "over there", then gesturing back at those virtual objects later in the conversation.
Basically: pointing as pronouns.
Put-That-There (1980) was based on exactly this idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIn8p4_4CQ
>Put-That-There was a gestural interface created in the Architecture Machine Group in 1980.
Yeah, one of the cool things about sign languages that most people don't realize is that it's spatial, and that allows it to be more "parallel" compared to vocal languages because its "information channels" (e.g. two hands, facial expressions and "whole body language") can be placed side by side inside that space.
Of course spoken language also has multiple channels (e.g. tone and sound) but they still lack the spatial aspect.
Apparently, people who pick up sign language later in life commonly typically make what is known as a "split verb error", where they structure their signs sequentially like vocal languages when they should do those things simultaneously.
It was drilled into me since childhood that speaking with your hands is lacking "class". On a conscious level, I know not to judge people by something as superficial, but on subconscious level, if someone is swinging their hands in the air while talking to me: I don't want to talk to them. It's the same with being loud, or using stop words etc.
I haven't been to Italy, but this was a huge deal for me living in Israel. In Israel, it's a substantial cultural divide between descendants of Arab countries refugees and those coming from Europe. It's generally seen as "proper" to not use your hands. In the military, especially in basic training, that would probably send you doing pushups.
I live in the Netherlands for about five years now. To be honest, I didn't notice people talking with their hands... well, outside of the Middle East or North African immigrants. Also, I don't really have Dutch friends to the point that we'd spend enough time together for me to notice how and if they use their hands during a conversation. In more formal context, I don't see the Dutch doing that.
> but this was a huge deal for me living in Israel.
I lived in Israel my whole life and I don't remember ever encountering the notion that 'speaking with your hands is lacking "class"' or that ' It's generally seen as "proper" to not use your hands.'. I just looked and easily found two videos with Israel's Prime Minister where he used hand gestures while talking.
> In the military, especially in basic training, that would probably send you doing pushups.
No, I don't think so, why would it?
Here's about the Israeli PM, and why he's allowed not to wear a tie:
> One day, Netanyahu shows up to the Knesset not wearing a tie. The speaker then reminds him about the decorum, to which Netanyahu replies that the queen of England allowed him not to wear one. The speaker then inquires about the circumstances, to which Netanyahu replies that he didn't wear a tie to Buckingham either, and that the queen told him "perhaps back in Israel, you might not wear a tie, but you must remember to wear one here."
In other words, Netanyahu is, by no means an example of what anyone would consider to be "classy". He's not the worst example, but he certainly fits the stereotype of obnoxious, loud, poorly dressed and otherwise poorly mannered.
> No, I don't think so, why would it?
Absolutely. It's kind of ridiculous to watch a typical Israeli recruit struggle with it. There's a practical reason for it: you have to speak clearly when you are on comms, and nobody can you see swing your hands to explain yourself. But, military being military, this is just a rule that's applied to everyone. Another reason is that you have to stand at attention ("amod be dom matuakh") when you are talking to an officer. Again, this applies to basic training ("tironut") only, since during your regular service you rarely stand at attention in general, let alone when talking to an officer.
I was taught the same thing. In particular I kept being told that gesturing is an indication of a poor vocabulary. So I taught myself to never do it.
I do not mind gesturing itself done by other people, but I’ve found that it correlates a lot with violating my personal space. A lot of gesturing ends up being done right in front of my face, or just too close to my body in general. And that annoys me and makes me lose respect for the person doing that.
Must be horrible
Stop words are filler words?
um, uh, like, you know
It's not just gestures that are adapted; words are too. In the parts of Italy where I was born and raised, for example, adults used to adapt words to make them easier for children to pronounce. However, this practice has recently been discouraged by paediatricians because it can apparently hinder children’s later acquisition of standard language.
I watched a guy driving on the interstate, one hand holding his phone to his ear, the other hand gesturing wildly, zero hands on the wheel (a few years before there was any car available that could conceivably be even so much as lane following).
Priorities, people, priorities.
i hold the steering wheel with my knee all the time, and make reasonable corrections, curves on highways are pretty gentle. the key is to be disciplined about paying attention to the road ahead.
If you're on the phone gesturing wildly to communicate with someone who can't see you, by definition you're not being disciplined.
Having worked a lott with both Dutch and Italians, I can definitly recognise where this is coming from. That said, there most certainly are more differences. Imho if you would use AI to animate a dutch teacher with the gesticulation of the average italian teacher, people would not rate this average dutch teacher gesticulation but believable Dutch gesticulstion on the more 'energetic' end of the spectrum.
And here I was thinking that maybe there's something unique about Italians and Dutch way of explaining things to children... but this study was done only on Dutch and Italians. There were no other nationalities/cultures tested for comparison. Maybe if we tested all/most cultures we'd see the same patterns of using hands to explain things to children. Low signal.
They chose those two particular groups for a reason.
> "The two groups were chosen because previous research suggests Italians come from a more 'gesture-rich' culture, while Dutch speakers tend to use fewer representational gestures overall."
They took two very dissimilar groups when it comes to hand gestures.
I LOVE watching people's hands when they are talking, especially explaining. I like to imagine what "image" is in their head when they are making a particular gesture. It's quite fascinating.
An adjacent joke I heard:
Q: How do you get an Italian to shut up?
A: Tie their hands up.
I don't know. I know some older Dutch folks are more handsy, but the young'ins? Nah. The new generation of Dutch are less so.
It seems reasonable to expect that some behaviors transcend culture and go back to instinct (tho expectations often conflict with reality) which probably is not even human specific.
IIRC Konrad Lorenz pointed out in Solomon's Ring that rooks will exhibit "infantile behavior" when grooming in a mated couple which, well, humans do it when they cuddle too.
As an aside: my favorite italian gesture is "tasty" (put index on cheek and spin back and forth) which is only used by and for children. I'm on a lifelong mission to spread it everywhere.
The Dutch version of this is to wave at the cheek.
I am Dutch and moved to Canada about 20 years ago (my wife is Canadian). Imagine our first meal at my new in-laws, and me not speaking much French yet (we're in Quebec), and still wanting to show my appreciation for the meal...
jazz hand(s) !
> that some behaviors transcend culture and go back to instinct
My first thought was "is it only Italians and Dutch, or are the two the only groups they could cover with their given funding?".
> Here we ask whether, in a task where gestures are particularly useful—namely, spontaneous demonstration in which no real object is present—speakers of a high-gesture (Italian) and a low-gesture (Dutch) culture show similarities or differences in how they teach to adults versus children.
Correct but it doesn’t invalidate my question :)
I don't think these are special as in rare, but they are cool. Many countries have gestures for the same thing. In portugal you pick up the ear lobe with your index finger and thumb, stretch the other fingers and pull it a few times. It means tasty also. You may accompany it with saying "it's from here", as in the food "is from the earlobe" which means its good, but mostly its done silently.
The trick to training rocks is telling them to perform behaviors they're going to do anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG0FAKkaisg
Oh, rooks! I though you said rocks. Never mind!
Keeps the hands slap ready when focus wanders.
If I understand the article correctly, the Italians and the Dutch use the same hand gestures to explain to children the concepts of Pizza and Marijuana respectively.
I mean, they do go well together.