Ask HN: Why do engineers hate salespeople?
One reason: they make promises on behalf of the engineering team without their consent, in order to close sales. These promises become the engineering team's responsibility to manage from there. And the salesperson gets a bonus for closing the sale, instead of being punished as the engineering team is (by having to work overtime as a result, or by having to work on items that are less relevant to their career goals, etc.)
Another reason: most engineering workers aren't given revenue sharing bonuses, but sales people are for selling the product of the engineering team's work, which breeds resentment. (A little like a line cook resenting tips given to a server, if not shared with the kitchen.)
"No one gets paid until something get's sold".
I heard this from management over and over again during my engineering career.
It never occurred to them that nothing gets sold until something get's built. They took this part for granted.
The more pertinent question is why does American business culture emphasize and reward sales more than engineering?
In other words, how do you logically explain why the guy who sells the product gets a share of the revenue but the guy who built it doesn't?
Because the decision makers do not make their choice on a purely rational basis. Usually the deal was already agreed to through back channels. Then comes the dog and pony show where they shop for some cost-benefit analysis or pay a consultant or just plain lie to justify their decision.
American management is really a cult.
There are members and outcasts.
Members are rewarded and nurtured. Outcasts are restricted, controlled and overruled. In American business society, engineering will forever be an outcast --- not because it's logical but because it's a tradition --- one that the cult rarely breaks.
Outcasts are rarely allowed to voice an opinion (Example: Boeing). The overall structure is really descended from the plantation system which is a variation of the even older feudal system.
The only real escape for an outcast --- refuse to play the game, start your own business --- which I did decades ago.
>nothing gets sold until something gets built.
Unfortunately, plenty of vaporware gets sold.
Yeah this. We had to build plenty of stuff that had already been sold. I think one of the salespeople got in trouble for it, once.
One salesperson, once.
Do I hate them? No way, I don't hate them, I kind of wish I had some of the social skills they had during that period.
But still not working the weekend to build what you already sold, sorry not sorry. I'll look at it on Monday.
Yeah I have seen this. I hope there were better ways to restrict this from happening
Not to mention the folks that support it dealing with the front line grunt work being paid peanuts by comparison to the sales bonuses.
Sorry did not get who are these people who deal with the front line grunt work? Support/engineers?
That’s a fair question. What I have seen is that engineers are rewarded way more in equity than salespeople. Is that true?
engineers are rewarded way more in equity than salespeople
The only time I have seen this is with startups --- where they are cash strapped so engineers building the new product are given *equity* instead of wages.
Equity can be created simply by issuing stock --- which for a startup with negative cash flow is basically worthless at the time.
This is highly risky for the employee. If the product/company is wildly successful, early employees can get rich. But most startups fail --- so more often, they're left with nothing to show for their work.
Yeah the downside is huge. I hope there was a way to reward engineering teams too for sales commission.. have you come across any company that doso?
No, I have never seen engineering get sales commissions.
I have seen sales people get *recurring* commissions --- where they get a piece of every future sale to a particular client. Even if they have no involvement in the purchase. In extreme cases, they make good money doing nothing.
Engineers never get paid for doing nothing --- because they are not members of the ruling class.
Years ago, as a programmer, I would say I didn't HATE our salesmen (we had no saleswomen), but I was definitely not IMPRESSED with them, because they would say anything, even lie. I remember our company had an open house for employee families, during which our lone minicomputer was programmed to make the reel-to-reel backup tape move back and forth just to have it doing something. When our top salesman brought his family around to show off our computer room, he just made up and announced some BS story about that moving tape, and his story had no relation to any past, present, or future truth. I immediately thought "God knows what he claims when talking to our customers".
At that same company, I remember the VP of Marketing having zero ethics. He had an ad agency think up and develop an ad campaign, then told them no, and took all their ideas and examples to a different agency to avoid being charged for the concept.
One big reason: They over promise with out checking with the engineers. Leading to rush modification and/or unmet promises. That's one big reason.
They shouldn't hate salespeople since without them they would most likely not have a job and vice versa.
We don't. That's an artificially created divide meant to create competition between different areas of a company to increase productivity.
That’s so dull. Why to create competition?
I don't know, and I don't care much about it.
It sure varies. I was engineer (titles: SE, Systems Engineer, later Technical Account Manager) with a great sales rep at Sun. She set up all the appointments, prepped me on customer needs, the works. Downside was when she went on a diet and believe me, Jamba Juice doesn't cut it.
She left for Interwoven. In the meantime, I handled most of two jobs, with sales reps flying up from L.A. to help. We worked one major proposal for a college library that was pretty cool but never flew. Had some great customer meetings. The customer knew a great sushi place nearby. (No, it wasn't all about food. I wrote some great proposals.)
Got a rookie sales person who knew jack (lower case j) and came to customer meetings unprepared. Majorly pissed off a major customer by suggesting that they rip out all their servers and replace them. It was hell.
I joined a startup with another Sun person who was so sales oriented that he promised the world on a platter. Guess who had to deliver? Well, it all fell apart. I was so confused as scope increased and the crew was reduced in order of competence. Competent first.
I forgot simple things (rsync is a gift from the Gods) in the madness.
I sure missed the salad days (even if the salad was Jamba Juice).
I don't hate salespeople at all (unless they're trying to sell to me, of course).
But I have learned to be wary of them. They have a tendency to misrepresent the products to one degree or another, make promises that engineering can't fulfill, and that sort of thing. They can make my job more difficult as a result, so they have to be watched carefully.
But has it ever happened that some salesperson who was genuinely authentic and just doing her job made you feel otherwise? And you did not hate them while they were doing their job?
Are you talking about my "trying to sell to me" quip? Even then, I don't really hate the salesperson personally. But I absolutely hate being sold to, yes, and try my best to avoid that. That they're doing their job and perhaps are being authentic doesn't enter into it.
Being sold to sucks and provides no benefit to me. Attention from a salesperson interferes with my purchasing decisions, wastes my time, and is all too often adversarial.
Like everything, it depends on the person. If they're slimy, then of course the straight-talker types will hate them.
But I've worked with a number of great sales people and teams, who actually care about improving customers' lives with our products.
Our collaborations have been great because they're a fountain of insight into how customers view and use our products, which helps us streamline existing products and come up with new and better ones. It becomes a virtuous cycle.
Without them, you're stuck in a "better mousetrap" problem.
I agree. What are some common behavioural aspect/traits that you observed in these salespeople/team that made them so great?
What do you mean by "salespeople" here? Executives, C-suites, managers, or actual salespeople?
Speaking personally, I hate salespeople because they're always selling me something. Engineers, by-and-large, hate salespeople because the self-actualization of a salesperson is worthless. The best salespeople are typically the worst people. The best engineers (Woz, Ritchie, Lattner) can make a positive impact even in-spite of commercial interests.
Interesting. Curious to learn more about this aspect of self actualisation of salespeople is worthless?