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Gnutella: A Protocol Outliving the World That Created It

rickcarlino.com

118 points by rickcarlino 4 days ago · 47 comments

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swax 2 hours ago

I did a client called Gnucleus back in the day, the original website is still up at https://gnucleus.org/ I also designed GWebCache with a friend in college (also the IRC caching before that was me, I'm sorry). I think in the end the cost/benefit of the Gnutella architecture wasn't there. Especially in privacy - too much of a liability exposing your machine to serve files and route traffic. Also the efficiency of search over the Gnutella architecture - your query never hit all the peers.

BitTorrent was designed with the good parts like decentralized file transfer, and ditched the decentralized search - simplified with a centralized website/tracker model that can also be members only. That helped people stay more under the radar, as well as allow people to jump on/off to get what they want.

Ultimately the better balance which is why BitTorrent is still going strong today, but there is some nostalgia for the craziness of a single global network. Where people can freely share all their stuff, and downloading/opening files was like rolling the dice.

  • Mc91 4 minutes ago

    I remember Gnucleus and followed the release of Gnutella and used to read the old Gnutella Developer Forum on Yahoo where the major Gnutella clones hashed out the next steps for the network.

    I agree - competition from BitTorrent lowered Gnutella's popularity.

    Another thing about BitTorrent - I go to the Pirate Bay right now and look at top 100 for music, and "Pink Floyd - Discography 1967-2014" is one of the top torrents - 2.86 gigs, 131 seen seeds, 10 seen partials (seeds means they have 100% of the blob). You can download the whole thing if you want, or one album, or one song on one album. Also most bittorrent clients have anti-leech constraints, so someone might start out accepting and sharing any part of that blob, making the one song they want a high priority request for them. So this sort of thing has all kinds of benefits for the network. Whereas Gnutella tends to be look for and get one song at a time.

  • rickcarlinoOP an hour ago

    Thanks for dropping a comment! Collecting Gnutella history is a hobby of mine if the article did not make that apparent. I’ve seen a lot of your past work related to Gnucleus while researching the protocol and digging through old documents in archive.org. It always surprised me that the homepage was still online after so many years.

    Are you still active in open source / decentralized tech these days?

abcd_f 9 minutes ago

The main issue with Gnutella was - IIRC - that it didn't scale. At least the initial version, not sure if there was a revised one.

Basically, if you open the log window and look at the peer messages, then beyond certain network size all you'd see was a flood of relayed search queries with duplicates that ground all other activity to the halt. And the whole thing just became unusable.

PS. Also, Gnutella was released almost to the day when some clause of the AOL's purchase contract of Nullsoft (stock option vesting?) has expired so the devs were ultimately free to do whatever the f they wanted. So released the file sharing app. That was a nice touch.

dnnddidiej 6 minutes ago

Is Bittorrent connected to this. Isn't that still going strong?

dlenski 2 hours ago

Great article. It's been almost 20 years since I've used Gnutella, but I seem to recall that, as flexible and resilient as it was, it had some pretty major issues with speed of queries and scaling to millions of users. I think Bittorrent become popular in the mid-to-late '00s in large part because its model of redundant copies scaled better than Gnutella.

> The Gnutella project began as an internal demo that leaked to the public after its corporate overlord, AOL, cancelled the project.

I don't think it was actually a leak in the usual sense of the word. There was no unauthorized release; rather, AOL didn't really understand what their new subsidiary was releasing.

As I understand it, Gnutella was written as a new project by Justin Frankel, the author of Winamp (which probably did more to popularize using computers to listen to music than anything else!), during or shortly after the sale of Winamp and Nullsoft to AOL. It was probably a chaotic time, and a massive culture clash between this big behemoth of a late-'90s tech and communications company, and this small startup of Early Internet Nerds.

Nullsoft's new corporate overlords probably didn't understand what they were creating: a new file-sharing/music-piracy program that would be like Napster, but more decentralized and resilient.

Frankel/Nullsoft released Gnutella and it was downloaded by thousands of people immediately. Perhaps friends in the recording industry called AOL execs, or in some other way they finally understood what it was, and AOL shut down the downloads less than a day later and cancelled the planned open-source code release, but due to its decentralization the network kept running, and it was soon reverse engineered.

As far as I know, the source code of the original Windows implementation of Gnutella never leaked.

kderbe 3 hours ago

I would read a follow-up about LimeWire's dynamic query routing. I enjoyed the writing style very much and now I'm reading Rick's other articles on topics that normally wouldn't interest me. Thanks Rick!

mrenzo an hour ago

I always find this kind of thing interesting. A protocol can outlive the companies, devices, and culture around it, mostly because nobody has to keep owning it for it to keep making sense.

gitowiec 2 hours ago

Thank you for reminding me about this. Next to soulseek I'm going to use it to not obey!

  • pndy 2 hours ago

    Didn't soulseek had some requirements you had to fulfill before downloading?

    • specproc an hour ago

      I've used soulseek pretty recently! There's a nice client called nicotine, IIRC.

      There are message bots that spam you with racist abuse if you're sharing nothing (i.e. not even your downloads), but that's about it.

      • pndy an hour ago

        Oh so pretty much the "classic" share something rule; that was pain in the ass in DC++ times but quality of whatever you could find there was best

chuckadams 3 hours ago

Hot take: the simple reason Gnutella declined is that it was replaced by Bittorrent.

  • UncleEntity an hour ago

    Sure, but the attached chat rooms were pretty handy, I used to like to download bootlegged concerts back in the day, to find new ones you've never heard of.

    Plus, always fun to get laughed for mistyping The Almond Brothers Band at 3am...

  • outside1234 2 hours ago

    I don’t think that’s a hot take, BitTorrent learned from Gnutella and made a better protocol. Gnutella is important historically, but it had a lot of downsides as a protocol that BitTorrent improved on.

bellowsgulch 2 days ago

That’s what Limewire used? It definitely came pre-bootstrapped then.

  • rickcarlinoOP 2 days ago

    Are you asking if lime wire used Gnutella Web Cache for bootstrapping? I’m not sure. GWebCache is one of many possible ways to boot strap, and I have not run lime wire in over a decade. I saw that GTKGnutella moved off of GWebCache sometime ago and uses some sort UDP based tool now. I am fairly certain that Shareaza still uses it because I see those results come up in my Web cache pull from time to time. I have seen a few advertisements from lime wire fork projects as well.

    • bragr 2 hours ago

      If I recall, proprietary clients usually shipped with their own bootstrap server. I think it may have even contributed to the legal cases, but it's been a long time.

itsthecourier 2 days ago

just reading gnutella triggered a really old memory of times when Ares, Limewire and eMule where places to try your luck getting mp3s and software

  • felooboolooomba 3 hours ago

    Back in the day as a teenager. Downloaded mp3 that was labelled with title and artist and .mp3 extension. It wasn't. What it was caused me to wipe my hard drive and reinstall everything. Fkuc that shit. Apart from that, many good stuff was had.

    • leeoniya 3 hours ago

      or was it Windows hiding file extensions by default and you downloaded a .mp3.exe file?

      • netsharc 3 hours ago

        Isn't it just great how a decision made by some genius in Microsoft decades ago caused so much confusion and mess. Even on Windows 11 the default is to hide extensions, because, geez, wouldn't want to confuse people with change after decades of it being like that.

        Although, was the hiding something that the Mac introduced?

        The idea of the last part of the filename (after the period) determining what program is launched to handle the file is odd anyway...

        I wonder if the Windows spyware infrastructure measures what % of people turn off extension hiding..

        • chuckadams 3 hours ago

          The mac started out without using extensions at all, the type was embedded in the metadata. That's still possible now, but it's largely derived from extensions first. I believe Finder shows all extensions by default. It certainly does in details mode.

        • throwawaysoxjje 3 hours ago

          Macs originally didn’t have filename extensions because the file type was stored as metadata in the file system

          • hnlmorg an hour ago

            That really is a superior way of doing things too. Or at least it would have been if that metadata were transferred with the file itself in all protocols.

      • felooboolooomba 39 minutes ago

        Nope. It had been renamed from .avi. CP.

  • cwnyth an hour ago

    BearShare, too, which also included pictures and video. I don't remember ever getting a virus from it, but I also kept extensions visible.

    • suzzer99 39 minutes ago

      I still get spam emails on the one-off email address I used to sign up for Bearshare.

  • culi 3 hours ago

    Docuwiki (not to be confused with DokuWiki) is still the most thorough source I've seen for niche documentaries.

    https://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Category:Name

    It is all ed2k links. Unfortunately modern clients for ed2k are quite lacking

  • rrgok 3 hours ago

    Shareaza was the goat. It had 4 or 5 protocols.

thiscatis 3 hours ago

Great memories of limewire but unfortunately its creator has gone full MAGA/MAHA, dropped all scientific knowledge he ever had by funding RFK Jr. and is even advocating cancelling child vaccination schedules.

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