Apollo will close down on June 30th
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This makes me indescribably sad.
Apart from mourning the loss of a fantastic app by an awesome developer, to me it signals the end of a golden era of small indie client only apps. Since the APIs for the likes of reddit, twitter (RIP tweetbot) and others were available for free or a reasonable fee it spawned a whole cottage industry of developers who made a living selling alternate front ends for these services. These apps invented many of the conventions and designs that eventually percolated to the official clients. Sometimes these innovations even became platform wide conventions (pull to refresh anyone?). The writing was on the wall for a while, but now the door is firmly closed on that era - and we will all be poorer for it.
My feelings exactly. We're all stuck with the official Reddit and Twitter clients now. They're not even good. We know they're not good, but they're now the only place to experience Reddit and Twitter. It's like enterprise software for a whole social network.
I just don't think I'll use Reddit anymore. It was a nice place to catch up with my interests but the only way in which I used it was via Apollo. The one thing that made Reddit unique compared to all its competitors was its developer community and they have deliberately torpedoed it.
All good things have to end but this was avoidable.
Where to next though? is there anywhere else like it?
I am the developer of HACK, hacker news app for iOS, android and MacOS. I have been working on a decentralized link + text sharing site called AvocadoReader for last few weeks. I am hoping to have an extremely early beta next week. I shared some implementation details here if people want to read more:
https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13x0hzo/been_wor...
Not commenting on your app, but I think the real reason mobile clients are needed for Reddit is that they intentionally try to break the mobile web experience to force their app down your throat. In contrast, HN.. doesn't. The mobile website is pleasant to use, if you are okay with the rather small text buttons.
That's a perfectly fair point. I personally think HN is one of the best designed sites out there. Being extremely minimal is one of the best designs. I hope that never changes.
I built HACK specifically to be able to be notified when people reply to me. That's one of my selling points.
Commenting this from HACK. The default HN interface does have problems. The buttons are indeed too small. The comments indentation is a little too small. Lack of notifications. A separate page on clicking reply, etc.
I was spoiled by Apollo for Reddit and HACK has done the same thing for HN. Thank you!
iOS has "unblocked" browser notifications now, hasn't it?
That’s only if hacker news decides to implement it. And based on their motto, I doubt they will.
What I mean is that you don't have to build an iOS app anymore just for notifications.
Hey I’ve never been on HN before but have seen good articles pop up on Reddit. A few minutes ago I searched for hacker news in the App Store, scrolled a bit, and downloaded HACK because it looked the most promising :)
And now I’m posting my first HN comment on this app to the dev hahah.
Haha thanks! Glad you could find my app easily!
message me at (my username) at gmail dot com. I'm the creator of Touchbase (www.touchbase.id) that lets users share all their online platforms in 1 profile, and I want to speak on possibly integrating HACK as a platform that users can share their account of.
commenting from HACK rn!! it reminds me of apollo in a good way :)
You’re on it, buddy :P
Unfortunately, HN has nowhere near the diversity of communities and viewpoints as a place like reddit did.
Yeah it's a bizarre claim. I've described HN as a single, usually really good, subreddit before but it's absolutely not a replacement for the entire site.
Indeed. And it even has the same features (centralized, ultimately beholden to commercial interests) that destroyed Reddit!
But don't worry, that's not going to happen here. You don't need a decentralized non-profit community, trust me. It's going to work out this time. Really.
Ironically Reddit also gives users way more control over their data than this place.
I'm not sure if you're being entirely serious but I disagree. HN is special because while it's a popular (relatively speaking) social media site, it's also run by a company that isn't in the social media business. YC is not concerned with how to make HN revenue generating, they just want to push people to where the real money is made for them: their startup accelerator.
With that said it's in YC's best interest to keep users happy, only change what is requested and generally keep the status quo. Unfortunately for a company like Reddit that is a social media site and has to make money with their social media product, keeping users happy at all costs is not in their best interest (though that has yet to be seen).
Well, as it stands HN is like just another good subreddit.
There's a list here: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/13x9sy7/now_that...
Note that all of these are still centralized, so still subjects to similar issues. Once again selfhosting is the best xay forward
digg :)
"We're" not stuck unless your career is in social media, in which case yes, they will still be the most popular sites and the best way to reach people.
But for the rest of us, there's always a choice to foster a new community. Whether there is enough for that, and if a server is ready for that load, are big questions to answer though
And that’s fine. We need less low effort rage bait, viral influencer influence on the economy.
The reach of contrived political philosophy, fiat economic hustle, and pop culture gabber can be constrained; the obsolescence of /. , MySpace, and the like did not destroy reality. Now we know the outcome of the social media experiment. Utter dumpster fire.
It occurs to me people made a whole lot of small business work before handing sacks of cash to cloud SaaS
We need less adminisphere in all contexts so we can screw up again, let the wrong people helicopter us with banal AI bots, make lizard brain m sedate until it gets bored with AI bots. Then we’ll trot out a new copium for the masses and they can lean back again, super proud of their commitment to whatever hallucinated ideology they believe they’re serving.
All while waving off the ecological impact, because reality is just a big graph, mmmk
If you work in social media, you can probably afford a subscription based enriched app that pays the API fees.
It's the normal users that suffer. Hopefully that suffering will hit Reddits usage/cash flows enough to make them u turn.
You certainly can redirect people to a website/app for a more tailored platform. But it's not the 2000's anymore where sites feature forums, comments sections, and other community features encouraging users to stay in their environment. At best, the ones that remain use middleware liks Disqus or Discord (and that is a whole other tangent that I could rant about all day) or simply encourage users to share on Reddit/TWitter.
They still can, but most sites these days are fine going where the people go, and linking to their custom stuff.
Twitter pushed me onto Mastodon a while back and i imagine Reddit will do the same. Funny enough, i have exactly one of the clients mentioned in this discussion - Tweetbot - on Mastodon. Ie the app made by the same devs.
I have no idea why, but I can only stand to use reddit in "old" mode. Even on mobile. It's completely 100% unusable in any other format. I've tried to use their app and standard mobile website, but I can't make heads or tails of the hierarchy of content.
If you don't use old mode in a mobile browser, they block off 1/3 of your screen with "Are you sure you don't want to use the Reddit App?" Pretty sure I don't Reddit.
Any tips on using old reddit on a phone? Constantly zooming in to press unfriendly-for-tap buttons make it a chore, compared to Apollo.
That’s the way.
The alternative is the god awful updated site or their app. I hope you like adverts.
There could be a userscript for a better reddit UI if someone cared but looks like nobody does. There's also Reddit Enhancement Suite but I don't think you can use it on mobile.
Wasn't there something called `teddit` that was written in nim that did a better job of removing all the js crap that makes reddit terrible? I would imagine everyone will just move to that if possible. Although perhaps that may also be affected by their idiotic API charge junk.
Yep https://teddit.net/ although it’s quite slow. There are other alternatives out there too.
I wish the Twitter client were half as good as Apollo. I really miss the ability to navigate the stack by swiping as intuitively as I can with Apollo. In Twitter the best I can hope for is a stack of depth two.
Decentralization doesn't seem like a bad idea now?
Only if there was a way to host websites where no central authority ever owned the data and the people who ran relays got paid in some form of cryptographically secure crypto currency. Frontend clients that made requests would need to pay in the same token to avoid abuse.
If the web collectively swings back in the other direction, to the fediverse or some other evolution, there will be a revival of small indie clients, and a revival of a better web in general. Twitter is in freefall and Reddit is on the verge of it, so it might not be a long wait.
The anti-federation argument has always been that centralized entities have the resources to make a better product. And if that's true, then Apollo is the exception to the rule. Reddit has a team with dozens of engineers, while Apollo has one developer with some part time help. So why is Apollo so much better than the official app?
What the pro-centralization argument misses is that centralized apps also have incentive to monetize their app, and monetization features can harm quality. But in the case of Reddit I'm not sure it's only monetization which has ruined the first-party user experience. The engineering quality is just bad.
>So why is Apollo so much better than the official app?
It's because of misaligned incentives.
Third-party clients are good because their only focus is to provide the best user experience to the website content. The user is the customer, and pleasing the customer is what makes money.
First-party clients have all sorts of competing goals: showing ads, data mining, maximizing engagement, soliciting upsells (Reddit badges) and other dark patterns. Many of these conflict with providing good UX (especially ads.) The user is not the customer, advertisers are, so when the customer gets what he wants, the user gets the shaft.
First-party clients for ad-supported websites fundamentally can't be good. That's just not incentivized by the business model.
Furthermore, having third party apps in directly against the business model, which seeks total control of the user's attention to deliver ads and optimize for profits. They are hoping to bump their valuations up before the IPO by this.
Great analysis of first party vs third party clients, it open eyes
> The anti-federation argument has always been that centralized entities have the resources to make a better product.
I wouldn't phrase it like that.
I'd say 'The anti-federation reality has always been that centralized entities have the authority to more quickly evolve their product.'
Whereas federated models have always had a terrible time upgrading standards in a timely manner, even when upgrades are obviously needed.
However, products typically exist in distinct phrases -- rapid growth/evolution is eventually followed by stability/maturity.
Once the product switches to that latter mode, the evolutionary speed benefits of centralization dull.
Obvious example: AOL Instant Messenger and ICQ's initial popularity... before multi-client Trillian et al. became preferable... because the limited intersection feature set it supported already covered everything everyone wanted to do via IMs.
Reddit reached feature completion and maturity a while ago, which made it ripe for disruption via a decentralized clone.
However, they're just realizing the emperor has no clothes and their only remaining moat is their existing users, and users are a fickle moat.
> The anti-federation argument has always been that centralized entities have the resources to make a better product.
This seems like half the argument. The other half of the argument is that you could build a federated system of similar efficiency where everybody notifies/queries a central hub decided by convention.
The important-ish distinction is that you don't need as many resources (for polling) if you can generate enough trust that ~everyone is willing to push to you.
(I don't want to get up my own ass here, so to my mind the only thing that matters about "having enough resources to make a better product" is that you have all the content, presumably by crawling the entire network on shorter intervals than anyone else.)
I left facebook towards the end of 2016, for exactly the reason you might think. I used Twitter for a while before and after that as a kind of methadone, and even stipulating that I was not looking for connection to friends and family, the interactions I had on Twitter in 2017 were, by and large, incredibly low-quality, and I was only interacting with people who ideologically agreed with me, the trolls never reached me, or if they did they were in stealth mode and ineffective.
In retrospect, some of the accounts might have been intended to make the left look extra ridiculous, not sure, but I don't really believe that's true, I've seen people chase enough bad ideas en masse now that I think these were well-meaning people who believed that by participating in this infernal attention mill, they were doing things that would change the world for the better.
Reddit has likewise never been even mediocre at what it's purporting to be, these are all just what happens when people approach the internet, which is one thing, as though it was a super cool television, which is a whole other thing. The illusion of participation and having a voice is really what people are buying with all their attention, because actually having a voice on the actual internet means knowing html at a minimum. Not actually a tall order for anyone who has a couple days and a willingness to do a bit of mental labour, but why bother when you can just post on whichever corporate daemon you favour.
The weirdest thing of all to me, I don't even know how I found this place but it's got some of the best interactions I've had since Usenet died, and I didn't know know what ycombinator was or why it wasn't called hackernews.net or whatever. To learn just this week that the platform is just a service operated by the people behind quite a lot of this VC fuckery, I'm still integrating it, but it kinda feels like I wandered into the country club after getting lost in the woods and nobody's asked who I'm here with or why I'm not fetching them a bowl of nuts.
Anyways didn't come to talk about that, came to say, been using Mastodon the last month or so, and I am also having pretty high quality interactions there. Nothing remotely like the idiocy I encountered daily in my Twitter feed. Occasionally a thing that I don't care for, like, I really don't need all the furry porn, holy crap are there ever a lot of very dedicated people servicing the furry market and I'm gonna be looking into that cause I know how to make tails move. But that filters out easy.
I'm on the main instance and I'm looking around at others while I decide whether to just self-host, but I enjoy the scroll with the accounts and hashtags I follow, the quality ranges from boring to amazing, very little annoying, trollish, spammy, Mindset-infected trash comes through my feed, and like I said, the only heavy filtering I've done is the porn.
Best part: I loved Facebook when I first joined and when I started to get discontented was when the default feed stopped being "what you follow in the order they post," and that has never been around since, except notably on reddit I suppose. Nothing wrong with having an algo feed available for discovery, and Mastodon has that, but your feed is just what you follow in the order they post as a default. So you scroll down till you realize you've seen it already, and you know you've seen it all for now and you move on. There is no machine trying to hold your attention, there is just what you asked for. What a concept.
>it kinda feels like I wandered into the country club after getting lost in the woods and nobody's asked who I'm here with or why I'm not fetching them a bowl of nuts
The tech genius hobos, burnouts, and weirdos come here to rub elbows with the Patagucci vest crowd. The guy who manages this place ("dang") seems to tolerate us unwashed types, as long as we don't post polemics. You're not necessarily in the wrong place, but I can see how you might feel outnumbered.
It really would be bad if Reddit collapsed.
Facebook is a former juggernaut of manipulating midwesterners and grandparents by driving them to bigoted echo chambers and serving them Republican targeted adverts. Now it is a wasteland of corporate pages and zombie meme groups, extremist recruitment groups for SE Asian political parties, coordination for death squads on the African continent, etc. it is impossible to host a town square or public commons discussion there.
Twitter is owned by a “libertarian” Republican techbro bigot who was financed by private Saudi equity after conversations with Thiel and a bunch of other alt-Right figures. It is swiftly become 4chan.
There are no longer Google+ forums; all the other message boards save for slashdot are unmoderated post apocalyptic horror shows roamed by Mad Max gangs (or fifteen year old gamers imagining they’re in Mad Max). Even Tumblr has at-scale difficulties countering & preventing hatred & harassment. They have no volunteer mods.
Reddit cleaned up starting in 2019. It’s home to many communities which are exactly as diverse, vibrant, and rewarding as they make themselves to be.
Reddit isn’t going to go under. It cannot. It has to persevere.
And you figure the best way to ensure that is to bring a bunch of VC capital in eh?
This comment reads as a bit unhinged, but I upvoted it for the description of Facebook which made me chuckle.
two big points
1. "better is subjective" and what reddit's native app is trying to do is "better" for reddit's bottom line. 2. more importantly, there is a case of "good enough". As I'm sure we've seen over the history of the internet, the "better product" doesn't always win. this is 1000x truer for social media. Reddit's app is "good enough" for those who use reddit casually it that they don't look for/at alternatives. it lets you scroll, look at pretty pictures, and maybe up/down vote quickly. Anything else to that user is fluff. You can skimp out on a lot of features, even core ones, if those 3 parts are good enough.
Reddit's app is "good enough" for those who use reddit casually it that they don't look for/at alternatives.
The problem with that, if it's true, is that those people are less likely to be the content creators and more likely to be people who come to read what the 'serious' Reddit users post. Losing the hardcore group of creators will kill Reddit because then there'll be nothing for the casual readers to read.
Ultimately, Reddit's main work is to serve a small core group of people who post new content, and that content is what draws the rest of the users. They'll need those users to be happy in the first party app. That might be the case already. If it isn't, Reddit are taking a huge risk.
Reddit largely leeches anyways. I’m not exactly sure why (I suspect the sorting algorithm and the quick turnover of content), but its community is shockingly unproductive in terms of content creation. The only thing it does somewhat well is aggregation. So no, I don’t think they have much to fear in that regard.
They are risking the relationship to their army of unpaid cops though. These people are absolutely crucial for maintaining the gentrification of that space. Without them, all the hard work to slowly change the tone towards an ad-friendly and ideologically compliant tune is going to be lost. It is not unlikely, but by no means guaranteed that they can recruit another batch of people wohnst willing to do this for free after ruining the relationship with those who got invested during a time when the company was masquerading itself as a community.
Not surprising at all. Reddit's culture is vehemently against original creation and deftly afraid of any hint of self-promotion. The users claim to be tired of all the same reposts but shun 99% of attempts for people to share originality.
It's a natural consequence.
>Losing the hardcore group of creators will kill Reddit because then there'll be nothing for the casual readers to read.
I agree. I guess the gamble here (that historically, usually pays off) is that the casual userbase size is good enough to keep the power users around, who ultimately want visibility. That's the hardest part of the modern internet and why social media survive well past what would be downfalls for any other product.
I'm not going to say Reddit is too big to fail, but I don't think reddit's death will be by a thousand paper cuts. it will heal with new mods as fast as the old ones leave. Whether it whither and rots away over the years with that new modbase is the big question mark.
Oh wow, "pull to refresh" was invented by one of these indie clients? Do you remember which one?
And wasn't it the Twitterrific client that came up with the phrase "tweet", and they also introduced the blue bird icon.
Then musk took over, and he banned them from using the API and forced them to close down. What a stand up guy.
Tweetie - iPhone Twitter app in like 2008
Tweetie for iOS
Mastodon clients are a fun UI playground, lots of indie apps (at least on iOS).
Unfortunately Mastodon feels a bit empty, there's not many people on it yet.
It depends on what sort of community you follow. The ML and tech podcasting communities have largely moved over. The politics, journalism and celebrity part of twitter hasn’t moved over. The corollary to that is that much of the vitriol and random toxicity also hasn’t moved over. I have a more vibrant and more interesting mastodon feed than I ever had on twitter. And my twitter feed now is a wasteland, stripped of the good content but still filled with all of the bad content. Twitter is dead man walking as far as I’m concerned.
The problem I experience with Mastodon is it seems like a total echo chamber. Very little interesting conversation most of the time. I still find good links to content there though.
Historically, before the "mass migration" most Mastodon servers were built around a specific community and their shared values of what was appropriate to post. Sure it was federated but many early users tended to stick to "their" server exclusively.
It's no surprise that can end up feeling like an echo chamber. It's getting better than it was when I first started using it about six months ago but some of the posts people catch heat for seem a bit too over the top.
One of my favorite examples was a user who posted a photo of their dinner. It was nothing crazy just like rice, veggies, and chicken. They were immediately accosted for not posting a trigger warning since some people have eating disorders. That's the type of community I have no patience for.
> I have a more vibrant and more interesting mastodon feed than I ever had on twitter.
Exactly! I can comment on a post and have real engagement with someone which hasn't happened in years on Twitter.
Mastodon doesn't have algorithmic recommendations, so you have to follow people fairly liberally to get a good amount of content in your feed.
This exactly. Furthermore, Mastodon rewards those that want to actively participate in communities. It does not reward lurkers who want to passively (doom)scroll.
That's... kind of dumb? What's wrong with lurking if you don't have much to say on a topic, but want to observe?
Makes sense if the goal is to get content flowing. Doesn't make sense if you want the quality of content to be good.
How does that work?
If Alice posted once the last months, and Bob 20 times, and they both post another post, then ... maybe Mastodon will promote Bob's post and demote Alice's because Bob has been more active? (I would have preferred the opposite, hmm)
I mean, according to the joinmastodon.org API stats[0] there are nearly 7 million users and wavering around 9-10k instances (servers).
IMO that era already ended when we transitioned from ICQ, AIM, MSN & co to Whatapp, Signal and the google messenger du jour.
>to me it signals the end of a golden era of small indie client only apps.
To me it signals you're a fairly new entrant to the intertubez.
Third party frontends for a given backend have existed since time immemorial, with or without sanctioned access to the backend's innards.
Alternatives to Explorer and Program Manager for a Windows shell are one of the older examples, more contextually relevant and newer examples would be programs like Pidgin and Trillian which served as third party clients for AIM, MSN, YIM, ICQ, etc.
None of this in any general sense is going away, though specific examples might.
It’s only happening this way if we let it.
We can build a Reddit replacement… we just have to want to
Funny, everyone was pissed at the Apollo developer before Reddit announced these changes. Now the anger has completely shifted.
In this situation, do you hire someone to negotiate with or for you? I'm thinking the intention here was to sell the company for $10 million and that came across as a threat because of the language that was used. You would not record the call [1] and then publish it if you actually were blackmailing them for $10 million. I'm not faulting the guy here at all, I just think it comes down to lack of experience in dealing with negotiations of this level. He clearly has an awesome product if you look at any of the HN/Reddit comments.
He probably could have walked away will at least a few million vs shutting it down if there was a small level of negotiation that took place here. I'm not sure who was on the other end of the call but strategic accounts normally get pretty seasoned sales folks assigned to them. They are used to having hard conversations around pricing and pissed off customers. That's all part of negotiation.
That call was brutal to listen too.
Or, is saying you're shutting down part of negotiation too? This likely took it too far if it was, in that you're making reddit look like the bad guy very publicly now. So, it's probably worth it for reddit to cut ties and force people into the reddit app.
No winners here:
* Apollo the company is gone.
* Apollo users are gone.
* Reddit has no customer paying money.
* Reddit cannot reference them.
* Reddit users are ticked off.
[1] http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3...
It's certainly a strange call. Hey, you want to charge me $20 million per year, so why don't we make it easy and you just pay me $10 million to go quiet?
It's really confusing. He wants Reddit to pay $10 million so he isn't "loud" with API usage? He wants them to buy and takeover the app? He's wants a payment to shutdown? Is he even serious about any of this? I get the impression he lacks the confidence to ask for a $10 million acquisition, so instead he approaches the subject casually as a joke, and the entire conversation spirals into confusion due to the lack of clarity.
Either way, that's not a great deal for Reddit. They might as well charge the $20 million, and if he can't find a way to pay it then Apollo shuts down and the majority of users return to the official Reddit site/app for free. There's no benefit to paying $10 million.
The call was a failure between the two parties and likely destroyed any future negotiations. I think the best suggestion was from another user here. Only allow Reddit official subscribers to use third party apps. Reddit can charge users whatever they want, and app developers can monetize their apps however they choose.
It's not strange at all. At least the Reddit CEO heard and understood perfectly well what the Apollo dev said in that call and there's a recording to prove that.
Your first sentence misrepresents what the Apollo dev said. Actually, it's the exact same misrepresentation that the Reddit CEO knowingly made in public.
First off, it's abundantly clear that the Apollo dev wasn't actually demanding money. It was a pointed statement that revealed the CEO wasn't being honest about the costs.
The CEO, in contradiction with publicly available data, claimed that Apollo was costing Reddit $20 million per year in lost opportunity. So the dev jokingly offered to sell Apollo for half that price. Then Reddit would be able to recoup the cost in half a year and gain an additional $20 million yearly. What a great deal, right? Except they both knew that the $20 million price tag was complete bogus.
> First off, it's abundantly clear that the Apollo dev wasn't actually demanding money. It was a pointed statement that revealed the CEO wasn't being honest about the costs.
I disagree, I think the Apollo dev would have happily taken the $10 million.
> Then Reddit would be able to recoup the cost in half a year and gain an additional $20 million yearly. What a great deal, right? Except they both knew that the $20 million price tag was complete bogus.
The $20 million price is irrelevant here. Reddit doesn't need to pay to acquire these users. They are Reddit users (they're registered there, and Reddit knows everything about them). They can close down Apollo and they'll get almost all the users back for free.
If Apollo had a standalone community, then it's easy to calculate the value of a user, and a fair price for acquisition. But, that's not the case here.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not siding with Reddit and I think both sides are losing here due to their poor management.
> I disagree, I think the Apollo dev would have happily taken the $10 million.
That doesn't mean he was demanding money.
> If Apollo had a standalone community, then it's easy to calculate the value of a user, and a fair price for acquisition
I do agree it's difficult to calculate the value of a user in this case.
Yes, Apollo users are Reddit users, but they are specifically Reddit users who don't use Reddit's official clients. The question is how many of those users will move to Reddit's official app after June 30, and how many will look for alternative platforms that aren't so manipulative and abusive. I for one have deleted my Reddit account and won't be going back.
> The question is how many of those users will move to Reddit's official app after June 30, and how many will look for alternative platforms that aren't so manipulative and abusive. I for one have deleted my Reddit account and won't be going back.
I think you're in the minority. If there was a well known Reddit alternative at the moment, I could see Reddit having their Digg moment and losing a large part of the community. Subreddits could blackout and threaten to leave to the other website. That is something that would be taken seriously. Dozens of subreddits with 1-50 million users potentially jumping ship at once. If you had the right platform, with the right attributes and reputation, the stars would be perfectly aligned to take in a mass number of Reddit users. But, no one is in the right position to catch the ball at the moment (I don't claim it's an easy position to be in). It's actually unfortunate, because these moments don't come too often and I believe it allows Reddit to make these changes with little repercussions. Fans of old.reddit.com better watch out, I bet it's on the chopping block within the next year.
I'm also only one datapoint but I won't use Reddit from 30th on. I guess all these big cooperation and some users are overestimating the power of their platform. I (and I know some other people from my inner circle that are not "in tech") left these platforms before and never looked back.
It was the same with Facebook: You want me to use my real name? I'm gone. Never used Facebook again. Specifically in Germany (where I would argue the population values privacy more than in other nations) that was a deal breaker for a lot of them when they started enforcing that policy.
(This example is not about a platform but more of an example of quitting a product because of "bad" behavior) Mobile games getting more and more P2W and have a half-life of ~1 year? Yeah, count me out. Especially with that example I know a lot more people that said "fuck that" and won't touch mobile games with a ten foot pole anymore.
And honestly it will be the same with Reddit. It's not like it's essential. I'll be good without it and I would guess many more people too. The two examples I gave made my life better (less screen time) and the Reddit move will do the same.
As for how it'll play out for the majority of people: I guess we'll see. But looking at Reddits latest track record of bad decisions I would argue it won't be the last one and there is a lot of potential to create a new Digg moment.
> when they started enforcing that policy.
I don't have a real name on Facebook not have any of my friends. There are also a lot of fake/troll accounts on Facebook. I don't think they ever enforced that policy.
If true I don't know how that happened but two of my friends + me got their account suspended and were asked to provide identifying information to get it reinstated - at the same time.
Yeah totally agree.
Further I wouldn’t be trusting a hot take from ~100 points GuestXXXXXX at this point of the PR dumpster fire cycle.
Given the mishaps of the past such as stealth editing comments of other users, I would not at all be surprised if these comments were made by alt accounts of u/spez.
Source on the CEO making a claim of a threat in public?
Don't know if you're being pedantic (was it the CEO himself or someone speaking for Reddit officially?), but this is the reference:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/reddit_he...
> Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
My understanding is that Reddit is saying that by not charging for the API they are losing $20M per year. So he said, well you can buy me out, and instead of doing a multiple of that $20M to be like $100M, he’s only asking for half of only one year’s worth of what they would lose. Clearly they don’t want to do that deal because the $20M figure is complete bogus.
but there’s no incentive for Reddit to pay any money, they either start charging for the API and recoup the costs or the app shuts down and it starts costing Reddit absolutely nothing
The cost for reddit as stated in another part of the call is an opportunity cost. By acquiring Apollo instead of shutting it down they would seamlessly acquire a lot of users who would have a hard time adjusting to the native app and potentially leave the platform, so this call is still a cost to them.
The app shutting down does not automatically cost nothing. If all users move to the official app the server resources still are used but the users would at least see ads.
> if he can't find a way to pay it then Apollo shuts down and the majority of users return to the official Reddit site/app for free
I think you underestimate the fallout here.
Rather, the vocal minority overestimates it. The vast majority of social media users don't give a shit, they'll continue using the platform.
I quit Reddit today in part because of this event and I had never used Apollo. I started reading it more regularly 5 years ago because a friend had ranked in their top twenty and got me curious about what he spent his time on. I loved observing a couple of communities passively, but it’s just not worth the risk anymore. They might eventually also remove old.reddit.com so I don’t see why I should bother with content that might one day disappear completely.
I’m also looking to migrate off reddit because of this. I have a couple sites for my hobbies I’ve already started to visit, but the big loss for me is the ability to find reliable information on niche topics — ie, what rain pants to buy for fishing, where in a city to get the best perogies, looking at how user opinions change over time on political topics etc. Also great are any of the discussions on movies or TV shows. I really see no alternative but reddit for these things. Does anyone have recommendations? Or do I still need to go to reddit for this.
I deleted my 8 year old account yesterday. I modded a few subs.
I don’t know if I’ll quit Reddit entirely, but I’m certainly done engaging at the level that I use to. I no longer trust how Reddit will decide to use my data or how they’ll pull the rug from me. They’re pre-IPO and already getting desperate. Shits going to hit the fan when they IPO and investors expect constant growth.
I might have agreed with you if not for the fact that Reddit was effectively born when we all left Digg en masse because of a major, unpopular change just like this. Piss off enough people all at the same time and things actually happen. Reddit has been boiling this frog for so long I thought they had learned their lesson but apparently not.
Reddit existed as an equivalent just slightly smaller alternative to Digg at the time. There is nothing like that for current Reddit.
Any thread about Google Search on here is filled with people saying they have to do "site:reddit.com" to get accurate results. I've never seen another site used in that example. I'd love to be proven wrong on this because it means there's some great internet resource I've been missing out on.
Nah. It’s time to decentralize and federate ALL social networks. Mastodon is in good shape now let’s do lemmy? I think that’s the front runner.
Mastodon petered out and Lemmy never gained traction in the first place
Sorry, no. Mastodon is quite lively.
Lemmy is developed by and its main instance run by tankers. We need a healthier alternative.
What are tankers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
> Tankie is a pejorative label for communists, particularly Stalinists, who support the authoritarian tendencies of Marxism–Leninism or, more generally, authoritarian states associated with Marxism–Leninism in history.
> ...
> The term is also used to describe people who endorse, defend, or deny the crimes committed by communist leaders such as Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Kim il-Sung. In modern times, the term is used across the political spectrum to describe those who have a bias in favor of authoritarian communist states, such as the People's Republic of China, the Syrian Arab Republic, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Additionally, tankies have a tendency to support non-socialist states if they are opposed to the United States and the Western world in general.
---
Or a quick way - if you think of countries that have military parades with tanks rolling down city streets, those are supported by "tankies".
Got it. I should have looked this up.
Does it matter though if Lemmie is run by such a group when you could potentially spin up your own instance where you enforce totally opposing values?
If you have a site that is espousing contradictory values to the main site, would the main site accept your content? or would they kind of shun you?
(alas, its shut down... but it used to be that if you looked at the 'moderated servers on a mastodon site you'd find parler in that list which was a modified mastodon instance that no one else wanted to talk to)
If your content is sufficiently shunned from the main instances/interchanges how discoverable would your posts be? Or would you go "ok" and accept the political or philosophical lean of the main site so that your content got syndicated/federated to others?
I mean that'll happen with literally any website, forum, BBS, subreddit framework out there. The idea here would be to create a forum stack where users can confidently contribute to knowing that no single entity has full control over all of its contents.
Obviously there's nothing stopping from some instances from creating closed or gated content, but the public facing ones with like 10-20 years of gardening input freely given by end users can never be taken away from the community, which is what's happening with Reddit and has happened with IMDB and countless others.
Mastodon far from petered out. The communities I’m apart of are highly active on there.
Either Apollo represents a “$20M opportunity” or it’s just a “vocal minority.” So, which is it? It can’t possibly be both.
Sure it can, if you assume that Reddit doesn't actually care about keeping third party apps alive and just made up the 20 million dollar figure.
> the vocal minority overestimates it
Those were the people using Apollo in the first place.
If Reddit thinks Apollo can pay them 20 million a year, 10 million is certainly a nice deal for the app? I guess that is what he meant.
It's not a deal though. Reddit says the users are worth $20 million in lost advertising. So either Apollo pays the money, the users move to another app that pays, or the users return to the official site and app. Either way, Reddit gets their $20 million.
Apollo has no leverage here unless there is strong evidence most of the Apollo users will leave Reddit if the app shuts down. I don't believe they will. The other potential leverage is the upcoming subreddit blackouts, or hinting at taking the Apollo users to start a competitor. The developer said they are not going to build a competitor (that was a mistake, they shouldn't have revealed that card), so I think the blackouts are the only chance of lowering API costs.
The point here is, if Reddit thinks the user base is worth $20M per year, paying $10M to take over the app and implement ads on it, would be a steal. They’d return the money in 6 months. Usual payback periods are like 4-8 years. Clearly the $20M is BS because otherwise they’d done the deal on the spot.
They would only do the deal on the spot if that was their only option. But they have the option of spending $0 and having the majority of the users moving to the official app.
This is an example of the same thing being worth different amounts to different parties, and the equivocation leads to comments like this thread.
If Apollo's userbase was actually generating $20mm/yr, acquiring Apollo for $10mm is a no-brainer. But if that were the case, keeping Apollo running as it is would also work.
Obviously this is not the case. Apollo is confusing costing $20mm with generating $20mm.
If it were worth $20M in lost advertising, buying the app and adding adverts to it would be a no brainer. The author was trying to call their bluff on user value, but communicated it very poorly.
There's no way the bit about $20million in lost advertising is true. Going by user counts and reddit's total ad revenue you get about $1 million.
Also, people use Apollo so they don’t have to deal with the ads and terrible ux. They’re not suddenly going to go to the terrible official website or app.
Or if they are, they'll use an adblocker and be of 0 revenue.
There are a lot of users who have decided to delete their account once 3rd party apps are gone. Some may come back but they won't be getting that 20 mil
“ Is he even serious about any of this?”
Not sure how people are misunderstanding him, he literally said he was joking… He knows it’s not a great deal for Reddit. His whole point is that the app isn’t actually worth $20 million a year, which is what they want him to pay. It’s not even worth $10 million. Not to him or Reddit or anyone else.
> His whole point is that the app isn’t actually worth $20 million a year, which is what they want him to pay. It’s not even worth $10 million. Not to him or Reddit or anyone else.
Right now there seems to be two options on the table.
1. The Apollo dev pays $20 million per year for API access.
2. Apollo shuts down and the users return to the official Reddit website/app for advertising.
If Reddit is refusing to lower their API pricing, doesn't this mean the users are worth $20 million? If the users were worth $1 million, then why wouldn't Reddit charge $2 million for the API and double their income on those users?
That being said, something else must be at play here. The users are not worth $20 million and Reddit refuses to take anything less than $20 million. If I had to guess, they want to boost metrics before going public and are willing to take a hit to their reputation to do so.
I’m just one Apollo user, but I don’t plan to install the official app. It’s terrible and riddled with ads.
It’s the same reason I don’t use instagram—seeing an ad every two images bugs the crap out of me. The difference with Reddit is there was a nice third party option.
So what he said rather poorly was:
1) ok so, according to you I’m costing you $20M/year in API load
2) How about you pay me $10M which is 6 months of your cost, and I turn off the $20M/year burden immediately.
3) you make your money back in 6 months and within a year are up $10M
The problem is Apollo does not cost Reddit $20M/year lol
Reddit should have ended the call politely and told the Apollo guy to reach out with some sort of negotiator/liaison/agent/manager on the line.
>There's no benefit to paying $10 million.
Him not rabble rousing their user base against them would have been the benefit.
Yeah this guy didn't handle this situation very well. I don't know if it would've been possible to save Apollo for reddit, but that call didn't help at all.
Also, what's the deal with him not wanting to start a competitor? That's like his only bargaining chip in this situation, and he's just throwing it away because he feels overwhelmed and wants to make iOS widgets. I totally sympathize with him and how this situation is probably incredibly stressful, but when you have 50k+ subscribers per year + millions of happy loyal users, you gotta start bringing in outside people to help with these things. He's just letting a lot of people down.
I don't mean to trash the guy, but I hope that the other third-party apps see this example and change their response to find a better outcome for their users.
Why should he be forced to do something he doesn't want to do?
He's made it abundantly clear why he doesn't want to do that, who are you (or anyone else but him) to say "No you're not allowed to have opinions, you MUST create your own alternative"?
> I've received so many messages of kind people offering to work with me to build a competitor to Reddit, and while I'm very flattered, that's not something I'm interested in doing. I'm a product guy, I like building fun apps for people to use, and I'm just not personally interested in something more managerial.
> These last several months have also been incredibly exhausting and mentally draining, I don't have it in me to engage in something so enormous.
He’s allowed to do whatever he wants (including not starting a competitor). But it’s bad from a negotiation perspective to let that out
Also bad from a business perspective. It likely would cost way less than 10m to build a competitor, functionality wise.
Reddit from 2017 or so is open source!
> But it’s bad from a negotiation perspective to let that out
It’s pretty clear that there’s no negotiating left, so I’m not sure what relevance this has anymore. A few days ago? Yeah maybe.
If the CEO is maliciously accusing you of threatening them, then there’s nothing left to negotiate. The relationship is beyond broken.
> Also bad from a business perspective. It likely would cost way less than 10m to build a competitor, functionality wise.
He has already made it clear he’s not interested in building a competitor (the quote is literally right there in the comment you replied to), so, once again, what’s your point?
It’s plainly evident that Christian is done, and I don’t blame him.
The RIF and Sync devs are too, and I’m sure all the other apps will soon announce shutdowns at the end of the month too.
Yeah, Reddit needs to majorly up their game too. You strong arm your major customers right out of the gate. What a loss for both sides. You want the guy to pay $20 million and you just give him a call on the phone. Total amateur hour.
This should have gone like, "Hey, in a few months we're rolling this out and wanted to give you a heads up so you know before anyone else, since you're a major API user. We wanted to offer you a grace period and special pricing. When's a good time to chat we'll fly out.". Fly the sales team over to where he lives, wine and dine him, etc. This is what sales people do all day long for deals that are like $250k+. For deals that are $20 million a year you'll have all parts of the company bending over backwards trying to win that.
This is all just my opinion based on what I've read so far.
It's clear that they don't want any of the third-party apps to pay them a cent. They want the third-party apps gone, and the users to move to the official app where they can be directly monetised by Reddit. There was never going to be a deal; if Reddit was interested in one they would have approached this differently.
Then why not just shut down their public API?
Optics, both are functionally shutting it down, but one claims to add value while the other removes options.
> Reddit needs to majorly up their game too. You strong arm your major customers right out of the gate. What a loss for both sides. You want the guy to pay $20 million and you just give him a call on the phone. Total amateur hour.
If they wanted him to pay $20 million, they'd certainly have given him much better than a brief phone call.
But that's the point. They're revealing with their actions that they don't actually want him to pay the money. What they want is to shut it down. Charging a sum of money that they know he won't pay is just an easy way to do that.
'course it's not just him, but it's him and _everyone else_. i'm not sure what their overall intent here was, but it's been a shit show from start to finish, and they gotta at the very least start thinking hard about pausing the rollout till they can get their ducks in a row.
> Fly the sales team over to where he lives, wine and dine him, etc. This is what sales people do all day long for deals that are like $250k+. For deals that are $20 million a year you'll have all parts of the company bending over backwards trying to win that.
I pay Apple more than a million a month and I don’t even have a contact email.
Just saying, a Christmas card would be nice.
You only approach this deal this way if you don't want the deal to go through at all.
A shocking amount of people here are assuming Reddit is launching this API program in good faith. This was not a transition third party apps were meant to survive; 30 days is nowhere near enough time for any business, let alone ones by single random software developers, to see their costs increase into the hundreds of thousands or even millions per month.
You're assuming he can pay 20 million dollars. The point is that he can't, or even a fraction of that, so there's no point to wining and dining him at all.
That’s where negotiations come in. He has been very upfront about talking and negotiations but Reddit hasn’t budged on pricing at all.
Why don’t we all monetize our hobbies? Why don’t we market our personal lives? Why don’t we each have our own line of branded merchandise? Why haven’t we written a memoir?
Because some people don’t want to! And that’s okay.
I don't think Apollo is just a hobby for Christian, given that he said that working on it is now his full-time job.
Trying to start a new social network (or whatever you'd call Reddit) from the ground-up is not only very likely to fail, but it's also a totally different skillset than building iOS apps. Of course he'd rather just find another job.
His point was that there is a big difference between building a product and operating a service. I can understanding not wanting to do the latter, because it's a COO job and unless you like doing that it is not fun.
And frankly it's a failing of society that we would ever need to.
I thought he was pretty clear that he was done bargaining:
> ... I've finally come to the conclusion that I don't think this situation is recoverable. If Reddit is willing to stoop to such deep lows as to slander individuals with blatant lies to try to get community favor back, I no longer have any faith they want this to work, or ever did.
If a bargaining chip is only useful in making a deal you've decided cannot be made, why bother holding onto it? Better to tell your fans outright that you're worn out and not interested.
> Also, what's the deal with him not wanting to start a competitor?
Would you want to moderate Reddit? I get that Apollo is in a good position to take their users with them, but it's not like it's going to be easy to build a Reddit when what you've made so far has been a frontend for Reddit and some mobile widget spin-offs.
Many of us can make a frontpage for hacker news in a few hours, some might even be able to grow a userbase on it but that doesn't mean we can do what dang does.
Many of us would prefer dang only removed spam, or moved off topic post to bantz
Absolutely not, dang's work is nothing short of miraculous and I don't know of any other forumlike place that's this civil at this scale. Hope he keeps at it in this way for a long time.
The outcome of moderation here is very good, and changing policy has a high chance of damaging the value of HN. I would not risk secondary effects, myself.
But I would enjoy HN more with a soupcon of joking (currently considered zero-value). I benefit from my bread being leavened, I like programming tutorials with humour. So it's understandable why people might want to change the policy.
> Also, what's the deal with him not wanting to start a competitor?
Yeah, what's the deal with this iOS developer not wanting to start a competitor to checks notes one of the largest websites in the world? Surely you just up and did that last week, it's no big deal.
I guess I should start getting used to saying "Jesus christ, HN" now that I won't be saying "Jesus christ, Reddit" anymore.
He can't start a competitor because he has no market power. Not enough will use the competitor product for it to be worth it. A past example of someone attempting to disintermediate Reddit was /r/changemyview which attempted to switch to changeaview.com and met immediate and total backlash. Reddit's SSO multi-forum user-generated experience is why people use it.
> Also, what's the deal with him not wanting to start a competitor?
In addition to what everyone else has said, he really has 1 month if he has any chance of siphoning off reddit users.
Because sometimes, you don't want to reclimb the mountain you just hiked up and down.
> Also, what's the deal with him not wanting to start a competitor?
I suspect that both reddit and apollo know that most of the content generation happens on Reddit controlled properties.
Apollo users probably do not generate enough content to sustain a reddit-like website.
Starting a competitor involves doing all the things that Reddit is doing (having a legal team, servers across the world and staff to operate them, making policy decisions, ...).
That is not at all the same as building an iOS client using an API as a one man show (or 1-3) and directly selling that.
Can’t really blame the guy. If I had banked $X00k-XM in my early thirties I wouldn’t be doing jobs I didn’t want to do either.
I don't know how serious he was about pursuing a sale in the calls, but he made it pretty clear in the post that he's done dealing with Reddit. This isn't an attempt at blackmail or otherwise an attempt to get Reddit to buy him out, this is him getting everything out in the open to head off lies that were being spread.
From the post:
> I bring this [audio recording] up for two reasons: ... It shows why I've finally come to the conclusion that I don't think this situation is recoverable. If Reddit is willing to stoop to such deep lows as to slander individuals with blatant lies to try to get community favor back, I no longer have any faith they want this to work, or ever did.
> I'm not sure who was on the other end of the call
He mentions that it was spez AKA Steve Huffman the CEO of reddit. The call really does sound amateurish and the joke/negotiation tactic/money request/??? was really unprofessional but Steve seems to have completely misconstrued the whole interaction and blown up at him. I would say this is worse of the CEO to use this to spread slander especially when he already apologised for misunderstanding Selig and then privately walked it back
That joke about the $10M wasn't unprofessional at all. If Steve was honest about the $20M per year opportunity cost, he would've instantly agreed to a one time $10M. Then Reddit would gain an additional $20M per year. But it was only a joke because Steve was lying about the $20M opportunity.
Christian is acting in a surprisingly civil manner despite the repeated lies and smears made by Steve and others at Reddit. I see that as being professional.
That makes no logical sense at all. Why go for $10m if there is no need to because you have already adjusted your own pricing upwards.
Also, what things are priced at is not what they cost …
Reddit specifically said that killing third apps wasn’t their intention, and wanted apps to pay a reasonable amount to cover the costs.
> Also, what things are priced at is not what they cost …
So if that’s the best argument in favor of Reddit, then it’s Reddit that’s being illogical. Or to be more straight, lying.
> Why go for $10m if there is no need to because you have already adjusted your own pricing upwards.
Because $20M is neither the amount Christian was earning, nor the cost that Reddit was paying to provide API access. Steve explicitly said it was a lost opportunity. There was simply no way that Christian could’ve paid that insane price. However, Reddit could’ve earned $20M themselves per year by acquiring Apollo. If the $20M opportunity was even remotely true, that is.
Steve appears to have assumed there is no recording, so he can represent the conversation dishonestly. Unfortunately, there is a recording, so we can all hear that it wasn't a threat and that the reddit representative admitted that on the call. The optics of ineptly smearing Christian look terrible for Reddit management.
It seems a number of people believe that the recorded call has Steve Huffman talking, but I don’t see this claim anywhere in the original post.
If you read the section titled "Bizarre allegations by Reddit of Apollo "blackmailing" and "threatening" Reddit", he is directly addressing Steve. He starts with the transcript of the private mod call with Steve and then begins addressing Steve directly. The "you" in that section is the Steve Huffman he had calls with who heard the "threatening" bit
Yeah that part says it’s Steve but where does it say it’s Steve in the phone recording? It just says “Reddit” in the transcript.
Ah I see that he is claiming it’s Steve Huffman via all the use of “you” there.
He later says that he has not personally talked to Steve Huffman.
I think you're right. The Apollo dev didn't directly mention them by name but re-reading the post, I agree that that was not spez. My mistake
>it comes down to lack of experience in dealing with negotiations of this level
Yeah, the conversation is so cringe. Why is he beating around the bush so much ? He wants to sell, shut down, or whatever for a $10M payout. It sounds easy to make that proposition. Instead, he uses terrible verbiage like, "go quiet, I'm joking, opportunity cost, Bob's your uncle, yada yada". Why is he so terrible at talking ? Nothing in the call resembles a sales pitch if he is actually trying to sell a product for $10M.
> Why is he so terrible at talking ?
He's a 20-something year old developer. This isn't his comfort zone and did not expect himself to be in this position.
I know I would be terrible if I was in his shoes.
If he was even entertaining the idea of maybe selling his company, the least he could have done was get a negotiator with mergers and acquisitions experience. If he's making reasonably good money off of Apollo, he could have afforded a few hours of a good attorney.
This call was awful to hear as an entrepreneur. He is not at all clear about what he wants, and I think he's honest when he says it's "mostly a joke" - I'm getting the sense he threw out a strangely-worded scenario hoping that he could perhaps get some money. If he was serious about getting money, and he's primarily a software developer and not a negotiator, it would've been lovely if he had gotten proper counsel for this negotiation.
He wasn't expecting to float the idea! This literally came up during the call. He did not decide days before that he was going to offer to sell his company. He cannot hire outside counsel for something he is not thinking about.
Was the full call released somewhere? As i've only heard the 3 minute snippet.
Fair enough. It just isn't the slam dunk that the post makes it out to be. He made some extremely vague proposition that can easily be misinterpreted and it was ultimately unproductive.
The claim still stands, given that in the same call Reddit immediately and openly admitted that they misinterpreted him, only to later turn around and lie about it.
It’s not like the person on the other end of the line had no idea exactly what he was proposing. Even if the dev isn’t experienced at negotiating something like this you can bet the person on the other end of the line was.
Actually, I'm not sure if it's entirely clear to anyone on the other side (or even the world at large) how to value something. To a large extent, Reddit has drunk the cool aid and internalized that APIs are worth X. So going to a meeting with the implicit assumption that everyone knows that pricing is BS is not a safe assumption. They've already had the pricing discussion, so throwing more oblique references to BS pricing is not productive. It's like in a normal human argument. Once you are at an impasse, throwing more facts or presenting a logical paradox doesn't change the other person's mind.
The actual amounts were irrelevant to the offer. The author was clearly trying to feel out whether Reddit would be open to a buyout.
The response seems to be a resounding no.
> Why is he beating around the bush so much ?
He is asking for clarification, something you do when you have a good business relationship with someone.
> He wants to sell, shut down, or whatever for a $10M payout.
He doesn't. He is saying that 20$M is clearly overpriced and that if it was true then reddit would come up with a ludricous number like 10M to make that API be turned off. He just uses quiet because reddit described the API use as Loud.
It's not an offer, it's calling someone's bluff out.
Think in poker someone says "my hand is worth 20 million" and you got pretty good cards you would tell them "go all in because I am gonna keep covering whatever you raise" and then they do not go All In, you got a pretty good case to think their initial comment was not true.
Bad negotiation because the other end owns the platform, has all the leverage. Apollo simply cannot stand up and leave the table, which is what reddit predictably did.
Let that be the lesson: don't sink your time (and money) into building OSS (or a business) on top of a platform. It's like building on sand.
This guy had a job he loved running his own business for 8 years. Yes, it can get taken away in an instant, but that doesn’t seem like a terrible deal to me in hindsight.
Not sure I agree. Apollo is apparently monetizing these users above and beyond what Reddit is/was able to accomplish. I’m confident that this represents value to Reddit > 0. So Reddit may have leverage, but not all the leverage.
If you have a quick and high return, it can be very much worth it.
The business plan and your personal savings should reflect that it can (and will) disappear in an instant.
I genuinely don't understand the "pay me 10 million to save half on 20 million of costs" negotiation tactic... if they wanted to save money, why wouldn't they just shut down the API access?
20 million/year is how much the Apollo users would bring in when served ads (the opportunity costs).
Reddit pays Apollo 10M, starts serving their ads in the app, and now rakes in 20M/year without any extra effort.
Conversely, now they need to convince all the angry users of Apollo to come back to use their shitty website/app, something that will never happen. A lot of people that aren’t even using Apollo are going to be angry at the mistreatment and leave the site altogether. On the whole it’s quite likely that Reddit’s losses will amount to more than the 10M they’d have to pay once to get a ton of money in the future.
That sounds like a reasonable benefit to bargain over, but only if you have a great negotiator to make it happen.
Wouldn’t happen. $20M number is completely BS.
That’s on Reddit. The exact number doesn’t really matter for purposes of this explanation, and I suspect it doesn’t really matter to the Apollo creator either. It could be 2M or 500K, the equations remain the same.
The whole thing was just to illustrate the point that he thinks the Apollo API access is worth nowhere near $20 million a year in opportunity cost.
They say somewhere that the 20m is from opportunity cost, so 10m for an app that's "costing" them 20m a year would be a deal.
Exactly. They’re not doing the deal because the $20M is complete BS.
It's not a negotiation tactic. It is a joke because the numbers they are talking about are a joke. He's saying that if they think Apollo is can make Reddit 20 million a year then just pay him 10 million and they can keep the change. The truth is both sides know these numbers are b*llsh*t.
if they wanted to save money, why wouldn't they just shut down the API access
They are. They're just pretending they aren't. No one is going to pay the amount they're charging.
I’m a lawyer and listening to this call was absolutely painful. I like to think I’m a pretty decent negotiator, and agree that there was likely a few million here were this handled competently.
Don’t be afraid to bring people in when something is outside your area of expertise.
His app icon was showcased front and center at the WWDC keynote, something I always thought was bought with money, for (I assume) free. It has tons of users including paying users. I have a very hard time imagining being able to sell the app right now for less than 10 figures. All this fight has shown me is that people will gladly pay for this app monthly
If he's leaving all that on the table out of spite, well thats his money to lose. But he shouldn't call the world unfair
As he mentions in the post, the main issue is the 30-day timeframe to completely rethink the business model of the app and move enough users over to paying subscriptions to not go bankrupt when the first API access bill comes in. The suggested API fees also seem quite unrealistic and it's unclear whether enough users would be willing to pay the necessary monthly fees to cover them.
Reddit's actions here make it pretty clear that they just want the app (all third-party apps) to shut down — if they actually wanted a solution they could easily lower the pricing to something more realistic and/or give a slightly longer transition period.
When our app has been featured in WWDC moments, it's at the discretion of Apple. I don't believe that it's paid, but more Apple choosing what they think are quality examples of apps to motivate developers.
>something I always thought was bought with money,
No. Apple chooses this on their own. Their internal teams find new and interesting apps, songs, etc.
When they announced the iPhone X, they used a band without telling them before. They asked the band to send them some music samples and just a generic "this might end up on an Apple marketing material one day". The band was shocked when it turned out to be THE song on THE intro video for the iPhone X.
Apollo still have some value. If there is another online mass migration, like with Digg, he can connect Apollo to whatever comes next. Maybe he even can affect the decision with his user base. Lemmy could over night have a much larger user base if Apollo switched to them.
Well done to Christian for remaining calm, professional, and engaging with this process in an honest way, standing up for his users, but not attacking Reddit or its staff with emotion, just stating facts and holding them to account in a considered way. He comes across as a mature individual and one that I'm sure many would want to deal with in business or hire as an engineer or leader.
In a way, Reddit couldn't have asked for a worse outcome, they have come out looking terrible and he has come out looking great and defining the community discussion.
Apollo is such an incredibly high quality app — in fact, it’s so good that I haven’t had it installed on my phone in a couple of years because when I have it I spend way too much time on Reddit.
The features, the polish, the customizability — everything about it is really top notch.
I always enthusiastically recommended it to my friends telling them it felt more like a native first-party Apple app than any actual native first-party Apple app.
I agree. I'm not a mobile dev but I am a software dev and I'm continually impressed by how good an app Apollo is. It's one of the apps I use that seem like they should be the standard for quality.
Totally agree. In fact, it was so good it allowed me to enjoy Reddit far more than I could have without it. And spend far more time on Reddit than I would have. Killing Apollo kills my desire to use Reddit.
That’s one advantage of the janky mobile site and the official app — I spend way less time on Reddit!
I use both Apollo for iOS and Sync on Android and I would give the edge to Sync for polish, aesthetics and customizability.
.........aaaaaaand Reddit Sync "will shut down on June 30, 2023"
RIP
https://www.reddit.com/r/redditsync/comments/144jp3w/sync_wi...
I had never heard of it before this. Could he just make a backend for it and take his users with him?
He addressed it in the post, he's not really interested in that kind of work.
Technically possible, but not really feasible due to the way Reddit is set up and people who signed up for the app agreed to. It would be a gigantic mess, and I reckon he's not interested in creating a new social platform/link aggregate which is why he would rather refund the ~$250k.
You should read the post, he addresses this in it.
This never struck me as a realistic option. The Apollo user base is orders of magnitude less than Reddit, and, even though Apollo is an incredible iOS app, the primary benefit of a large social network like Reddit is the social network.
Might be a pretty big legal argument if he just copied Reddit backend functionality. Would probably have to redesign the front end from the ground up as well to make it clear it’s not just a rip off.
I don't remember the specific case at the moment, but a few years back I think Oracle was suing Google (or some mix of big companies) about Google replicating the Java api but with a complete from-scratch backend reimplementation. Google wasn't using private Oracle source code, just building a replacement that used the publicly published api. Google won the case, and it I remember right that established public api's as non copyright or something. Again, not a lawyer and someone else probably has the details better than I do.
But reddit is so much more than an API… and I can’t imagine anyone wants to deal with the user-generated-content hell of actually hosting that kind of platform.
Google could afford it. They're still in sore need of a good social network.
No need for a front end, he’s got the app, that’s the whole point
I don’t think cloning products is illegal, and can’t find any patents held by Reddit.
I see two pretty distinct issues here: 1) most people's favourite app is going to die, and 2) many subreddits will be negatively affected by this move: prime example is /r/AskHistorians.
Personally, 1) is not really an issue and people are enjoying the outrage train, and that's ok and valid and whatever, but it's a third party app. It's a no-brainer decision to try to kill it if it's hindering your ability to make more money. At the mid term is a great incentive for Reddit to improve their shitty app experience ("but Ads!" yeah, ads of course, you're not paying shot for using it, it's an impopular but pragmatic business model)
But 2) it's the one that's really concerning. Hopefully they reverse this course for this point specifically cause this has a measurable impact on eyeballs, which ultimately means money.
inb4: "Apollo dying means less eyeballs too dummy", yeah as I mentioned before the outrage is the fad. Once it passes, will see how much people actually leaves (little to none alternatives for Reddit btw). My bet is that could result in a small hump, if anything, in the long run.
That is of course their right, but they way they went about it is really scummy. Third-party apps, and the user-contributed content they engendered, built Reddit. Without its users, Reddit has nothing, is nothing. Just another forum site.
They could have simply said "Due to business pressures, we're going to stop offering our API in 1 year" and honestly, nobody would have blinked an eye.
Or they could have said "Due to business pressures, we're going to include advertisements in the API. Any clients found deliberately not displaying the ads will have their API keys permanently revoked."
Or they could have said "Due to business pressures, we're going to stop offering free API access. Users who subscribe to Reddit can use their own personal API keys with a limit of 1000 calls per day."
They did none of those things; they raised prices to a point that was completely untenable and gave app developers 30 days to FOAD.
I think issue 3, especially in relation to a potential IPO, is Reddit's leadership again demonstrating a flippant willingness to lie and distort reality to suit their purposes and the carelessness to get caught doing it.
Surely there is a reasonable business case to be made for this policy change. Attempted character assassination of a 3rd party developer with blatant falsehoods, not so much. I dunno, maybe they aren't worried and there's plenty of investors an wall street ready to hand over big bags of money to a demonstrated liar.
> Most people's favourite app is going to die
Why is this not an issue for user's protesting? I use Relay for Reddit on Android and I think it's absolutely the best way to view Reddit on mobile if you're a fan of old.reddit.com.
That app is going to die and I say screw them. I owe reddit nothing. If they want to turn the site into something that I don't want to use because it makes them more money that way. Good luck with that but I won't be around to see it.
I'd gladly pay for Reddit Premium (which has no ads) to continue to use 3rd party apps that I like. But it's not about the money or the ads -- it's about control.
That's ok, you've certainly used their services for free, as most of us, and they don't owe you anything.
I get the feeling that some people are trying to spin this into a crusade of sorts, I fully get this feeling from your words.
And there's nothing inherently wrong with that I guess, but look a the big picture as well: you've used the services of a private company for years, paying zero cents. They made a business decision after potentially delaying it for years, and you rant about control. This outrage makes little sense, we don't own Reddit, never had. We're just making noise because some of us confused private property for their own.
I absolutely get your point. I'm not saying they're not free to make whatever business decisions they want -- of course they are. And, of course, I want Reddit to be profitable and survive.
But if they're profitability involves alienating me as a user then I'm going to be alienated and I'm going to act like I'm alienated. I think the outrage makes perfect sense in this case. I'm equally outraged at other companies doing things that manipulate their customers for a tiny bit more profit (like shrinkflation).
Ironically they could have turned this situation into profit from me as I'm happy to pay for Reddit if it was required to allow me to use it in the way that I'm accustomed. Instead of embracing me as a customer, they want me gone.
Valid point. I think people are turning this into a 'crusade' partly because they are just shocked and appalled by the way Reddit handled this whole thing.
In the end, it's their site and their decision to make, but it's understandable many people are upset by their actions and no longer want to use the site (which, btw, even if you were using it for "free" you may have been contributing in other ways via posts, comments, moderation, etc).
It also means losing potential customers - I would have been willing to upgrade to Reddit Premium to continue using Apollo, for example, but now I wouldn't even consider it.
> And there's nothing inherently wrong with that I guess, but look a the big picture as well: you've used the services of a private company for years, paying zero cents.
While that's not false, look at it the other way: I've provided content for a private company for years, taking zero payment. Millions of us have. Reddit lives and dies by user submissions and comments, and taking what seems to be a stance that's wildly hostile to users feels very foolish to me.
To me that makes even less sense. You provided that content knowingly for free, voluntarily, fair and square. No one forced you to, it wasn't an unfair nine to five job. You decided to do it.
Can you realistically expect to have some sort of return, wether in control or whatever for that? It feels more aligned to a tantrum rather than a coherent argument. Have we consiously forget how Web 2.0 works?
What is causing #2? Do the mods use Apollo exclusively or something?
The change isn't about Apollo exclusively, Reddit is going to start charging for their API. Basically all remotely adequate (which Reddit's 1st party tools aren't) moderation tools make extensive use of said API, so Reddit has basically decided "Hey, people who do most of the work necessary to keep our platform afloat for free, mind if you start paying us for the privilege?"
Cue people being understandably upset.
Not Apollo (though some might) but tons of moderation extensions and tooling which goes through the api.
https://reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/142w159/askhisto... covers the moderation side.
https://reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/13zr8h2/reddits_recently... Talks about accessibility.
Here's the take by the mentioned AskHistorians: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/142w159/askh...
Most communities rely on third party moderation services and tools which will also be impacted by the API changes. Many have said that moderating larger communities will be untenable without them.
Yep. While I'm not 100% positive, I also think mods that have certain disabilities (like blindness) rely on the app extensively.
> It's a no-brainer decision to try to kill it if it's hindering your ability to make more money
The no-brainer decision would be to make your app a lot better than any third-party app instead of pulling the rug from under people whose work has made reddit better in the long-run.
> 1) most people's favourite app is going to die
Third party apps representing less than 5% of Reddit's traffic, this is by far not "most people's" favorite app.
Maybe so. But this situation has been blown up so much that now more than 5% of Reddit's traffic probably has a sour taste in their mouth about how Reddit treats people. This is something that's going to affect a lot more than 5% of their traffic as mod tools, bots, and more go down.
DIGG Ver. 5!
Here's a wild thought. What I would love to happen is that one of these apps (Sync or Apollo) release a version of their app where a user can enter their own API key. This would put the cost of the API usage on to the individual user instead of the app owner and the app owner can continue to focus on the app UI/features without worry. It wouldn't change how they made money off these apps either.
Let's see what that would cost the average user.
As mentioned in the post:
$0.24 for 1,000 API calls, average 345 requests per day per user
I have no idea if they prorate charges if you use less than 1000 calls so lets assume they don't, so the minimum daily cost for a user is $0.24.
$0.24 per day, for a 30 days is: $7.20
Hmm, I can't see many people wanting to pay that monthly.
Maybe if reddit had a lower tier (0.12 for 500 calls would be $3.60/month)
Here’s an anecdote. I was subscribed to ChatGPT Plus for a while, to get access to GPT4.
I stopped subscribing after after I got GPT4 API access because I developed a little personal app which used the OpenAI API to just read and write directly from plain text files and that suits my workflow better than the ChatGPT website.
But it sucks because I’m constantly thinking about how much I’m using, and how many tokens I’m putting into my query, because each API call costs me money. It was way nicer just paying a flat fee and using it “as much as I want”, even though this actually costs me way less because I use don’t use $20USD worth of API calls in a month, even with GPT4.
It would be a nightmare to use Reddit if it cost money to scroll down or post a comment. On the other hand, that might actually be a good disincentive to help me spend less time on it.
I had the same reaction when Kagi search changed their pricing to a fixed number 1,000 searches per month for $10. I couldn’t imagine trying to use search thinking “is this one worth searching for?”
… I now pay $25 for their unlimited option even though I probably use less than 1k searches per month anyways
Good news on that- they’re experimenting with lower cost unlimited right now; people who had an annual membership before the switch are back to unlimited searches for now.
Which is why when designing pricing "per use" pricing models, prefer something like $0.0001 per search, or $15/month, whichever is less in a month
If I was designing such an app I would prominently display your ongoing monthly costs and add a budget/limit feature.
My problem isn’t that I’m worried I’m spending too much, I know for a fact that I’m spending less than I did on ChatGPT Plus, I can check my usage regularly, and I do.
My problem is that before I send each query, I think to myself “is this worth a fraction of a penny?” and, when I have a bunch of follow up queries, I think “the previous query/response history is getting pretty big, should I trim some of it before I send my next query?” or “Should I skimp on this one and just use GPT3.5?”
This is the same reason I can't ever see microtransactions for news sites gaining traction. While I can't afford to subscribe to every news site I would like to, I also don't want to have to decide whether every news article I might read is going to be worth my penny before I read it. So I stick with the status quo of subscribing to a couple of key sites and skipping out when I hit a paywall. It's suboptimal for both sides but I can't see pay per article working any better realistically.
I completely take your point, and would _love_ some kind of negative externality to keep from scrolling to much. I'd see that as a positive.
Don't forget that they're getting their tokens from an OAuth endpoint. In otherwords it's already tied to a specific user. Reddit could have simply said "third party api support is only for reddit gold users".
The main issue is there isn't enough time to implement such a solution. You have to develop this new system of handling API keys, communicate this change to customers, develop a process to migrate users, and figure out what to do with people who paid for an entire year of access 3 months ago. All of that is a herculean task for a small dev team to accomplish in 30 days.
That's not even dealing with the fact that this process would be difficult for users to actually use, and may run afoul of Apple's app store rules.
While that solution may be appealing to tech-savy end users, it's completely untenable for a popular app, especially given the tight time window required.
> All of that is a herculean task for a small dev team to accomplish in 30 days.
Why 30 days? I mean, I know that Reddit announced that that's when they'll kill the API... but that's a completely arbitrary deadline.
A Twitter client I used (Spring) had that, and it worked for months after Twitter killed off Tweetbot and all other clients.
However, it naturally stopped working when Twitter basically killed the free tier of their API.
It would likely still work on the "Basic" API tier, but I'm not paying $100 a month to use a Twitter app.
I remember Falcon Pro doing this 10 years ago when it hit Twitter's 100,000 user limit on its token. You could press 4 secret buttons in the corners of the login screen and it would take you to a secret page where you could put your own tokens.
> I have no idea if they prorate charges if you use less than 1000 calls so lets assume they don't, so the minimum daily cost for a user is $0.24.
The way these things work nearly everywhere is that $0.24 for 1000 API calls means your cost in a given billing period for N API calls during a billing period is 0.24 ⌈N/1000⌉ or 0.24 N/1000. The first is if they do not prorate, the second is if they do.
If it takes on average 345 requests per day per user, that would be 10 500 per month per user, which would be $2.64 per month per user if they do not prorate and $2.52 per month per user if they do prorate.
This is an interesting option. I'd assume the added friction for an average user will drop the Apollo user base drastically, but it would still allow it to stay alive.
I'm not a user of Apollo, and honestly have been perfectly fine using old.reddit.com on both mobile and desktop.
That said, while I realize it's just his side of the story, the Apollo developer comes across as imminently reasonable and rational (and he apparently has the receipts to back it up), while Reddit comes across as embodying typical corporate greed. On a related note, I think everyone should understand that, in the long term, "Don't be evil" is simply impossible for large corporations - the incentives are just too strong to prioritize short/medium term revenue growth over user experience.
In any case, while I don't think the people shouting "I'm done with Reddit" will make much of a dent in Reddit's overall usage numbers, I personally am deleting my account and blocking reddit on my devices. If anything I think this drama gave me a nice little push to take more control over my time that will make me happier in the long run.
Reading the transcripts and listening to the audio and seeing how Reddit is behaving is a fucking wild ride.
I use old.reddit.com on mobile and desktop so I'm not directly effected by these changes aside from the likely steep decline in moderation quality as longstanding mods lose their tools.
I feel compelled to migrate from reddit and only utilize it as a resource for knowledge when it's the only resource for some obscure niche thing or sub-culture. That last statement alone speaks volumes about the danger of centralizing communities as reddit has done.
Maybe a federated internet is back on the table for the future.
Reddit for amusement is a blackhole.
For the best really to leave.
I second this. I’ve deleted all the social media, except Reddit. When I see an organisation acting like this - its toxicity. Deleting reddit. I look forward tothe hours of my life back.
Bye bye.
Two quotes come to my mind.
1. From Marcus Aurelius, "The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts."
There's a lot of toxicity to the comments and opinions within the userbase of reddit. I remove that pool of thought from my lived life and arguably my happiness ought to increase.
2. From Epictetus, "It is the nature of the wise to resist pleasures, but the foolish to be a slave to them." I'll admit do a lot of mindless browsing on reddit. In the past I've used site blockers to block loading reddit for me and I'd have the muscle memory of cmd+t then typing in "old" to load reddit. That all too common doomscroll of post after post, reading comment after comment, still has a pronounced grip on me. It would serve me well to reclaim that time and my unconscious self away from reddit.
This APIgate honestly, in an entirely self-serving way I'm thankful for it. For it to give pause to reflect on my own relationship with reddit.
If they're doing this, old.reddit.com is on the chopping block too, might as well get ahead of that sooner than later.
I know this whole situation is doing a lot of harm and there's a lot hurt over for folks, especially financially, but I'll take this as an opportunity to grow.
> There's a lot of toxicity to the comments and opinions within the userbase of reddit.
I think there's something weird that goes on with having a sub be a part of a whole and subject to the norms of the whole to some degree. Subs can keep things good, but it takes effort. There's some subs I'm part of where it's just super toxic all around. Part of that is because of the nature of the sub (for a game where the users constantly feel ignored and a little put upon by the devs), but that only partially explains how bad it gets.
also an exclusively old.reddit user - and my account is 17 years old...
But I deleted my primary account some months ago *after an admin hijacked my mod status* in a sub that has 2MM users...
EDIT:
>>I'm not a head mod for any subreddit. But I do mod a few. It seems to me that reddit could simply replace the mods on subreddits that close down and force them open again.
Was posted in that thread - and this is precisely what they did to me after being top mod for TEN YEARS
https://i.imgur.com/6Y5u7O7.png
as far as I am concerned, /u/spez can go eat a dead baby as he so much stated in the early days of /r/cannabilism. Maybe reddit WILL be the dead baby he gets to eat.
-
I have never used a 3rd party app - but everyone always spoke highly of apollo - but this post just shows that apollo's founder has more class than the entirety of reddit's staff (or at least c-suite) combined.
I imagine they got some sort of 'consultant' or some stupid MBA firm like McKinsey or something telling them their KPIs were failing...
They needed to increase the revenues from their API to pay the consulting fees for their 'experts'
And frankly - reading the comments from spez and other reddit respondents in that thread, read like the idiots in Succession when they went to LA
What browser do you use for mobile? I just tried old.reddit on Brave and Firefox mobile and it was.....not pleasant, relative to my current 3rd party app.
For desktop, it's the best, and I'll seriously consider ditching Reddit for good when it's killed, but it seems to be extremely poorly optimized for mobile (unsurprisingly)
I use old.reddit on iOS safari, works well
I can’t access any other form of Reddit using mobileSafari. It’s bizarre, and probably intentional.
I would not be surprised if they announce an end to support for Old Reddit soon. They are gearing up for an IPO and want to get rid of all the non-moneymaking cruft.
Essentially what they are doing is trying to reach equilibrium in terms of users and income sources so it all looks tight on the books. They won’t IPO until they can figure out final changes in user numbers, etc.
> "Don't be evil" is simply impossible for large corporations
I see Patagonia as the antithesis of this broadly accepted assertion.
It's possible, it just takes having a goal for your company that's more than greed.
Patagonia is pushing polyester with its associated micro-plastics, instead of the renewable natural fibers that they were using before like wool. Good, evil, depends on who is counting.
Patagonia is clear about that decision though [1]. Microplastics are bad but not the whole story. They still offer natural fibers which have their own problems. I don't think this is Patagonia chasing short term profits, I think they are trying to remain true to their corporate goals.
[1]: https://www.patagonia.com/stories/an-update-on-microfiber-po...
Their statement sounds and looks good at first, but the actions amount to: you should keep buying our products, you should buy a new washing machine, you should buy a filter and we will keep thinking about it.
Patagonia do make high performance plastic products for activities where performance matters and in a better way than most, but have not been a performance focused company for decades. The original breakthrough of using plastic fleece in the wilderness due to it's non water absorbing properties doesn't really justify the size of their production with those materials today. They make most of their money selling plastic fleeces for people to wear to coffee shops. This segment of the market didn't realy exist before brands like Patagonia so they while they may offer a better alternative today, they are helped to create this particular problem.
And if you've ever seen their clearance lists, they're as bad as other fashion companies for overproduction - new colours every season which need to make way the following season.
Replacing plastics in their casual ranges and extending the lifecycles of the colours alone would make a bigger difference than a couple of research grants, but is risky for sales and less sexy. So take those statements with a pinch of salt.
I'm confused on what you think Patagonia should do differently. Should I boycott them for some reason? Should I feel bad about wearing their products? How bad are they environmentally on the scale of all apparel manufacturers from worst to best? Is Cotopaxi ok?
It seems to me the point is that they could do many things that would be better for the earth, but would impact short term or medium term numbers. And this is in contrast to the claim that Patagonia is somehow unlike other corporations.
They’re not. They’re also “evil” in this way. Perhaps less so. But it’s a property of money making endeavors to prioritize making money.
Can you name those things? Where are we supposed to get our clothes?
Patagonia helped Samsung modify their washing machines to reduce microplastic pollution: https://www.fastcompany.com/90904159/why-patagonia-helped-sa...
Not a perfect company, I mean almost all of their iconic garments are plastic, but they're doing far more than other technical outerwear companies.
I have one of their “iconic” puffy jackets. I bought it cheap at a gear swap because it has a tiny rip. That has never worsened, which I believe is a property of the material. The polyester is quite durable.
I wear it about a third of the year here in Seattle. In the five years I have owned it I have washed it maybe once and possibly never. I don’t even wear it in the rain often because I have a rain shell which is also plastic and also doesn’t get washed.
I do also have some hemp pants from Patagonia. I wear those often. They made it about three years before they needed to go in to have pockets repaired from cell phone damage. Those fibers require farm land and water to grow. Repairs help mitigate that damage but it still exists.
I’m honestly not sure which garment has the most negative effect on the environment.
It's hard to get to the billion dollar size and do literally zero things that anyone could criticize on moral grounds.
I would assert that there does not exist a company which is both larger than Patagonia, and more moral than they are.
Least bad is not necessarily good.
Do you believe Patagonia has done net harm or net good in the world?
It depends on how much harm their microfibers and microplastics have done to however many number of people who ingested them.
Doesn’t it depend on everything?
You could also say least bad is not necessarily bad. It's a platitude.
> Good, evil, depends on who is counting.
I'm gonna use that statement from now on.
Isn’t Patagonia privately owned though?
Not just privately owned, but given away irrevocably by said owner to charity, and done in a way that intentionally incurred a large tax bill.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/14/climate/patagonia-climate...
Chouinard is probably marginally better than your average billionaire, but it was almost certainly not done in a way that didn't also very clearly benefit him, and, more importantly, his family.
https://qz.com/patagonia-s-3-billion-corporate-gift-is-also-...
That NYT piece is, more or less, a fluff piece; and, it's also worth noting, this same maneuver is frequently used in ways that are probably seen less "charitably," given the political influence 501(c)(4)s' potentially wield.
Reading that interview, it just sounds like a tax-optimized donation. It still causes him to give up wealth that he could have kept, but he's minimizing the loss. Is this not the case? If it is for pure personal financial gain, should we expect Jim Simons to pull a similar maneuver with Ren Tech at some point?
You do realize that I'm responding to someone that made the assertion, also implied in the NYT article, that this "donation" was "done in a way that intentionally incurred a large tax bill." Right? What you're saying directly contradicts that, which was my point...
This was very obviously not done "for pure personal financial gain..." But should billionaires be able to donate billions, tax-free, to exert political influence, which, generally (though, with rare exceptions, like perhaps Chouinard), they will use to directly benefit themselves and their family? And, should they be able to do so in a way that maintains that political influence for their family for generations to come?
Maybe Chouinard and his family have good intentions, but, like the article said, "one doesn’t want a constructed tax system predicated upon everyone being like the Chouinards."
nothing wrong with benefiting yourself and your family - the problem is doing that unfairly at the expense of someone else, which it appears he has tried hard not to do here.
Adam Connover has a video that pretty directly contradicts this assertion. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in-between. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cu6EbELZ6I
It's healthy to have a skepticism of "rich" people, but I think it's really uncharitable to view Chouinard's career as mere wealth accrual for wealth's sake. To not view him as a role model for how business can be ethical is, IMO, a missed opportunity.
Chouinard's goal was for his mission (the raison d'etre for Patagonia – to make high quality goods for outdoor activities, and to use the profits from this venture to protect outdoor spaces) to outlive his personal stewardship of Patagonia's control.
When that's your goal, the set of options available is rather narrow. You have to pass on control to people you trust, whom you've developed strong relationships with, and whom you trust to evolve and pass that mission down to the next generation. Most importantly, you want to avoid the kind of grifters that Patagonia has been allergic to in its history.
Plus, Patagonia already has a rich synergistic history of funding activism. It's not at all comparable to Gates, Carnegie, or Rockefeller who made their money and decided what "good" to spend it on in two discrete steps. For Patagonia, the most important thing is effective stewardship over an already-sailing ship
Chouinard has written a lot of material that you can read for yourself and form your own opinion on. He's remarkably direct and transparent, there aren't really smoke and mirrors to navigate.
That being said, anything he does with his "wealth" (itself an absurd idea, as he would never liquidate Patagonia shares and still never has) is going to rhyme with what other powerful people do with their wealth. You have to judge the people, not just the structures they're working within.
Conover is currently acting as mediator for the WGA strike. He has as much of an agenda as Chouinard.
I didn’t know this before and now I’m inclined to buy Patagonia items at every opportunity.
Seriously- I’ve had my eye on a Patagonia black hole duffle and now I’ll pull the trigger.
If you are an REI member, they often have stuff in the used (Garage) site that is in excellent quality and also less expensive. Patagonia also has worn wear that does the same thing. Win-win - awesome stuff, no need to make a new one for you, and less expensive!
- The guy who now has too many nanopuff jackets, but I will die on this hill.
I found out about worn ware a couple weeks ago. I am now accruing nanopuff jackets at a dangerous clip.
Kinda ironic that the good deeds of Patagonia were written about on a website that we cannot even read because there is a paywall to access the information. Talk about seeing two sides of a spectrum haha.
That's the thing. A privately owned company can keep its morals if it has them, because the owners don't answer to anyone else. But as soon as a company accepts Venture Capital funding, or goes public, morals go out the window. The original owners no longer have control, and can't decide what the goal of the company is anymore. The goal is now to make money in whatever method is possible.
Remember this whenever you see founders say that they didn't betray their original agreements. They betrayed those agreements as soon as they accepted VC funding or public trading, because that's when they agreed to lose control of the direction of the company.
I don’t know the details of Patagonia’s ownership either now or before they put it in the trust, but Reddit is also privately owned (for now, anyway).
So is Reddit
You are right, but as others have noted, I should have put a caveat on my assertion that the incentive mismatch is really there for companies with "outside owners", either in the form of a publicly traded company or large VC/PE investors.
If you keep a company private, and you don't take sizable outside funding, you can pretty much do whatever you want with your company.
Patagonia didn't take VC money, and reddit wouldn't have even survived this long if they hadn't
> and reddit wouldn't have even survived this long if they hadn't
The parts of Reddit that people actually like – a single lightweight web app (old.reddit.com) minus all the fluff (constant redesigns, broken video player, live streaming service, overengineered mobile apps, avatars, NFTs, coins/gifts, social networking, chat, clubhouse competitor, expensive acquisitions) – would have survived perfectly well without VC money.
How so? It costs money to store & retrieve this content, at reddit scale (100m active monthly?). Ads clearly weren't paying enough of the bills, so what's the next best option?
Reddit made $500M in revenue last year, yet is unprofitable. The reason isn't its AWS bill, but the "must 5x every year no matter what" mentality of their VCs who are looking for their exit. This pushes companies to overhire, add useless features and waste money on user acquisition just to chase that growth chart and have a successful IPO roadshow.
You know: solving the engineering problem you just described...
How true is that honestly?
The more I talk to people the more I feel like people just like to party/waste money more than work.
> The more I talk to people the more I feel like people just like to party/waste money more than work.
Is... that a surprise to you?
Fashion companies like Patagonia and online social platforms like Reddit are radically different with how they interact with network effects.
Fashion benefits from exclusivity and brand identity. It behooves Patagonia to brand itself as "not evil" or "not capitalist" or whatever, it's ultimately a fashion statement.
Social networks suffer from exclusivity, and brand identity is an afterthought. I'd wager that most Reddit users have a neutral/negative view of the Reddit brand, but they use Reddit anyways because of network effects (everyone is there) and the brand doesn't really impact their favorite subreddits. There have been many attempts at "exclusive" social networks with carefully crafted brand identity, and they always fail.
There's a theory that social media also has fashion phases, but I don't think we have enough data to back that up. MySpace lasted about 6 years. Facebook is 19 and Twitter is 17 and both are going strong.
> the Apollo developer comes across as imminently reasonable and rational
honestly that's why Apollo is one of the rare apps I've actually fully paid for - iamthatis aka Christian is such a solid dude, always keeps his cool, no drama, gets his work done, cares about his users, like - it's a tragedy that Reddit is killing off his masterwork. They ought to be hiring him to do their mobile apps for them.
I turned on my 1Blocker app for ios to block Reddit for the first time in months after this drama.
I only name drop the app because it has served me well for ad blocking and custom rules (like blocking Reddit).
I think the users that will be leaving reddit are worth 100 normal reddit users in terms of content value. Drain them and the rest will swirl down quickly.
This is an interesting point. I use free Apollo, and realized when I tried to post, that its a paid feature.
So you have to figure that all the revenue is largely from contributing users and the dynamics on social media go something like 5-10% of people post all the content. Also, i heard it has great tooling for mods as well.
We'll see how big of a blow this is but yeah, you're right, a lot of Apollo users are probably high value reddit users.
That’s an often overlooked factor. The mods that do all that free work for Reddit especially need good tools—which the official app is not.
you must be aware that old.reddit.com is on the chopping block in the next few months/years, right?
Is that official, or just an assumption?
There's been a great deal of talk about it on reddit after they closed i.reddit.com (Despite saying they wouldn't). It wont get announced officially, it will just vanish at some point.
I'm probably rationalizing here, but i.reddit.com was exceeeeeeeedingly old. It was an iOS 3.x era mobile web design that had never been updated.
And yet it was infinitely better than the monstrosity of the “modern” Reddit front end on mobile.
It was still far more usable than the enshittified ‘proper’ version of the mobile web that does nothing but nag you to use the even more aggressively enshittified app.
Just an assumption, but i.reddit.com was recently binned.
Honestly, I'd rather they do it sooner so I have a greater impetus to leave Reddit; to go outside and touch the grass for once.
FWIW there is suggestions that old.reddit.com is next on the chopping block. If that happens I dont think I could use the site anymore. The redesign is outright hostile.
I suspect as much too. Third party mobile clients dying saddens me for sure, but most of my usage is on old.reddit.com. When that inevitably goes away it'll be the true end for me. While I don't exactly look forward to the day, I'm oddly excited about the opportunity to put my time elsewhere. Maybe I'll finally start reading books again.
Yeah. I old.Reddit into specifics subs. Other than that it is too radicalized nowadays. Once you are starting out you care about user experience, but once you are too big to fail then you pretty much don’t care - see Facebook, Twitter, YouTube they all designed UI around how THEY want the user to use the platform instead of how user would actually want to use it.
I'm hoping at least we'll start to see some alternative communities to reddit pop up. I've been on the lookout for new smaller communities for a few years now, but the only interesting things I've found are a couple of Discord servers. While they are nice, Discord has a very different vibe from public anonymous forums.
There are plenty of old school forums. Example: I recently got into leatherworking. There are a couple of subreddits for it but also a large and active forum at https://leatherworker.net/forum/.
Reddit has discoverability and single sign on for a bunch of forums. It also has some fun nice to haves like a mixed feed of all your interests. But old school forums tend to be less commercial and sometimes can be a lot more tightly knit.
The biggest annoyance I have with old school forums is the single threaded nature of them. Reading through an entire 200 post thread to see if anyone actually responded to the one question that was asked in the third post is just incredibly inefficient and annoying.
For most corporations -- particularly the large ones -- I agree with you; however, there is also the B corporation route. Now, I have no idea if Reddit ever considered this path back in their earlier fund-seeking days, but it would have been an intriguing path had they done so.
I enjoyed the .compact version of old.reddit.com until they recently got rid of it. Since then my engagement has plummeted, which is probably a good thing...
I just logged into old.reddit.com w/Safari on iOS. The difference between that and Apollo is the difference between using reddit on my phone and not.
That said, I have to think something is wrong: I seem to have been served the desktop version in Safari. I do have 1Blocker and AdGuard running in Safari.
old.reddit no longer has a mobile version. The mobile interface was redirected to the new-style quite a while ago.
How long do you expect old.reddit.com to stick around after they force everyone to use their own app for mobile?
It’s why I like working for privately owned companies. They’re mostly about enriching the owner, but for that to happen optimally the company has to actually be functional.
I’m certain old.reddit will be next on it chopping block
"Imminently" reasonable and rational? What does that mean?
They mean "eminently" (i.e. "very")
Homophones strike again
They are not homophones, the first vowel is very different.
Well that's just like your opinion man
Uhm no, I checked the IPA transcriptions given by dictionaries.
Eminently.
I'm sorry but how exactly is it being evil to shut down 3rd party clients that use your content and your bandwidth to make (huge amounts of) money off of you?
Reddit owes absolutely nothing to those developers. This guy has to reimburse 250K of subscriptions, meaning he made millions, if not tens of millions, off of exploiting the API while not displaying Reddit's ads.
Poor Apollo developer, he's going to have to wipe his tears with Benjamins and blow his nose with his silk disposable tissue.
1) Apollo exploited nothing. Reddit offered their API for free for years.
2) Sure, he made a ton of money running Apollo, doesn't make what Reddit did less scummy.
3) No requirement, but it's largely accepted as courtesy to notify developers of any changes to the API policy, especially when it comes to pricing. Giving the developer only 30 days to rework their business model, change app architecture/design/code, pass App Store Reviews with Apple/Google, migrate subscribers to a higher-priced tier to afford the increase in pricing, and more is tantamount to spitting in their face. Especially when it's a drastic change from 8+ years of more or less the same.
4) Even if the developer did update pricing to be able to afford the new API rates, the developer himself stated he would have to be $50,000/month in the red for months while he waits for current subscription holders to have their subscription terms expire and renew at the increase rate, and that doesn't count lost subscribers who just decide to not renew.
5) Reddit admins and their CEO slandered the developer in interviews, outright lied, and got caught as the developer recorded the audio of all of their calls proving those lies. Reddit has done this stuff before (Back in 2016 the CEO was caught editing comments critical of him in the production database).
6) Reddit has every right to do what their doing, as Apollo has every right to call them out on how shit this whole thing is, when just back in January they said they had no plans to change their APIs in the short or medium term.
Bad situation all around, but Reddit knows they're doing this to kill third-party apps. They just have to lie that they're being reasonable to save face so investors will buy them up when they go public in a few months.
> 3) No requirement, but it's largely accepted as courtesy to notify developers of any changes to the API policy, especially when it comes to pricing. Giving the developer only 30 days to rework their business model, change app architecture/design/code, pass App Store Reviews with Apple/Google, migrate subscribers to a higher-priced tier to afford the increase in pricing, and more is tantamount to spitting in their face. Especially when it's a drastic change from 8+ years of more or less the same.
Doubly so if you've been repeatably telling developers you're not changing it & that developer has reach out specifically to say I know you have an IPO soon. Anything we can do on our end.
If you read his post, he presents all the information you need to know that this isn't true. Reddit themselves admitted that the cost isn't about server/bandwidth usage but opportunity cost per user on 3rd party apps. And it's not exploiting the API if you are using the API within the terms of service agreed to when registering the API token. Apollo wasn't exploiting or abusing anything.
Reddit had no mobile app for years, and yet a ton of mobile users on 3rd party apps. Their own mobile app used to be a 3rd party app that they bought out. So without even getting into other creative uses of the API, they definitely owe some of their popularity to 3rd party mobile app developers. How much? Who can really say how Reddit would have evolved if it had no public API.
Honestly, I'm surprised that spez kept his job after getting caught modifying user comments straight from the production db[0]. That's who these people are dealing with, to be clear. And now he's accusing Apollo of threatening Reddit? Give me a break. How is this the guy who's gonna lead Reddit to the promised land?
0: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...
I mean that was really stupid of him, but it seems like the kind of thing someone would do impulsively one time and then never again after getting reprimanded. Meanwhile, this API debacle has made me lose all respect for Reddit and its leadership — if everything the Apollo dev is saying is true, this is completely inexcusable. Reddit lied to the faces of the developers who trusted them and depended on them for their livelihood. I think the API thing is dramatically worse, and it isn’t close.
> I mean that was really stupid of him, but it seems like the kind of thing someone would do impulsively one time and then never again after getting reprimanded.
Only a founder would get reprimanded for manipulating production data, anyone else would get fired on the spot (as they should). I'm not here to argue which action is worse, I'm simply pointing out that this guy clearly has a control issue and poor judgment (which is common among CEO's, granted) and it's been obvious for years. Of course he's gonna distort his reality to suit his needs, that's what these guys do.
People don't learn when they get away with things like this, they just go bigger and crazier.
Uhm.. Sorry? This is something that you do one time impulsively? This is something that you do once and then never again, because you're out unless your company has unhealthy ethics.
Maybe a junior developer fresh out of college does it once and gets reprimanded and probably fired.
But the CEO? Who presumably presided over numerous discussions involving appropriate data access policies and risk to the company’s reputation? That’s shockingly juvenile and shortsighted.
> it seems like the kind of thing someone would do impulsively one time and then never again after getting reprimanded
Absolutely not at any serious company; fucking with user data is a major taboo.
There's no leeway for doing that at that level at that size of a company and business.
The comment editing in production is indefensible. However, there is legitimate reason to suspect the Apollo founder did suggest a monetary buyout in exchange for "going quiet". It is evident in the audio recording posted by the Apollo founder himself, top post of reddit at the moment.
What a weird take.
I haven't been able to find the comment again, but I am 95% certain he admitted to editing the production DB long before this incident. I think it was an IAMA with kn0thing, where they admitted something along the lines of editing the DB to fix typos in titles. Not quite as bad, but no surprise he continued the behavior.
> for about an hour
To be fair, this doesn't seem that bad, especially in comparison to the API price hike and their handling of it.
I can't believe people are pretending to be outraged about something so boring. Oh no, a forum admin trolled a user in a troll subreddit, qué horror!
The thread he changed the comments in was filled with users literally accusing multiple innocent people of being pedophiles who ate children, but sure, it's a bridge too far to change the user tag of comments literally threatening him rather than e.g. banning everyone who commented there or reporting the threats to the police which would have been well within his rights!
It’s also, like, Reddit. Not some financial or health database. It’s an Internet forum largely populated by literal children and teens.
Tbf, you could totally lose your job with a single edit if your identity is associated with your Reddit account. It would be very very very hard to argue with a straight face that the admins added a racial slur to your comment without sounding completely crazy and dishonest.
Sure - but none of that happened, and the possibility of that happening is exactly the same whether Huffman had trolled the dredge at TheDonald or not. Not everything in life is a slippery slope, it's often just best to weigh things on their own merits.
> Not everything in life is a slippery slope
However in this case...
He already admitted to changing post titles (in his own words to fix typos and other minor corrections). So he got the hang of modifying prod data with a "good cause" and once he had the know-how he turned around and sued it to edit someone's comment.
Had that not caused a big stir, maybe it would have become his new past time. maybe it has, maybe he goes back 5-6 years to comments you cannot reply to because the threads are locked and adds little jokes there, who knows cause he is now totally untrustworthy on this matter.
I don't disagree, if anything I think the whole thing was pretty funny when it happened. The outrage was pretty over the top too.
I'm just saying that it could be a dangerous thing to do, if only because it creates doubt and deniability.
I hope Apollo's not overplaying their hand here, though it's super interesting hearing these conversations from the inside. It's clear reddit's got it out for the 3p apps, and I'm personally leaving reddit over this (longtime RIF user), but this post is a bit concerning.
It focuses on the "[apollo can] quiet down [for $10M]" topic in the conversation, and the apparent misunderstanding between Apollo and Reddit, Reddit taking "quiet down" to mean "go away quietly, without a lot of public noise", as a threat.
Apollo states that they meant "go dark", "reduce API usage", "reduce reddit opportunity cost". But for that position to make sense, Apollo would need some leverage here. They're using Reddit's API and platform behind the scenes - they have no leverage I can see. What am I missing?
The angle was "buy Apollo from me":
> "If third-party apps are costing Reddit so much money, why don't they just buy them out like they did Alien Blue?" That was the point I brought up. If running Apollo as it stands now would cost you $20 million yearly as you quote, I suggested you cut a check to me to end Apollo. I said I'd even do it for half that or six months worth: $10 million, what a deal!
And it would have been a deal: 6 months of opportunity cost upfront to then turn into real profit. Instead they are permanently lose the [possibly] majority of that opportunity when those users lose access to Reddit.
Reddit would need to monetize those users, presumably by adding ads etc to Apollo, eventually turning Apollo into the Reddit app which already exists today (and which Apollo users don't want to use). Only the users willing to tolerate Reddit's enshittified UX would stick around.
Reddit can just force Apollo to shut down and accomplish the same for $10M less.
> Reddit would need to monetize those users
Apollo already has monetized users with subscription costs.
Well, had monetized users.
How do you think the Apollo users will lose access to Reddit?
The Apollo app makes API calls to their own server, which in turn makes calls to Reddit’s API. From 30 June this proxy server will not function.
I'm aware, but that doesn't cut off Apollo users from Reddit. They will just have to use a different app or the official app.
The key issue seems to be the 80/20 rule.
The 80% are anonymous lurkers or accounts that very rarely post anything.
The remaining 20% is split 15/5, with the former being frequent contributors to discussions - and the final 5% being _content submitters_ .
The 5% power users interact via 3rd party apps because, quite frankly, the "official" UIs (App, Website) are totally shite.
They also maintain the automated tooling to keep order of communities - again, accessed via API.
Without the 5% submitting content, the 15% won't interact and provide the remaining 80% material to read.
No material to consume = no advert page impressions = no revenue stream.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule, actually
Most of the other popular apps are also shutting down and the official app is garbage.
If I can't use Sync I'm not going to use reddit.
Almost all, if not all, third party clients are closing down, not just Apollo. The only option is a badly designed ad ridden experience now.
>And it would have been a deal: 6 months of opportunity cost upfront to then turn into real profit. Instead they are permanently lose the [possibly] majority of that opportunity when those users lose access to Reddit.
I dont think that is accurate. Reddit doesnt make 20M a year if they buy Apollo in this situation.
If something costs 20 million/yr to operate, buying it doesnt reduce that cost. You are just out 10M upfront and then 20M/yr.
The solution is not to buy it, but to make it stop.
This forces Reddit to say out loud that the reason they want to introduce payments is to make third party apps stop.
Reddit has to say that the pricing it has is reasonable which means that they have to say Apollo can earn (at least!) USD 20M a year. If Apollo can earn USD 20M a year, buying it for USD 10M is indeed a steal. Normally, if you think a company makes 20M a year, you have to pay at least x 5, so USD 100M to buy this money printing machine.
Claiming something costs you 20M/yr, doesn't mean that it can make 20M/yr.
>If Apollo can earn USD 20M a year, buying it for USD 10M is indeed a steal.
Not if you can get the same thing for doing nothing. Buy Apollo for 10M up front and make 20M/yr or dont buy Apollo and make 20M/yr. Does it really look like a steal when the alternative is free?
They seem to think the 20 million is payable.
Even if they could only get a quarter of that from users, they'd be rolling in money after a year or two.
> and then 20M/yr
The servers don't cost anywhere near that much to run.
Unless you use AWS :-)
> Reddit doesnt make 20M a year if they buy Apollo in this situation.
They claim that they would.
No, they claim Apollo costs them 20M/yr (agreeably dubious). That doesnt mean Apollo can make 20M/yr if reddit owns it.
Opportunity cost essentially means lost revenue. They (Reddit) aren't referring to server/egress/cloud/etc. costs. Eliminating lost revenue = new revenue.
>Opportunity cost essentially means lost revenue. They (Reddit) aren't referring to server/egress/cloud/etc. costs. Eliminating lost revenue = new revenue
Sure, but that doesn't mean buying/owning apollo helps them eliminate that lost revenue. They eliminate lost revenue when Apollo stops existing, not when they buy it. What is the point of buying it if you dont want it to exist?
Take 2 options:
A> Buy Apollo for $10M, Apollo shuts down, 20M new revenue
B> Don't buy Apollo, Apollo shuts down, 20M new revenue
Spending $10M doesn't stop the losses, Apollo shutting down does.
I utilized a JavaScript script to delete all of my comments and posts from the past ten years. Despite adding delays between deletions, it took multiple tries over several days because some posts kept reappearing.
I guess I want to emphasize that despite not being 3p client user (I was using old.reddit.com), this situation hurts sites reputation enough to bleed me as an user, enough for me to go through the trouble of actually wiping the account, in stead of leaving my content with me under <deleted>.
It is unlikely they'll feel short-term traffic effects of this, but content quality will suffer for sure, will see how that'll pan out. (From the safety of HN comments, of course).
According to the quotes by Reddit themselves, the 20M a year is opportunity cost, not actual cost.
agreed. Owning Apollo doesnt reduce the opportunity cost. They still lose 20M, but now they own Apollo.
There's no hand to overplay here anymore - the app is shutting down, and the author made it clear that is the intention. While the verbiage could've been different, that doesn't really matter. In these kinds of conversations Reddit folks could've asked for clarification, not assume bad intent (which they did, but then misrepresented).
Apollo's leverage was "We help keep power users on your platform, and keep them happy." And, as it turns out, while their numbers are not necessarily large, they are also some of the loudest and with most influence (see how many subreddits joined the blackout). What the outcome of this will be is to be seen, but it's a very shortsighted take from Reddit, in my own humble opinion.
In the game of Apollo vs No Apollo, agreed, the game is played out. Even if there's some eleventh hour agreement, reduction in API fees etc, the direction is clear - Reddit's killing these guys, just a question of when.
But in the game of Christian vs Spez/Reddit Corp, I wonder about the wisdom of posting these recordings and going this nuclear on Reddit's brand. I suspect Reddit's got some good lawyers, whether you're in the US or Canada.
Given how bad Reddit is at PR, this does seem possible.
If Apollo keeps operating, it charges its users more and pays reddit $20 million for one year, and presumably continues paying that into the future.
If Reddit purchases Apollo for $10 million, then those customers now belong to Reddit. For the first year, Reddit would "only" earn $20 - $10 = $10 million, but after that those customers would continue directly earning revenue.
It's all about reasoning with the value of the app in terms of the api rates. Either the rates are unreasonable, or that would be a reasonable sale to Reddit.
I'm not sure that math is right? If the API access actually costs reddit $20m/year then charging Apollo users $20m/year just offsets those costs. So in the first year they actually lose $10m, and just break even in following years. It only makes sense to buy Apollo if the api costs are low.
> If the API access actually costs reddit $20m/year
Do you think anyone believes that to be true?
Not at all. But it seems like the Apollo dev’s argument was “if it actually costs reddit $20m they why not buy Apollo for only $10m”, which doesn’t make sense.
This doesn’t make what reddit is doing any more reasonable though, imo.
The dev specifically said "opportunity cost" as they explained, so the suggestion is that reddit thinks there's that much revenue available.
Ah, that makes much more sense. But, it could be the case that reddit thinks someone will end up paying their outrageous fees, just not him. It doesn’t necessarily follow that they think Apollo is actually worth that much. Then again, if that’s the case it would be reasonable to work out some sort of discount that reflects the true value of the Apollo user base.
The post mentions that Reddit calculates a $20M/yr opportunity cost to allowing Apollo to continue running as-is. Apollo is trying to say that $10M one-time is a bargain if Reddit truly believes the users are worth $20M/yr.
I don't think Apollo is using this argument as some sort of leverage. Reading through the post, they seem well aware that they are defenseless. They only have the court of public opinion.
I’m an Apollo user and can’t stand Reddit in any other form anymore. Apollo stops working and I’m out.
I'm also an Apollo user and plan to leave Reddit. Honestly, I'm kind of glad I'm being pushed to leave. Reddit has become a complete cesspool since 2016, and has only gotten exponentially worse since then. While I really enjoy the niche subs I participate in, the large subs are just a breeding ground for extremist views on both sides as well as some of the craziest conspiracy theories around. Good riddance.
The point of the post is that Apollo has no more leverage after exhausting all other moves.
Apollo needs to launch its own backend IMO. Reddit itself isn't some technological marvel.
Bad move from Reddit's end. Apollo is one of my most used apps because I absolutely refuse to use the official app. Just like the new Reddit experience on desktop version, the mobile app is just as terrible. Clunky, slow, not user friendly. No thanks.
And exactly what are they losing from business perspective? Few users that generate only costs?
Most of the content on reddit is created by power users who are more likely to use 3rd party tools. Most people who use the official app only consume content.
So do they really use a phone app to produce this massive number of content?
Then again. I hate using my phone in general, so I always think that any content creators would use desktop and maybe old reddit.
No, but power users are disproportionately to be invested enough to use third-party clients. Further, many power users play key roles as moderators. Community moderators on Reddit rely extensively on API access to enable the moderation tools that Reddit never really built.
On the other hand, you might also expect that being so invested, they won't quit over third-party apps, time will tell.
I don’t think that is as much an issue as all of the potential issues that would be dragged up by discussing any of the questionable or explicitly illegal content hosted on Reddit. The first time anyone ever saw a Reddit mod was seeing an adult man argue it was ok for him to moderate a subreddit consisting solely pictures of underage girls titled jailbait.
Mods will definitely have a much more difficult time of it if all the useful moderation tools break.
I post a ton of comments on HN, and at times, on Reddit. I do it all from my phone because my desktop is for work and my mobile is for leisure.
I can type just as quickly on a phone as I can on desktop, and in many ways I prefer it.
Reddit was caught using AI to produce artificial content; so I guess that's what will happen.
A key element is moderation via automated tools using 3rd party access.
Imagine a free music festival with zero security. It would be chaos and the volunteer artists would stop performing.
Do you have a source for that? I am sure Reddit knows the truth and took that into account in their negotiations.
It’s an ads business, so the game is always “giving away a huge number of requests for free to monetize an extremely tiny portion of those requests.” So as soon as bean counters look at the books, it’s easy to be tempted to just identify cohorts of those requests that are unlikely to convert and cut off those users.
It takes someone who is more than just a bean counter to realize that maybe, just maybe, the only reason people are interested in those free requests in the first place is because of the communities on Reddit that bring all the actual value.
And who knows, maybe one day everyone will realize that the “free social media monetized by ads” business just totally sucks and can only ever lead to situations like this.
The 3rd party apps don't have ads which is surely a gigantic part of why they're being banned. I would guess that most Apollo users literally provide zero revenue as they use adblock on desktop and most people never actually give reddit any money. The only argument for their value add is that they're contributing which makes other users likely to join but I suspect reddit has reason to believe they're too adducted to stop even when the app they use is banned,.
Others are saying "power users", but... I agree with you. It is just an assumption that the "power users" make the product better, although a reasonable one. However, Reddit was pretty awesome, arguably much better, before there were semi-professional power users and moderators.
Reddit old is as good as it's always been
Power users who generate the content that makes Reddit valuable to begin with.
This Is the corporate equivalent of "I can't give you money, but I'll pay you with in exposure on my socials". Reddit prefers to be paid in dollars, not with content. They likely have more than enough content from non-Apollo users.
Reddit's free APIs left a lot of uncaptured value on the table. This has become obvious by the sheer number of AI models trained on Reddit data. Free Reddit data goes into the machine, and piles of VC money comes out. Reddit wants in on it, but is unable to stop free API access without the consumer apps being collateral.
That doesn’t make sense. It’s not that Reddit the company wants to be paid in content, obviously. It’s that Reddit needs people to want to visit their website. Reddit gets paid for ads, but people don’t want to see ads, so Reddit needs to deliver content that people want so badly that they’re willing to see ads. Driving away content producers to lower costs just doesn’t make any sense at all, unless they actually have a plan to get cheaper content (GPT ain’t gonna be it, sorry).
> That doesn’t make sense. It’s not that Reddit the company wants to be paid in content, obviously. It’s that Reddit needs people to want to visit their website
We're not disagreeing. The comment I was responding to was saying they are "paying" Reddit with content. As you noted, Reddit doesn't want that, instead, it's asking API users to pay real money so they can see the content without ads. That in itself is pretty reasonable I think - what may not be reasonable is how much Reddit is asking for.
> Driving away content producers to lower costs just doesn’t make any sense at all
What's the breakdown of content producers on 3rd Party apps vs reddit.com and reddit apps? It is reasonable to assume this is a rational decision being made by Reddit after looking at the numbers and doing some projections.
Edit: removed references to ads from parent commenter paraphrasing
> The comment I was responding to was saying they don't want to see ads,
I never said any such thing about ads.
I mean, I'd rather not, but that wasn't even part of the discussion.
I have edited to remove references to ads. However, it's clear to me that you consider content to be the value you're providing to Reddit in exchange for your usage of the API.
The vast majority of an online community's content is produced by a small fraction of users. Most are just reading posts. Without user generated content Reddit has zero value. Reddit fighting its most active, invested users is not a smart move.
YouTube got away with lots of bad changes because many creators are getting paid to produce content and competing with YouTube is near impossible. But Reddit is one of many primarily text-based online communities and they are currently destroying the only things holding people on their platform. Aside from the userbase Reddit has no redeeming qualities that would make anyone hesitate to leave.
Is there a built-in assumption of incompetence at Reddit in your comment?
If you assume they know all what you said, and that they have dashboards showing breakdowns of submitters/commenters/voters by client, can you imagine a charitable explanation of what may motivate their current actions? Even if you do not like the reason, do you think it may be rational?
> can you imagine a charitable explanation of what may motivate their current actions?
IPO value. This entire scheme, is a last ditch attempt to maximise exit value for the founders. The actions all point in that direction, many fo which are borderline illegal.
Let's break it down. Reddit has had a metoric rise in the past 5 years, adding like 200 million mobile users to their official app. This started in 2018 when the first news of the IPO began. Reddit started heavily advertising.
They initially redesigned the web version, started giving a worse mobile experience and had a massive, intrusive banner that said "try the official app" on the mobile client. So we have a "friendlier" web experince and an aggresive app marketing push.
We now have more users than ever. Should we focus on efficiency, tools for mods etc? Nope, the entire product stack of reddit since 2019 has been releasing Monetasation tools. From badly hidden NFTs as profile pictures, to reddit awards paid with money, to ads hidden as actual content on the front page of the new web and mobile app.
So now we have record users, a new set of money making tools what else can we do to maximise exit value? We reduce 3rd party users, this way even if a fraction come to the app we still have new record user numbers. And we generate as much content as possible, preferably in areas that will be considered growth vectors in teh sale.
So reddit made a ridiculous API pricing plan, with 0 time to implement to essentially kill 3rd parties but not having to do it officially. Other less verifiable events that seem to be happening is that bots have increased, and some non english subs like the french and german communities are having new content generated by badly translating popular reddit posts with AI. This would benefit reddit as more content (even if by bots) is a higher exit price and communities that do not speak english using reddit more would also be seen as a positive by whoever would buy reddit. This is not attributable to reddit, bt if it was, it is straight up fraud. However the timing of the bot activity increasing and the non english subs seeing increased activity directly benefits the IPO plan therefore it is worth mentioning.
In other words, the charitable explanation is that this is the last hurrah in a 5 year plan to make the owners of reddit rich before they off load a website full of bots and angry users to whoever is silly enough to think they can fix this mess.
The existence of this HN thread and the situation we are discussing is a very clear sign of Reddit's incompetence. Regardless of what their motivation was they have fucked up the execution in a big way.
Their content is going to be porn bots and astroturfed product accounts. Maybe they want that as part of their enshittification process to extract as much value from the brand as possible during their quick death.
You do know that Reddit doesn’t pay for moderation but uses an army of volunteers?
That's the thing, to use an overused adage: it's a feature not a bug. They want these people gone. They calculated their contributions and decided it won't hurt, or hurt badly enough, for them to care. They'll all make millions on the IPO, step away, and sell. None of this makes a difference to that master plan. The sooner everyone accepts this the less time will get wasted on trying to convince Reddit this is a mistake. It's not a bug.
Reddit is a shell of what it was when I started on the platform 14+ years ago.
Reddit's whole value proposition is user generated content (and moderation).
Labeling that as "only costs" is extremely shortsighted.
I'm sure Digg had the same line of thinking. Worked out great for them.
The opportunity to stand out from other enshittified platforms. But I guess now we need to find a new thing for VCs to fund for us. Maybe an app that pretends to use AI to create memes or something.
Those users generate content. They’re literally the ones creating value, reddit doesn’t have a product without them.
Not being able to understand indirect value as a business is seriously why so many businesses fail.
Mods. People working for free running the site.
Mods and other power users.
Where’s Graham’s take on this?
Reddit 16-year club member here. Reddit has made the the most tone-deaf decision in their entire 17 year history. This will be a future case study on how to self-immolate your entire community.
15-year-club here: This time it feels more being about Reddit itself than about specific persons, like with Ellen Pao. Just the vibe I'm getting.
Anyway, I quit cold turkey end of last year after being a daily user for those 15 years. Definitely right move.
How to Digg your own grave
100% in my experience the people that use Reddit the most (~daily) are the folks that are more likely to be done with Reddit for their stupid decisions.
I’ve only been using Reddit for an about 5.5 years, but when I first signed up I just didn’t use it because I used the website. Then I found Apollo and I became a daily user and it was my main social media.
12-year here, but before that, I was a lurker. I quit using Reddit two years ago. Haven't looked back.
Yeah they should have slow boiled the frog if the goal was to migrate everyone to their own app.
17 ur club here. agree.
Digg: looks confused
> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us."
I can't believe that CEO of Reddit was telling internal people that Apollo tried to blackmail Reddit for a $10 million payout when that didn't happen.
Not only do the receipts contradict the Reddit CEO, but even if they didn't, the Apollo dev is well within his rights to offer an ultimatum that either Reddit acquires his app, or he shuts it down. If he has enough leverage in that situation for Reddit to feel as if that's "blackmail," then it actually means that Reddit is the one blackmailing him with the pricing changes.
On one hand they claim they need to increase pricing to cover their costs, but on the other hand, if he offers (or threatens, according to Reddit) to remove all those costs, they consider it "blackmail" - meaning they're losing something if Apollo shuts down. So why can't they either buy the app or provide discounted API rates or some specialized payment schedule that derisks Apollo's costs instead of forcing a $50,000 bill on them in thirty days?
It was certainly telling when Apollo guy offered what seemed like a pretty lighthearted open in a potential negotiation, and reddit claimed this as "blackmail".
When I negotiate the price on a piece of real estate, I often will include things that I want the owner to fix before closing (this is very common). The implication is "fix this or I won't buy the property".
Is that "blackmail"? Apparently according to Spez it is.
It was the "go quiet" part, as in if they don't just buy him out he'll scream and cry to the public so they get really negative publicity on the API updates. To be clear, I don't think that's what he meant, but I think that's what the Reddit person thought was being said.
It was more about joking. Reddit claimed that Apollo made them lose money 20 million per year, so they had to add API prices.
Joke was to offer the app for half the price if the pricing was legitimate, and keep the users.
Read the disclaimer, the full second sentence of my comment.
DARVO
Isn’t this the same guy who went and edited comments of users who were critical of him on Reddit? If someone shows you who they are believe them…
Its the same guy who has let the entire platform be exploited for years at the expense of the people just wanting to connect about subjects online.
He’s also got a pretty sweet panic bunker, guns, food, and fuel supplies stashed away so when the division and panic he directly benefits from comes to a flash point he can ride it out safely.
Steve Huffman is not a good person.
But hey - he's "a pretty good leader. [Who] will probably be in charge, or at least not a slave, when push comes to shove."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/30/doomsday-prep-...
Amazing the tone and treatment difference because he is very liberal.
They also made the same claim in r/partnercommunities too, not just internally.
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c...
From the linked post:
> We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow
Is that a threat, lol?
Even funnier to me, there's a not even thinly veiled threat right below it.
>Blackout
> We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy.
>This situation is a bit different, with some mods leading the charge, some users pressuring mods. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations.
>Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
>If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone.
AKA: If you protest we will remove you from the mod team for that sub, and force the sub back to public.
Mods quitting en mass can destroy the whole website in days.
Not the first time they are doing it, from what I know. There was some AMA controversy that led to a similar blackout and mod replacements.
Yeah, IIRC r/pics (a "default sub" back when that was still a concept) tried to do a blackout but came back on with similar accusations that the admins intervened.
That’s a private sub, but boy I’d love to see that bloodbath of a comment section after Christian released the call recordings.
It is always remarkable to see what an absolute bankruptcy of ethics some corporate leaders are burdened with, and a relief to see the consequences hit them in the face.
>It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
No spez you utter cunt. The data is not yours. It's my posts on your website. Your own fucking terms say I grant you a right to copy it, not that it's fucking yours.
I rarely appreciate profanity on HN but in this case I appreciate the candid language. The politeness of the corporate speak BS on the other hand is devastating.
> We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change.
What's the definition of a mod tool?
If a mod uses Apollo to keep up with the posts on their subreddit, is Apollo going to be exempt?
Or should Apollo pivot, add more moderation features and rebrand itself as a mod tool?
I wonder how the employees will feel when they realize they were lied to, now that Christian has released an audio recording of the call.
Unless there is another job offering with similar compensation/benefits/etc. I'm not sure most employees will be able to do anything. "Leaders" and bold-faced lies are a duo as old as time. Macroeconomic conditions have many chained to their shitty bosses.
It's less about what they can do, and more about whether they'll trust whatever their CEO says next time.
I don't think that most people trust what the CEO of their company says generally. I know I don't.
Hmm, I think I trust that my CEO isn’t lying to me. It’s just that he isn’t ultimately in control. If he says something and the board changes their minds the day after, he’s stuck.
given Spez has a long history of lying they probably dont care, they're just as complicit as he is.
To be honest it sounded like that to me too. It's very hard to differentiate between some honest clumsy phrasing and fishing for a payout, and the "clarification" doesn't help with that since it could also be an excuse to save face.
Maybe with text snippets, but I don't see how somebody can listen to the conversation and come away with the idea that the dev was blackmailing anyone.
https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...
Having just listened, I can understand that misinterpretation!
I can buy that Selig's words may have been intended, at some level, as a jokey hypothetical to draw a point into contrast. That is, he meant it as (fleshed-out sympathetic rewording): "If this really is just about a $20M drain to you, it'd be a dead-simple & efficient solution to pay $10M to make me go away quietly forever. But of course I wouldn't ask for that & you wouldn't do it, thus this isn't really just about solving your $20M/year cost center, but other mutually-agreeable futures."
But Selig's actual wording in the clip is exactly how people coyly/semi-deniably imply that they be handed various kinds of "go-away" or "hush" money. (That includes arrangements that might not technically be "blackmail" as a legal definition, but feel like vernacular 'blackmail' to laypeople or business-negotiators.)
Selig's opening words, of this audio clip, absolutely sound like an actionable offer "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away." I mean, here's Selig's exact words:
"Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good. That's mostly a joke."
Until "that's mostly a joke", & depending on earlier context/levels-of-mutual-trust, that sounds like a specific offer to do whatever eases things for Reddit in return for $10M cash.
And even after "that's mostly a joke", the 'mostly' leaves open that maybe something of this shape is legitimately in Selig's mind as a resolution.
> Uh, hey, I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20M a year, you cut me a check for $10M, and we can both skip off into the sunset. 6 months of use, we're good.
This is an offer to sell Apollo. The opening stage of a negotiation. There’s nothing wrong with saying this, at all.
That's a possible interpretation. We don't hear the discussion before it. And it's a weird wording to merely offer a sale of assets for Reddit to then manage.
The word choice, to my ears, more implies a "just gimme cash to make me shut up & disappear" attitude, or at least openness to torpedoing every other goal as long as the cash prize is big enough.
I further think Selig's rush to qualify it as "mostly a joke" is evidence that he noticed, in the moment, that what he just said sounded a bit brutally grubby. Maybe by this point he was getting angry his other hints that he mainly wanted an attractive buyout weren't being met by serious offers.
As I mentioned, such a tactic could be far from what the law declares as actionable 'blackmail' but still feel like a tough, "play ball or else" shakedown on the other side of the negotiation – the sort of thing people commonly describe, though somewhat figuratively/hyperbolically, as 'blackmail'.
Is there anything "wrong" with that style of making joking payoff offers to "skip off into the sunset"? Well, in negotiations, as long as you're not breaking the law or sabotaging your longer-run reputation, what's 'right' is largely what gets you what you want, both for now and in enduring relationships.
Did Selig get what he wanted? Does he come off as a desirable & trustworthy counterparty in other future collaborations & negotiations?
I think he's got a legitimate beef with Reddit in many dimensions, but at the same time this audio clip doesn't make him seem super clear & fair in his communications.
The "mostly a joke" bit is him suggesting that while his previous bit was just making a point about the $20m insistence, he'd be open to selling and walking away. He doesn't shut the door on selling it in the linked post either.
> "pay me this specific cash amount & your troubles – both technical/competitive & in terms of any ruckus I can raise in public – go away."
Wait a second, isn't that exactly what Reddit is doing by charging for API access with thirty days notice?
It's still very unclear what exactly right it would be buying with that $10 million. Instead of Apollo shutting itself down right it would pay for the privilege of being the one to shut it down? The payment doesn't make any sense and doesn't help Reddit offset the losses in any way.
The Proposal was to have reddit by Apollo and monetize it, all the talk about going quiet doesn't make sense.
Of course it would be on his mind as a resolution. He makes a living building that app. If his expenses are covered for the forseeable future, that’s a mutually beneficial offer. He says it’s mostly a joke because he knows Reddit won’t go for it, even though it would make a lot of sense.
Or because as long as you say 'just joking' after a threat no one can say you threatened them right?
Really a thinly veiled attempt to ask for a buy out. The guy only needs to charge his users 2.50 more to make up for lost ad revenue, but instead he chose to burn down Reddit.
$2.5/month right? Starting right now because otherwise the bill at the end of the month becomes impossible to pay.
> we can both skip off into the sunset
TBH that doesn't sound menacing to me...however you misinterpret it, it feels more like making a deal than blackmailing. Granted, even taking money to let a publicly discussed issue go away is more akin to a settlement.
Selig's posted audio doesn't vindicate him like he thinks it does. He struggles to speak about what he actually wants and should have hired an attorney (or someone who doesn't clam up and make unfunny "jokes" when nervous) to do the talking for him. I respect what the kid has done, but he's clearly out of his element here and I can totally see how reddit execs took it that way.
I'm shocked that people are interpreting this as not fishing for a payoff, honestly. "We can both skip off into the sunset" does not mean "rewrite the app to do fewer API calls", as he tries to claim later in the call. It means it's done, over, everyone is happy. And why would he say "mostly joking" if he actually meant doing fewer API requests? Nothing about this recording or transcript makes me think Selig is an honest person.
That isn't what he claims later in the call. He claims that he'd shut down the app for $10m. How is that unreasonable?
The app is getting shut down for $0 regardless, why would anyone pay $10m to shut it down?
I'm sure the price is negotiable. Off the top of my head, the reasons you'd pay any nonzero amount of money for it are:
1. You avoid all of this drama. Christian makes a post that says, "Reddit offered me a lot of money and I said yes because I want to have a lot of money. It's been a pleasure working with them and it's been a pleasure developing Apollo for you. Peace out." Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out.
2. Reddit could rather enshittify Apollo gradually, and/or fold Apollo's subscription model into Reddit's own model to maintain a premium power-user experience. It is an absurdly well-polished app, even if you added advertisements to it. It is a better user experience if the app gets worse slowly than if it disappears all at once and forces everyone to migrate to a new app. Reddit ran this playbook with Alien Blue and it worked out.
Enshittify! What a nice verb
Thank Cory Doctorow[1] for that one.
[1]https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
The goal of reddit here is to obviously shut down the app, he was saying "just pay me then" - he's obviously annoyed. Stupid thing for him to say for sure, it shut the "negotiation" down.
I don't really buy the phrase "go quiet" in terms of API usage, it does sound like the developer was backtracking when called out on it
Why misquote? He said "have Apollo quiet down" not "go quiet" he only said "go quiet" after the Reddit rep said that, in response.
At least have your facts straight.
Okay but what does this even mean in terms of API usage? Why would Reddit buying Apollo "quiet down" its API usage? I accept I may just be missing something here but I don't understand this.
Because if reddit owns it, they can shut it down and nag the users to install the official app.
It’s getting shut down even if they don’t buy it.
Definitely.
It just makes no sense otherwise.
I mean, even in the text snippets you can see that they seem to understand after a bit as to what Christian was talking about.
in both the text snippet and the audio it sounds to me like 2 people politely pretending that the offer wasn't made. Notice how the CEO basically immediately cuts off the call after the "clarification"
I don't understand, what is the threat on Christian's part? His project is being killed, that's not a threat but something that is actually happening. He suggests that they pay him a small fraction of what he has cost them to shut down without compromising the reddit API as a whole. What's the threat, that he keeps operating? That's not an option, they are FORCING him to shut down.
Christian was extremely awkward during that call - no way this guy was making some underhanded threat. He spoke in a poor way for sure.
And the Apollo dev would be well within his right to _actually_ threaten them like that, because that's what Reddit is doing to him.
The same CEO that explicitly confessed to editing users' comments? I can totally believe that.
And you know he's reading these.
Steve, come on. Maybe Apollo shuts down, maybe you figure something out, but this whole thing becomes a lot easier to judge as an outsider if one group starts throwing mud like this. You should know better.
I know I'm stretching really far with this, but is it at all possible that the mods made that up, or somehow misheard Steve?
Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding...
Basically, the whole post hinges on the claim that spez was telling internal employees that Christian was making threats. But neither the calls nor the transcript seems to give any details about what exactly spez said. I'm inclined to take Christian's word, but we should all be aware that we are in fact taking him at his word, rather than the claim being proven.
It seems really hard to believe that spez would apologize for misunderstanding him and then immediately tell employees that he was threatening Reddit. This feels like a misunderstanding rather than malicious intent.
> Then yesterday, moderators told me they were on a call with CEO Steve Huffman (spez), and he said the following per their transcript:
> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us."
This doesn't sound like a transcript. I don't know what it is, but that's not how anyone in a work call would behave. Supposing Apollo did threaten Reddit, why would spez even mention that to the mods? Something's weird.
> Maybe I'm missing it, but that claim seems unverified. Did Christian post a transcript somewhere of exactly what Steve said to the mods? It seems like this could all be a big misunderstanding...
He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators. He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place. Both are in the OP reddit thread here. Just search for "transcript" in the page.
It's the sort of thing you'd say to mods if you think it will get them off your back.
> He posted a transcript of what Steve told moderators.
The part I pasted, right?
> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us."
That's not a transcript. That's a sentence devoid of context. We're now two steps removed -- not only do we need to believe Christian, but Christian needs to believe whatever mod sent that to him. Who's the mod? Why is the mod telling Christian anything? Why was Steve talking to mods about Apollo's threat? None of this makes any sense. I don't think anyone has malicious intent here –– bet you $50 that it turns out to be some weird miscommunication. After all, there's zero benefit for Steve to be doing any of those things, and a whole lot of downside. Ins't a miscomm the more plausible theory?
Ironically, if Christian's claims are unsubstantiated, then he's slandering Steve. But Steve slandering Christian to internal employees is precisely what Christian's so angry about. But why would internal employees break ranks and go tell Christian?
There's something more going on here. I'm not sure what.
> He posted a transcript - and recording - of the exact conversation with Steve in which this part of the conversation takes place.
That's the point -- all that he's posted is a transcript where Steve says mea culpa. Then he posted some other person's two-sentence "transcript" of Steve badmouthing him. But it's not a transcript; it's weird.
There's an actual mp4 recording of the conversation on the phone call which lasts about 3 minutes. Maybe "He posted a transcript" should have stated "He posted a call recording" instead, but it's all out there now.
I'm not talking about the call. The call proves nothing. In fact, it proves that Steve is behaving reasonably -- he realized his mistake, then apologized.
I'm talking about after the call, which is what the central claim of the post hinges on. The claim is that Steve went to internal employees and said that Christian was threatening Reddit. Where's that transcript? There's only two sentences, and those two sentences came from some third party moderator that wasn't even introduced in the story.
Everyone is being hypnotized by the audio recording. But the audio recording doesn't say anything about Steve. The only one who said anything about Steve was the unnamed moderator, which we get no info about beyond two very weird sentences.
EDIT: Ah, https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c... gives the rest of the context.
That was posted 20 hours ago. And yeah, if I were Christian and saw that, I'd probably go nuclear too.
I thought Steve was badmouthing Apollo behind closed doors, and then someone behind those doors went to Christian. But that's not what happened. Steve publicly accused Christian of threatening Reddit – a council meeting counts as public.
Thank you to PrimeMcFly for posting that link! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36246777
Well, that's awful. I don't know what Steve was thinking.
Transcript of call: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f9...
> Me: No, no, I'm sorry. Yeah one more time. I was just saying if the opportunity cost of Apollo is currently $20 million a year. And that's a yearly, apparently ongoing cost to you folks. If you want to rip that band-aid off once. And have Apollo quiet down, you know, six months. Beautiful deal. Again this is mostly a joke, I'm just saying if the opportunity cost is that high, and if that is something that could make it easier on you guys, that could happen too. As is, it's quite difficult.
> Reddit: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I think it's… I don't know what you mean by quiet down. I find that to be-
> Me: No, no, sorry. I didn't mean that to-
> Reddit: I'm going to very straightforward to you too, it sounds like a threat. And I'm just like "Oh interesting". Because one of the things we're trying to do is say "You have been using our API free of cost for many, many years and we have absolutely sanctioned - you have not broken any rules." And now we're changing our perspective for what we're telling you - and I know you disagree with it. That hey, we want to operate on a thing that is financially, you know, footing. And so hopefully you mean something completely different from what I said when you say like "go quietly", I just want to make sure.
> Me: How did you take that, sorry? Could you elaborate?
> Reddit: Oh, like, because you were like, "Hey, if you want this to go away".
> Me: I said "If you want Apollo to go quiet". Like in terms of- I would say it's quite loud in terms of its API usage.
> Reddit: Oh, go quiet as in that. Okay, got it. Got it. Sorry.
> Me: Like it's a very-
> Reddit: Yeah, that's a complete misinterpretation on my end.
> Me: Yeah. No, no, it's all good.
> Reddit: I apologize. I apologize immediately.
> Me: No, no, no, it's all good.
> Reddit: Because what we're hearing in some conversations is folks are, you know, like in other- making threats, and we're like "Hey, that's not a conversation that we want to have". So I immediately apologize.
> Me: Oh, no, no, it's all good. I'm sorry if it sounded like that.
Link to audio: http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3...
I am more confused after reading that than I was before. Why is Reddit apologizing? What does “go quiet” mean here and why aren’t they speaking more plainly?
Re-read TFA. He didn't just post a transcript, he posted an actual recording.
If you listen to the audio recording, it does appear the founder of Apollo heavily and directly proposed a buyout of $10M to go quiet.
To be fair, buying 3rd party apps out makes absolutely zero sense when they can just ban them and improve their own client if that aligns with their business priorities.
I stopped reading at that point. I probably would have laughed at the suggestion instead of taking it as blackmail though.
have you tried using reddit's own app? they couldve bought Apollo for $10m and made that the official app. lol
Didn't they do that with AlienBlue? I never used it so I have no idea how much of it is left or what they gimped.
Regardless, if they wanted to create a better app they'd do it. They don't want to.
They probably thought it'll be a "he said/she said" situation and people will err on the side of the big co vs. the little guy. It's extremely funny that the conversation was recorded, so satisfying to catch them in a lie so open-faced...
The author doesn't want to look at it this way, but this is a really weird thing to say. My interpretation was that they'd make an offer to sell the app to reddit, but the specific phrasing there really is not that.
edit: I still think it was the wrong way to approach the situation. Consider this from reddit's perspective, it would only make sense for Reddit to pay for the traffic if they think they would lose it if it Apollo went away, but then it's not opportunity cost.
It doesn't make the change any better of a look for reddit, and you can certainly question whether it's true that Apollo users would just use reddit, but if you accept that then I don't think you can claim the moral high ground if you offer to accept payment to "make it go away". The developer should have approached this from the perspective of the value that Apollo offers users and reddit instead of the cost to make the problem go away. I imagine the dev doesn't accept that Apollo users would just switch over, but they shouldn't have made their statement in those terms then, and I think that was a mistake.
It sounds to me like the conversation went in a way that it could be interpreted as a threat.
This is from the Apollo developer's own telling of the story:
> As said, a common suggestion across the many threads on this topic was "If third-party apps are costing Reddit so much money, why don't they just buy them out like they did Alien Blue?" That was the point I brought up. If running Apollo as it stands now would cost you $20 million yearly as you quote, I suggested you cut a check to me to end Apollo. I said I'd even do it for half that or six months worth: $10 million, what a deal!
If someone said that to me, i.e. "hey, just give me $10 million and I'll stop making things difficult for you," I would interpret that as a threat, even if they denied that it was.
You should listen to the audio transcript that was posted in the original link. I believe it will dispel that notion.
I listened and I'm still confused.
I would love to see someone state clearly:
1. What was Christian actually offering to do in exchange for $10M?
2. What did the Reddit person think that Christian was offering to do in exchange for $10M?
3. How are (1) and (2) different?
I can only surmise from all the posts and interviews that Christian has done post that call but it simply seems like he tried calling their bluff on the $20 million number and/or was fishing for a buyout. He found the number ridiculous, the reddit admin told him that this number wasn't server costs but opportunity costs for lost revenue, Christian decided to poke the bear and ask if instead of him paying them 20 million dollars a year, they could buy him for 6 months of that "lost revenue" and then make that revenue for themselves. He was offering to be acquihired and was simultaneously calling their bluff about the API pricing
The reddit person seems to have thought that Christian was threatening them in some way??? I genuinely don't know what Christian could even have threatened them with. It seems to me they didn't understand the power dynamic at all of a small solo app developer talking to a massive corporation. Maybe they thought he was threatening simply shut his app down for that amount without telling anyone which might have avoided this ruckus? I'm sorry but I genuinely cannot fathom what they thought was going on
1 and 2 are different in that clearly the admin thought Christian was making a threat to their business whereas he was merely calling their bluff and possibly opening himself to business negotiations if reddit actually thought his app was worth that much. Through all this it feels like Christian did not communicate what he wanted effectively (though this seems to have been a throwaway line in a much longer call that got misconstrued gravely) and the admin was simply not equipped at all to handle negotiations
That seems like a fair read. Maybe I would restate as:
Reddit: If we had all Apollo's users, and showed them ads, we could make $20M/year more than we are making now.
What Christian meant to say: Ok, if that's really true, how about you buy my app and all my users for $10M? Then you can show them all the ads you want. If what you say is true, that's quite a deal for you. But my real point is that I don't believe your $20M number.
What Reddit heard: If you pay me $10M, you can have my app and all my users and I will stop making a fuss. Otherwise, I will badmouth you to my users and the press, encourage boycotts, and otherwise try to force your hand.
This read mostly makes sense to me. The only part I don't get is the part of the call where Christian says:
> I said "If you want Apollo to go quiet". Like in terms of- I would say it's quite loud in terms of its API usage.
If Christian's intention was to sell the app and all its users to Reddit, then the load on the API wouldn't change, the only thing that would change is that Reddit would own it and the users would also see ads. So Apollo wouldn't "go quiet" under this scenario, and I don't understand the comment.
For some reason, in all their communication, the reddit admins have been VERY insistent that his app is one of the largest users of the API and that he needs to "optimise". My read is basically that if he sold the app, the external API calls all become internal API calls, they are free to either let the app work but with their own internal APIs or kill the app completely. It would be out of his hands and the issue of the volume of APIs being invoked would quiet down. Not sure if I'm being too charitable but from all the communication from both sides, this is what I'm surmising
It doesn't dispel it
You might be prone to perceiving threats where there aren't any then. The only threat here was reddit's potential loss in revenue - offering to let himself be bought out for half of what they would supposedly "lose" in a year is extremely generous.
Of course, this is all a deliberate reframing by reddit. Reddit wasn't going to "lose" anything so much as "not get".
Right, I think some people are like this.
For example, I had a boss once that would interpret everything I said as a threat (I had a friendship with the owners of the company).
It's just, stupid, and insulting.
Isn't that an offer, not a threat?
Apollo is fully allowed to make things difficult by complaining on social media that he thinks the pricing is unfair. What is illegal or even unethical about that?
Framing it as "give me money and I'll stop making things difficult for you" is disingenuous. The proper framing was "buy the app out and the API usage, and thus the $20mm/year in costs, will stop, or whatever you want to do with the product at that point".
The API usage cost still exists, it doesn't just disappear if it's owned by Reddit instead of the dev
Reddit said the majority of the lost revenue was in opportunity cost (money they could have made from those users if they were using the official app), not the literal cost of maintaining the API. So the idea is that they would buy the app, then could serve ads to those users (or however else they monetize users on the official app) and recoup the opportunity cost.
How is he making things difficult for them?
I've listened to the voice call [1] linked in [2] and I interpret it the same way that Reddit staff apparently did -- as a veiled threat.
Here's why: Christian is saying during the call that if Reddit wants Apollo to "quiet down", then to "make it easier" on everyone, Reddit should pay Christian $10 million dollars.
I agree that there is ambiguity to the conversation, but if you listen to the exchange in context ... it sure sounds like Christian's offer is for Apollo to "go away quietly", as in he personally won't make noise about it. I'm not honestly sure that there's another sound way to interpret this.
Listen to the audio yourselves and consider: what exactly is Christian offering in exchange for $10m? It's not the cessation of API requests, because Reddit already has it own their power to make that happen unilaterally. Therefore it must be something else.
This 'clarification' that Christian provides afterwards, stating that he means API utilization will "go quiet", doesn't make sense, because Reddit doesn't need to pay for that. Again, he must be referring to something else.
What is Reddit buying for $10m? The answer that "Christian will shut down the app and go quietly" is the only answer that makes sense in context.
We should also keep in mind that actual, intended threats aren't necessarily going to be communicated explicitly. If you imagine a lobbyist threatening, say, a congressperson, would they say explicitly: "Vote for our initiative or else we'll stop funding you and fund your opposition"? No, almost certainly not. They'd say something that communicates the threat but requires reading between the lines -- as is the case here.
Even without the need for threats, Christian has a reason to be unhappy with the API change, and voice his criticism of it publicly. It might be what he was planning to do anyway. So perhaps he's offering for Reddit to buy him out in exchange for ceasing his public criticism. It's not precisely a threat because regardless of the offer he might have been planning to criticize Reddit publicly. But it sure would feel like a threat to Reddit. "Buy me out or else I'm going to cause even more public fuss about this". The way that it's communicated, it lands as a threat from my perspective, because the payment will not be for anything besides his silence.
[1] http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3...
[2] https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...
Is it really a threat to offer to sell Apollo rather than face the public backlash that will happen by forcing it to shut down?
> What is Reddit buying for $10m? The answer that "Christian will shut down the app and go quietly" is the only answer that makes sense in context.
They're buying Apollo. Then they can shut it down and make the app stop making API requests.
They don't need to buy Apollo for it to shut down, that's the point. Apollo gets shut down with or without the buyout, so what exactly is the $10 million payment securing
So the whole raise-api-cost was in fact intended to just shut these apps down, and isn't to recoup costs, like Reddit is saying?
That means Reddit entered in bad faith - at that point you can't fault Apollo for reacting to that bad faith in any way really, as long as it was legal. You can't be expected to act in good faith if the other party isn't.
So, I still see no blame for Apollo folk (I don't use the app or know who they are before today)
It's bad all around, my friend.
I dont think there is really anyone to blame.
Apps cost them money they could be making in advertising, So they want big money or will cut the apps off. If apps could offer more money than reddit thinks they could make without them, then everyone would be happy, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Reddit very obviously wants a LOT more money than is "fair" here - let's be real.
What do you think is fair? They dont owe Apollo anything and they dont want anything Apollo has to offer.
If we are being real, Reddit wants Apollo gone. The only definition of fair would be terms both reddit and Apollo mutually agree to, but that isnt going to happen.
Apollo had a good run while it lasted, and I hope the devs walk away with some money to show for it.
Honestly, reddit shouldn't want Apollo gone. They should want Apollo. If a large number of your potential users are going to a different platform it's because yours lacks something. Shutting down some of your competition doesn't change that fact, and those users are still going to be open to bailing for better options.
Why piss off your userbase by trying to force them back to your inferior option when you could just buy the thing they've clearly shown they prefer and give it to them yourself?
>Why piss off your userbase by trying to force them back to your inferior option when you could just buy the thing they've clearly shown they prefer and give it to them yourself?
Because Apollow doesnt bring in the revenue but Reddit's user hostile platform does.
The goal isnt to make the users happy or their preference, it is to make money.
If you run a restruant, and the restruant next door gives food away for free, of course diners will prefer it. The problem comes if the place next door is using your kitchen and supplies. Buying the restruant next door doesn't help your problem.
Fair is something that works for both parties - maybe it doesn't exist in this case.
Are you deliberately ignoring the next few lines of the conversation, then?
I don't see it that way. That was just a proposed business transaction: reddit pays a fee, and in exchange, the Apollo dev doesn't comment publicly on the API changes. What's the threat, real or implied? The alternative is he goes public, which is only a problem for reddit if they know what they're doing is wrong.
>The alternative is he goes public
yes, that is the threat. Yes, it is also a business transaction. The two are not mutually exclusive.
black·mail:
demand money or another benefit from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them.
Him going public with... what? The API pricing? This was discussed in similar calls with all third party app devs. The pricing was going to be public anyways
I just don’t see Reddit’s response here other than “yes, turns out we are the bad guys who have been continually lying and manipulating the situation for our benefit”. I wonder if they’ll see employees quit over this. How do you trust your employer after this? I bet some subreddits will go permanently private or delete themselves over this.
Just absolutely stunning turn of events, massive kudos to Christian for recording his calls with them for over a year (legally I might add). Reddit has 0 wiggle room here.
EDIT: Just spitballing here but could an employee bring a shareholder lawsuit for negatively impacting financial outlook or destroying brand value? I feel like this is going to significantly reshape Reddit as moderators of large subreddits will be furious and quit if not destroy entire subreddits. Just look at how many big (millions and tens of millions of subscribers) subreddits are signed onto the blackout letter https://www.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/1401qw5/incomplet...
EDIT 2: Is spez (Steve Huffman, CEO and cofounder) going to lose his job over this?
EDIT 3: Christian says in the post the refunds will cost him personally about $250,000. Does he have a claim against Reddit for that money I wonder? I'm sure lawyers are looking closely at the agreements right now.
EDIT 4: #1 Reddit Android app "Reddit is Fun" is shutting down too https://www.reddit.com/r/redditisfun/comments/144gmfq/rif_wi...
It is really astounding to see the CEO of Reddit being caught in a blatant lie denigrating a third party developer whose work has done a lot for the platform and who has the ear of a reasonably sized and loud portion of the community.
I really hadn’t expected that. Corporate doublespeak is one thing, and management decisions aren’t necessarily always in the interest of their users - but such an egregious act is really beyond the pale.
From the IPO mindset, what questions does this raise about the risk to the business from the leadership’s lack of integrity? And not just the propensity to lie, but to get caught so blatantly. Why would even a ruthless money-over-everything Wall Street investor want to gamble on that?
And kudos to Christian for doing what he did. Bullies need to learn that the truth will come out eventually, and if the revelation they can’t gaslight with impunity is a shock to them - good.
Edit: not to mention Christian's full-time job has just been ended by this policy change. How especially and thoughtlessly cruel to now also make him out to be an extortionist liar, and for nothing really.
>It is really astounding to see the CEO of Reddit being caught in a blatant lie
Spez was the person who got caught editing a users comment in the backend to make them seem like an asshole or otherwise change the public perception of a question and response
This is 100% in line with something I would expect from Spez (the CEO)
Whats really telling, though, is that he's managed to hold on to his position despite everything.
Because people, in general, don't give a shit. About anything really. Unless you directly inconvenience them in some way.
And Reddit has been online the whole time. People love boycotting within Reddit, but they’re still using Reddit to do that.
This is where Reddit users get to prove if they have what it takes to boycott for what they believe in.
Except now Reddit is taking away the primary method of using Reddit for many users
Birds of a feather. Presumably the board and major investors have similar ethical standards.
It's too bad Alexis Ohanian or Swartz (RIP) isn't the cofounder that's running Reddit and Spez is.
> reasonably sized and loud portion of the community
He also spearheaded entirely killing off reasonably sized and loud portions of the community - love them or hate them, r/The_Donald was a massive, advertisable bloc of users.
>r/The_Donald was a massive, advertisable bloc of users.
Bit soon to whitewash history.
What are you talking about? It was a large, vibrant, and rapidly growing community of Trump supporters. Funnest subreddit around before it was banned on completely laughable charge of targeting police. Spez did that.
>r/The_Donald was a massive, advertisable bloc of users
What are they buying? What would be advertised to them, and by whom?
Hard to convince advertisers to cough up real money for an audience of Russians and impoverished rednecks.
Surely Mike Lindell would have purchased millions worth of advertisements!
Turns out a large majority of Americans are uneducated white men that tend to right side political ideals.... and for good or bad Reddit decided not to deal with them.
> Turns out a large majority of Americans are uneducated white men
In the US, the male to female ratio is roughly 97 to 100. This means that in most areas of the country, there are slightly more females than males.
White men make up 31% of the US population.
Just under 90% of Americans have a high school diploma or GED: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...
Hot take: A high school diploma is no longer enough to be considered "Educated" and should rather be considered a bare minimum to do the most basic things in life.
A year of high school history about how the south actually were totally the good guys with slavery and it wasn't that bad has turned out to not be the wonderful enlightenment we should strive for.
Turns out a large majority of Americans are uneducated white men that tend to right side political ideals
Uh, no. Turns out that there's a noticeable percentage of Americans who are white men for whom education is apparently not relevant, but they're far from a majority - they're just obnoxiously loud and in your face.
And I'm not going to say that they're dumb, but it's undeniable that approximately half of people in the USA are of below-average intelligence.
Reminds me of a scary quote I read somewhere (I'll put it in terms of my country):
Think of the average Mexican, the most average you can picture. Now think that half of the population is WORSE than that (in terms of education, culture and "dont give a shit about you")
Its frankly scary to realize the situation of at least half of the world.
> It is really astounding to see the CEO of Reddit being caught in a blatant lie denigrating a third party developer whose work has done a lot for the platform and who has the ear of a reasonably sized and loud portion of the community.
I would like to be astounded. But Reddit has taken $1.4 billion in venture capital, meaning they are expected to make VCs well more than that. And one way that can happen is aggressively juicing the short-term numbers and IPOing, so that VCs can dump their holdings before everybody realizes that they were sold a bill of goods. I suspect that they were thinking nobody would catch them like this. Or that even if they did, people would have forgotten by the IPO pop.
I think there's a fundamental conflict of interest in the business models of web communities. I saw somebody sum up Web 2.0 as "you do all the work, we make all the money", which totally applies to Reddit. Those communities can work well on a pay-the-bills basis. But investors generally don't give a shit about communities; they just want money. So from the perspective of the economic rational actor, the right thing to do is to strip-mine the years of goodwill built up, maximizing short-term revenue. That will set the business up for long-term failure, but by that point it will have been sold off.
That's an important part of the private equity playbook and has been for a while. A good example is Simmons Mattress: https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/...
And Cory Doctorow has been talking about this as enshittification: https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
>I suspect that they were thinking nobody would catch them like this. Or that even if they did, people would have forgotten by the IPO pop.
Yeah true. Still seems like a legally asinine thing to do. It was really as simple as "I did not see eye to eye with Apollo" and you can power trip all you want after that.
I don't know if there is a slander case here, but a C level executive shouldn't even risk it to begin with.
likely not, given how strong libel/slander laws in the U.S. are. Funnily enough, correcting the story so quickly before damages were done may have weakened a case.
Thanks for sharing these goldmines
I actually believe reddit when they say the impact is small
I'm using reddit for ages and never even considered anything besides their website.
If the traffic to their site is primarily from the web (or web mobile or the official Reddit app), the client (3th party) users are only a loud minority.
Of course I think the behavior is shitty but I don't think most people really care and reddit will not see any real impact of it either.
So if the impact of the change is so small, why does the CEO of this company with thousands of employees feel remotely compelled to concoct a fantasy story where the Apollo developer is an evil villain that is so unbelievable and verifiably unbelievable it doesn't last six hours before blowing up in his face?
Even if you completely accept these policy changes as a long-term positive for reddit's growth, how can you have confidence in that leadership? How can you trust anything they tell you as an investor?
Steve has some kind of problem. It's been apparent before with editing comments in the live db, and it's apparent now. This problem is a risk for reddit. "Don't lie on or about phone calls" is pretty basic risk management and he can't handle it.
That's the thing, because of Huffman's instability and childish behavior in previous years, his words have no meaning here.
Reddit is still a decent-sized company with a whole team of people who've likely been running the numbers. Third party apps like Apollo are a nerd concern anyway, and nerds are outnumbered on Reddit these days; I'm sure most users are happily poking away at the first party apps.
It doesn’t matter if the “nerds” are outnumbered. Lurkers outnumber actual content creators by insane multiples, yet everyone knows that the content creators are the ones that keep people coming back.
What about mods? Looks like many of them use 3rd party apps to help moderate their subs. They are outnumbered too, but are they worth less than millions of lurkers? I think not.
Reddit is betting that the loud minority are not the ones bringing value to their site. If they are wrong, it may be too late.
Content creators want their content to be viewed. They're not going to just go away, they want the internet points.
Content creators on digg wanted their content to be viewed too. Every social media org should have a framed copy of ozymandius on the wall.
Comments are content too and often more insightful. Moderators for all the bashing some deservedly get are key to keep content creators happy. Each forum is a small organization. The sum of the heads of these orgs. and the identities of users is what makes Reddit valuable. We are however entering an age where identity becomes more portable so mess with all the leads of your teams at your own peril.
The problem is, a very very very large portion of the mods are using third party apps. If the mods go away (because their tools don't work anymore), reddit will have a very big problem on their hands.
Yes people are missing the point here. I'm in Australia and I know when I check reddit groups moderated in other countries they are full of hate - like 4chan when the mods are asleep. I've seen an unmoderated reddit even just for a few hours, the site will be destroyed if people give up their unpaid voluntary work. They need the tools because it's not their fulltime job.
Exactly. Reddit without auto mod tools (that require API access) gets over run with hate speech and incels.
Reddit won’t work without API access… it just turns into a 4Chan-like cesspool over night without auto moderation.
I honestly hope so. A 4chan-tier cesspool would completely ruin their IPO.
Based on many of the mods' behavior, that might actually be a big win for users. Their persecution and abuse of users makes Reddit the cesspool that it is.
After all, Reddit is so shitty that HN will ban you for pointing out behavior here as "Reddit-like."
We don't ban accounts for that sort of reason, so I'd like to know which account(s) you're talking about.
I read it as a hyperbolic restatement of the Semi Noob Illusion Clause.
Oh --- wow --- another SNI clause!
I don't remember now, but thanks for asking.
You're welcome, and it's ok - I get how hard it is to remember these things and also how easily it can seem like we've banned an account for a bad or unfair reason. If you (or anyone) have that impression again in the future, you're welcome to ask. In a few cases there are details we can't disclose, but in most cases we're working with information that's public (like comment histories) and can tell you why we banned an account. You might not disagree with the reason and that's fine, but I'd rather that people disagree with the actual reason and not an incorrect one.
> Their persecution and abuse of users makes Reddit the cesspool that it is.
That's not what made Reddit seem like a cesspool to me. It was the commenters.
I'm sure there are plenty of bad ones. But I haven't participated in groups where those have been a problem.
I was banned from all field-recording-related subs because I asked a question about microphones, and the lack of a particular kind in the market. More people piled in, and eventually we contacted the CEO of a mic company who engaged with us and said he'd make a modified version of a product if enough people expressed interest.
Everyone involved with the thread was banned and it was deleted, with no excuse. I never raised the topic again, but was immediately banned from another recording-related sub when I answered a question about a recorder... as if my account had been flagged by some inbred cabal to auto-ban if I ever showed up.
This behavior utterly defeated the purpose of the forums and stole from users. Yes, stole. It's time that people took stock of the fact that the time we spend to compose questions and answers on forums is not free, and those who deliberately steal it should be called out every time.
Just wait until you've been banned on sub's you've never visited before - because you made a comment somewhere else on reddit.
Mods can be great, and many of them are. But... there's plenty of bad ones out there that make participating in some communities stifling at best.
That is one of the exact things I'm talking about. Mass banning from subs you don't even participate in, or that could not have been related to whatever you're being persecuted for.
Is your comment here more Reddit-like, or more HN-like?
> if the impact of the change is so small, why does the CEO of this company with thousands of employees feel remotely compelled to...
We see this all the time on social media, where companies respond to the very vocal minority, because even though they may be a minority, their voice is amplified by social media. Not saying this is the case here, but it's why companies often respond even when the real impact may be small.
> may be a minority, their voice is amplified by social media.
The same organization that is dealing with that, also accepted that when they entered a market to where their potential profibility reaches a vast higher amount of people.
The companies asked for that level of audience. They got it, they're operating on a smaller staff than traditionally you would need for that level. Now they're upset they're paying the pipper.
> So if the impact of the change is so small, why does the CEO of this company [...]
A thousand times this. Plus their repeated insistence that they "aren't like Twitter" (which is true, I think. They're worse.) They are obviously running scared of something, and that something can really only be that the impact of this is potentially enormous.
This breathless take that capitalists aren’t propagandists taking advantage of every step and spreading FUD at every other is shockingly naive. The CEO of Reddit is trying to punish this guy for overstepping because capital naturally positions itself at the top and bullies all threats it perceives
It also makes no sense you’re implying this is hurting Reddit. They just shut down a huge ecosystem of free loaders and will be able to show more first party usage and therefore ad views and DAU and so on, which aligns so obviously with their goal of having a huge IPO I don’t even know how you think people will “lose trust in leadership”. They are stoked they’re about to make ridiculous stacks of cash, and the few that aren’t don’t matter.
> It also makes no sense you’re implying this is hurting Reddit. They just shut down a huge ecosystem of free loaders
It’s absolutely insane to call them freeloaders. Reddit’s business model is not “we serve pages with ads and advertisers pay us”, it is “those ‘freeloaders’ create content that is the whole value of the company, it is nothing without that — and this results in every traffic that hits the site”
> They just shut down a huge ecosystem of free loaders and will be able to show more first party usage and therefore ad views and DAU and so on, which aligns so obviously with their goal of having a huge IPO
My take on this comment is that these people are considered freeloaders by Reddit. It’s not necessarily rational from an outsiders perspective, but that’s not the point.
I don’t know much about reddit, but if they sell advertising, then advertisers are the customers, users are the product, and anyone else who extracts value from the ecosystem are parasites.
It doesn’t matter if the parasites are an important part of the ecosystem. There is a remarkably deep bench of people willing to replace an any “parasites” that are removed, and if exfoliating the current layer will improve DAU and therefore IPO value then it will be done.
In this context, “freeloader” is a nice way of putting it.
To be clear - I don’t agree that any of this is OK, and I certainly don’t agree that moderators or third party apps are actually parasites - but that’s also the point I think the GP is making.
If the only measure of success is money, that’s what they will optimise for. And an IPO is the shortest of short term goals - a single event which must be optimised at all costs.
All of these 3rd social media clients really are “freeloaders” though, I don’t get what’s so controversial about shutting them down. If I made my own Netflix client that bypasses their revenue stream, and implemented my own revenue stream on top of it, would anybody be upset or surprised if it was shut down?
Shitty analogy — does your users produce the movies as well?
The users don’t belong to Apollo. Reddit provides a service to Reddit users, Apollo freeloads on that service, cuts off Reddit’s revenue stream, and replaces it with its own. Why would anybody think that Reddit has some obligation to allow this, or that Apollo has some right to do it?
Nobody thinks that, not even the Apollo author, which is why the problem is not that Reddit is charging for access to the APIs, but that they are charging far more than the amount they’re losing.
What is the profit margin on Reddit API calls, and what industry benchmark do you think it’s exceeding?
I think reading the article will answer all your questions.
From what I have read, a lot of moderators also use third party apps as moderation tools. They are not paid to do this job.
Heck, most of the video content on Reddit is reposted from other sources.
The moderation tools offered by Reddit don’t have support for accessibility. If you are in r/blind for example… How are you gonna moderate that? And for those who don’t need those tools, third party apps save them a lot of time since the official app is so bad for such things.
> They are not paid to do this job.
plenty more people want to moderate, seriously, why should they pay them? hear me out:
If you pay them "a livable wage" you'll get people in the chair who don't want the job, just the pay. If you pay them less, suddenly you'll run afoul of minimum wage laws, overhead of having employees, etc.
you could auction off the job (mods pay reddit for the privilege, given that more people want to moderate than currently can) but that would encourage the mods to monetize their sub (the more successfully, the more subs would become part of ebaum's world)
voluntary moderation actually is the happy medium, people who love the job and the sub are willing/want to do it.
Like they say "everything can't be measured in money" (ok, I never say that, but there it is)
I never asked for them to be paid. I'm saying that reddit can exist due to their generosity, and that these people use third party tools and the API to do this. That's being taken away.
I obviously don’t believe in capitalist philosophy but you’re joking if you think the market doesn’t consider ad-free users as a drain regardless of reality.
Which is what I’m trying to say: you’re framing the actions of Reddit’s CSuite in terms or morals and long term outlooks, which is not how the market will look at their ipo. At all.
Sorry, but "the market" doesn't think anything. That's a category error.
If by that you mean something like "VC investors", sure. They are people whose job is trying to turn money into more money while filling their own pockets to bursting. They are zero-sum people by nature and practice. If they really understood and cared about communities, they'd mostly have different jobs.
But that doesn't make it true. And there's nothing wrong with framing Reddit's execs actions in terms of morals and long-term outlooks. We should generally not concede anything to the world-view of the greedy. Whether or not this will hurt Reddit's IPO is worth discussing, but we shouldn't confuse that with hurting Reddit the community, which it certainly will.
> “the market” doesn’t think anything
Wow, you’re really going to argue pedantically here?
Let me be clear for the fools in the room then. The behavior exhibited here is perfectly rational and likely to be rewarded from the perspective of a pre IPO company looking to pump its financials wrt user count, engagement, and ad views, and therefore any objections about moral or long term behavior ignore the fact that this playbook has been wildly profitable for many people many times, and thusly explains what the Reddit CEO is doing
Looking forward to when people start panning this system / status quo instead of acting like following the incentives is confusing
Asking you to be more precise where it matters isn't pedantry.
The behavior is "perfectly rational" only in the economics sense of that term. On a human scale, we often call it things like "sociopathic".
I will also note that companies don't have perspectives either. Which also isn't pedantry, because in analyses where we seek change to a system, we have to understand exactly who is involved and what their motivations are. So in this case it's worth being very specific that the people involved who think this is "rational" are very modest in number. The VCs, probably the rest of the board. To some extent the CEO, but as a founder it's possible he's conflicted enough that he might depart from his short-term economic incentives to protect the think he's spent a major part of his life working on. Maybe some of the execs if they came in to prep in for an IPO.
So now we're not talking about the whole company, which is 2,000 employees, thousands of volunteers, and millions of content creators. We're talking about maybe a dozen greedy people. That's a much more tractable number.
> Asking you to be more precise where it matters isn't pedantry.
It is when you're about to restate what I've said...
> The behavior is "perfectly rational" only in the economics sense of that term
Do you think a company has non-economic incentives?
> On a human scale, we often call it things like "sociopathic".
Right, and I call these people capitalists. Did you genuinely not glean that?
> I will also note that companies don't have perspectives either
> it's worth being very specific that the people involved who think this is "rational" are very modest in number. The VCs, probably the rest of the board. To some extent the CEO
> We're talking about maybe a dozen greedy people
Right. Thus why I said: "capitalists are propagandists who will position themselves at the top and bully all threats they perceive to their system"
It really reads to me like you took bad-faith readings of all my comments, and then restated them differently, while stating it isn't pedantry. You've delivered exactly 0 insights to me. Maybe you were trying to elucidate others, but I don't really see that.
If those ad-free users are over represented in content creatin then surely they are no drain. No one comes to reddit so they can browse ads.
Seems like two big ifs - that they’re over represented, and that they wouldn’t switch to Reddit apps or web
I non-obviously do believe in the capitalist reality underpinning the universe (it's value-add all the way down) but you’re smoking if you think the market doesn't recognize ad-free users are relatively cost-less compared to their positive network externalities.
that doesn't mean that some free-to-choose sites won't experiment with paywalls, etc. in an attempt to enhance cost-covering revenue.
Exactly. I'd argue the true freeloaders at Reddit are the Reddit execs and the venture capitalists squeezing for profits. Everybody here developer here knows they could rebuild Reddit in short order; there's no technology moat. The valuable asset is the community. Beyond recovering enough money to pay for servers and some core staff, everything else is parasitic.
Don't get me wrong I'm not here to defend any actions of reddit especially not their CEO.
But if they have stats saying 1% and less is 3th party App Traffic it's probably more that people in reddit care just not their ceo
So
1. I feel like you didn't read the comment you replied to. It says in a compelling way that reddit wouldn't do this if they didn't feel a threat
2. > But if they have stats saying 1% and less is 3th party App
A solid takeaway from the original post is that you can't trust Reddit
3. All the bad press surrounding this is infinitely worse for their brand. The subreddit strike, for instance, could force their hand into taking authoritarian control over the platform, as they've hinted at. "Reddit abandons democracy" is a pretty damming headline, and they just can't seem to stop digging their hole deeper
> you can't trust Reddit
Sure, but what does that even mean? I cannot trust them to load the topics from /r/ruby or /r/haskell correctly because of nefarious purposes? Perhaps they have replaced all the posts with Python propaganda in the hope I wouldn't notice?
I don't 'trust' reddit, I surf reddit and it's communities.
Reddit is not a bank account
Aren't you trusting their published stats?
Nope.
I argue bases on them but they do not matter to me.
I do not use a 3th party App. For me it makes sense. But if they lied they will hurt themselves anyway
>All the bad press
You're forgetting the adage, "there is no such thing as bad press". If you're not a user of the 3rd party apps, then none of these decisions affect you, and most people are just not going to get upset about things that don't affect them directly.
> If you're not a user of the 3rd party apps, then none of these decisions affect you
likely untrue. its not just 3rd party apps it affects. it changes api access for anything using the API
for instance modtools will be affected which means literally everyone can be affected desktop or not https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/12rt5f8/how_wil...
some subreddits make heavy use of bots
these are all going to be hugely affected
Of course there is such thing as bad press.
Look at companies like Theranos where it was the investigative reporting that ultimately led to their downfall.
And as someone who has been on Reddit for 16 years and has never used a 3rd party app this decision does affect me. a) I think less of the company and the site which will affect my engagement and b) It affects everyone else on the site which in turns affects their engagement and the quality of their posts.
Theranos was doing shady shit and ripping off investors. That's illegal. Bad press didn't shut them down. Criminal investigations shut them down and the CEO is now actually in jail.
Confusing illegal activity with activity you disagree with is not doing the conversation (or society in general) a bit of good
> You're forgetting the adage, "there is no such thing as bad press"
Yeah, but that adage has never been true. It's just something said by people who get bad press to make themselves feel better.
I feel like in the age of cancel culture, this adage isn't really a thing anymore. News travels too far and too fast.
I agree but I think the more damning thing about this update is the slander. Maybe it still doesn't come down to a case, but letting it get this close to begin with is absurd, even for a CEO that got into a piss fight with his users.
>If the traffic to their site is primarily from the web
Of course it's not. According to this site, around 3/4 of their traffic is from mobile.
https://www.semrush.com/website/reddit.com/overview/
HackerNews, I love you, but some of the comments in here are detached from reality. You'd be hard pressed to find any social media company that gets more traffic from desktop than mobile in the year 2023. This site is the exception, not the rule.
Mobile includes mobile web browsers.
You cant use reddit website on mobile. It will force you to install the app to view most subreddits
This is false. I only browse reddit in the browser version on my phone. It annoys you all the time to install their app, but you can read and post perfectly fine.
Your rebuttal is false and the parent is accurate. Reddit will throw up a full screen interstitial on most popular subreddits preventing even viewing and redirect you to download the app. This is on the mobile (not old.reddit desktop-only) site. Their UX is shite and full of dark patterns.
If you log in, the mobile site is perfectly usable. You might also have to set a preference as well (like the old.reddit preference). It has been so many years of using it this way I don't remember.
If you use a browser that supports uBlock (e.g. Firefox or Kiwi) you can easily block the app advertisement as well.
I use it all the time on my phone old.reddit.com
The only way I use is through old.reddit.com. I won’t be going there if that is shutdown.
Not forced, if you are logged in. You'll get notified to install it but you can click it away.
It's possible, they just make it as annoying and difficult as possible.
Works in Firefox on Android without logging in or using old. for me.
You can on old.reddit.com. Their redesign was so unpopular with users they agreed to keep supporting the old design which doesn't nag you into downloading the app.
old.reddit.com is primarily kept around because the majority of moderators use it.
You absolutely can. Old reddit still works.
And .compact is gone
And I can guarantee that there are approximately five people using Reddit via a browser on mobile. Mobile means the app, to a precision of two or three significant digits.
As one of the five, I didn't believe this so went trying to determine more realistic numbers.
Per the link below, mobile web is anywhere from 15 to 60% of mobile traffic. Reddit isn't listed, and it's 4 years old, so who knows, but I'd imagine it falls somewhere in the same range, probably closer to the lower end?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1019768/us-retailers-app...
I'd wager you're completely wrong. Reddit at this point gets a ton of traffic from search. Remember the old 90/9/1 rule. 90% of users are just browsing cat pictures and are eyeball fodder for ads.
I use old.reddit on my mobile browser.
The app sucks.
old.reddit is starting to come apart at the seams, tho. (maybe it's because r/subs don't keep the style sheets up to date or something? i dunno) in many cases you can't up or downvote, there's no search button, there's no sidebar with the flair and the rules/mods, etc.
You might be the only person that browses old.reddit with subreddit CSS turned on
I used "style sheet" in a generic sense, rather than to mean CSS (I remember Microsoft (Multitool) Word v1.0) and I was referring to the layout of a subreddit home page which I've never played with but I'm aware the moderators have some control over.
I know how to turn off Page Style in Firefox (manually for every page) which is CSS related, but otherwise have no idea what you are referring to
Err why? The css adds a lot of flavor, generally doesn’t get in the way of functionality.
I don't want any flavor, that's the entire point of old.reddit. I use it to consume information, not for eye candy.
I am one of the five. I use the Reddit website on iOS Safari and have for years. I only read one subreddit, so my usage pattern may be different than a normal reddit user. The only thing that annoys me is the ever persistent ‘website or app’ modal dialogue but I’m used to it now.
I try to use mobile websites instead of apps because I feel like the tracking data a company can get from a web browser is less granular than app tracking data.
> And I can guarantee that there are approximately five people using Reddit via a browser on mobile.
Apparently all five of them use my little web browser extension with Reddit-specific features, requested by users.
But I can guarantee that your estimate is totally wrong.
Wrong. Their mobile crapp is well, crap. That's why they try to shove it up everybody's arse with the "Open this page in our app" blurbs.
I’m one of those five people then. Very casual use, but that’s probably the large majority of Reddit users.
I'd wager that most Reddit users these days, casual or not, are only dimly aware that the platform even exists as a website. Or at least a large plurality.
According to [1], Reddit has 52 million daily active users (and 430 monthly users), while according to [2] the Reddit app has 17 million daily active users. Both numbers are from 2021. So only about a third of DAUs would be using the Reddit app. Apollo has 50,000 yearly subscribers, so is probably more on the negligible side.
[1] https://www.businessofapps.com/data/reddit-statistics/
[2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1255714/reddit-app-dau-w...
> Apollo has 50,000 yearly subscribers, so is probably more on the negligible side overall.
Note this figure does not include free users, nor the users of the plethora of other clients... But regardless
Clearly, Reddit has deemed 3rd party clients pose a huge cost to their platform, otherwise they wouldn't charge through the roof. IMO, all these numbers are meaningless given this fact.
I’m not sure what Reddit’s rationale is here. Third-party app users are less than 1% (can’t find the link where I read this). The most plausible explanation is that they want to get rid of a potential future threat, because I don’t believe that current third-party usage constitutes any substantial loss. Otherwise buying out Apollo as mentioned in TFA should have been an easy decision.
Maybe I am a little naive here but…
Wouldn’t an ad support guideline be enough for third party apps to continue coexisting with the official Reddit app?
Call it that, or sdk. But if ad based revenue is so important for Reddit, getting Apollo and the rest to properly display and track ads is imho a no brainer and would totally solve the issue at hand.
As I said maybe I am too naive, and I only see part of the picture.
You assume they act rationally. As mentioned in the post, the API costs are orders of magnitude more than the expected value from an average user.
In the post further down they discuss that. Reddit’s rationale is opportunity cost per user, not the price of serving the api.
We’ve got lots of web devs and startup space folks on this site, I guess somebody must know how to look this sort of thing up?
I googled “percentage of reddit mobile traffic in app” but got a bunch of marketing sites, and wasn’t able to sort out which ones were bullshit. I bet there’s a good source for this sort of thing though.
In any case, we don’t need to wager right? It seems like this ought to be measurable.
I’m one of those five as well. I have the Reddit app but still use mobile web.
Using Reddit via browser here, never used an app for it yet as I like tabs.
Another web browser mobile here.
I use reddit, as I do most of my surfing, very successful with my smartphone browser.
I know reddit is pushing it's all but even that is not 3th party apps.
Yeah I've used reddit daily for over a decade. I just use a mobile browser. I tried a couple apps a few years back, but just when back to mobile browser after a few weeks.
I just hope they don't get rid of old.reddit.com
> the client (3th party) users are only a loud minority
The loud minority argument assumes homogenous cohorts, and that the loudness happens to cluster around inconsequential things. These criteria are almost never satisfied in practice.
Any online community today has extreme differences: usually a tiny minority contribute almost all content to the site (posts, comments). In Reddit’s case, moderation is also done by human volunteers assured by 3p bots (as opposed to automated ML policing + human intervention when someone famous gets sour). The vast majority of users are passively consuming, occasionally upvoting/downvoting.
Now, Reddit gained a massive amount of users in the last few years (something like 2x-4x) so bean counters start drooling over ad revenue from them. They may think that the old timers, power users and mods are a minority that can be gradually replaced by the new user pool without major incident. I don’t know if that’s true, but I’m pretty sure that the bean counters don’t know either, simply because the graphs they’re looking at don’t have the predictive power they think. They’re risking the company’s main asset to find out.
You're neglecting the tools and bots that use the API, which are heavily utilized by most mod teams. One of the pillars of reddit is unpaid moderators, and if the tools that make that job doable on the scale of reddit stop working, then you will see a mass exodus of those unpaid moderators. That means the death of most of the big, well moderated communities like AskHistorians, AskScience, AITA, etc.
I've already seen many of these subs having moderator led discussions about relocation options for the communities.
Reddit has expectations of what moderators are to do, and has expectations of what they are not to do, and will remove them from roles if they fail to meet those expectations. That set of expectations would make them employees if compensated.
As for liability, the Ninth Circuit in Mavrix v LiveJournal held that if an agent of a user-content-hosting ISP (social media) has the means and opportunity to moderate, they also have the means and opportunity to interdict reasonably known copyright violations, and failure to act on those would jeopardise their DMCA Safe Harbour.
And there’s a lot of registered copyright holders that will 100% line up to be a creditor on statutory damages.
Reddit moderators do not directly deal with DMCA takedown requests. If Reddit is presented with one, they will take the offending post down directly. Moderators can be suspended or removed, however, if they encourage rule-breaking behaviour in a subreddit (such as by soliciting content that results in DMCA takedowns).
The primary social role of moderators is to curate the community. That involves enforcing some site-wide rules, but it also involves more local rules like "stay on-topic." It wouldn't do for a forum about NFL football to be taken over by discussion for The Bachelor, even though that's not actionable at a site-wide level.
Traffic is really a bad way to look at it, Traffic exisits because there is content to view
If the majority of people posting, commenting, etc are coming from the other interface it does not matter if the bulk of the "traffic" which is largely going to be non-power users that just read reddit comes from the web and the new interface.
There seems to be this idea that reddit will need to see massive traffic loss to die, no they need to see massive loss of quality link submissions and comments to die, that is a very different metric
So have I only used the official apps, and I believe most users are in the same bucket.
But. I'm not a mod. I don't know what mods use. And the only reason reddit is good is because communities have tools to moderate themselves.
What I use is kind of irrelevant if the people who keep the communities I visit consistent and relatively clean are pissed and walk out. A casual user won't drop the site when Apolo closes, it would be slightly later when reddit becomes 4chan in absence of moderation.
There are some amazingly good alternatives. I personally use Boost which presents threads in a much more readable manner and allows you to easily swap between different contexts. Before they disappear it might be good to give some alternatives a try and see just how terrible the native app experience is compared to what it could be.
And this belief is based on what exactly? If you think critically about this, it stands to reason that the impact should not be small if it's worth it to Reddit to get people off of 3rd party mobile apps and put eyes on ads in the first party app.
If they didn't want to support 3rd party apps, then that's a decision they are allowed to make. It sounds to me as if that's the decision they want to make but don't have the moral fortitude to make out right. Instead, they've tried to make the API unappealing for someone to want to use. In the end, it is the same result. So just because they are putting a very high price tag does not mean that's the actual cost/worth, but just a number they put out to scare people away.
As contractors, we have the same option to us by responding to a request with an outrageous fee that you think nobody will pay so you can avoid having to actually say no.
Oh I can even believe that this fucked up CEO is just a liar and knows exactly that the API pricing will kill apps of and just does it on purpose.
But he will be the person to increase revenue anyway.
Because he can now say that whatever app survived this is now paying for it instead.
I actually believe reddit when they say the impact is small
In terms of user counts that's undoubtedly true. In terms of user influence I think that's yet to be determined. I think June 12-13 will be fascinating as a view of just how much of reddit and reddit content is managed by people affected by and unhappy about these changes.
Mods and highly influential users aren't evenly distributed across the user base by account age. Older accounts are more likely to be in both of those categories, and they're also more likely to have shifted to third party apps at some point particularly when those apps addressed problems they were having. There are communities that will never come back from this, and there are users who've earned reputation who will react by removing all their content and their accounts.
In a lot of ways HN is like a single highly-active subreddit - what would the impact be if the chronically underappreciated dang got fed up, removed everything he'd ever posted, and quit? How about if in his position as moderator he decided that it was time for the sub to go away and applied automoderation in such a way as to remove all posts?
Only if you believe that all users are equal, but just like free to play games that have whales Reddit has power users that create most of the content and are typically the mods that work for free. They are going to be the most impacted by the API cost changes, and if they leave Reddit will not work.
Then why raise the API rates if it so "insignificant"? Short sighted GREED. See the Studios opening up their own streaming services to choke out NetFlix and observe how that is playing out even for DISNEY+.
If they are insignificant, then it's a really stupid bad-PR hill to die on.
Oh yes absolutely but I don't think they will die on this PR hill, that's exactly my point.
For me I will continue to use reddit as I have before.
I think you’re wrong - the audience that Reddit was built on is paying attention to this, and it’s going to have a lot of knock on effects. People who have been around for a while. Hell, I was one of the people that moved from Digg to Reddit in 2009 and I’m barely in my thirties.
Do I think it’s going to kill Reddit? No. But I think this is going to have a large effect on their IPO and they will be treated as a hostile entity going forward than a neutral one, and that will add up over time. There’s no plausible deniability.
The thing is, I think a lot of moderators use third-party apps.
So, while it may be a small percentage of users, I suspect that losing them (or even just impairing their ability to moderate) will have an outsized negative impact on reddit.
I've seen this argument in other places and it makes an error in assuming all users are equal in what they bring. It's common in MMO communities - why do the devs spend so much time working on high end raids enjoyed by only 1% of the player base? For Reddit, I would assume mobile users are more motivated - motivated enough to install an app at least - and probably contribute more UGC to the site. Not to mention unpaid moderators.
>I'm using reddit for ages and never even considered anything besides their website.
Same. I have never used anything other than old.reddit on a proper computer, with the exception being when I need to edit the new.reddit sidebars for subs I moderate, which I still do on a proper computer.
the (passive) consumers may use the native interfaces, but the power users - especially the mods - use 3rd party apps. the bigger subs are pretty much unmoddable without them.
they might not lose many users, but they'll lose their most important users.
Uhh, I'm pretty sure that you and me and anyone on this site are extremely far from a representative sample of Reddit's userbase these days. It is a fact that their traffic is primarily from their official (and shitty) mobile app.
> I actually believe reddit when they say the impact is small
I think this neglects the power struggle that would occur if its many unpaid moderators who do use apps far more than any other group, either shutdown subreddits or straight up quit.
The impact will be small?
I won't be using Reddit on mobile going forward, and I'll stop using it on desktop when old.reddit inevitably goes away.
That sounds like a pretty big impact for me...
You are right. But I didn't argue from your point of view but from reddit.
Sure, and that's why they value API users around 20x more than their website users ? (based on the rough estimation in the post)
I'm in the same boat tbh, website and app are good enough for me, I really don't understand the need for other apps.
Are you a mod?
What percentage of contributors use 3rd party/API-driven tools?
>are only a loud minority.
is this a rule of the internet about the most vocal part of the community tends to be a tiny percentage? the "people on the internet" are screaming about something again today. in a previous job, i was introduced to this first hand. that's when i learned people will just double down on an incorrect theory/comment when shown incontrovertible evidence. yet, when you look at the numbers of the people shouting online is just a tiny percentage, but causes so much work for people to defend against. they come across as petulant children throwing tantrums because they didn't get exactly what they wanted.
> are only a loud minority.
Hmmm ...
Apollo says they have 50K paying users. That seems pretty insignificant. And where else are they going to go? Twitter?
To be clear, that’s people paying a monthly subscription fee for an app that is free and has several premium one time IAP unlocks.
For example, I paid for Apollo Pro as a one time thing so I’m not a subscriber. Only people paying for Apollo Ultra every month are counted. That 50k is just the most invested and dedicated of Apollo users.
And millions of free users.
"Why would even a ruthless money-over-everything Wall Street investor want to gamble on that?"
I think you are missing an even larger point here. What is Reddit without its communities and users? At the end of the day, if people are no longer love using Reddit, there's nothing left to their business. How anybody thinks that the API decision was a good one in light of that (alienating your own power users) is beyond twitteresque.
At this point, I'm just glad Apollo's author will be able to get some indemnification (and cover his refunds) with the likely lawsuit that will come from this lie.
Then he might finally be able to cover the API costs for a month.
> It is really astounding to see the CEO of Reddit being caught in a blatant lie denigrating a third party developer whose work has done a lot for the platform and who has the ear of a reasonably sized and loud portion of the community.
I listened to the audio. It was very clear from the get-go the minute he said pay me $10m they were taking it very seriously, they said repeatedly "I just want to be very clear about what you're saying" and then said "that's sounds like a threat". The wording doesn't really make sense for a native English speaker when talking about a buyout. And they end that part with "I'm just going to hope that's not what you meant." which is generally how someone acts when they think you've threatened them but are going to be civil about it. So I don't think it's fair to say it's a blatant lie. And wouldn't you know it, what they thought was being threatened is what is happened?
It’s 140% clear from both the audio and the transcript that this whole buyout thing is a failed to land joke. And it is not even a problematic thing! Why would offering to sell their own app be a negative? The negative, threat part is from a misunderstood expression of “quiet down”, which was meant about the API calls.
But even from Christian’s voice.. I swear, should we start using /s in real life as well?!
> I swear, should we start using /s in real life as well?!
No, but sarcasm is a tool and using it carries its own meaning, especially in negotiations.
I am not a native speaker but I first read the transcript and then listened to the audio. It sounds like a Good Fellas dialogue. To my non-businesses ears you don't propose a $10m deal for things to go quietly, even in terms of API usage. It makes no sense. I don't see where's the leverage in that unless quiet refer to "no fuss from me" because Reddit could legally just close the API without paying the dev. If Reddit were to give even a dollar to the dev for Apolo to slowly go away and with the promise the dev wouldn't make a fuss about it that would be extortion right ?
> If you want to rip that band-aid off once. And have Apollo quiet down, you know, six months. Beautiful deal. Again this is mostly a joke, I'm just saying if the opportunity cost is that high, and if that is something that could make it easier on you guys, that could happen too.
Again, I am not a native speaker and I havent' listened to the whole conversation just that segment, maybe there were other attempts like that at humor ?
edit: just read that comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36248834
> From reading the transcript it reads to me that Reddit says Apollo is costing them $20 mil a year from lost opportunity cost, which I take to mean advertising/tracking et? The Apollo dev seems skeptical of that cost and is jokingly suggesting that if they cut him a $10 mil check, they can make it up in 6 months purely from getting that "opportunity" back with the added benefit Apollo just disappears.
> I look at less of a threat and more of a calling the bluff...
Could be but there are no laugh or tone that suggests the dev is joking or half-joking, there no audio cues that suggests "hey, it's a joke" but maybe it's the end of a 3 hours long talk and fatigue adds up and the joke really fell flat (edit: listening again, I can hear audio cues in the dev speech pattern at the end that indicates the intent to joke).
Jeez, and they made those TV shows about courts and crimes and lawyers look so easy to spot liars, jokers, innoncents, culprits :D.
To me, as a native speaker, it sounds like it was a serious offer but he didn't know how else to bring it up. Which I don't blame him. And I think he knew what the Reddit community response was going to be like and he sure as hell worded his original post that started this off really well to make sure the reddit community went nuts.
For me "go quiet" doesn't even make sense in that conversation other than the way it was taken. In the terms of loud api user, it would still have been a large user of the API if Reddit owned it or not.
I can't wait until next month for it to all blow over. Because I really don't see anyone building a competitor.
I listened to the audio as well. Can you please explain how you think Spez interpreted the threat? He thinks that Apollo is threatening to blast them on social media? Slander him? Break his legs? Murder him?
>He thinks that Apollo is threatening to blast them on social media?
Threaten him with pretty much what he did. We'll go quietly instead of making a large amount of noise and complaining and getting the generally hostile Reddit user base riled up.
Except thats not at all what he said. The noise referred to the amount of API "noise" he generates. Which reddit likes to pretend is costing them millions.
I didn't say he said it, I said that's what I think Spez thought.
I haven't listened to the audio recording per se but that was my understanding, too, by reading this guy's written description of what happened.
Him and Spez (or whatever his name is) got together in a tense meeting on two opposing sides, there was a failure of communication (like in many such cases), things escalated for a bit after that but, in the end, I see that Spez recognised that he had understood things in an incorrect manner. That is I see no deliberate "lying" coming from the reddit CEO.
> That is I see no deliberate "lying" coming from the reddit CEO.
Days afterward, spez got on a conference call and falsely claimed that Christian was blackmailing him. An employee of Reddit itself affirmed that he said it in a summary of the call they posted to a (private) sub of high-level moderators, replicated here:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/reddit_he...
(The summary in the main thread was written by members of the community on the call, the comment I linked is Reddit’s own summary.)
Reddit has also repeated the same claim off-the-record to multiple journalists.
Got it, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that is very similar to lying.
I believe the referenced "lying" is not in the call, but when afterwards he claimed internally that the incorrect understanding was the true one.
Spez has always made Ellen Pao look like a genius CEO
>Bullies need to learn that the truth will come out eventually,
At this point, this is just speculation and wishful thinking on your part. History has shown that this is not always the outcome. Things we try to teach kids like "winners don't cheat, and cheaters don't win", "crime doesn't pay", or any similar platitudes do not hold true in real life which adults live. If Reddit were to die tomorrow, it would affect me in no way. So this has all been a bunch of popcorn eating for me to watch everyone on their soapboxes make outlandish statements made on pure emotion.
It's the same as people always saying "The winners write the history" while most of what the public took as gospel about Nazi Germany came from the very people who ran it, like autobiographies and memoirs from literal Nazi military higher ups.
The myth that Germany lost the war because of "human wave tactics" of the Soviets is exactly one of those lies from the losers.
Their fight with ad blocking is the same Cold War every other social media site has. If they’re serving ads off of distinctly named infrastructure, or even distinctly subnetted or IP-addressed infrastructure, an adblocking router config will kill them no matter, & there’d be people writing those and distributing them. Their only hope would be to serve ads inline with content, to defeat those. Which … they already do, I think? I dunno. It would be how they’d serve adverts to Apollo users and RiF users. I think the biggest adblocking issue they have is people on desktop chrome & Firefox. Who already aren’t using the API.
They didn’t lock old.reddit out of new features; it’s a really unwieldy codebase, and making changes to old,reddit is like shaking a wooden water tower. It holds up the water tank as long as it’s a static load, not dynamic. I’ve had to read / maintain / debug source code in my career - and I’ve read the old open sourced Reddit code, and it is … well, it’s not designed for building up and out. It’s not even designed for maintaining over time. It was designed to get a message board running with occasional weekly downtimes, and a lot of “you broke reddit” and a bunch of RSS feeds and API endpoints, and no view to end user experience. It was built with the same mindset as building windows 3.1. Coding some of the features would be like backporting their support code to windows 3.1 - but not as libraries, as device drivers.
Ad blocking companies then come to publishers with extortion payment plans.
After carefully reading the comments and going back to the post, I take back my argument. It was flawed and did not represent the whole picture. I apologize for that. I think it wasn't a threat, but rather an unsuccessful attempt to sell Apollo before time runs out. I apologize for the confusion I created with my poor argument. I need to read more carefully.
--- I initially clicked on this post fully prepared to be outraged at Reddit and its CEO, but after carefully going through the audio, I just can't share that sentiment. I've listened to the recording multiple times, making sure that I'm not missing any crucial points in the conversation. It is evident to me that this statement, "if you want Apollo to go quiet," did come across as a threat.
Yes, the developer tried to backtrack later in the call by adding "in terms of API usage," but the damage was already done. Steve's side even provided several opportunities for him to clarify his statement, claiming that he couldn't hear him properly. I understand that many members of this community are rightfully upset with Reddit and its actions in recent years (me included), but we cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that it really felt and sounded like a threat. ---
Transcript of the call: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f9...
Audio: http://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-3...
In the most charitable possible interpretation for Christian, he spoke in a way that was misinterpreted, conclusively clarified it at the end of the call, both parties shared an apology for the misunderstanding, and then Steve made public comments of the original misinterpretation only (with an editorialized paraphrase).
In the least charitable possible interpretation for Christian, he made an implicit threat that he would continue to raise community clamor if not bought out, then backtracked it as soon as he was asked about it, both parties shared an apology for a misunderstanding neither believed was really a misunderstanding, and then Steve made public statements of the original interpreted threat only, with that editorialized paraphrase. In responding to that statement, Christian announced his app would close in 22 days, so it sounds like he can't be doing much with Reddit's community by then regardless.
I don't see the point in either of these situations for Steve to have said what he did, and he must have been aware of how this call could be interpreted in transcript and did it anyway. If I was hearing about this as a disagreement between business partners retold in a bar conversation, I might give reddit's team the same benefit of the doubt as you. In this case, it doesn't seem to matter much. The question remains WTF was spez thinking even making those comments.
I actually think the most charitable position doesn't require either one to have any negative intentions. This is quite possibly a very simple explanation: It is possible to apologize in the face of feeling threatened, even if you are not in fact under any threat, and then later reconcile one's feelings of being threatened in a space where they feel safer.
There's a common error where, because one believes they have been aggressed upon, they can behave as if they actually have been aggrieved without actually examining realistic positions of actual evidence. I've seen this sort of thing happen in a variety of circumstances. Whether or not the Apollo developer intended to threaten or not doesn't actually change the behavior of the person who took whatever was said as a threat, and acting in a reconciliatory manner when one feels threatened is actually a very reasonable thing to do.
Great charitable interpretations! I wish you had done this impartially for both parties, but no worries! Now, let's look at the situation realistically. Let's say that instead of Steve's side asking for clarifications, he had agreed to pay Christian $10M when he said "I could make it really easy on you, if you think Apollo is costing you $20 million per year, cut me a check for $10 million and we can both skip off into the sunset. Six months of use. We're good. That's mostly a joke." Would Christian then say, "Oh no, I was merely making a joke," or would he accept the offer?
And do you think if Steve had made this offer, would we have even heard a second of this recording?
I mean, come on guys. He literally said "I can make it easy on you," named a price, and then clarified that he was mostly joking.
edit: Thank you for catching that! I've now changed "Steve" with "Steve's side."
You are misinterpreting the whole situation. The price/selling is not even the “misunderstandable” part — there is no evil in telling a company that they could earn back half of their “lost” opportunity cost by buying out Christian’s app. It was quite clearly a joke (that didn’t land), but what exactly is evil about that, besides possibly Apollo’s community’s hurt feelings?
The misinterpretation came from the ‘quieting down’ expression, which referred to the API usage (I think quite obviously).
>I wish you had done this impartially for both parties
instead of your thought experiment, I'd request you just pose your impartial take on the most charitable view for Steve and explain why in that view it was a reasonable act of good leadership for him to make these comments. Otherwise I don't think we're really talking about the same thing.
You've quoted the transcript elsewhere for people to "decide for themselves" and I'm not sure how you could be convinced we all did in fact read it and already did, and just don't agree with you.
Well, I don't agree with myself too anymore! I stand correct, and I apologize for the confusion I created with my poor argument. I need to read more carefully.
Hey, for what it's worth I think it was valuable to take a critical look at the situation and where the real wrongdoing vs internet outrage snowball lies. And I think with this outcome I've experienced a civil and rewarding discussion of alternating viewpoints that is delightfully un-reddit!
> Let's say that instead of Steve asking for clarifications
It was not Steve on the call, it was an unnamed Reddit employee. Christian makes this clear in his post.
Yes, the developer tried to backtrack later in the call...
You say it was later in the call, but it was an immediate request for clarification and then reworded and clarified once that statement was made. There wasn't some long back and forth where the developer finally relented and changed his mind.
If anything, the immediate response of "No, no, sorry. I didn't mean that to-" seems to indicate that he wanted to clarify what he meant.
And "if you want Apollo to go quiet" isn't the original quote anyways, not sure why you had to paraphrase but pretend otherwise.
Instead of arguing further, I'll directly drop the verbatim quote from the transcript here so that people can decide for themselves:
Christian: I said "If you want Apollo to go quiet". Like in terms of- I would say it's quite loud in terms of its API usage.
Right, but the original statement that was meant to be the "threat" was "If you want to rip that band-aid off once. And have Apollo quiet down, you know, six months." where the wording lines up with "...it's quite loud in terms of its API usage".
The complaint was not with the audio call itself, but how Steve had paraphrased the audio call to others not in attendance, specifically saying:
> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million."
> Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us."
In the audio call Steve apologizes for the misinterpretation after clarifying, but then goes off and still makes claims of threats.
I strongly disagree. First of all, in normal situations, you can't "threaten" a billion dollar company as an individual. The power balance there is so asymmetrical that any logical person's first thought shouldn't be "the individual has threatened the billion dollar company". Sure there might be exceptions, whistle blowing, etc. but overwhelmingly, this rule holds.
It is clear that Christian was asking Reddit to buy out Apollo. It was a business proposition. Pay me 6 months, and I'll shut off my app, which is what Reddit wants. They want more users on their official app so they can make revenue. The language he used was clumsy, but it is clear, and it was clarified afterwards. The natural easy response is to say no, we are unwilling to pay, end of conversation.
The problem here is that Reddit seems to be litigating free-flowing language from part of a conversation as part of its defense for its changes. That is not only ridiculous, but wildly inappropriate.
To be honest, reddit has all the justification it needs to do what they're doing. Do I think they're making the right decision? No. But they're free to raise prices however they want. It's their API. But a billion dollar company accusing an individual of threatening them and then continuing to litigate the words used even after clarifications have been made is indicative of a catastrophic leadership failure on Reddit's side.
> But they're free to raise prices however they want. It's their API.
They may not be. According to Christian's post, they told him they will not do that in 2023. Were he inclined to sue them, he might be able to hold them to that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel#Reliance-based_estopp...
I believe what's happening here is that Reddit leadership feels like they've been threatened, and are acting accordingly without seriously considering the actual power imbalance. People under privilege rarely, if ever, actually consider their relative power when disagreeing with people in less power than them and have exaggerated responses when people in less power than them try to gain any leverage, such as an app developer trying to negotiate with the platform the app runs on. You can also observe this when people get very upset about $perceived_thing_that_people_less_well_off_than_them_get. I'd list exact examples but I fear I'd distract with people getting angry, lol.
> It is evident to me that this statement, "if you want Apollo to go quiet," did come across as a threat.
I just listened to your audio link several times, and I totally disagree that it sounded like a threat.
Also, the call was not with Steve, as Christian explained:
> Have you talked to CEO Steve Huffman about any of this?
> I requested a call to talk to Steve about some suggestions I had, his response was "Sorry, no. You can give name-redacted a ping if you want."
From reading the transcript it reads to me that Reddit says Apollo is costing them $20 mil a year from lost opportunity cost, which I take to mean advertising/tracking et? The Apollo dev seems skeptical of that cost and is jokingly suggesting that if they cut him a $10 mil check, they can make it up in 6 months purely from getting that "opportunity" back with the added benefit Apollo just disappears.
I look at less of a threat and more of a calling the bluff...
I’m curious what the threat here is. Is the implication that they can pay 10 Million and he shuts down the app quiet or he shuts the app down revealing the cost of the API?
The implication is they buy the app and do what they like with it.
The alternative is that he has no choice but to shut down the app, given that they've announced what the price will be 30 days before it's introduction. Even if he'd said nothing there would have been a shitstorm; the timing would be obvious.
Reasonable notice of the price increase would have given 3rd party developers time to monetise and meet the new costs. A more reasonable price could have been borne by 3rd party apps with very little fuss. Making API access a premium Reddit feature would have put even more money in Reddit's pocket. Buying out the 3rd party apps would have been unpopular but would give Reddit the appearance of being less incompetent, underhanded, and duplicitous.
Instead, Reddit made literally the worst possible choice in this situation: alienating their users and the moderators that do most of the work on the platform.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but reddit is trying to do an IPO soon and this guy is projecting a lot of uncertainty about their business. He's offering to stop that if he gets paid off.
(for the record, I almost feel like he's in the right to do so. Still weird how this is being presented)
He jokingly offered that the whole situation can easily be solved — he shuts down/sells his app for half of the “lost” money reddit would make were Apollo’s users using the official app. Win-win for both sides. The other side of the phone call misinterpreted a “quiet down” expression, which was used for the API calls from Apollo servers (serving which costs Reddit money).
It seems too ambiguous to judge, honestly.
It seems like he was trying to invoke a sort of ironic use of quiet down to ease the situation, but ironic extortion is still extortion.
It's not extortion -- the whole point of the joke is that the pricing is so ridiculous that it would be a massive discount to Reddit if they just bought his app for $10 million.
the first part yes, the second part would be more like causing a public nuisance.
Did you miss the part where spez apologised for misunderstanding him?
Same, while it's blatantly clear that Reddit is trying to kill 3rd party apps, I don't get the sentiment that this is being misrepresented at all. The audio gives me a very strong "would be a shame if someone would stir up trouble, $10M can make it all disappear" vibe, just as how the CEO interpreted it.
It’s absolutely not that, not from a hundred miles. The guy was jokingly telling that if the free usage of reddit’s apis cost them $20million bucks in a year, than for half of that he can “quit down” the API calls by shutting down the app, letting the users back to the main site where they could generate that opportunity cost.
Here's an interview with the Apollo author about the situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypwgu1BpaO0
I think that interpretation is incorrect and based on Christian's attitude towards the whole thing. More likely it's projection on the part of Reddit's CEO.
The call wasn't with Steve, and it was clear to me listening that he wasn't making a threat at all. He was talking about the API chatter, it was obvious to me.
I think, for one, it is important to note that Christian doesn't say "go quiet". He said "quiet down", and those carry different interpretable implications regardless of context (the latter having much less potential implied threat imo).
Second, listening to the actual audio, it doesn't sound like a threat at all, and it all cleared up right away.
He's saying:
"You are claiming that my app is costing you $20M a year in API calls. Just buy it from me for $10M. Then it's yours to shut down if you want, or modify, or whatever you want to do with it."
That's not a threat. At that point it seems like he didn't have any obligation to do anything, and was offering them a mutually beneficial deal. Reddit's cost go down by $20M a year, he gets paid, and everybody (except probably the apollo users) benefits.
This is exactly correct.
It is always amazing to me how easily people will accept however an issue is framed for them on social media.
Of course this was a threat. It wasn't a language issue. And the post-hoc explanation was nonsense. It was an obvious and indisputable threat.
> It is always amazing to me how easily people will accept however an issue is framed for them on social media.
And it’s even more amazing when people think they are smarter “than the average” and go the exact opposite way just because, failing a proper evaluation.
> Is spez (Steve Huffman, CEO and cofounder) going to lose his job over this?
If spez wasn’t fired on the spot for abusing his power to manually edit posts critical of him, why would you expect them to sack him over something that actually has a legitimate business angle?
This seems like an even more egregious act, it's like attempted character assassination of a developer beloved by the community. This app got shouted out in WWDC and Spez's decision shortly after is to concoct an alternate reality where Christian is a villain and present it as fact, and then get caught almost immediately.
It seems apparent Spez is burdened by a serious lack of ethics, and I think that burden is now compromising Reddit as well much more than before. As far as I know, going to IPO with a crook at the helm usually only works if they haven't been caught multiple times first.
Edit: Really, what an especially awful thing to do to a developer whose full-time job your policy change has just shut down - tell the world they're an extortionist liar from your comfy office.
I feel like it is much, much simpler than that
Reddit makes money off of ads, and Apollo doesn’t show ads. The same was the case for Twitter and Tweetbot. In some ways, Christian is directly capturing revenue that Reddit otherwise would.
I would agree that the proposed API pricing is not a workable starting point, but I do think Apollo (and, by proxy, its users) will eventually have to pay Reddit something.
Regardless of how simple the business case for this change is or is not, Steve's choice to egregiously lie about his conversation with Christian is a completely unnecessary and frankly daft risk to take. It's bullying, and he was almost immediately caught out as a liar.
I cannot understand how anyone in his team with a sturdy ethical compass could look him in the eye after seeing that post, especially if they were party to the original conversation. I can't remember the last time I saw a corporate leader get caught in such a high profile absolute falsehood, especially directed at a single individual.
If this reflects the company's culture I have no idea how it can succeed as a public firm. How will Steve deal with criticism from public investors? What is he not willing to lie about?
Reddit is terrible at everything but getting a massive user base in the early 2010s, which it has coasted on since. They could have had a phenomenal IPO in 2021, but with the current market conditions they don’t really have a hook (no AI involvement).
Their best case scenario is really Twitter’s case, where they go public, have middling performance, and then get bought out by a billionaire after annoying them with bad moderation decisions lmao
> Steve's choice to egregiously lie about his conversation with Christian
Can you point to a source for this for those of us not familiar with his comments?
The thread linked at the top of this page covers the accusations made by Steve directed at Christian and includes the call recordings Steve was apparently unaware of completely contradicting those accusations.
Additionally, someone else in the comments here linked the text of a post[0] made in /r/partnercommunities with similar accusations to what's quoted in TFA.
[0]https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c...
> Why charge? > It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps. > It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
This is rich. The entire for-profit Reddit business is based on people contributing data for free, subsidizing their for-profit business. These guys couldn’t be any more clueless.
I remember a long while back someone on HN characterized the Reddit leadership team as like a regular driver who's dropped into the seat of a formula 1 car halfway through a race, in the lead. Tons of momentum but the person at the controls can't keep from steering it into the wall.
It hasn't stopped them from becoming personally wealthy and "powerful" in whatever world they live in. If you keep being told not to touch the hot stove, but not touching the hot stove doesn't burn you, not only will you NOT learn to not touch the stove, but you will learn to not listen to people who tell you not to do other things.
We owe it to the world to make sure touching the stove DOES burn you, otherwise it's just DARE all over again.
Thanks!
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_w...
See the section titled “ Bizarre allegations by Reddit of Apollo "blackmailing" and "threatening" Reddit”
Thanks!
Were Christian's conversations actually with Steve? Or were they with another employee, and then Steve mischaracterised them? It mentioned that an employee denied Christian access to Steve.
I don't use the app and I don't have any great attachment to Reddit, but I wondered if Reddit screwed themselves a bit here by not having a clearer link between the two parties. If either the Reddit employees involved or Steve entered the fray with any sort of bias/grievance, they likely misinterpreted the developer's comments.
This gets repeated a lot, with the assumption that they're refusing to pay at all, but in the very original post they highlight how they do pay for API usage elsewhere (Imgur) already and therefore have no problem adding Reddit to that at a reasonable cost.
I get the want to simplify things, but it's already simple enough:
1. Reddit brings out absurdly priced API
2. Developers don't want to pay that much
3. Reddit then behind the scenes berates developers, claiming they are trying to blackmail millions of dollars, to the apps serving harmful ads, to posting about how the apps aren't "good citizens" and instead are scraping wildly
4. Developers push back and announce app closures
If it was about "showing ads", they would have budged on price a long time ago, added in guidelines to use the API and serve ads, etc. This is about controlling user data, tracking every bit they can, leveraging their content, and then monetizing the fuck out of it in the age of AI.
They think their data is worth $X to AI and think that AI will pay that much.
They think $X is vastly larger than the $Y they would get from third party app developers. So, goodbye to third party app developers.
> They think their data is worth $X to AI and think that AI will pay that much.
which is absurd... the entirety of reddit has already been scraped before. the marginal utility of this today onward feed of data is a lot less than they think it is.
I'd respect them more if they just came out and admitted it.
in the moderator subreddit, the admins have stated several times that non-commercial access will remain free, and have skirted replying to direct questions, from what I can tell. u/spez (reddit ceo) is doing a ama tomorrow.
>Hi Mods,
We’re providing a follow-up on the last API update we made to make sure our mods, developers, and users have clarity on changes we are (and aren’t) making.
API Free Access
This exists and continues to be available.
If usage is legal, non-commercial, and helps our mods, we won’t stand in your way. Moderators will continue to have access to their communities via the API - including sexually explicit content across Reddit. Moderators will be able to see sexually-explicit content even on subreddits they don't directly moderate.
We will ensure existing utilities, especially moderation tools, have free access to our API. We will support legal and non-commercial tools like Toolbox, Context Mod, Remind Me, and anti-spam detection bots. And if they break, we will work with you to fix them.
Developers can continue non-commercial usage of the API, free of charge within stated rates. Reddit is also covering hosting for apps via the Developer Platform, which uses the Data API.
Have you looked at the rate limits? They changed it from 60 calls per user per client ID to 100 calls per minute per client ID. Nothing is getting built with limits that low
You make them sound like freeloaders, when in reality they provide value to the community by committing significant time contributing to Reddit through posts, comments, original content, and volunteer moderation.
Reddit is worthless without community contributions, and Reddit is very clearly telling the community (both users and developers) that they aren't valuable and should go find somewhere else to spend their time.
Yeah - obviously (imo).
Similarly to twitter third party api access with no ads doesn't make any sense for a business that's an ad business, it's stupid they've allowed this at all for as long as they have (and it was stupid for twitter to do the same).
If you want to build a non ad-based subscription business go ahead! I strongly prefer models that do that (e.g. substack), but if you're not going to do that then don't operate some weird half measure that's clearly counter to the company incentives. Apollo is just upset the free party is over.
I'm a little surprised reddit would not just shut it all down like twitter did since that makes more sense for this model, but having the price set crazy high is effectively the same thing anyway. It makes sense they don't want to negotiate, they'd rather have no third party API access at all.
This argument doesn't mean I'm a fan of data access and control (I'm not - I work on urbit to give people a way to escape it), but I recognize the business as it is. If you're running an ad business and allow third parties to build apps on your business that prevent you from controlling users at the client level (and prevent you from showing ads) you're making stupid decisions.
Like most things it's a problem of incentives. You can't fix the behavior without fixing the incentives. You can't escape the megacorp ad world we're trapped in by just wishing the existing incentives didn't exist.
You are missing the fact that these social media sites are 100% dependent on freely provided user-generated content. Third party apps were quite likely necessary for Reddit’s success so far. It’s much more complex than what you make it sound like.
Why fuck around with 20x pricing then? If the ARPU is on the order of $0.12 a month, why attempt to charge $2.50 a month?
He comments on that in the post: It's not about the cost of running the servers, it's about the "lost revenue" on that user.
From the post:
> Me: "Because I assume the majority of it isn't server costs. I assume the majority is the opportunity cost per user."
> Reddit: "Exactly.""
Reddit's doesn't care about the $0.12, they care about the ads that doesn't get shown.
As other's have pointed out, they probably think AI will pay them more than even ads. Or, since they want to IPO and cash out, they are betting, with the current hype around "AI", that public markets will value AI high enough to value "possible" data sources of AI highly.
...the reason they want to show the ads is so they can get paid for that.
This is likely an indication of their internal targets for ARPU over the next months as they start aggressively monetizing and push to IPO.
For reference, approximate global ARPU if converted to monthly for other social networks in 2022: Pinterest: ~$0.5, Snap: ~$1, Twitter: ~$1.6, FB: ~$3.3
This says the IPO roadshow will say Reddit has potential somewhere between Twitter and Facebook, which feels like the right sales pitch to me.
I think the $0.12 figure that was calculated on the post may have been too low.
Iirc, the entirety of Reddit’s user base was used for the calculation. My guess is that Apollo’s subset of users are much more active (and probably more lucrative in terms of ads and user data) than probably 99% of all Reddit users.
On the flip side side, if Apollo users are much more active, Reddit will be worse for lurkers if Apollo users disappear.
> Reddit will be worse for lurkers if Apollo users disappear
Within the realm of folks who are willing to pay for a Reddit skin, imagine that very few of them will just give up the site once their skin is gone.
More likely is that someone comes in and makes a similar app and charges more for it. Power users and professional users will pay, and most of them will gladly pay a premium.
Not gonna lie… I think op said he charged $10 a year. I raised my eyebrows… that should probably be the bottom option of a three-tier monthly price matrix.
I think someone should buy this app and just price it properly based on value add. Im not sure what the various user profiles of Apollo are, but my guess is that there are a few profiles that can be profitably monetized even with the new Reddit API charges. Imho, Reddit is being shortsighted, but they do have a unique and large community.
>that should probably be the bottom option of a three-tier monthly price matrix.
I'm so annoyed with three-tier monthly price matrices. It's honestly a red flag for me at this point.
> I'm so annoyed with three-tier monthly price matrices. It's honestly a red flag for me at this point.
On an aesthetic level, I agree with you. For some business, it’s just not needed.
That said…
As someone who has optimized pricing matrixes many times, I will just say that it works incredibly well. Also, for the whatever number people (like you? sort of like me?) who drop out due to “red flags”, there are legions more who allow their behavior to be shaped in an incredibly profitable way.
Yeah, I'd expect a lot of power users on the 3rd party clients are generating a lot of the content and doing free moderation that produces the product they can get the masses to use via the website/ official app.
It was already a calculation with massively generous values — come on, hardware serving easily cache-able data is dirt cheap, especially when quite a lot of that is just text. And there is data from Christian about the average daily API calls an Apollo user makes, so no need to guess.
> If the ARPU is on the order of $0.12 a month
Is that a matter of fact? How do you know it isn't higher? Also consider that it's not just advertising, it is also about funneling users to new products Reddit may want to develop
You can see how that number is derived in the post. It's based on very optimistic projections from data that reddit has previously released about their revenue, and very pessimistic projections of their user growth. If reddit somehow has massively increased the value they can get from each user compared to that I think the burden of proof is on them for that.
From TFA, $0.12 is an optimistic calculation taking better-than-best revenue divided by a pessimistic user count. We can double that again if you're expecting a late-stage product like reddit to launch a new highly monetizable feature soon, and it's still quite far away.
... then require apps to show ads to users that don't pay reddit for ad-free access?
What does this look like in practice? Reddit devs extend their ad platform into the API and then make a mandatory design guideline, which they require with whatever app has x API demand level?
I guess the Reddit premium users just have to use Reddit apps to get it ad free?
> What does this look like in practice? Reddit devs extend their ad platform into the API and then make a mandatory design guideline, which they require with whatever app has x userbase?
Pretty much. Long tail of tiny-userbase clients probably doesn't matter that much, I suspect a small number of apps that can reasonably be spot-checked if it complies is the vast majority of traffic.
> I guess the Reddit premium users just have to use Reddit apps to get it ad free?
No reason third-party apps couldn't be allowed to be ad-free for premium users too. (or if the API is explicitly pushing "show ad URL X to user in this context" the API can take care of adjusting that)
Except the way Reddit works increasing the volume of users, even if they aren't seeing ads, provides the entirety of the value of the site that the users who are seeing ads come to see.
This 100% reeks of business people who don't even care to understand what Reddit is coming in and seeing the raw metrics of "% of users who aren't seeing ads" and the "lost" revenue.
Can’t Reddit just have a tiered API: one pricing for ad-free API and another for ad-supported? Surely a system could be put in place to ensure compliance.
I have to think there was a path here for Reddit to get its ad money without alienating so many users and mods.
in TFA paying a price isn't a problem. The insanely high price isn't necessarily even a dealbreaker (Apollo is a paid app already, though it'll be a steep as hell increase). The issue is he (and everyone else) had 30 days notice between the new pricing and the pricing going into force, which is not enough to actually adapt to the changes without going deeply into the read in the meantime (for example, much of Apollo's users are on a yearly plan).
Reddit could just return the ads via the api & mandate how they are displayed in apps.
> but I do think Apollo (and, by proxy, its users) will eventually have to pay Reddit something.
Apollo will never pay, because it's shutting down. It was always an option to monetize 3PA but Reddit decided not to.
Christian agrees, as he describes in the linked post. But the pricing and timeline are untenable.
>It seems apparent Spez is burdened by a serious lack of ethics [...]
10 years too late.
Your first mistake was assuming these social media companies aren't run by complete sociopaths.
Why would it be limited to social media companies? Have companies like Airbnb done anything to show YC companies are more or less just as bad (once they are big of course)
Reddit is a YC company. One of the first
A second mistake is thinking these types aren't in lots of other businesses and even government! Just happening on smaller scale to smaller groups.
In my experience, some amount of sociopathic behavior among executives is not the exception, it's the rule.
Good point, I totally forgot that he was caught editing posts directly in the production DB https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...
I hate Reddit, Reddit Admins, Reddit Mods, etc more than most people. Especially how they love to gaslight you and subtly screw you over/sabotage you, as we saw with their attacks on the_donald.
BUT if you take the edits in context, there was nothing wrong with them. Dozens of people were talking shit, and he responded by very lightly and very obviously trolling them. There were still a lot of old school internet users/4chan types running the show back then, so they should have been able to deal with a tiny bit of counter-trolling without losing their minds.
It would be impossible for me to disagree more. Editing someone's comments to put your own words in their mouth is despicable. Basically, he impersonated those users and put them on record as saying something they'd never said. It's like the text version of a deep fake recording.
I don't disagree with this take, I just disagree with your implied evaluation of how important that is. Who cares if he put some usernames on record as saying something they never said?
I know that you do, and you have your reasons, but...well, I don't. I think people are taking reddit commenting way too seriously if heads need to roll over a comment edit.
I almost can't believe you're serious here, but I'll reply sincerely.
Suppose dang edited your post to say "I like to get drunk at work", and there it is for the world to see. You never said that, but anyone looking at Hacker News would see:
"qup 10 minutes ago: I like to get drunk at work."
No, that's absolutely not OK! Now, consider that spez could just as easily edit some old Reddit comments someone wrote years ago to say something horrendous. Do you often go back to verify that all your old comments are unchanged? I certainly don't.
I have no way of knowing exactly which comments spez edited, or how significantly he changed them. And honestly, the not knowing is simply inexcusable. All we know is that he has tampered with the production database, not how often or how much.
> All we know is that he has tampered with the production database, not how often or how much.
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.
Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus is a Latin maxim meaning "false in one thing, false in everything". At common law, it is the legal principle that a witness who testifies falsely about one matter is not credible to testify about any matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsus_in_uno,_falsus_in_omnib...
A phrase that eerily yet accurately sums up (or some would believe to sum up) lots of public discourse these days.
https://twitter.com/InternetHippo/status/870010013900611584
Before: I have no evidence that spez tampers with anyone's reddit comments in production
After: I have evidence that spez tampered with ONE reddit comment in production.
The new status quo does not increase the likelyhood of "I have evidence that spez may be inexplicably tampering with old reddit comments habitually" being more true.
And thinking that it does shows a poor understanding of human behaviour and nature, especially under stressful emotional circumstances.
I'm serious. Who doesn't like to get drunk at work? I do (it's only happened once, but it's one of my best memories).
Dang can edit my comments. (He does have to edit comments sometimes, I'm sure, but for reasons you approve of.) I would find it annoying. Until this comment thread, though, I'm not sure I would have considered that dang would get fired for it.
I don't think I nor anyone should be held accountable at work for comments made on Hacker News. If I lost my job over dang editing my post, I would think I worked for a really shit company and nobody went to bat for me. Basically, I would continue believing the interaction on the forum was totally unimportant, and I would be dumbfounded by the idiocy of my manager for elevating it to that a fireable offense, particularly after I let them know I did not make that comment.
FWIW, nobody needs to worry about me. I do not have a boss.
> I don't think I nor anyone should be held accountable at work for comments made on Hacker News.
> FWIW, nobody needs to worry about me. I do not have a boss.
Great, but now bring it back to real life, because a ton of people are held accountable at work for comments made on social media and do have a boss.
A ton of people deal with all kinds of shitty problems at work, and the answer to most of them isn't to petition to fire some random dude that nobody in the situation has ever met who works for some other uninvolved company. The answer is to fix the shitty internal process that lets powers-that-be stalk and fire people for social media posts.
Bringing it back to real life: I don't fire my people for what they say on the internet.
What situation do you think dang would need to edit a comment that a deletion wouldn't work?
HN isn't partnering with the CIA to catch some Russian spy by modifying a comment so that the drop is in a monitored location. He's just going to delete the comment if it contains something it shouldn't.
> Who doesn't like to get drunk at work? I do (it's only happened once, but it's one of my best memories).
This is the saddest thing I've read all week and my uncle just died.
It wasn’t the first time he did it, it was the first time he got caught.
> Suppose dang edited your post to say "I like to get drunk at work"
You're generalizing the action described in the article to something that feels very different to me. Yes, his actions fall under "editing comments"; yes, your hypothetical falls under "editing comments"; yes, I think that his actions make him more likely to do something like your hypothetical; no, I don't think that we should treat his actions like your hypothetical because they are different.
> Reddit CEO Steve Huffman today admitted that he had edited Reddit user comments that criticized and insulted him, wielding his power to anonymously change references to his own username, and replace them with moderators of the pro-Donald Trump subreddit, r/the_donald.
> Huffman — who posts on the site as "spez" — admitted to the transgression after being called out by users of r/the_donald, saying he was inspired to edit the comments after a spate of insults emanating from the pro-Trump subreddit. "I messed with the “fuck u/spez” comments, replacing "spez" with r/the_donald mods for about an hour," Huffman said, indicating that the only thing he secretly altered was the target of the insults.
I think there are two distinct things getting mixed up.
Should he have been able to? No, that's a concerning setup for the reasons you say.
How bad is what he actually did, from what we actually know? For about an hour, comments that said "fuck spez" after he banned the pizzagate sub were changed to "fuck $the_donald_mod_name".
I just don't find that a big deal. It's not like editing your comment to say you drink at work.
The problem is that it is impossible to prove he has never done that other times. He played his hand that he is willing to put words in other people's mouths basically just for entertainment, so why should we believe he hasn't done it in much more important cases?
Again that's one of the two things being discussed. My main point was that there were two things being discussed rather than one.
> He played his hand that he is willing to put words in other people's mouths basically just for entertainment, so why should we believe he hasn't done it in much more important cases?
I find this logic a bit backwards. Willing to do something when the stakes and impact are low to annoy someone trolling you is very different from changing comments in important situations.
Again, all we know is that he has lied about what users have said in comments. We just don't know to what degree. For me, not knowing that is completely unacceptable.
If he only made those changes and solemnly vowed never to do it again, fine, shouldn't have done it but whatever. But who besides him can say for sure?
> Again, all we know is that he has lied about what users have said in comments
You mean changing fuck spez to fuck $mod?
> We just don't know to what degree
Well I'm not sure what auditing they have, and I know there's public databases of all Reddit comments. It's been a while and I'm not aware of other claims.
My point was more that you two were arguing at crossroads. You seemed more concerned about what could have happened, and they were talking about what has evidence.
This is a short-sighted argument. A list of who cares:
* Any media reporting on what’s happening within Reddit. Remember when WSB was all over the news cycles? Picture that but with some malicious mod/admin setting somebody up to take the fall for equities fraud.
* Any person or entity with legal or fincial muscle looking to protect their reputation or product. You don’t want Wizards of the Coast sending the Pinkertons to your door because they think you’re selling stolen goods.
* Anyone who values their own reputation in the internet. Imagine being an aspiring politician and having somebody insert racial slurs into your historical posts.
The issue isn’t somebody being petty, it’s that there is potential for systemic abuse of power and trust.
Dude have you see some of the shit that happens to people over stuff they wrote on reddit n years ago?
This isn't the old days when everything on the internet was in good fun. For a lot of people these days, internet unironically srs bsns. And a lot of those people think it's okay to harass folks over their passing thoughts on the internet.
Imagine having to testify in court that you didn't actually say the things that the other attorney found in your social media posts, knowing that you really didn't say them but also knowing that no one's going to believe you. "Oh, sure you were hacked. _eye roll_"
Reddit activity has been used in court. Someone falsifying data is dangerous.
I still can't agree. I would counter that using reddit activity in court is dangerous.
I think that while the trolling wasn't egregious, the issue was that words were being put in their mouths, which undermines trust. It's a whole other level of manipulation compared to even just impersonating someone.
>as we saw with their attacks on the_donald
what attacks are you specifically referring to here, other than kicking them off the site?
There was this ongoing war of attrition by Reddit admins on the_donald (and on a lot of other subs, including their big cash cow WallStreetBets)
The admins always had some new rules and some specific ways they had to be enforced, and were always happy to heap ever-increasing punishments on the subreddits capriciously
Oh, you can't say "Retard" any more, if we find any more examples of this prohibited hate speech your subreddit is going to be actioned against. Also we banned half of your most active moderators for wrongthink. We'll continue banning moderators and levying punishments until the situation is rectified.
Whatever it was reddit claimed they did, they couldn't have done because they had already moved to a different site about four months before reddit "kicked them off". The subreddit had been locked the whole time.
Their manipulation of votes and what was allowed to be on /all is pretty well documented. After a certain point, the_donald and several other right-of-center subs were disallowed entirely to appear on the meta lists.
It should be noted we're typing this on one of the most heavily moderated (in both transparent and opaque ways) sites on the Internet.
Honestly? Good. So many of the right wing subs were absolute breeding grounds for content violations regarding hate speech, and the sub mods turned a blind eye. It was plainly obvious they were blatantly bad actors on the site long before they got quarantined and banned.
I mean yes that's my opinion, but it's important to look at possible neutral interpretations.
I don't think there is a neutral interpretation better than "the_donald was a lot of trouble for reddit as a business and social network, because they caused hostility, even by their existence, and it's not reddit's business to make humans less tribal, so why continue supporting them? Especially after they were clearly brigaiding and manipulating front page content. This front page manipulation was different from what the reddit owners wanted to be on the front page, which for the most part is benign and fun stuff that's easy to monetize."
The original sub was nothing special rule wise in my opinion. Did you ever visit their spinoff own site? It was psychotic in comparison. Kicking them off Reddit was a mistake for society at large.
How can you hate those groups but not hate the_donald where mods were also a disaster?! They absolutely love to gaslight you in general. Shouldn't a good faith response to a post in the_donald not be immediately removed and OP banned? The mods would never let any non-hyperventilated group think through. It's the same with r/conspiracy back then where I happily took my ban for calling out the worst mod I've ever encountered who would again ban good faith discussion for arbitrary reasons. r/politics mods are also horrible, to add some balance. I'm banned there too.
I hated the_donald plenty, mostly because they banned people for no reason or for stupid reasons. Which is the exact same offense that Reddit at large committed, but at least the_donald people were upfront about it.
I think we're on the same page overall here, just that I never put any faith in the sanctity of Reddit's database
>the_donald people were upfront about it
They sure as fuck were not! Even to this day, /Conservative still claims the moral high ground bastion of free speech and balance while banning you for any slight question of the narrative being encouraged. Importantly, this is VERBATIM what they claim /politics does.
the_donald made it very clear that they were a subreddit trying to mimic a Trump campaign rally. You could even be a conservative, mildly critical of Trump's policy and still get banned. It never claimed to be unbiased and proudly proclaimed the opposite.
On the other hand, we expect some level of fairness and professionalism from Reddit and its administrators.
He's doing an AMA about the API changes tomorrow. Bring popcorn. https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ce...
My memory on this is murky, although do I recall correctly that his reply to criticism of the production db comment edit amounted to something like “it was just a prank bro”?
Basically, and if it was a small-time forum, it would be more "reasonable".
But Reddit is and always has pretended to be a "big name" company like Youtube, Facebook, etc.
It seems to me that some people have no regard for the law, the ethics, the morals, etc.. If it benefits them to break it, they will do it, as long as they know they will face no or minimal consequences if caught.
They would even feel good about it because they have managed to obtain an unfair advantage and get away with it.
What an extremely strange equivalence you've drawn.
I run a small sub, about 50 people.
One day I looked at it, not logged in.
Turned out there was a post, "pinned by moderators", at the top of the post list, exhorting people to join the sub lounge - that real-time chat thing Reddit was pushing.
I never made that post, nor did I approve it, nor did I ever see it in the mod list of posts.
I logged in, and went to the mod list of posts - and lo and behold, somehow pinned to the bottom of the list of posts, so before the oldest post, is this post.
Reddit made that post, pushed it into my sub, pinned it, and hid it from me, not only by forcing it last in the list of posts, but also because when I log in as admin, the post is not shown to me!
Bloody hell.
At that point I knew Reddit could not be trusted.
>pushed it into my sub,
*their sub.
Is a bottle of water a bottle or water? Neither right? And I’d say a sub is the same.
A subreddit is neither a sub nor reddit?
Reddit is the bottle, user content is the water. I’m not sure where you draw tbe line per se, but seems like Reddit is doing their best to find out.
Reddit should try honestly.
"We are losing lots of money, we need to start making money, reddit gold isn't bringing in enough revenue to pay the bills. 3rd party apps don't show ads, which costs us a lot of money every month. Keeping the 3rd party APIs up and running also costs us money. Because Reddit needs to stop losing money, we are closing down 3rd party apps."
I don't know what why it is so hard to say that...
Reddit had an easy way out for the issue of 3rd party apps not showing ads, they already have a paid subscription which removes the ads on the official clients, so they could have made the API exclusive to users with a subscription. People would have been upset, but not this upset.
Exactly. In fact, Spotify works exactly like this: you can use any third-party client you like, so long as you have a Spotify Premium paid subscription. If you have a free account, you need to use the official clients with ads.
or the web client with an adblocker
shhhhh
Honestly, I think they would have had a sizeable amount of people paying for the subscription.
Now, even if they backtrack on this later on in a few months or years, they burned the good will, so I doubt developers are going invest the time to make a good Reddit client after this.
Not at all - if anything, this opened the door for more premium Reddit apps that charge monthly - with billing being in-line with Reddit Premium.
It also opened the door for a more premium non-Reddit app that charges monthly and directly competes with Reddit. From everything I've seen so far there might be enough of the existing Reddit community who are upset enough with the recent direction to make that leap viable and if the reported figures are accurate then the finances might also work if enough people jump ship to establish a new community.
Yes, but much like the "exodus" from Twitter, and others over the years - they all fail to reach critical mass. There's a very real early-mover effect, the likes of which have prevented Mastodon and even Truth from gaining huge ground.
Truth, being perhaps the most interesting, because the main personality behind it sort of compelled it to be semi-well-known simply because of media coverage. The other attempts do not share that effect, however.
They all fail to reach critical mass until someone does. That's always been the history of social networks. Once sites like Myspace and LiveJournal were everywhere. The next generation mostly went on Facebook and Facebook snapped up Instagram. Now a younger generation is on sites like TikTok. Digg and Slashdot are still going but they didn't stop Reddit becoming huge or more specialised sites with overlapping demographics (like HN for example) from building their own communities.
You're right that early movers have some advantage but it's a big world and the Next Big Thing doesn't have to win the whole market on day one - only enough of it to plant seeds that can grow over time.
> they already have a paid subscription which removes the ads on the official clients
Apollo is shutting down because the founder thinks they'll incur about $2.50 per month of costs per user, and apparently doesn't believe enough people will be willing to pay $5 monthly to keep Apollo running.
So, this Reddit Premium (billed at $5.99 monthly) either has few-to-no paid users, or Apollo's founder isn't even trying to sustain his business.
I don't understand your hostility, sorry.
He has 50,000 customers who paid $10/year for the app. Now he's put into a position to support those customers at $2.50/month. (He estimates their server cost is $0.10 per month.) That's an instant $125,000 per month out of his own pocket that he can't recoup from existing customers for at least the next 6 months.
Over the course of 2023, he'll have to pay Reddit $1 million MORE than he has made from the app this year.
Reddit doesn't want to work with third-party apps. That's fine. That's their right. But it's certainly not the app developer's fault that he's forced to quit.
> Reddit doesn't want to work with third-party apps
This sentiment is obviously false. Reddit doesn't want to support third-party apps at Reddit's own expense. That is reasonable.
> He has 50,000 customers who paid $10/year for the app
And now we get to the issue. This was never a sustainable business model. It depended on Reddit API being free - even at the massive volume Apollo operates at. That is unreasonable.
> And now we get to the issue. This was never a sustainable business model. It depended on Reddit API being free - even at the massive volume Apollo operates at. That is unreasonable.
Christian has already shared his correspondence on Reddit with this. He pretty clearly sought and received regular assurances that when and if Reddit moved their API to a paid model that it would be at a reasonable cost and with a flexible timeline to accommodate third party apps.
After telling him no such big moves were happening in 2023 they changed their mind, set punitively high prices and gave barely a month's notice.
> a paid model that it would be at a reasonable cost
What does this even mean? "Reasonable" is subjective - and from Reddit's perspective, I'd bet they believe the fees are reasonable.
It's on the business operator to mitigate risk. Apollo didn't do that - and is now throwing in the towel instead of charging their customer's more.
> set punitively high prices and gave barely a month's notice.
Apollo has had since April to figure out a new billing model - but sat on their hands hoping whatever Reddit came up with could be afforded with their existing $10 per year per user model. Say it out loud - it's absurd.
> Apollo has had since April to figure out a new billing model - but sat on their hands hoping whatever Reddit came up with could be afforded with their existing $10 per year per user model. Say it out loud - it's absurd.
Just stop.
You’ve been told multiple times, by multiple people, that this was not the case.
You’ve been provided the timeline, which you refuse to acknowledge.
You very well know that he was not provided the pricing until 8 days ago.
At this point, you continuing to say this is just being disingenuous and talking in bad faith.
What, exactly, are you getting out of this? Is unreasonably placing the blame on a single developer your way of getting your rocks off?
Are we reading the same information? There is not one thing I've said that is not in the linked post, or any of the previous posts regarding this topic.
You may want to believe and be sympathetic toward Apollo - fine.
That doesn't change the circumstances nor realities. Apollo screwed up, and is now throwing in the towel. It's really hard to be sympathetic towards a business operator that's made a series of bad choices and now is playing the victim card and shutting down.
You have constantly pushed a reframed timeline that isn’t actually indicative of reality. You have been told multiple times why. You have ignored multiple different things that Reddit has done in an effort to shift the blame entirely onto the Apollo dev.
You’re the only one who is finding it hard, and your constant push to shift the blame off of a massive corporation and onto a developer is frankly weird.
Re-evaluate your life choices if you truly believe this, but it’s clear you are the extreme minority here.
And he was willing to pay for access. His argument is that the price far exceeds their cost and, with 30 days notice, that's unreasonable.
I take him at his word that he was willing to pay a reasonable amount.
Again, Reddit has the right to run their business however they wish. Not arguing that it should be free.
But like.. He asked if they had any plans to change it. And they said no. I can't imagine the hoop you're expecting him to jump through - get a seat on their board covertly?
He addresses that in the post. He only has 30 days to accommodate the price increase. What is he supposed to do about his current clients that already paid for the year? Take a huge financial loss until his updated pricing catches up? He asked for more time, they said no.
> Apollo is shutting down because the founder thinks they'll incur about $2.50 per month of costs per user, and apparently doesn't believe enough people will be willing to pay $5 monthly to keep Apollo running.
> So, this Reddit Premium (billed at $5.99 monthly) either has few-to-no paid users, or Apollo's founder isn't even trying to sustain his business.
If you read the post, it's not just about the willingness of users to pay. It's also about the existing obligations (prepaid subscriptions), the timeline of the changes, and the amount of work that would be required on his end to adapt to the new changes within the next three weeks.
None of that would be an issue with the proposed solution of Reddit charging the users directly.
He has to flush the existing subscriptions no matter what. It's done. He has said he can afford it.
He could fire up a new system with appropriate pricing as soon as he can manage. All customers, if they want to come back, are then forced into the new system at new pricing levels. Maybe this takes a month or two or three. He's not losing money in the mean time and can re-open at something resembling a profitable stance when he can do so.
Yes, it sucks. But there's a path here if he wants to go for it. I don't blame him for throwing in the towel. He's tired of getting yanked around. I would be very hesitant to keep throwing good time(money) after bad.
As a person who has been using reddit very regularly for about the last ten years...my bet is that Reddit Premium has few to no paid users.
As someone who spends way too much time on reddit and would be their prime target audience: i have no idea why I'd sign up for reddit premium. Not a single feature i care about.
Reddit premium subscriber here — I use it because it hides ads, I get a lot of value from Reddit (and want to make that sustainable, if possible), and Premium gives me stickers I can award to comments occasionally in addition to upvotes.
Thats how I felt. But this news tears it. Just cancelled my yearly sub.
I didn't even know Reddit Premium existed until this debacle started. I had assumed all their revenue came from ads and people buying awards.
I've been a premium member since the beginning because I believe in paying for access, but I just cancelled it.
As a person who's been paying for Apollo for a while and intended to continue, once it goes down, I will simply just stop using reddit.
I may consider 6$ per month if the money goes to app maintainer, content creators, moderators and good commentators. But 3$ to Reddit for providing an api, a few bytes db space is simply too much.
I know people keep floating this idea of paying for reddit, and that's somewhat hilarious to me.
There is no chance I'm paying for a "service" where power-mods will ban you for disagreeing with their radical politics, where most of the subreddits are actively taken over by similar power mods who push their radical ideologies, and where any attempts to evade this stuff and simply use the website can get you permanently banned from the service.
Imagine spotify, but if you listen to the wrong songs, you get banned from other random artists, and if you try to work around this you just get banned outright from spotify.
No thanks.
Sibling comment already addresses it. But to add, I’d happily pay and I want to pay $5 or more to Reddit. But not everyone is like that. Reddit cornered third party apps into a single subscription model with very little time to adapt. I think Apollo could have accommodated these changes over 6 months. Reddit could have also added an ad based tier. Instead they forced a huge price hike with less than a month to react to it.
He can't make the transition on that short a notice. Lots of people were paying $10/yr.
> Apollo's founder isn't even trying to sustain his business.
Good call out. It's like the business equivalent of:
You changed the rules of the game because you didn't like how I played. So I'm not even going to bother playing with the new rules. I retire.
Can you blame him?
The rules of the game changed so severely that playing the game isn't just disagreeable, it's impossible.
What would you have done instead?
> What would you have done instead?
Charge $5 monthly and refund the annual fee for those who want it (which is already being done it seems, regardless of Apollo's future).
Apollo has options. They're just choosing to shutdown. That's the founder's prerogative, of course, but it is totally unnecessary.
Look at the support in this thread alone - Apollo has tons of people willing to throw money at them.
Exactly
Aren't they effectively just offloading this whole question onto the apps? For the sake of argument, let's say what they are charging for the API is about 80% per-user of what they make for users who use the official app (and therefore see ads). I have no idea what the actual numbers are, this is just theoretical.
In that case, app developers have several options:
* start showing users ads, and use that to pay both themselves and Reddit
* start charging a monthly fee for the app, and use that to pay both themselves and Reddit
* some combination of these two (e.g. pay a subscription for ad-free use)
Sure, Reddit could make this easier for app developers, but isn't it all basically the same thing at the end of the day? Reddit wants (or needs? I have no idea what their financials look like) to make a certain amount of money per-user or per page view. Apps take home ~100% of their profits currently, and make Reddit ~nothing. So Reddit is pricing in a profit rate into API access.
I mean, just to look at Apollo, they have 166K ratings on the Apple App Store, and surely far more users than that. Reddit wants $20M a year from them. That's high, maybe too high, but how does it compare to the value of (say) a million users a year on the official Reddit app? If Apollo switched to a subscription model on which they charged $1 a month to users, would they be able to pay Reddit's API fees? (Assuming those API fees would drop by at least 50% after non-paying users quit using Apollo.)
Nearly every element of your comment is blatantly wrong, some directly addressed by the post this comment thread is discussing.
- Reddit is charging the equivalent of 20x its published revenue per user for the API.
- The new API agreements ban the display of any advertising by API users. (Apollo did not show ads, but other third-party clients did, and Reddit claims the low quality of ads was harming Reddit by association.)
- Charging $5/month would be break-even given the API pricing, and only for new customers. Apollo would still have to serve earlier subscribers at a huge loss. API fees would certainly not “drop by 50%” — the vast majority of people subscribing to Apollo are power users, so the average API usage per customer would _increase_.
I say pretty clearly that I'm talking about purely theoretical numbers. The underlying fact is that the status quo is probably unsustainable for Reddit. It's hard to be "blatantly wrong" about a series of hypotheticals, IMO.
There's a lot of strange stuff happening in your comment. On the one hand, let's take for granted that Reddit is charging 20x its revenue per average user for the API. But that's just the average user; as you yourself point out "the vast majority of people subscribing to Apollo are power users". Surely they are worth much more to Reddit than the average, extremely casual user?
The underlying problem explained in the post is that the author pre-sold access to Reddit through an app to users, while this access was actually conditioned on the continuing availability of access to the Reddit API. No doubt this does put the author in an uncomfortable position! Given that the current plan is to shut down the app anyway, surely cancelling active subscriptions should also be on the table? Subscribers are going to lose access to Reddit through Apollo either way! So realistically, what we're talking about here is whether $5/month is a reasonable price point for power users. My answer is... maybe?
I think my instinct is to say that this is all ultimately the place where negotiations are supposed to happen. Reddit needs to go from making zero dollars off the API to making something. Is what they want to charge too high? Probably so. But a lot of people are acting as if any charge at all is untenable.
> But a lot of people are acting as if any charge at all is untenable.
Is that the case? Every reaction I have seen has been to the magnitude of the price, which is much, much, much more than what Reddit makes off of users
> I have no idea what the actual numbers are, this is just theoretical.
The issue is that the actual numbers are closer to 2,000%, not 80%. [0]
[0]: https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_ca...
The comment you are responding to is talking about revenue, not costs. Very different.
Read before correcting, I am also talking about revenue.
Isn't that why Apollo said they'd sell the company for $10M to Reddit if they wanted to take it over? If it costs Reddit $20M/year, surely they could make more than $10M/year if they took it over themselves.
There's a step before this. They're losing a lot of money because the choices they made to take investment to earn more money. They could've gone the route of wikipedia. They could've stayed extremely lean. They took $1.3 BILLION in funding, minimum. They have 500-1000 employees.
Its greed that they got here. They made choices, and then as a consequence of those choices they made choices that are significantly reducing the value they provide to their users. Its enshittification, its killing the golden goose, its destroying a public good for the benefit of investors who don't care about anything other than making a return.
The worst part is the investors don't care about anything other than making the numbers look good in the short term so they can dump their investment onto other investors. Its like all of corporate america decided to watch The Wire and go "Oh see how they're pumping up the numbers to make them look good for the mayor, but not actually solving crime? THAT should be our business plan!". Providing value is a side effect of making money, on the false equivalence that making money means you're providing value, so therefore making more money means you're providing more value.
Yeah. The wikipedia approach to an online platform seems ideal.
Wikipedia is pretty fantastic. Signal is pretty great. I'm pretty happy with NPR. Archive.org makes me happy.
Appeal to people with money (the professional class) and then beg.
I feel like the next great social media platform will result from a rich person disillusioned by reddit (a Bryan Acton type) creating a platform resistant to "next quarters profit"-ism.
Although your examples are very centralized projects, your thoughts about the next social media platform is the desired way to go.
Because I'm not so sure that it's true. Reddit isn't massively profitable but it also doesn't have to lose a ton of money. IIRC they were able to run a much tighter ship and operate off of just Reddit Gold and ads for at least a decade before they started this recent hypergrowth phase
13 years ago, when I worked part time for them, it was about 5 people, with support being provided by Condé Nast peeps. This was right during the middle of the Digg v4 exodus to reddit. I remember when reddit got its billionth pageview month
I wonder how much of costs went up due to hosting their own images and videos.
A text website is easy to run.
They probably spent more money on staffing rewriting into a shitty React SPA and then trying to address its dire performance.
I wonder if Reddit ever considered and calculated options like showing ads, selling reddit gold and merchandise through partner apps. Maybe it could be coined into win-win-win but ended as it is.
The fees aren't small, they also forbid 3rd party apps to show their own ads and will be blocking NSFW subreddits from API (none of those things apply to their mobile app).
So ultimately they want 3rd party to use subscription model to ultimately get worse experience.
Because you can't IPO for a zillion dollars and leave suckers holding the bag that way
because they're going public, saying "we're broke, please invest" isn't going to work for them — at this point everything they do is to more or less prop up the value until everyone can cash out
> I wonder if they’ll see employees quit over this.
What is the employee culture like it Reddit?
I’ve never gotten the impression that people working at Reddit better care all that much about the community. It’s just not something that ever came across from the site… rather, I’ve suspected just the opposite.
Statements by some admin’s make me wonder if they’ve EVER dealt with a community before … and their decisions based on personal relationships, rather than anything else.
I've known a couple of people who previously worked at Reddit and I can't imagine they'd quit over something like this. I think most employees don't feel any personal responsibility or sense of control for the situation and are happy to get paid a comfortable salary.
Considering some of the bad hiring decisions they have made in the past, I'm guessing not that great.
I don’t know of many such situations but this one was odd:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/24/22348255/reddit-moderator...
I don’t really understand how they could make that hire or why they would have thought that person was a good choice…
> Christian says in the post the refunds will cost him personally about $250,000. Does he have a claim against Reddit for that money I wonder?
Why would they?
In fact, lots of people were already frustrated with the handling of "lifetime access" while having ads being pushed.
A business, Apollo, made an offer (lifetime access) to gain marketshare. It worked as Apollo is the defacto Reddit App for iOS. Now they cannot hold true to their offer, so they're forced to refund it. This is the price of the bargain Apollo made.
I feel terrible for Christian on an individual level. He must be going through hell. However, there is a business being run by Apollo and it needs to be held to it's commitments.
> Why would they?
> A business, Apollo, made an offer (lifetime access) to gain marketshare. It worked as Apollo is the defacto Reddit App for iOS. Now they cannot hold true to their offer, so they're forced to refund it. This is the price of the bargain Apollo made.
That's practically the definition of tortious interference.
https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/liability-and-insuranc...
"The most common form of [tortious interference], however, occurs when an individual forces or induces someone to break a contract they have with a third party. This can happen in many ways: someone could offer below market prices to induce a breach, they could blackmail or threaten someone into violating a contract, or they could make it impossible for the other person to perform and receive the benefits of that contract - by refusing to transport goods, for instance."
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel
"By way of illustration:
If a landlord promises the tenant that he will not exercise his right to terminate a lease, and relying upon that promise the tenant spends money improving the premises, the doctrine of promissory estoppel may prevent the landlord from exercising a right to terminate, even though his promise might not otherwise have been legally binding as a contract. The landlord is precluded from asserting a specific right."
Sorry, I don't see how that's a textbook case of what you've cited.
OK. Do you have a specific aspect of the test that you don't believe has been satisfied here, or just don't believe in the general concept?
Generally speaking the law doesn't care whether or not you personally think it applies, merely that you've broken it.
I'm not trying to challenge you. I'm just not familiar enough with this area of the law to infer the point you're trying to make.
I believe his point is that since the creator of Apollo was in frequent conversations with Reddit, who apparently told him they weren’t planning big changes to the API anytime soon, that then making it impossible for him to deliver the app by instead charging an exorbitant amount (very shortly after telling him there wouldn’t be changes), then that would qualify as forcing him to break the contract with his users. On the other hand, you could argue that since the promise was “lifetime,” this put to much up in the air (vs. like 5 years or something). On the other other hand, you could argue that there is an implied possibility that the app could shut down, given that Reddit itself could for example close down and make it impossible to deliver, which I think courts would plausibly accept as a sufficient delivery of services. Anyways, to the original point, I’m not sure what a court would find, but hopefully now at least the comparison he’s drawing is clear.
The act that is alleged to be tortious interference has to be improper for it to actually potentially be tortious interference (see farther down on the page you quoted).
There's nothing obviously improper about a site replacing a free API with a paid API even if it causes problems for those who relied on the API being free.
No, it's not the definition of tortious interference.
Reddit did not force or induce Apollo to break a contract with its own customers. Apollo unilaterally chose to do that because it could not afford continued access to Reddit's APIs, which Reddit was not under a legal obligation to continue providing at historical rates that Apollo had based its entire product around, despite long-standing advice not to do so.
> Reddit did not force or induce Apollo to break a contract with its own customers. Apollo unilaterally chose to do that because it could not afford continued access to Reddit's APIs,
"I didn't refuse to transport your goods, I just said it would cost a billion dollars per pound to do it and you couldn't afford it" is not the gotcha that you think it is. The law is technical but it's enforced by humans.
It's straightforward: Apollo and Reddit have a longstanding business relationship, via these APIs that Reddit has provided for a long time at zero cost. Reddit generally no longer wants third parties to use the API, so they are increasing the price to a level that they know will cause everyone to balk (other third-party clients are closing up too) so that they can direct that traffic to their own native client and first-party sites, while knowing that Apollo has these long-standing business relationships of their own that are built on this relationship with Reddit.
In short, reddit is deliberately taking action to sabotage and cause economic harm to a business partner by changing aspects of the relationship that make it impossible for the partner to fulfill their contracts to third parties, so that Reddit can direct that business to themselves instead.
That is an improper taking under tortious interference, and the rest of the tests (intent actual economic loss - not just refunds but future income, etc) are trivially satisfied here.
I know people are libertarians here but the right to swing your fist ends at someone else's face, and legally speaking if you take actions that you know will result in a business partner being forced to sustain economic losses due to your improper breaking of your business relationship with them, you are generally liable for that damage you cause to the partner. That is the basic concept of tortious interference, you're paying for the damage you caused to your business partner. Swing your fist and hit someone's face and you get to pay for the surgery.
(IANAL and Reddit's lawyers would obviously say their conduct is proper, but, generally this is the type of situation where people can unexpectedly get themselves into legitimate legal trouble based on actions they think are perfectly legitimate. And generally they may have been legitimate if you didn't have this prior relationship, that changes things! It's different to not build an API at all, vs having the API be free and have third parties start selling clients and then to stop doing the API.)
(As a sibling comment notes, estoppel is another - if you promise something to someone, even a verbal promise, and they take a financially detrimental action on the expectation that you will follow through on your side of the promise and you don't, then you are generally liable for the financial harm you have caused them too. Libertarianism doesn't mean you can wiggle out of contracts, even verbal ones.)
> business partner
This is the part that you seem to be confusing.
Apollo and Reddit do not appear to be business partners. Nor does Apollo seem to have any contractual agreement with Reddit, outside of the API usage agreement.
The API terms were lasted updated May 25, 2016. These include this language:
> a. Fees. Reddit reserves the right to charge fees for future use or access to the Reddit APIs, rates to be determined in Reddit’s sole discretion.
I assume these are the terms that Apollo are bound to. If that's the case, I don't see how you can support your claim. Reddit is using it's contractual right.
> Apollo and Reddit do not appear to be business partners. Nor does Apollo seem to have any contractual agreement with Reddit, outside of the API usage agreement.
Sorry, I am confused what you are arguing here. If you think a usage agreement is binding they are certainly business partners. They may still be business partners or generally covered by tortious interference even if they do not have an explicit contract either.
This is quite a wide legal net by design - it is a "swing your fist and hit someone and their lawyers may have something to say about it" area of law, of course it's a wide net. You really don't even have to have an explicit contract.
> If you think a usage agreement is binding they are certainly business partners.
Precisely. If the API agreement wasn't binding, why would it bother saying Reddit reserve the right to vary the fees?
I'm not a libertarian, I'm a lawyer, and I'm looking at this from the legal perspective.
Reddit's Data API TOS has always allowed it the right to start charging for access. That it chose not to do so until recently was its prerogative. That it chooses to do so now, is also it's prerogative.
This is not a unfair taking, since Reddit isn't taking anything from Christian, they are simply no longer freely providing something.
This is not an issue of estoppel, since Reddit never promised to make their API free forever. And Reddit gave him due notice, as required by their TOS, of changes that would take effect...several months after notice was given of the changes...
This is not tortious inteference, since Apollo could have continued to provide Reddit services to their customers, though this might have required Christian to change his business model.
This is not slander, since on the call Christian clearly suggests to Reddit to give him $10 million and he'll go away and not make a fuss about things.
It's irrelevant that they have a "prior relationship" since that means nothing in this context, since Christian did not have a binding contractual relationship that entitled Christian to perpetual free access to the Reddit Data API.
> This is not tortious inteference, since Apollo could have continued to provide Reddit services to their customers, though this might have required Christian to change his business model.
So, this is the one thing I'm not sure I entirely agree with. While it's true that Apollo could have changed its business model, they only had 30 days to migrate users to a new business model, including some users that are on a yearly model.
Furthermore, Reddit had previously stated to Christian that the timeline was flexible, and that they'd be open to extending it. They then walked back on that promise, leaving Apollo scrambling to move all their existing users to the new model in very limited time. And that's after telling christian multiple time earlier in the year that no change to the pricing policy was being considered for at least the year to come.
There's essentially no solution for Christian here. They don't have the money to pay for the usage of their existing 50k yearly that won't migrate for up to 12 months.
While I'm not a lawyer, I'd be very surprised if a case couldn't be made with this behavior.
Not that it'd ever go to court anyways - it'd be a huge time and money sink with unclear outcomes. Better to focus on the next steps.
While I'm not a lawyer, I'd be very surprised if a case couldn't be made with this behavior.
I am a lawyer. I can say, with 100% certainty, that this case would never make it to trial. It's unlikely that Christian would even make it to discovery, as based on the facts stated, by Christian himself, even viewed in the light most favorable to Christian, he does not have any colorable legal claims.
You should read the article. Christian recorded calls during which said that no increase was under consideration and that any change was "at least a year away".
I did read the article. And I listened to the recording. As a businessperson, Christian should know that the salespersons statements were not a binding promise, since there was no mutual consideration and those statements were not reflected in the actual written agreement he would have signed.
As I said, I'm looking at this from the legal perspective, not the emotional perspective.
> A business, Apollo, made an offer (lifetime access) to gain marketshare. It worked as Apollo is the defacto Reddit App for iOS. Now they cannot hold true to their offer, so they're forced to refund it. This is the price of the bargain Apollo made.
Did I miss something? I downloaded and used Apollo for free for a time, then later bought Pro for like $5 a couple years back. There is/was a subscription tier, Ultra, which for a time had a lifetime option, but it was never a particularly necessary expense and I have always enjoyed Apollo without it.
The "Pro" tier was a one-off payment at one point in time, but at some point this switched to a monthly subscription. Previous owners were grandfathered in.
I don't think lifetime access is getting refunded since that was just a one time unlock. He says the $250,000 cost is to refund all "subscriptions".
How does Apple's refunds work?
I'm surprised more people don't do one-time purchases to avoid these subscription refund stories I keep hearing.
> How does Apple's refunds work?
I don't know how monthly subscriptions work, but yearly subscription refunds are pro-rated.
> I'm surprised more people don't do one-time purchases to avoid these subscription refund stories I keep hearing
I'm not, at least not for apps like this that need consistent revenue to support regular maintenance and/or server costs in an era where customers balk when an app costs more than a few dollars. To achieve this you end up balancing whether or not to serve ads, hope you can just grow enough new users forever, charge for major updates, charge a subscription, or beg for tips. While there are some exceptions, you can probably tell that ads or subscriptions are generally winning this nowadays.
One-time purchases are a tricky thing, since you've realisitcally now precluded ever charging for a major update. This is great for them, and might be for you if you've gotten your math right, but if you haven't (or it changes) then you're stuck. And, for better or for worse, they tend to be the loudest users.
Marco Arment talks about this balance in general on an episode of the Accidental Tech Podcast a couple weeks ago when discussing how Casey (another host) should price an app he's writing. For context if folks aren't aware, Marco created Overcast, which is a popular 3rd party iOS podcast app. The discussion spans a couple episodes but I the post-show of [Episode 535](https://atp.fm/535) captures the gist.
> Why would they?
I do kinda wonder. IANAL, but based on these comments I imagine there could be a case?
> Reddit: "So I would expect no change, certainly not in the short to medium term. And we're talking like order of years." > "There's not gonna be any change on it. There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023.
At least for the yearly subscriptions
I generally agree with this type of analysis regarding for-profit ventures, but as a lifetime purchaser, I’m not going to try to get a refund here. I got my money’s worth out of Apollo, and Christian is handling this like a steely-eyed capitalist. He’s not asking the community to bail him out from his business decisions or Reddit taking things in a different direction, and I respect that a lot.
Very different tone from when the Twitter client developers were complaining that no one could possibly have foreseen a situation where they couldn’t deliver on services they’d happily taken money for upfront.
The lifetime subscription doesn’t need a refund, it lasted the lifetime of the app, and it wasn’t just a bait and switch either.
Did people really sell services that necessarily depended on a third party's services without some contractual safeguard in their terms in case the third party changed how they operate? There's always a risk in building your offering on top of someone else's and plenty of attempts to do that in that past didn't work out so surely any lawyer who works in this field should have seen that one coming?
Edit: This was an honest question in response to the parent comment about Twitter clients. What's with the downvotes?
Yes, they did. And yes, like you, it should have been obvious to everyone involved.
Yet for some reason, the Twitter client devs (who had happily shifted all their users to a subscription-only model) all of a sudden realized that they had sold a bunch of one year subs they had sold were going to be useless as soon as Twitter turned off the API and, more pertinent to their pocketbooks, all those customers would be entitled to request and receive a refund through the App Store for their now non-functional app. The devs started whining to their customers about being “small businesses” and having the food snatched out of their families’ mouths and why would anyone be so cruel as to seek a refund?
Christian is showing a hell of a lot more integrity and toughness than the Twitter client authors.
Reddit is stupid, and the whole situation is bad, but shouldn't the man behind the biggest app for the biggest forum in the world, in the lucrative ios ecosystem have made himself wealthy enough so that 250k is close to nothing?
Or am i misunderstanding how much money there is in this space?
If he isn't "10+ million"-wealthy that's extremely disappointing for all solo devs out there in my eyes.
I think you may be overestimating how much money there is in this space. People don't want to pay for things if they can avoid it. The biggest app for the biggest forum in the world apparently had 50k paying users. The author was complaining about the cost of icons, which to me suggests that he is not terribly wealthy.
But there's a lot about this story that I don't understand:
* How can the Apollo guy be perceived as "threatening" Reddit? He has no leverage.
* Why does he suggest that they buy his app for $10m, when they can just terminate his API access at a cost of $0 - "I have altered the deal; pray that I do not alter it any further"
> Why does he suggest that they buy his app for $10m, when they can just terminate his API access at a cost of $0
Because according to Reddit, the problem with Apollo is the opportunity cost of Reddit not being able to monetize its users.
Acquiring Apollo is user acquisition. Destroying the app does not necessarily mean that all those users will now start using Reddit's official app and become monetizable, they might just quit Reddit entirely. By acquiring Apollo Reddit could monetize those users through Apollo instead of the official Reddit app.
> By acquiring Apollo Reddit could monetize those users through Apollo instead of the official Reddit app.
After what Reddit did to Alien Blue I don't know how many Apollo users would be too keen on playing that game again. I personally have no confidence that a Reddit owned Apollo would retain what makes the current app great.
It has 50k users paying yearly. There's supposedly more users paying monthly, and yet more that got the "lifetime" deal. I'm part of the later category.
250k is just the cost of refund of subscriptions. There is further costs related to new business model and all the risk associated with a continued work relationship with a partner that just done you dirty. He can pay the refund, he understands it as not worth it and decided to not delay the inevitable and close shop. The thought is that it will not be profitable and any service offered after 30 days will only benefit reddit at his expense. It's the right call.
Christian (the maker of Apollo) is from Norway, and if the recordings was done in Norway it’s legal as far as I know.
Even a specific point in the law that specify that you can record audio without informing about it, as long as you are part of the conversation yourself.
§205 : https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2005-05-20-28/KAPITTEL_2-...
EDIT: See now that he was in Canada when it was recorded, and they have the same kind of laws.
Isn't he a citizen and current resident of Canada?
Yep and it's completely legal here too as long as one participant knows and is fine with it being recorded (him in this instance).
It might be legal from Canada's perspective, but that doesn't necessarily mean legal action couldn't be taken in the US. Is there something specific to the law on recording phone calls that makes this not a problem?
Illegal wiretapping is a crime, not a civil tort.
You can sue anyone for anything anywhere, but I cannot imagine the Canadian police being interested in a citizen doing something lawful in Canada if the California (or wherever) cops call to complain be broke a Californian law.
And I can even less imagine a civil action demanding damages or court actions in Canada for doing something legal there. It would be like a Saudi company suing a US driving school that teaches women.
I don't think there's a there there as far as liability or worry. IANAL, of course.
Reddit is unlikely to sue Christian for recording these calls, it would be an extension of what is already a PR nightmare for them.
How do you launch a lawsuit in your own country against a person that lives, works, and operates in and is a citizen of another country? That would be truly bizarre.
>yes, turns out we are the bad guys who have been continually lying and manipulating the situation for our benefit
This is *literally* what is expected of someone running a company with intitutional investors - anything other than this and investors are not interested.
What more proof do we need that there is nothing more important to a small group of humans that own all the money, than them getting more money?
Reddit has been mired in controversy since day one. It is also regularly touted on HN as THE ONLY trustworthy place on the web to find, for example, honest product reviews; where Google, Amazon, Yelp, Wirecutter etc are hopelessly corrupted. I'm not buying that a brief fit of bad PR will hurt them; and in the meantime Reddit thinks there's 20m of revenue on the table they will recapture when the app goes away.
Reddit Sync as well - https://old.reddit.com/r/redditsync/comments/144jp3w/sync_wi...
This has been my Reddit app for ages. I've paid for the Pro version a long time ago. Sad to this go.
I'm not throwing in the towel like most people are, but I will just relegate myself to viewing it only in a desktop browser. We'll see how long old.reddit.com lasts after this
I am astounded that Steve Huffman would do this. There was the incident ~7 years ago where he silently edited a post that criticized him, but I thought he would have learned from that, and this is so much worse.
Why would he have learned from something that didn't punish him in the slightest? That edit, ellen pao, that time they tried to hire someone who I think was a known pedophile or something... None of it has stopped reddit from bringing cash and clout to the people in charge, and none of it has prevented them from getting to the point where they will most likely walk away after the IPO with plenty of millions of dollars each.
This is the inevitable outcome of a human who has never been told no or punished for their misdeeds. This is what it looks like for a spoiled child to run a company.
We have a lot of that lately.
Other social media companies seem far less ethical to me. Facebook still has tons of employees even though they treat users much worse than reddit. In the end reddit is a business that exists to make money. They were never going to let third party apps that undercut ad revenue exist forever.
It's a weird balance right?
You'd think letting 3rd party developed apps for your platform frees up resources you would otherwise put in to develop your own app.
Individuals that use third party apps are probably power users so they're the one's submitting content and writing good comments. The very backbone to what brings people to the platform.
With quality of submissions and comments going down then presumably the number of actual visiters to the site will also go down. Thus lowering potential revenue.
The problem is their revenue per user is garbage compared to other sites. Facebook is sitting at $70 per user/year. More users who don't bring revenue doesn't actually help the company. I think they should focus more on getting their ad platform to make a reasonable CPM, but I assume they've been trying and for whatever reason just can't make it happen. Maybe forcing users onto the official app is how they plan to boost the ad numbers?
The quality of Reddit comments has never been particularly high. Sure there are quality posts, but like other social media most posts are essentially spam and those that aren’t inaccurate/hyperbolic or just memes.
Once upon a time you could go to Reddit and skip the link because the top comment both summarized the article and gave poignant relevant commentary. Often times from someone that had professional knowledge in that field.
>I bet some subreddits will go permanently private or delete themselves over this.
Subreddits are run by volunteer moderators and are entirely at the whim of reddit. If any substantial subreddit tried to shut down or go dark permanently reddit would just remove the moderators responsible.
... or the community would spin up a new one with a slightly different name and a new set of moderators if the demand is there.
There are lots of permanently dark/private subreddits out there that have been "lost" to some dispute or another.
> Is spez (Steve Huffman, CEO and cofounder) going to lose his job over this?
Oh please. Let's be honest, this is not financially going to hurt the company.
But it has generated enough bad PR and user bleeding to significantly push competitors, which eventually will financially hurt Reddit - or possibly even kill it.
An old-school investor would be fuming right now, but VCs only care about IPOs and they probably blessed this strategy already.
"Old school investors" haven't mattered since the Dotcom boom showed you can just make money by making up a narrative, selling, and walking away.
That's been the economy in the US for two decades now.
It's a large and protracted public backlash and another example of the CEO being incompetent and dishonest right before an IPO.
It would definitely impact my view of the company as an investor.
Sync too; the true gold standard of Reddit apps.
See this response reddit posted https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/143sho8/admins_c...
Seems the threat of mods to shut down subs holds some weight after all, and they are backtracking on some things. Most third party apps will still not work, but they are supposedly going to improve mod tools in the app, and there will be plenty of API exceptions for mod bots, non-commercial apps and accessibility focused apps.
This seems a lot more reasonable, although the API pricing is still bonkers.
They still repeat the “Apollo threatened us” lie, even though Christian’s recordings prove that they apologised and accepted that misunderstanding.
Their willingness to exempt screen reader / accessibility capable or accessibility focused third party apps from API pricing is good faith IMO.
So the NSFW changes seem to be prompted by regulatory threats & Reddit getting the approaches covered, & this also seems to confirm that the API shutdown for many third party apps is because the API was a golden goose for those developers, laying golden eggs - both in user content & in giving those app developers the opportunity to run their own adverts alongside reddit content.
>#1 Reddit Android app "Reddit is Fun"
Guess no more bathroom reddit for me. 4chan still works.
An appropriate place to read 4chan, I suppose.
Why do you think they call it shit posting?
It is not surprising to me that a product intended for social drama (news) aggregation has basically been steeped in drama its whole life.
Like, I can't remember a time that there _hasn't_ been some sort of drama going on behind the scenes at Reddit. Really seems like one of the last places I would want to work, that's for sure.
> I wonder if they’ll see employees quit over this.
I'm sure a few will but, I can't name any time in the last 20 years when a tech company did something bad that enough employees quit over it for it to be notable. For 95% of tech workers, it's just a job and pays money. And pays well.
Well, Zynga was an example.
https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/zynga-to-employees-give...
If employees are getting paid salary, getting health insurance, getting retirement contributions, they’re by-and-large not going to quit
> EDIT 2: Is spez (Steve Huffman, CEO and cofounder) going to lose his job over this?
Why would he lose his job? Realistically, it's a smart business move to monetise their users. It's Reddit, them being pissy about having to pay is part of the course. There is a reason they're the lowest valued social media users.
>EDIT 3: Christian says in the post the refunds will cost him personally about $250,000. Does he have a claim against Reddit for that money I wonder? I'm sure lawyers are looking closely at the agreements right now.
What would he have a claim for? He wasn't paying for the API. He could pay for the API and continue to operate. You can't sue someone because they stopped letting you use their services for free. You sure can't sue a business for asking your for-profit company to pay expenses.
Realistically, these app users would have made tens if not hundreds of thousands a month if they just added subscription model to their app and only had paying customers. These apps could still exist and be extremely profitable for a one-man apps.
Simple maths $5 a month subscription $2.50 to reddit $1.50 to apple and $1 to the app developer. Say 10% of their users convert which seems very reasonable considering the reception a price increase to $6.99 seem to get on the Apollo subreddit. That would have been $100,000 a month profit. But instead, they shut it down.
I mean, Tortious interference can apply when a service which could reasonably have been expected to charge reasonable amounts suddenly increases their prices for no reason, if it prevents a third party from being able to fulfill a contract. I have no idea if one of this is one of those cases though, I wouldn't expect so but IANAL.
Reddit lawyers would show other social networks such as Twitter and Imgur offical pricing charging more. That would make it a reasonable amount. And there is a reason, they're unprofitable. It really annoys me that people say the price is unreasonable when it's so low that a $5 a month subscription covers it and makes profit.
> Just spitballing here but could an employee bring a shareholder lawsuit for negatively impacting financial outlook or destroying brand value?
Not against a private company, no. Reddit is still owned by Conde-Nast, I believe. What to do with it is up to them.
Also in general *employees* don't bring shareholder lawsuits. Even if you own significant stock, getting fired for suing your boss is usually a losing proposition.
>I bet some subreddits will go permanently private or delete themselves over this.
It's my understanding that Apollo users make up a fraction of a percent of active users. Reddit almost certainly doesn't care. Fact is they've taken in over a billion in funding and aren't really returning a profit, charging for API access starts moving them in the right direction though.
What refunds will he need to provide?
I paid for the app years ago - it was $5 or so and I don't expect to get anything back. That's just how the game works.
I know he also had some sort of monthly subscription - it seemed quite absurd for whatever additional trivial features it provided, but then again there apparently was some sort of Apollo fanboy group who got a lot of excitement out of new app logos, which seemed to be the main updates in the last few years, even at the expense of serious bugs that lingered for months.
I'd assume those subscriptions would just stop being charged going forward. So again, who is getting $250k in refunds?
Furthermore, if he is refunding that much money, I wonder what kind of revenue and profits he was pulling in? I had kind of assumed he was making a very good living (deservedly - it was a good app) - maybe a few hundred thousand dollars a year, but now I'm wondering if he was making a order of magnitude more than that...
You can buy a year of Apollo Ultra in advance and 50,000 people have done just that.
I bet he was making enough that he didn't need another job but not significantly more than that.
Most users won’t opt for a refund from Apollo. People are on his side.
I would not ask for refund. This app is a jewel on iOS, extremely well polished and gave me hours and hours and hours of enjoyment.
The smart move for the Apollo devs might be to create a back end of their own. There's no reason why their app needs to work only with Reddit, is there? Quite a few users would migrate to a new forum just to keep using the app.
He addresses this partway down the post:
> Will you build a competitor? Move to one of the existing alternatives?
> I've received so many messages of kind people offering to work with me to build a competitor to Reddit, and while I'm very flattered, that's not something I'm interested in doing. I'm a product guy, I like building fun apps for people to use, and I'm just not personally interested in something more managerial.
> These last several months have also been incredibly exhausting and mentally draining, I don't have it in me to engage in something so enormous.
seems reasonable.
He addressed that in the post, saying he basically doesn't have the energy for it. Which is understandable.
I really don't see why Reddit doesn't just purchase the app.
> I really don't see why Reddit doesn't just purchase the app.
They've all but stated openly that their goal is to kill Apollo in its current form. Why pay millions to do that when they can accomplish it for free?
Apple automatically grants refunds unless you opt out. Tweetbot did a big push trying to get people to opt out of the refund.
I uninstalled Tweetbot prior to any push, forgot about it and then got a refund like a month or two later. Whoops.
Realistically this is the right time for the large subreddits to move onto a different platform. The moderators and the community ultimately have the power here, not Reddit. And in the sense that those communities are just forums, good old PHPbb could be the answer.
> Realistically this is the right time for the large subreddits to move onto a different platform.
Like Apollo. He could build a backend himself.
I was using RiF myself. Reddit is unusable for me without a 3rd party up as their interface is a clusterfuck. I can't complain, I was spending too much time there anyway and it's easy to cut off now.
> Just look at how many big (millions and tens of millions of subscribers) subreddits are signed onto the blackout letter
Is there a running list of subs (over a certain high number of subscribers, to keep it focused) that aren't in the blackout list? That would be interesting to see. Wouldn't be too hard to implement, at least while the API is still free...
> could an employee bring a shareholder lawsuit for negatively impacting financial outlook
Tech employees are somewhat notorious for not enforcing their shareholder rights. Most companies, for example, ignore their books & records requirements under Delaware law, or force private sales to occur at terms favourable to management and the Board’s friends.
It all depends on the terms of the equity grant. You may get RSUs, but voting rights are retained by the founders or someone else.
> voting rights are retained by the founders or someone else
Voting rights are relatively irrelevant for minority holders. It's all the other rights, granted by contract and more importantly law, that tech employees can be generally regarded on to not exercise (or bullied into not exercising by management).
Subreddits can't be destroyed, only made private, and then requested by someone else.
They can definitely be nerfed. Go private and no one gets invited. They can also block any new content except if on a post approved list, which could be as few as the mods. Each in effect would kill a sub.
Nah. The mods would just be replaced if they tried anything like that.
Can you script a mass-delete after privating (via API, while you still can)?
For subs you are a member of sure.
What he said is definitely defamation, all other damages notwithstanding.
Just deleted my 11 year old account. End of an era.
Why even wait. Id shut it down on the 12th.
That’s a disaster
> Is spez (Steve Huffman, CEO and cofounder) going to lose his job over this?
He might be looking to quit, I figure. Taking care of unpopular stuff on the way out would make sense.
So the bad guys are not the ones making an alternative client that makes money off of Reddit while not displaying their ads? Oh, okay.
Those 3rd party apps are leeches that are playing surprised_pikachu.jpeg when the blood supply is cut.
The simple fact that this guy has to reimburse 250K of subscriptions shows the insane amount of money he made off of the back of Reddit.
That money is pennies to reddit. Apollo was around long before the official app and established a majority mobile userbase which you could argue helped build reddit into what it is today. I guarantee you it 100% made reddit more money than it made the developer of the app. Reddit is the bad guy for slandering him and gaslighting their users at every turn, yes.
Weird taken given that it was a resource provided for people to use that benefited Reddit to offer.
Are shipping companies leeches in your worldview?
Reddit literally only makes money of other people’s content. They contribute absolutely nothing themselves.
Hypocritical much?
> So the bad guys are not the ones making an alternative client that makes money off of Reddit while not displaying their ads? Oh, okay.
Correct.
What kind of obligation is Reddit under to allow Apollo to continue? They’ve made a decision they think (rightly or wrongly) is in the long-term interests of the company.
How long will Reddit survive if they don’t do this? I have no idea. But I do know the CEO has to deliver more than happy users.
They're not under any obligation legally - but they've been intentionally misleading at every step to try to make Apollo the bad guy
Putting aside why Reddit's behaviour is objectionable. Reddit did this in a way that will cost them money and harm both their reputation and quality.
Had they set out a reasonable timeline for the new prices, they would have had a new revenue stream. Instead they killed it and at the same time created an incentive for some of their most active users to leave.
Yes, but he also should listen to Ru Paul and not duck it up. Or maybe not digg it.
Folks - if you want Apollo to survive, go make it known you are willing to pay $5 a month for access.
I know it's popular to hate on Reddit right now - and for good reasons, but folks, Apollo made a business decision that was unsustainable and entirely dependent on the good will of another (untrustworthy) 3rd party company.
It seems foolish to just shut down out of spite. The support for Apollo seems very strong - how about you all put your money where your support is and support Apollo?
How can we claim Apollo was so critical and necessary and everyone loves it - yet nobody wants to pay for a high quality app? This doesn't seem possible.
Did you read the thread? It includes a section about increasing the cost and how it wouldn't really do much.
> Why not just increase the price of Apollo?
> One option many have suggested is to simply increase the price of Apollo to offset costs. The issue here is that Apollo has approximately 50,000 yearly subscribers at the moment. On average they paid $10/year many months ago, a price I chose based on operating costs I had at the time (server fees, icon design, having a part-time server engineer). Those users are owed service as they already prepaid for a year, but starting July 1st will (in the best case scenario) cost an additional $1/month each in Reddit fees. That's $50,000 in sudden monthly fee that will start incurring in 30 days.
> So you see, even if I increase the price for new subscribers, I still have those many users to contend with. If I wait until their subscription expires, slowly month after month there will be less of them. First month $50,000, second month maybe $45,000, then $40,000, etc. until everything has expired, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It would be cheaper to simply refund users.
> I hope you can recognize how that's an enormous amount of money to suddenly start incurring with 30 days notice. Even if I added 12,000 new subscribers at $5/month (an enormous feat given the short notice), after Apple's fees that would just be enough to break even.
> Going from a free API for 8 years to suddenly incurring massive costs is not something I can feasibly make work with only 30 days. That's a lot of users to migrate, plans to create, things to test, and to get through app review, and it's just not economically feasible. It's much cheaper for me to simply shut down.
Apollo made business decisions, that turned out to be very short sighted. Apollo sold access to someone else's system, for next to nothing, and now is caught having to pay for that access like any reasonable business would expect.
We can debate if the API fees are reasonable or not - but at the end of the day, Apollo chose a model that doesn't work unless Reddit continued to favor them and apps like them. Foolish, is one word that comes to mind.
Given the popularity of Apollo, and the public outcry over the news it will be shutting down - I see zero reason Apollo couldn't switch to a monthly billing model - even if it requires refunding old subscriptions which they are already going to do.
This is a self-made disaster for Apollo, a failure to be forward thinking and control risks.
The founder started Apollo as a university project - but somehow forgot to become a real business along the way it seems.
I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you.
Nobody really cares about your opinion on him or a monthly subscription; he explicitly said it's not going to happen and at the end of the day that's his decision to make, not yours.
He doesn't even need to give a reason for shutting down. It's his personal project to manage and he's the only one who's ever worked on it.
It's also clear you haven't read the article, because he explicitly calls out a bunch of criticisms you have of him directly.
> Isn't this your fault for building a service reliant on someone else?
> To a certain extent, yes. However, I was assured this year by Reddit not even that long ago that no changes were planned to be made to the API Apollo uses, and I've made decisions about how to monetize my business based on what Reddit has said.
> > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "So I would expect no change, certainly not in the short to medium term. And we're talking like order of years."
> Another portion of the call:
> > January 26, 2023 Reddit: "There's not gonna be any change on it. There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Me: "Fair enough." Reddit: "And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way."
> Your initial post in April sounded quite optimistic. Are you dumb?
> In hindsight, kinda yeah. Many of the other developers and folks I talked to were much less optimistic than I was, but I legitimately had great interactions with Reddit for many years prior to last week (they were kind, communicative, gave me heads up of changes), so when they said they were aiming to have pricing that would be fair and based in reality, I honestly believed them. That was foolish of me in hindsight, and maybe could have had a different outcome if I was more aggressive in the beginning. Sorry. /canadian
> (And to be clear, they did indeed say this. They used the word "substantive" and I wanted to make sure we had the same definition of something "having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable")
> > Reddit: "That's exactly right. And I think, thankfully, the word is exactly the right one. It's going to have a firm basis in reality. I also just looked it up. We're going to try to be as transparent as we can."
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Reading this with 15 years of corporate experience the developer was at best naive. In corporate speak Reddit is completely consistent in their actions and words. It's a crappy situation and I'm sure the developer is a great person and I agree Reddit did them dirty but also that's how these things work. You don't take dependencies on third parties without a lawyer and a contract.
> There's not gonna be any change on it.
Nobody can make this promise, those are just words to make you feel good.
> There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023.
Plans can be made quickly. Action can be taken without a plan. What is the guarantee on lead time?
> And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way.
Define improvement. Improved for who?
> It's going to have a firm basis in reality.
I have no doubt that Reddit based the API pricing on them making money on it. We can debate if they got it right.
> We're going to try to be as transparent as we can.
Try is a weasel word, this sentence is meaningless. Zero transparency can be provided and still meet the standard of being "as transparent as possible". "Try" here even gives them the opportunity to be less transparent than possible. The Glomar defense ("We can neither confirm nor deny") is "as transparent as possible" and actually meets a higher standard than Reddit promised here because the CIA didn't just "try", they successfully provided the most possible transparency (almost none).
I'm just going to leave this first sentence from my comment here; it very much applies to you as well.
> I'm not really sure what benefit you get out of harping on a developer you will likely never meet or interact with in a third party forum, but power to you.
Y'all need to find a better hobby. As per his own words, he also clearly realizes that in hindsight he should have been more pessimistic. But that's all moot now. The past is in the past. Pointing it out is not going to do anything.
I'm not harping on the developer. I'm using this opportunity to explain how communication with corporations can be confusing. The developer clearly knows they made mistakes and is doing the best they can. They did a great job of tracking the conversations and keeping the receipts, which is important in these situations, but isn't enough to save the app.
That "no changes for years" sounds very much like a verbal contract that could/should be enforced.
It occurs to me--could he go after Reddit for the cost of all those refunds? Detrimental reliance.
> We can debate if the API fees are reasonable or not - but at the end of the day, Apollo chose a model that doesn't work unless Reddit continued to favor them and apps like them.
Reddit could simply treat them reasonably and things would be fine. There's no need for favoritism, they just need to stop being actively harmful. And part of that is the fees (they're not reasonable).
I have real sympathy for the developer of Apollo; at the same time it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another that I find it difficult to be 100% sympathetic.
It's like, I know this funded company that's doing a lot of work using intel SGX, if intel kill it, about 80 people lose the jobs and several million in VC goes up in smoke. It's insane to me that people are building businesses that can be killed by 3rd parties that they have no hope of influencing, and have no contracts with.
Another chapter of the internet drama concludes, I suppose. I wish them all the best and I'll be curious to see if reddit survives.
it was such a huge and obvious risk to stake your entire business on the whims of another
How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider? Or a business having to renew their contract with the power company?
> How is this different than any other business running (part of) their operations at a large cloud provider?
You pay for your cloud provider...
If they were already paying, do you think that would have prevented a huge price hike with similar effect?
Probably, for two reasons.
First being Reddit wouldn't have suddenly needed to stop supporting 3rd party apps for free - apps that only cost Reddit money and generate no income. If the API made Reddit money, instead of costing them money, there would be no need for a sudden change. The "suddenness" of this change is due, in no small part, to the cost of supporting basically free-loading 3rd party apps that consume resources but offer nothing in exchange.
Secondly, Apollo would have formed a business model that supported paying for API access, be it monthly subscriptions, freemium, etc. The current model of pay-once-use-forever is simply unsustainable (on an obvious level) - and the $12.99 annual subscription equally so. The Apollo model, as it was, required free API access.
Even if Apollo had been paying for API access all along, and Reddit decided to suddenly hike the prices - Apollo would have been in a better position to raise their own prices accordingly, and would have had a userbase more accepting of paying.
Paying for API access also compels the business to be more efficient in their calls. As it was, there was little-to-no incentive to operate large content caching on your own servers/services, etc. I have seen, but do not know their credibility, that Apollo was not very efficient in it's API calls and essentially hammered the API far more than was necessary. If you're not paying for it, why would you bother designing a more efficient system?
The API fees were inevitable. More are coming - be sure of that, as corporations tighten their figurative belts and look for ways to stop bleeding money.
The 12.99/yr model could have been perfectly sustainable. Why not?
And the "hammering" is addressed and strongly countered in the article.
The new thread, with the backend dump indicates it polled reddit every 6 seconds per user for new messages.
Maybe it's necessary, but that seems awfully tight timing. I have not reviewed any of the rest. My understanding is they tried to emulate push notifications...
$12.99 per year was priced with majority of the compute burden foisted upon Reddit. Apollo had servers too, but apparently took a lot of steps to minimize what they did in order to keep subscription prices super low.
$12.99 doesn't pay for an the free users that might not be hammering the API quite on the same level as the paid users, but hammered it non the less.
Every six seconds when active, but only 345 requests per user per day total?
If the polling was the bulk of the traffic they could just remove that feature.
And there's no way the compute burden is an entire dollar to do 4000 requests.
Fair points.
Specifically, the $12.99/year model is floating a ton of free users, in addition to paying for server resource usage. None of that $12.99 currently was allocated to paying Reddit, and we know Apollo calculated an approximate cost of $2.50 per user per month with the new API fees.
This $2.50 fee seems to align costs with what we can reasonably expect Reddit to earn per user on their platform. Reddit prices Premium membership at $5.99 monthly, which among other benefits removes all ads. $5.99 likely indicates a $2-3 profit when all ads are removed but user engagement remains constant.
The typical mildly engaged Reddit users probably easily spends an hour a day looking at ads via the app - so while the math may be fuzzy, it seems like Reddit possibly based their API pricing off something like this.
At a minimum, that is $2.50 x 12 = $30 of cost annually per user. This means all users need to pay Apollo $30 a year to break even on just Reddit fees, or some subset of users needs to pay a lot more than $30 a year to float a bunch of free users. Apollo has other expenses too (labor, servers, etc.).
Even if the API fees were reduced 80% down to $0.50 per user per month, that's still $6 annually per user - and Apollo has a lot of free users.
All of this is to say, the $12.99/year membership for Apollo was never going to work with any API fees.
Apollo seemed willing to make $12.99/year mandatory, pay some to Reddit, and cut the free users. That would have worked if Reddit started charging fees that were in line with either imgur's prices or their existing revenue numbers or a small multiple of them. Which is a range between 50 cents a year and 6 dollars a year.
I expect that the reddit premium price is far above the ad revenue from a mildly engaged user.
> in line with either imgur's prices
These things are different though, we must admit. Imgur used to be much bigger, but today hardly pulls the same audience volume that Reddit or Twitter do, for instance. I don't think Imgur could get away with API pricing like Twitter is, and Reddit will soon be.
> I expect that the reddit premium price is far above the ad revenue from a mildly engaged user.
Given the number of ads you see while browsing via the official app, I would peg it around $2 per user per month (which mostly aligns with my previous statements and estimates, as well as with API pricing), for someone that uses Reddit for 1-2 hours daily. I suspect, without evidence and can be wrong, that 1-2 hours daily is typical for a mildly engaged Reddit user.
Apollo doesn't need to drop free users - they need to get revenue from them. If not directly, then via ads. Although that seems antithetical to what Apollo was trying to create... but reality has come knocking.
You can change cloud and energy provider, Apollo can't change reddit provider. ?
Yeah a ramp-up of the fees or more than 30 days of notice would be enough.
> I see zero reason Apollo couldn't switch to a monthly billing model
He probably could, but not in 30 days.
> but somehow forgot to become a real business along the way it seems.
Or chose not to.
Thirty days is not entirely representative of the timeframe for the change. Two and a half months is closer to the proper range.
Reddit will begin charging for access to its API (nytimes.com) 303 points by alexrustic 51 days ago | 339 comments --- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35617763
https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/12ram0f/had_a_fe... was posted April 19th.
https://www.redditinc.com/blog/2023apiupdates
> ANNOUNCEMENTS Staff • April 18, 2023
> ...
> To ensure developers have the tools and information they need to continue to use Reddit safely, protect our users’ privacy and security, and adhere to local regulations, we’re making updates to the ways some can access the Reddit Data API:
> We are introducing a new premium access point for third parties who require additional capabilities, higher usage limits, and broader usage rights.
How, exactly, would you expect someone to change their pricing model when they don’t know what the prices would be?
The prices themselves were announced May 30th. I guess if you’re feeling generous, that would be 32 days notice.
He had notice there would be a change and was explicitly told:
> The information they did provide however was: we will be moving to a paid API as it's not tenable for Reddit to pay for third-party apps indefinitely (understandable, agreed), so they're looking to do equitable pricing based in reality. They mentioned that they were not looking to be like Twitter, which has API pricing so high it was publicly ridiculed.
There is absolutely no actionable information there, and everything they said indicated that it wouldn’t be an unreasonable change.
They were supposed to have all of the billing framework figured out for monthly subscription model. The exact pricing could have been a variable set when the changes pushed into production.
30 days is ample notice to Apollo's users.
Apollo has had since April to figure out how to make a monthly subscription work, on a technical level. Now... having done nothing smart in the meantime, are left with very little time to make the changes. That is 100% on Apollo.
Are you employed by Reddit or something?
You shift the blame like there’s no tomorrow. At this point you either work for them, or are getting paid exorbitant amounts of money to defend them. That’s the only reasonable explanation for why you’d be pushing the blame so hard.
Even if he had a full system set up in a month and a half (a fairly tight deadline), 32 days is an unreasonably short amount of time to make any sort of material change to your terms, let alone raising the cost exorbitantly.
Hilariously, your first comment wishes people would pledge to pay for Apollo. How we got from there to… this bullshit is beyond me. At least it only took a few hours to show your true colors.
Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it not true.
Your "32 days" timeline you keep going on about is false no matter what way you look at it.
Apollo has known since April API pricing was coming, and there was no way their existing "pay once, use it forever" or even the $12.99 per year model was going to be sustainable - particularly given how many free users they float monthly.
Not knowing the exact fee in advance is completely irrelevant. The infrastructure needed to be built to support a monthly subscription model, freemium models, or whatever they needed to do to pivot and remain in business.
100% of the reason people use Apollo is because of the data and community Reddit has built. Apollo basically leached off that data, and made a profit while doing so. Any sound business operator would understand and plan for risks that endanger their business. Apollo failed to take action in a timely manner, and failed to mitigate risks to it's business.
Now they're being asked to pay for the API access that makes Apollo's business possible - and even if the API fees were 1/4 of the proposed amount, Apollo was going to need to change their model. That is the point you, and many others seem to be missing - Apollo was not going to survive paying anything for API access - Apollo had no plan.
I cannot make it any more clear - Apollo failed to plan for, and mitigate risks and failed to take corrective actions in time to save their business.
Apollo was run like a hobby side-project - not a business.
> Apollo was run like a hobby side-project - not a business.
Not everything has to be run like a business, you understand that right? You’re acting like this is a big when it’s a feature.
This is a project run by a single person. And has been, since its creation. On purpose. You clearly don’t like that for whatever idiotic reason and your entire premise hinges on the fact that you think every single project in the world needs to be run like a perfect megacorp. Guess what? The world doesn’t work like that.
The rest of your BS has already been debunked. Multiple times. By multiple people. You restating it continues to be just that, regardless how many times you insist on it.
If you want to work for Reddit so badly, try applying for a job. I’m sure they’ll appreciate your obvious shilling for no discernible reason.
> Not everything has to be run like a business, you understand that right?
Sure, that is reasonable. But then the victim card cannot be played when the business fails to act accordingly, no?
> The rest of your BS has already been debunked
Besides your insistence on alternative facts, I do not see anything "debunking" anything I have written. Again, just because you don't agree does not make it not true.
> If you want to work for Reddit so badly, try applying for a job.
Generally, you will be better off attacking someone's argument instead of their motivations.
> But then the victim card cannot be played when the business fails to act accordingly, no?
What business?
It’s not a fucking business. Stop insisting it is. We literally just went over this.
> Besides your insistence on alternative facts, I do not see anything "debunking" anything I have written. Again, just because you don't agree does not make it not true.
The fact that half of your comments have been flagged and downvoted to death, and that multiple people have pointed out your straight up lies should tell you plenty about who is dealing in “alternative facts”.
> Generally, you will be better off attacking someone's argument instead of their motivations.
Yeah that hasn’t seemed to work with you for the past half day, so I don’t understand why you would expect people to keep trying when you clearly don’t bother with things like “taking things to heart”, “having a discussion in good faith”… or really “reading”.
Next time, stick to actual facts and don’t pretend everything is a business that needs to be maximally efficient.
> It’s not a fucking business. Stop insisting it is.
Apollo was/is a business, handles hundreds of thousands of dollars annually, and has a huge customer base. We cannot make up definitions and then insist others agree.
> We literally just went over this.
You mean, you did. Sorry to not play into your fantasy universe - out here in the real world, shouting something louder doesn't make it true.
> The fact that half of your comments have been flagged and downvoted to death
You make the mistake of placing stock in whatever button people click on a website - usually based on emotion, but not always. Either way, Internet Points are not real...
You may not like the facts - but that's why they are facts. They do not change even if you hate them. Calm down, re-read the original posts, and then we can discuss things more civilly.
Reading up on it...
https://apolloapp.io/pro-ultra/
Apparently Apollo has paid subscriptions as a way to finance it.
He would have to turn off the functionality if there is no subscription in order to avoid spending too much for API calls.
Currently this subscription is described as:
> second is Apollo Ultra, the highest tier, which includes everything in Apollo Pro plus additional features. Apollo Ultra is a subscription offering of $1.49 USD per month (or $12.99/year, or a lifetime unlock option is offered in the app) and is a subscription due to options within it having ongoing monthly costs to me, the developer.
The approach would be to do a subscription price change for Apollo Ultra from $1.49/month to $10/month (or whatever the math works out to be - I'm using $10 as an example).
About subscription price changes - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213252
> Developers who offer subscriptions can increase the price of a subscription without interrupting service only under certain specific conditions. If the increase does not exceed approximately USD $5 and 50% of the subscription price, or USD $50 and 50% for annual subscriptions, and where permitted by law, developers may change the price without interrupting service. Developers may do this no more than once per year.
Everyone who is subscribed would get an alert and no payment would go through.
However, the code is already there to work as a subscription app.
---
I would also draw attention to https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/141mjij/lets_tal...
> My last thing I wanted to address, and I might be burying the lede a bit here, is some of misleading, or downright inaccurate and untruthful claims that the admins have made in regards to these changes..
> > Apollo could reduce their cost by 3.5x if they were as efficient as these other 3P apps.
> So I have not dug into Apollo specifically as I didn't have an iOS rooted device handy. BUT, my guess as to the "increased calls" is due to them more frequently checking if a user has messages, and/or less caching of comment sections and more re-pulling them for the latest on navigation. Could Apollo not check for messages as frequently? Sure.. Reddit is Fun used to check for messages on any refresh it seems, and they sometime somewhat recently seem to have changed that and for game day threads which I frequently use it for, I often miss responses to my comments for a very long time because it seems to only do it now every so often.
> ...
> Edit: it was brought to my attention that Apollo does push notifications for messages even when you aren't using the app. This is almost certainly the main discrepancy between it and other apps API usage. And it could have been a back end change then related to the polling for those notifications that caused a reduction in API calls
Some of the architecture for that is described https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/9l3ema/apollo_13...
> For some quick math, Apollo has well over 100K active users. The server polls Reddit approximately every 6 seconds, so that's 10 requests per minute per user, or 600 requests per hour per user (assuming they only have one account and one device). At 100,000+ users, that's in the realm of 60 million requests per hour that my server would have to handle, not to mention parsing the results, coordinating tokens, etc. I really can't do that for nothing, so the plan was to offer push notifications with a small fee associated to cover these ongoing server costs.
> I understand the logic in not charging for basic system features such as camera usage, but push notifications require a server in order to function, and servers aren't free (in fact they get costly quick). I also offer a completely free system that does not use a server so those who don't want to have to pay can have their device function as the server and use local notifications (which are slightly delayed as it uses Background Fetch and using the device uses more battery), but remote notifications necessitate a server.
As it is designed, Apollo is very heavy on active polling for notifications.
This is described by Christian here - https://youtu.be/Ypwgu1BpaO0?t=1729 that it is polling reddit once every 10 seconds for each user of Apollo constantly.
There is nothing foolish about all of this. The developer saw an opportunity based on the platform's free access, and built a business on it. Wise decision. Then the platform is no longer free, so the original business case no longer exists, and they decide to shut down. Another wise decision.
Do you know what happens when you pay blackmail or protection money? It keeps happening, and at more cost each iteration.
If they came out with a reasonable set of conditions to do API access, people would be a lot less upset. But they didn't. And those API fees are guaranteed to go only up, up, and further up.
Time to get out of reddit when the gettin's good.
Right now, I would only pay for a subscription if there was a way for reddit to get none of the money.
I can understand that position in this case but really the idea of passing the cost along to provide a high quality experience seems nice. Like imagine a third party YouTube client where you pay the UI developer to make a UI that doesn't urinate in your breakfast cereal. You get a better experience and they show you the YouTube catalog. Now imagine the same app has access to HBO and Disney and Netflix. I could see paying a premium for that because it separates the platform's incentives from the UI incentives, which removes the dark pattern incentives like promoting the platform's own content.
It would be a cheap shot for me to just say "you didn't read the post, did you?" but he does explain it.
Spite is how humans enforce social norms. In this case, they lied to him, slandered him with easily falsifiable things they even admitted he didn't say.
The relationship is broken.
Sometimes, in the real world, and especially with business - you must swallow your pride to survive another day.
Shutting down a popular business because things got temporarily inconvenient is immature at best.
HN, alone, is filled with people willing to pay $5 a month. He doesn't need to find new subscribers, he already has them! He's just not asking them for what he needs to continue operating.
That's entirely on Apollo...
No, no you don't. In business relationships are critical. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably one of the people you don't want to do business with. There's a name for people who will do anything for money and those are usually one off transactions. You've had a month of everyone telling this guy he's dumb to trust a 3rd party with your platform and now the 2cynical4u people are saying shut up and be a whore.
You're just being an unconstructive critic.
And you have no evidence it's temporary.
Nah nobody's going to pay for Reddit.
Monetisation of social networks only works via ads/tracking.
The amount of Reddit Gold that's thrown around seems to disagree...
The post details how yearly subscriptions is one of the major issues, not monthly ones. There is already an update to monthly prices from 1.99 to 5.99, but the people on the yearly subscription locked in 0.99 or something like that.
The 30 day window was not enough time to rectify that and would cost him 50k in the first month to cover the diff. The author suggested he needed at least 3 months to implement changes and switch at least some portion of yearly subscribers to a higher price.
Seems stupid to reward Reddit's decision. The $5 ends up in Reddit's pocket. I'd much rather fund a decentralized competitor to Reddit.
> I'd much rather fund a decentralized competitor to Reddit
Right - and in 10 years everyone will still be using Reddit, Apollo will just be a distant memory, and nobody will give any thought to the API pricing model.
Just reality...
I can't change the world, but I can control my individual actions. I'll be deleting my Reddit account by the end of the month. Reddit is basically unusable for me from all their default surfaces: 1. Mobile website has large banners to download the app. 2. Mobile app is confusing as shit and tries to mimic TikTok 3. Desktop browsing experience is probably one of the worst apps. I've been using old.reddit and RES to keep it somewhat useable.
Or, this will be Reddit's Digg moment, and the masses will move on from an increasingly user-hostile platform, onto the next new shiny thing, for another cycle.
Very odd for reddit to discount that it survives based on the free labour of power users, many of whom use Apollo and similar apps. This is one of those areas where a pure cost benefit analysis doesn't work.
I mod a top 1% sub and one of our moderators exclusively uses Apollo for moderation work. Official Reddit app doesn't work well, and their workflow for modding doesn't involve a computer.
....what's that worth to Reddit?
I feel like a mod blackout on all of Reddit would send a nice message. Reddit without the mods becomes 4chan. Maybe the mods should send Reddit a bill? I’d love that. Thousands and thousands of bills from mods for their time over the years. Then take them to collections and small claims court when they don’t pay. Would be entertaining if nothing else.
Looks like June 30th is also the day I'll stop using Reddit. What a coincidence!
Same. I only accessed Reddit with Apollo.
I decided to rip the bandaid off now. Uninstalled it earlier tonight. Honestly, I don’t want to support Reddit anymore.
The only thing more embarrassing than Reddit's behavior is that after 18 years and hundreds of millions in funding they can't make an app or website with a better experience than what someone can do in their basement with just API access.
Part of me thinks that one of the reasons they want to kill 3rd party apps is because they're embarrassed that they're all better than whatever Reddit has come up in the last decade.
Maybe they should listen to mods and users instead of trying to push whatever they want down users' throats, because it's not going to last much longer.
Probably because third-party apps aren't optimized to shove as many ads down the user's throat as possible.
nah, their apps aren't just shitty in the normal commercial way. they're shitty in the non-functional way, non-money-making way. like not being able to figure out how to play videos.
Even old.reddit.com was having problems playing videos for a bit.
It's all clown college over there and this latest saga is their new graduate degree program. I'm afraid to see what the doctoral program will bring.
This is precisely what they thought they were doing.
They are thinking that there is "money on the table" without their ability to monetize their traffic...
As opposed to thinking of reddit as a fucking internet UTILITY -- they are doing the same VC / MBA bullshit as every single other tech company.
To be fair, there is a difference between a for-profit company that everyone thinks is a utility, and a public utility.
However, they’ve shot themselves in the foot. For generating more ad revenue here IMO. The sort of ill-will they’re creating will probably drive away the top-posters and moderators that make the site worth visiting.
Is ad space on a site that’s contracted by 1% of its users going to tank in value? No probably not. But is the 99% going to stick around when the content they came for is missing or not moderated? Ehhh…
They killed Alien Blue to create the objectively worse Reddit app, despite the aforementioned funding and presumably skilled devs working there.
They did make i.reddit.com which was a nice, fast, usable mobile site with no ads, and no app required.
They shut it down two months ago.
The end of Apollo is the end of Reddit for me. As with Twitter, I'll be taking my toys with me when I leave the sandbox.
What are good tools for erasing one's Reddit history? I just learned about redact.dev (but haven't tried it yet) for example.
UPDATE: react.dev seems to work well. It's deleted 1.5K+ posts as I type this at 0.65–0.85 per second.
> Then yesterday, moderators told me they were on a call with CEO Steve Huffman (spez), and he said the following per their transcript:
> Steve: "Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million." Steve: "This guy behind the scenes is coercing us. He's threatening us."
> Wow. Because my memory is that you didn't take it as a threat, and you even apologized profusely when you admitted you misheard it.
Wow, I didn't know it'd gotten that bad.
Reddit leadership desperate to dump the pig on public markets, pulling out all the stops. Literally their only path forward is to find some other greater fool to hold the bags, regardless of what they have to say to make it happen.
Edit: Maybe keep an eye on what they say to catch them performing material securities fraud? Wayback early, wayback often!
Edit 2: Damage control mode: https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ce... (r/reddit: Join our CEO tomorrow to discuss the API [Locked])
Locking comments on a website built on the commenting system. Something hilarious about that.
> 0 points (18% upvoted)
lol
Reddit could have snatched victory from the jaws of defeat simply by purchasing Apollo and making it available as an official app. So many people would have paid a significant monthly fee for an ad-free, quality mobile reddit experience. But no, they had to go full-on maximalist destroy-all-intruders mode, and now they've got an unnecessary PR nightmare on their hands. From the perspective of fiduciary responsibility, reddit is completely deficient. What a bunch of idiots.
They didn't even need to do that. They could simply have changed the terms so that user-facing clients like apollo either need to show reddit ads, allowing no ads for users of reddit premium. They approve api users anyways, supposedly, so mod tools and the like could be exempt, and they could introduce higher cost efficient bulk export of comments for large scale generative AI machine learning use cases.
Instead of being the shit-show it is now, it could have been a good money maker.
I agree with the rest of your point but
> need to show reddit ads
I've always thought about this too but I've heard this is a non starter for advertising companies, most companies want to know exactly where their ads are being served before putting money on the table.
How long do you think Reddit would have kept Apollo ad-free? That would cost them whatever Apollo cost and have the same result. The value proposition of Apollo is that Reddit doesn't own it. They already have a client. It sucks. Why would this be better?
Reddit already offers an ad-free experience for $50 a year with reddit premium. Throw in Apollo with that premium, and you start earning $50 a year from a bunch of users who were previously generating zero revenue through ad views.
Yes, that makes sense. But do you think Reddit would actually do that? Apollo has a better UX. Reddit has proven they don’t want to build a good UX. If they bought Apollo they would only ruin it.
Honestly this is the tipping point for me to just move on. Reddit is an ad-filled cesspool, with a morally bankrupt C-suite. Growing up I actually looked up to this guy. . . how pathetic and sad. Such a fall from grace, and for what?
When your landlord raises your rent from $2000 to $8000, they're not really hoping to raise your rent. They're evicting you.
I think the new API pricing model was developed with a single purpose: extinguishing third-party apps to improve the official app's install/usage metrics before their upcoming IPO.
This is certain. Can you imagine how embarrassing it must be? A solo dev did what you couldn't all because you were too busy force feeding everyone ads. I would love to know what these executives tell themselves to convince each other they are not the bad guys.
When they go to IPO, there should be a public announcement of all the reprehensible content they allowed for decades, such as spacedicks, violentacruz, picsofdeadkids, cannabilism, etc
(and dont forget that cannabilism was the sub ran by CEO /u/spez where he was openly talking about how much he wanted to eat a baby.)
I am not slandering him -- I am QUOTING him.
I don't know what's a reasonable rate per API call. But it costs reddit to provide this API for free, not only are these apps not serving reddit's ads but they are actively taking up server resources.
I’m the guy who built the server end of Apollo. I can tell you that there would be no problem paying for API usage. In fact, it would have been welcomed, as this is a sure fire way to support the service you depend on.
Was the asking price really so unreasonable? Facebook makes $70 per user/year, how much would the reddit API have to cost to hit that number? All the comments about it just point to "server cost break even point", but reddit has tons of other costs, plus it's a business that exists to make a profit. I haven't done the math here, but the analysis I've seen seems flawed.
The API pricing is what Reddit claims to be "server cost break even point". https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_upda...
Christian's (Apollo developer) math of $20 million a year in API cost is based off of Reddit's entire revenue for the year and not just breakeven costs. https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_ca...
> Was the asking price really so unreasonable?
Most third-party apps have announced shutdown plans. they would not do this if the pricing was reasonable.
Was the asking price really so unreasonable?
Maybe so, maybe not. The way it was handled was absolutely unreasonable.
Of the affected reader apps, the only ones with subscription models were Sync (on Android) and Apollo (on iOS). Basically everything else was one time purchases for some combination of an ad-free version and/or improved functionality.
For those apps not using subscriptions, they were basically told "you must now set up to handle subscriptions and detailed tracking of API usage" and given either ~75 days (from the 4/18 announcement) or ~30 days (from the pricing availability) to design, code, submit, get reviewed, resubmit, etc their apps, along with any business changes needed to handle substantial cash flow through the app, with only fixed upfront charges available to receive money and only postpaid usage-based charges for disbursing that money. Oh, and any app displaying third party ads (basically all of them) must stop doing so.
Personally I think that the third party apps weren't even considered in the decision making process because they're such a trivial percentage of API usage (credible reason to expect that all of them combined were ~5% or less of API usage, slightly more reliable numbers to believe that Apollo was < ~1.4% of API usage). Whether not factoring those in was incompetence or not is probably a matter of opinion. Or maybe there was actual malice and someone did want them all gone if someone on the official app side regarded them as competition to eliminate.
If the apps were considered and it was (quite fairly) decided that they needed to be a source of income, that's trivial to accomplish with reduced impact on the apps and more income flowing directly to Reddit. Boom! New policy! API usage requires a paid account and has enforced limits based on the account type! Introduce account tiers other than just Premium, change some features between them, collect all the money instead of filtering it through developers paying 30% to the app stores, and it's all very easy to implement for the developers.
I believe facebook has a much lower average revenue per user of around $10.
From the calculations I've seen reddit's average revenue per user is much lower at around $2-3. However, the price on the API for Apollo in specific is of $30 per user per year.
It's not charity. These apps are providing traffic, engagement and valuable content. Reddit should be paying them for bringing users to their platform.
I think they were also considering the crawlers that were using Reddit data to train AI models.
Couldn’t crawlers just scrape w/o using the api?
Agreed. All those 3rd party apps were blocking ads and trackers.
Hell you can't even browse Reddit without an account anymore!
They were not "blocking" ads and trackers, those features are not exposed by the API. They couldn't do it even if they wanted to, which was discussed at some point.
>Hell you can't even browse Reddit without an account anymore!
Yes, you can, via old.reddit.com.
Which is exactly why i'm leaving Reddit. I don't imagine old.reddit will be around much longer either.
same here. once old.reddit is gone, im gone as well
…that’s going to be the next thing they get rid of
They tried to a while ago - and the old.redditors (like me, 17 year account) complained - and they keep it around. I exclusively use old.
-- Replying to below:
???
I use OLD+RES for MY consumption and data density - if you dont know how to configure these together to create a much faster, and more aesthetically pleasing (to me) UX - then that sucks.
https://i.imgur.com/gdDawWz.png
https://i.imgur.com/jlTJGaT.png
So much more pleasant and quicker - especially with hover - I dont even need to click links
https://i.imgur.com/jDvjQwM.jpg
Which of the following do you find pleasing, its personal opinion, so choose what you like - I prefer old.
These are the same page, the only diff is old. vs www.
https://i.imgur.com/mnl5pCb.png <-- www
https://i.imgur.com/JfFZMQX.png <-- old
---
https://i.imgur.com/WxsmDkc.png <-- www
https://i.imgur.com/cKs3uVA.png <-- old
Hate to break it to you, but nobody uses old anymore. As a subreddit mod you can see traffic breakdown stats, and old makes up around 5% of traffic. Up to 10% on some subs. I'm a moderator of a highly technical niche sub and it's about 5-10% for me. Other mods of various subs have commented with their stats and it's always in that 5-10 range.
Old users may create more content than normal users, I don't know about that. The niche subs might take a hit, but the main website and big subs will continue on without disruption if they kill old. (Assuming mods continue to mod - and Reddit can replace/hire mods as needed)
I use old. I’m sure it’s a minority, but either volume or quality of those users is, for now, enough value for Reddit to support it. As much as I’d like them to keep old indefinitely, I’m sure they’re just waiting for the value equation to tip negative before they kill old.
Can you see traffic through apps/API?
For my sub it's about:
5% old.reddit.com
>10% "iOS"
>10% "mobile web"
20% "Android"
50% new.reddit.com (non-mobile, presumably)
Most subs should have a pretty similar distribution, the numbers don't vary much.
Reddit doesn't specify how it tracks 3rd party apps and APIs in these stats.
Yeah, if they kill old.reddit I’ll use it significantly less. Not only is it more annoying with more friction, even if I was still willing to use it for a rough avg(minutes per day) pushing through the annoyance, I wouldn’t be able to consume as much in the same period of time
Precisely - information density on old is what users want - sparseness of information with plenty of space for ads and shiny-objects is what the suits want.
Not sure what you mean by "trackers". Reddit knows exactly what you did in the 3rd party app via the API. The app tells the API who you are.
>Do I support the protest/Reddit blackout?
>Abundantly. Unlike other social media companies like Facebook and Twitter who pay their moderators as employees, Reddit relies on volunteers to do the hard work for free. I completely understand that when tools they take to do their volunteer, important job are taken away, there is anger and frustration there. While I haven't personally mobilized anyone to participate in the blackout out of fear of retaliation from Reddit, the last thing I want is for that to feel like I don't support the folks speaking up. I wholeheartedly do.
>It's been a horrible week, and the kindness Redditors and moderators and communities have shown Apollo and other third-party apps has genuinely made it much more bearable and I am genuinely so appreciative.
>I am, admittedly, doubtful Reddit wants to listen to folks anymore so I don't see it having an effect.
Man this is just a bummer to read.
It's moves like these that will create the alternative to Reddit. It was this style of anti-consumer moves that killed Digg. History is repeating itself.
People have tried to create alternatives to Reddit numerous times over previous controversies. It never sticks. I don't see this time being different.
The previous controversies have been stuff that it's pretty easy to not care about. This time, it's actually affecting a fair number of people. We'll have to see if this time is different.
Previous controversies include the subreddit dedicated to jailbait and on multiple occasions protecting abusers and pedophiles.
While you might be right, super fucked up if their users care more about third party apps being killed than their long past acceptance of child exploitation.
Most Reddit alternatives were founded on the basis of defending "free speech" in direct reaction to Reddit banning places like /r/FatPeopleHate and /r/The_Donald. Their userbase predictably filled up quickly with shameless bigots and generated correspondingly bigoted content.
I am not absolutely certain that this will produce a viable competitor but I would give it better odds than anything else in the past. It is not only a direct, immediate hit to the enjoyability of being on Reddit for any reason: it also heralds worse changes to come. Deprecating RES and old.reddit is the next natural step.
Honestly I would say that apps like Alien Blue and later Apollo made the difference in making Reddit as big and durably popular as it is now. Killing them, especially so visibly and messily, will cause an immediate exodus of some app users and a slow drain of the others. It certainly will not grow Reddit.
This. The main issue is there doesn't seem to be a natural alternative like reddit was to digg (since, as you say, the ones that have popped up so far are often quickly filled with people toxic enough to get banned from reddit). So I think any transition will be a lot messier.
Largely because there was no need, or the experience was much worse. This is starting to change.
You don’t need all of Reddit.
You need enough power users to sustain interest, post content, and launch it.
The goal shouldn’t be to replace Reddit as it exists today, because if you go down that route you are doomed to repeat their mistakes of constant growth at the cost of everything else.
This is exactly my goal with building https://flingup.com
It never does, until it does.
Tha dam will burst, it's not a question of if but when. It's a guarantee from the ever declining quality of reddit.
Relay App is also shutting down https://www.reddit.com/r/RelayForReddit/comments/13wsn92/gue...
He put his email address at the end. As I told him in what I’m sure will be jillions of emails about the subject:
> Have just read your amazing, sad, comprehensive Reddit post about the end of Apollo.
> I was one of those long-ago paid-once users :-) and happily used Apollo for years. When I found out a few days ago what was happening to you, I actually deleted Apollo from my devices so I wouldn’t inadvertently cost you money through background stuff once Reddit’s API fees went into effect. Then, as I got really mad over what they’d done to you and the other third-party app devs, I spent hours deleting every comment and every submission I’d ever made to Reddit — because, of course, they don’t have a UI where you can do that easily — and then killed my account after seven years, just because all of this had made me no longer want any association with that platform.
For anybody who would like to mass delete their own comments and submissions: https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite/
Note: Reddit switched to archiving posts older than 6 months by default many years ago. Individual subreddits can opt-out of this behavior. If they have not, you will not be able to edit/remove your comments or posts there.
This seems like a much more effective protest vs. subreddits going dark.
Let us not forget that they have been "experimenting" with killing mobile browser access on users: https://old.reddit.com/r/help/comments/135tly1/helpdid_reddi...
This is the death knell of Reddit, and I hope that the blackout succeeds in getting them to revert their greedy plan.
For what it's worth, I'm looking forward to July 1. Twitter had become a chore, but I didn't quit altogether until I was pushed out by losing the one client I found decent. It's been for the better. Like Twitter, Reddit has been on a long decline and has long since become a habit I stick to for no real reason other than that it's familiar.
Same boat. It's going to be pretty trivial to stop browsing reddit once Apollo is gone. I'll probably still read links through google search from time to time, but it'll be a 99% reduction in usage for me.
Funny that this was just demo'd in Apple's Keynote this week
That explains why WWDC was popping up while searching for 'Apollo'!
Reference: https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/141mdvt/apollo_o... (Video with timestamp: https://youtu.be/GYkq9Rgoj8E?t=2780)
(In other news, TIL Youtube search seemingly looks through transcripts. Nice!)
A lot. I've watched both the keynote and also the Platforms State of the Union and not only did I hear it by name in the keynote, I've seen its icon in the background in both the keynote and the PSotU.
Reddit is Digging its own grave. Eternal September awaits all the old school forums that still remain. But perhaps that decentralization will be a good thing in the end.
I think the network effects of Reddit are a lot easier to undo than that of Twitter. There is little core functionality that didn’t exist in forum software from the Naughties.
Honestly it's probably better for the web if it reverts back to the model of smaller independent forums. HN is a good example of a healthy small/medium sized community.
I would say the 'social media era' of the history of the web has concluded in failure. When you consolidate everyone onto a singular platform, it creates a weird unhealthy community dynamic, and the business incentives do not align at all with users.
do you happen to know of general programming/computer science forums (not counting hacker news)? That's really my only interest, I enjoy TV and movies but like discussing those in person nowadays.
Why discount HN? This is where I get most of my tech news from. ArsTechnica has forums too, though not sure how active those are.
HN doesn't lend itself to community building well, it's more like a meetup spot IME. Also it may be my eyes but I hardly notice people's names on here compared to something like reddit.
You might like https://lobste.rs
I'd love to see a federated Reddit clone. Administrators should have power over their communities, nor Reddit.
I don’t like the idea of giving Reddit mods even more power, at all. I’d much rather see users empowered to share Usenet style kill-lists and whatnot. But I have a bad feeling that my desired Goldilocks zone between 2023 Reddit’s overmoderation and 2023 Twitter’s hyper-radicalization engine is very narrow. Social media moderation might be an intractable problem at scale.
I don’t know what the solution is, but I’m really rooting for Reddit to crash and burn. I miss the old internet…
It’ll be interesting to see how Blue Sky shakes out, if and when it opens up to the public.
You mean other than Lemmy?
> Please note that I recorded all my calls with Reddit, so my statements are not based on memory, but the recorded statements by Reddit over the course of the year. One-party consent recording is legal in my country of Canada. Also I won't be naming names, that's not important and I don't want to doxx people.
IMO this should be much more common practice, where it's legal. It would be cool to one day have built-in functions in our smartphones that automatically enable it when the detected location allows for it.
My Xiaomi phone records every call, it should be a standard feature, but Google doesn't seem to like it.
https://karnatakastateopenuniversity.in/call-recording-on-xi...
https://www.androidpolice.com/google-ends-call-recording-app...
Shit, I really hope it doesn't. Do you really want every silly thing you say be recorded, to come bite you in the ass decades down the line?
In things to do with business, yes, if you behave ethically the risk is minimal and the upsides can save your ass like in this case.
A question Canadians don't seem to be partly perturbed by.
The legality is immaterial as this isn't a court case. If someone wants to record you without notifying you, they will.
Yep. I record every call I have with anything resembling sales or tech support. I’ll hold companies to promises they make if they can hold me to mine.
RIF has now announced they will also be shutting down on June 30th
https://www.reddit.com/r/redditisfun/comments/144gmfq/rif_wi...
This is pretty wild. I don't think I've ever seen something like this. I like it. I think Reddit needs to come down to reality.
You like it? This is the effect Reddit was trying to create - destroying third party apps which they are finding difficult to monetize. They're betting that these users will start using the website and the official Reddit app. How is this a good thing?
The only reason I said I like it is because I want Reddit to face repercussions for the decisions they're making. Sorry if it sounded any other way. This is absolutely awful for me as a user, especially since I used Apollo everyday. But something NEEDED to happen.
They won't.
I bet the only users they lose will be the real power-users, ya know, volunteer moderators and that sort.
Hopefully for the owners’ sake they manage to finish their IPO before that whole situation explodes.
> Hopefully for the owners’ sake they manage to finish their IPO before that whole situation explodes.
That just kicks the can. After the IPO there are more owners on the hook if things go critically bad.
If the 3rd part Apps did find some way to eat the cost, it would basically solve reddit's monetization problem. Redditors could feel good paying 10$/month to their favorite reddit ap developer, and not evil corpo Reddit, and reddit gets their money.
This was probably the best-case-scenario Reddit was hoping for.
> I don't think I've ever seen something like this
Except for what happened with Twitter a few months ago.
But Twitter is better, leaner, and more popular than ever now, and deservedly so, now that that sinking ship was righted. Reddit doesn't deserve anything like that after this.
> But Twitter is better, leaner, and more popular than ever now, and deservedly so, now that that sinking ship was righted.
Hopefully this is sarcasm, because in reality the opposite is true (except for the leaner part).
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/technology/twitter-ad-sal...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/twitter-is-now-worth-a-third-of...
A company's monetary value is not necessarily tied to how well the app works for its users.
Twitter is better for users now. Because it's not censored to high hell.
> Twitter is better for users now
This is a totally subjective statement. For me its the opposite: All I seem to see there in replies lately are tweets about culture war bullshit talking points that are 100% noise and 0% intellectual value.
> Because it's not censored to high hell.
Except in Turkey, apparently
Seriously? It's worse than ever. If I make the mistake of loading up that site, my only notifications are crypto spam and the homepage has really messed up ads every second post, like stuff I never want to see again (like some kind of effed up mosquito killer appliance which shows them dumping thousands of dead mosquitos onto the ground to demonstrate it works -- WTAF?) ... Combined with suppressing non-"checkmark" users, which basically means "pay to have your voice heard", nonexistent moderation, among countless other issues...
If you say so!
I honestly don't think it will matter though. I've no data, but I bet Reddit doesn't need this traffic, most people's mums will just use the Reddit app and not care.
You’d think so, but your mother was coming to the site because it was moderated, and had regular interesting content. She probably wasn’t moderating or a top poster. Those people are the ones who are going to be pissed.
"I quickly put together a small app where I could input the prices and it would output monthly/yearly cost, cost for free users, paid users, etc. so I'd be able to process the information immediately."
Someone should tell this dude about Excel.
Why? This is the type of thing I use Python for all the time. I'm much better at Python than I am at Excel and Python isn't even my main language.
Based on him being an iOS dev, it sounded to me like he made an entire iOS app just to calculate some values, not a small command line application.
I actually prefer writing little JS apps to do stuff like this to using Excel.
Which I don't even have on my personal computer now that I think about it.
Assuming his goal was to be ready with results of his calculations in real time while on a call, which may happen while you’re away from your computer, it makes sense I think. Excel is great, but on phone while away from your computer? Not so sure.
While I agree with services pricing their APIs in any way they like, it's worth pointing out that Reddit's current CEO Steve Huffman is the very same person responsible for editing Reddit user comments as recently as 2016, like he was just an admin on some no-name forum. [1] On the eve of an IPO, someone that irresponsible and childish should not be leading this company.
I was initally on Reddit's side in this particular matter (and I still think Selig's API pricing justifications are worthless), but I was shocked to learn Huffman is still the CEO, so his offhand comments about this situation and Reddit's general bad faith interactions with Selig in the past week are now very obvious to me.
Anyway, all the best to Selig.
1: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/23/13739026/reddit-ceo-stev...
Why do you think Selig’s pricing justifications are worthless?
Reddit CEO will have AMA tomorrow https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ce...
Will he edit users' posts to ask the questions he likes answering?
https://old.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5frg1n/tifu_...
Anyone wanna take bets on if this will take the throne as the new most downvoted thing on reddit?
It’s practically a certainty. I’m going to make some popcorn and watch.
There’s absolutely nothing good that can come out of this for Reddit, unless they’re going to put up some concessions which are enough to get 3rd party devs back to the table.
I'm sure that will go over just swimmingly...
I for one welcome all of these tech CEOs making utter fools of themselves for us all to watch. And welcome the paradigm shift as people start seeing the technocrats for what they are. Steve, you could have walked away from it all years ago. And now you get to go down in history as a villain (hint: because you are one).
I think it speaks volumes about his mindset that he thinks this AMA is a good idea.
A virtual dictator organizing a virtual rally with virtual security guards suppressing everything other than preapproved questions. Future is here.
Looks like they just announced (as of about 30 mins ago) an AMA with u/spez tomorrow ...
https://old.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ce...
Not only does Steve Huffman need to step down and quit this whole business, the entire team of senior management at Reddit needs to just get away as far as they can from managing anything larger than a lemon stand. Impossibly stupid way of running things.
Edit: Jesus Christ, that guy on the other end of the phone has just completely destroyed himself in the world of business by lying about the conversation he had with the Apollo developer: https://christianselig.com/apollo-end/reddit-third-call-may-...
The solution seems so easy to me, just tie the API access to reddit gold. It wouldn’t be completely smooth sailing, there would still would be many upset users. At the same time though, they would pick up a massive number of subs.
The users that don’t value the apollo experience enough to pay for it would switch to the reddit app, driving more ad revenue. The users that do value the Apollo experience would still keep providing their content to the platform, in addition to becoming paid, direct, subscribers.
This really seems like an amateur strategy.. kill the massively popular apps with ridiculous pricing and unfair timelines, and hope that the users of this massive community organizing tool you control don’t use it against you? Cut off (and piss off) a big segment of your power users in hopes that a sizable chunk of them move to the native app?
There are multiple solutions. This is one of them. Another one would be a bring your own api key and as a user be able to pay. Another one would be to serve ads in the feed for 3rd party api access and make it mandatory thay ads are not filtered out. Yet another one is to work w/ the 3rd party apps to display the ads.
Reddit is just a dumb corpo that doesn't understand why they have success. Watch them backpedal hard.
This is totally wild. Apollo is easily one of the best iOS apps of all time and one that I use daily. I can't imagine it just poof disappearing over something like this.
Why not point Apollo at a Reddit alternative, or use the open-source code for Reddit (or code like this https://github.com/libertysoft3/saidit) instead of shutting it down?
If Apollo's users (or a good percentage of them) moved over to an alternative platform, that would be poetic justice, at least.
To go even further, all the app devs should get together and create a new platform or pick one Reddit alternative and point all their apps at it.
That way it would be even more likely to get critical mass quickly.
3 weeks should be enough time to come up with a coordinated plan. If anyone here has a connection to the app developers it could be a good thing to suggest.
Looks like I will be quitting Reddit on the 30th then. I refuse to use their dumpster fire known as the official app.
You can stop now. Web 2.0 social media is dead and web3 is unrefined garbage.
Time for web1 bulletin board/forums to return!
I personally like forums better anyways rather than the multithreaded up/down vote systems. I feel like the gamification of Reddit style discussion exaggerates echo chambers.
You might be right about the voting system, but reddit- (and HN-) style threading is so much better for following discussions as they naturally branch into different things. Trying to follow a certain "thread" of discussion in a traditional linear forum thread can be next to impossible when you have 10s of pages to flip through looking for any replies addressed to a comment on page 4.
Yep. Discussion boards should have a flagging mechanism for user-driven-moderation to help remove hateful/inappropriate/offensive content but that's it.
I much prefer the multithreaded UI, but agree that the up/down vote systems aren't great. If it were simply sorted by time, I'd be happy.
Can we venture back to Web0 and BBSes? I was too born too late in to this world to encounter such glory.
gopher and nntp via serial terminals
The allegations of bad faith on Reddit's end will make the upcoming subreddit protest shutdowns more spicy.
That's why I would not consider investing energy/money/time in developing an app/application/client of a proprietary third-party platform: they can lock you out any time, sunset the platform (seen with Google Search API) or decide to compete with you (seen with Facebook regarding games).
Open standards, open-source based or decentralized platforms, or your own platform are the way to go (I'm talking here from the dev perspective, not from the end user perspective - but proprietary sites are equally annoying for end users when they get discontinued. Making a one-time exeption to my self-hosting preference, I had a blog hosted at Posterous until Twitter acquired them and they shut down).
I could see this as a Digg moment for reddit. They've made no effort to put out quality software of their own and will kill some of the best experiences for using Reddit.
It really feels as though all of the API pricing issues across the industry are signaling a clear ending to the rosey eyed 2nd tech boom that began with the invention of smart phones and social media.
I remember when my software career started in earnest back in 2011. There was a lot of positive energy in the air. A whole generation of people was discovering the joys of engineering and sharing their efforts and creativity through various forms of open access.
Now, it feels like that's all gone. The spirit of generosity and altruism in the tech industry is much diminished. It seems we have an odd combination of C-suite mental illness and activist investors to thank for that.
Good, anything you share now is sucked up by ChatGPT and then that knowledge is instantly shared with everyone in the world. Let’s go back to staying private if we want to keep our jobs.
Ugh, this is the end of reddit for me.
I didn’t think I was able to quit social media addictions, but I’ve successfully ignored Twitter since Elon took over. I’m confident I can do the same with reddit, although it will be much harder.
I suppose all I really need is like some sort of curated RSS instead.
I am waiting with great anticipation to see how they spin this in the AMA tomorrow. Anything short of Steve editing the posts himself and I will be disappointed /s. To the Reddit and Steve apologists, you will be on the wrong side of history.
Are they doing an AMA tomorrow, and is it just for the mods?
I don’t see what they have to gain by doing an AMA, no matter what they say the comments are going to be scathing and people will be sharply looking for anything misspoken to jump on.
It would seem so, but it is hard right now to parse what is fact and what is fiction so definitely look into it yourself. But I totally agree, pretty dim to think they can somehow talk their way out of this. People were upset before, the blackouts, etc. but now this has taken on another tone and I doubt it will cool off by tomorrow. Honestly, I am loving this schadenfreude!
I never thought Reddit would be so aggressive with their community after how poorly things went for Twitter.
Why not roll out these changes slower and ramp up fees over time? Why not give app developers time to adapt?
Apollo is written by one guy. Is it really fair to tell him to rewrite his business model and make significant changes to his app in just a month or two?
It's quite simple, make API access conditional on having reddit premium. Reddit get $50 a year and the apps can continue - although the userbase would be significantly lower.
Not a high enough tax for management, it appears.
Reddit is so unimaginative it's baffling.
10 million for Apollo is also a fucking steal. I mean fire your mobile team and buy Apollo for 10 million? WTF why is that not the obvious play here...
The problem as other stated is that a) Reddit doesn't think Apollo moves the needle on users (I disagree but whatever) b) Apollo users wouldn't want the value extraction that management wants to implement.
Yes, $10M is a fantastically low price even if they throw it away in a year.
Wow. That's a real bombshell. If everything he says is accurate (I haven't listened to the recordings, of course, but I'm going to assume his characterization of them is correct), then Reddit's behavior here is beyond the pale. Particularly them accusing him of making threats.
It's hard to see how Reddit can actually survive with this level of mismanagement.
It's totally unreasonable to expect you to make changes in 30 days. Consider app review time, that might not even be possible.
After you shutdown, can you turn Apollo into a site-specific browser? Like request reddit html, write a custom transformer to make it less bad, render with a safari webview, and push nav changes as views on the stack?
Unlikely, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn
I am done with Reddit.
What’s the next thing?
I've been using hackernews as a great alternative to reddit. When they shut off compact reddit I completely moved to HN.
But HN doesn't have communities. We need something that gives you lightweight bulletin boards (because that's what reddit replaced). I love HN, but it's really just a subreddit with its own website.
I've heard there's a terrific service out there that's a real sleeper. USENET, I think it's called.
Seems like things are currently migrating towards smaller, more closed communities. Things like Discord servers, any of the various services that popped up when Twitter went bad, invite-only chats on any of the various chat services, even web forums are still hanging around. Honestly can't say I'm sad about this transition, I tend to think smaller communities are healthier.
For me, both Twitter & Reddit require a not-inconsiderable effort to extract value while ignoring/digesting the annoyances.
Maybe fewer global social platforms and less time spent on them will do a lot of people more good.
I'm guessing Reddit gets less global and ubiquitous, in the same way Twitter is more of a slice of a niche crowd now too. Maybe that's okay.
Tildes.net is similar but not a replacement
Do you have any invites?
I think Tildes is a good secondary alternative to Reddit, It was developed by a Reddit intern and RiD developer.
Are you open to sharing an invite?
There's a pinned thread in /r/tildes where you can ask for an invite, and they'll give you one after a cursory look at your reddit profile.
Sure.
~current Tilderino
Maybe I'm not cool enough, but how does this translate into an invite? I'm on tildes.net right now.
Had to read the source code. Go to /register
I assume someone already snapped it; since no permutations of the above work
Anyone else willing to share a few?
Do you guys really expect a for profit company to offer free API access to 3rd parties, that offer a better experience with no ads, bypassing their revenue stream, and making their own site and apps look terrible in comparison?
I've always been shocked Reddit allowed this at all. No other major player that owns a platform- FB, instagram, Google, etc. offers this either.
I don't like it either but it makes perfect sense. You could even make the argument that not doing this would mean Reddit employees aren't doing their jobs, and aren't looking out for the company.
> Do you guys really expect a for profit company to offer free API access to 3rd parties, that offer a better experience with no ads, bypassing their revenue stream, and making their own site and apps look terrible in comparison?
I certainly don't expect this, and if you read the linked article, Christian didn't either. His primary issue was that he was only given 30 days to find a solution, which wasn't a reasonable timeline. His secondary issue was the pricing of the API access. Having a paid API in the first place didn't make his list of concerns.
Reddit is within their rights to make whatever commercial decision they want- concerns of anyone else be damned.
And everyone else is well within their rights to call their decision what they want. So what exactly is the point of stating this?
What's your point here? No one is saying reddit is not allowed to make this decision, people are arguing that it was a stupid decision. Its absolutely a company right to shit on their bed and hurt their customers, just as much as it is for said consumers to respond and criticise.
Indeed, they are within their rights to make decisions, including questionable[1] ones. Which is what the conversation is about – not if they can be doing this, but if they should be doing this.
[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5yq7q/judge-affirms-jack-do...
That applies to consumers as well. Killing off a product that added value for people is going to make them upset. Are we supposed to be praising Reddit in your view?
The developers aren't asking for a free API, just one that is justified based on reddit's costs.
The problem is people think of this in terms of "cost to keep the server on that serves an API request" and not the opportunity cost for ad engagement that actually makes the business viable.
Sure, but there's also the value that the users create using these apps, and drive engagement to reddit. Not to mention the insane amount of volunteer mod work, many of who use unofficial apps.
> Sure, but there's also the value that the users create using these apps, and drive engagement to reddit.
This is what people said about third-party Twitter apps, yet all of those power users and brands are still there, except the ones who are ideologically opposed to Elon (and were leaving anyway). It doesn't really seem to have made a difference.
> It doesn't really seem to have made a difference.
Twitter is worth around a third of what Elon paid for it. I'm assuming you're happy to just assert that 2/3 of it's lost value is just those "who were leaving anyway" and changes like those to third party apps had no impact?
It’s mostly worth a third of what he paid for it because he paid way too much. But the actual value it’s lost is mostly around content moderation decisions and Elon’s own posting, not third-party apps.
Also the opportunity cost of optics… why is the overall user experience so much better with these apps?
Frankly I'm surprised they didn't nip this in the bud years ago. Hindsight is 20/20, I guess.
Reddit’s censorship of r/the_donald was a huge moment in the splintering of political discourse into disconnected silos. It used to be you could go to the front page of Reddit and see what each side of American politics was pushing that day. People on both the left and right would be confronted with news that otherwise they might not see in their personal echo chambers. That all died when spez and co first “quarantined” (ironic jargon choice) then ultimately killed T_D. Truly a sad chain of events. PS. T_D still lives at patriots.win fwiw.
The problem with this is that the discourse in those kinds of sites are way too extreme. People who have been kicked off of Reddit and want to _only_ engage in that topic tend to be fanatical. We need companies to embrace _both_ sides.
No, you could see what the_donald was pushing. They were constantly manipulating things to be as over-represented on the front page as they could. This is why they got canned.
Indeed. I despise everything right wing, but I'm also not a fan of what Reddit has become as of late. On the larger subs there are plenty of threads where somebody asks "can somebody give their perspective on why [XX issue that usually right wing people complain about]". Followed by a storm of progressive commenters stating a variation of "because if you care about XX you're insane/you're a nazi/etc". That makes up about the top 300 top level comments. If you scroll past that, there are hundreds of comments from people that intended to actually answer the question and provide nuance, but, but those comments are all deleted by the mods. It's mostly a progressive echo chamber nowadays.
If you want a website where radical centrisim is the word, check out rdrama.net
This move by reddit is so crazy I can't help but wonder if they're lighting all this user goodwill on fire in the hopes of improving their negotiating stance with folks using reddit for other things (like OpenAI and others training models), and that they're thinking they'll be able to change API pricing for Apollo and others once they have those big contracts locked in. It seems incredibly risky upfront, and with hindsight right now, totally untenable if that's the game they're playing.
Can someone please record a video of using this app? I'd love to have a record of what we are losing.
Haven't used the app myself, but the website[0] seems to have a trailer video: https://youtu.be/MKbPZVDg-Z8 Apparently posted 5 years ago, though.
I would if it wasnt only available on iPhone
Oh! I was wondering how I never even heard of Apollo until this debacle. It being only for lockdown platforms explains.
> I would if it wasnt only available on iPhone
That makes sense to me. I was also wondering how come I had never heard of this app.
It also changes the calculus significantly: how many users does Apollo have, and how many users does Reddit have?
Reddit just might not even notice the content produced by Apollo users.
Hacker News will have to do because my Reddit experience was 99.99999% Apollo. Can’t stand the website. Never would have used it without Apollo on iOS. I know there are much serious things in the world than an app shutting down but this is truly the end of an era.
I'm confused about the details, maybe someone can clarify.
The OP says Reddit claims they were being blackmailed (which clearly they weren't) but it's the talk around opportunity cost that I don't understand, especially as related alleged blackmail.
1) It would cost Apollo $20m to continue operating, and somehow Apollo, not able to afford it and offering to just kind of walk away from the app constitutes Blackmail?
2) The $20m opportunity cost claims. I don't get this. The new actual cost to Apollo would be $20m, that's not an opportunity cost for Reddit. The opportunity cost for reddit is really just the resources & attention it takes them to keep the API system running, which is presumable far, far, below the sticker price they will be charging 3rd parties per 1,000 API calls.
3) In general, I don't understand how any 3rd party has leverage to threaten or blackmail Reddit. Sure some people prefer to use 3rd party apps & services, but I'm assuming (is this a bad assumption?) that if those apps and services went away that a large majority of of their users would simply switch to native reddit options rather than stop consuming & interacting with content they enjoy.
1) You're correct in saying it clearly doesn't constitute Blackmail.
2) No, the opportunity cost for Reddit is the users using Apollo to browse Reddit as opposed to official channels. This prevents Reddit from effectively monetizing those users, because they cannot display them ads, track their usage habits, and all the other things social media companies do to monetize their user base. The reality is that using a user browsing via Apollo costs Reddit directly (server costs) and indirectly (missed opportunities aka opportunity cost).
3) Reddits bet is that the majority of the user base will be retained. The vocal outcry suggests they will not. Only time will tell which side is right. The other point many 3rd party advocates are making is that moderation tools, the majority of which are considered 3rd party apps, will also stop working. This will most likely significantly degrade the quality of many subreddits. People aren't necessarily angry saying "we demand our equal share", but rather "this is really short sighted and you're going to kill what we care about".
Thanks, that clarifies a bit and helps me put this post in a proper perspective
I believe it was the phrasing of "going quietly." I think they thought he meant that he would slander(?) them if they did not pay the $10M. But of course that misunderstanding was, one sentence later, resolved, so Reddit going back and treating that like a threat is simply a lie.
Ah, okay. I'm still not sure why Reddit would consider it blackmail for a 3rd party developer to say "If you make it impossible for me to run my app/service I will be very angry and tell people about it and say you're bad for doing it"
I mean, that's not blackmail that's just, like, normal behavior for two groups that have a dispute.
Yeah, the whole thing really doesn't make a lot of sense at face value which is why the logical conclusion is "Reddit lied to try to justify their API decision by making him look bad."
I've been getting MORE porn spam on Reddit than I ever have before...
I've blocked 2 dozen accounts in as many days.
It feels like Reddit is about to implode.
Apollo saved my Reddit usage years ago. It has too many nice to have features to list. I suppose off to Discord I go. Most subreddits have a discord parallel. More than ever it feels like all of the major platforms are ripe for disruption. They are filled with aggressive hostile ads, algorithms set to engagement, and closed experiences.
Just seems like that network effect is too powerful. Look at all the attempts to create a new Twitter (or Reddit for that matter) over the past couple years.
I suspect that these efforts keep failing in part because people never needed Twitter and Reddit in the first place. Leaving one social network doesn't imply that a person will join another. I didn't open accounts on similar platforms after leaving Reddit, Facebook, Snapchat, and Twitter over the years.
This is the equivalent of Firefox closing down in 2005 and everyone being forced to use Internet Explorer. Reddit has been adding nothing but annoying clutter to their official app.
One thing which is unclear to me and I would really appreciate some perspective: do you think they designed the new API pricing with intention to have developers actually using/paying it or was it just a PR way to say "we are closing the API for 3rd party devs"?
Remember when FB made changes and switched to timeline views. Everyone was saying this is the death of Facebook. Then in the next earnings call, they showed average engagement and time spent more than doubled.
Everyone boycotting reddit is all talk and no hat. They will still be on reddit.
You mean the same Facebook that no one under 30 uses?
This is false equivalency. And since then Facebook has deteriorated and its usage has plummeted.
Yeah, the way people stop using a platform is usually by slowly losing interest and visiting less and less.
People making dramatic announcements of departure, on the other hand, are actually extremely engaged with the platform and rarely make good on their promise.
You don’t see platforms being this user hostile and staying relevant for very long. Look at what happened with Facebook, for example. People are moving away from Reddit these days anyway, with Discord being the most common place to start a new community.
Looking at #s on the app store / play store and it looks like RIF / Apollo usage is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual reddit app. I doubt this has any meaningful impact after all is settled. Just seems like a loud vocal minority.
Yes, but all the high-value content on reddit is created by a minority of users. The people who moderate reddit are a minority of users. The issue for reddit is that these are the same people as your "loud vocal minority" who use third-party apps. You know, the ones that do the work generates Reddit's value in the first place.
Are you theorizing that majority of content is posted through these third party apps? I can definitely see it's plausible that the content quality/quantity could drop. But if the average user is using the official app, will they notice or care? Doubt it. As for mods, I think there will always be people that will want to mod, using whatever way is available.
I'm pessimistic that it will matter, the power users will leave, the quality of content will drop, and the vast majority of users will be perfectly happy with the low quality content-slop that is left.
Does anyone have the least bit of business experience? This is outrageous. I have not followed this at all but how can everyone here be so biased against Steve?
If you listen to the call this Christian guy literally said: "if your opportunity cost is really $20 million, you cut me a cheque for $10 million dollars and we can both skip off into the sunset"
A joke, seriously? Why on earth would you say this in what was audibly a very tense, high-stakes call and negotiation for both sides? There is no excuse whatsoever.
Very funny, because one week later he dishes reddit and Steve the biggest shitstorm in the entire history of the site - which it would be even without all the blackmail call drama. Hello? Costing and causing surely 10s of millions in damage.
Can we appreciate that even if this Christian guy is just so genuinely ignorant, selfish and toxic without intentionally meaning any harm that at least Steve certainly was fully aware of all the implications, the seriousness and non-funny nature of the conversation?
He had and has every reason and right to feel blackmailed. The only interpretation one can take away from Christian's behavior now is that Steve had better taken him up on the "joke". Clearly, the PR disaster could have been avoided by paying up instead of accepting the cost and reacting exactly as Steve did - in the call Steve rejected the offer and notion of doing any deals. The way he apologised is what you do to save the other person's face and keep the door open for the relationship. It's not what you literally think and mean.
Steve was never going to go back to his team and say "silly me! I'm such an idiot for getting this idea into my head. That he's threatening us because he's about to shut down, cause maximum damage on the way out and stage a user revolt. When he was just trying to entertain us with a funny joke about us buying him out for $10 million. When we have no legal or moral obligation to do so. I love him, he's so funny, glad I apologised on the spot.".
If anything, one should pay some respect to Steve, not taking up the blackmail and steering head on into this mess. Good luck!
Did you listen to the same call? He immediately clarified the statement. And uh, I would be arrogant too if I was doing the job of an entire team of people who had the audacity to pretend otherwise. Pay respect to Steve? Jeez man, don't simp too hard there, it might seem like you are biased or something. I see your account is an hour old . . . Steve, is that you?
Wow, I thought I was taking crazy pills, THIS
I expected this to be a top comment, instead its buried 1000 comments deep, posted by a new account and down voted, just wow.
Its been years since I've used Reddit and never heard of this Apollo app, so I'm not rooting for anyone, but c'mon, what's the deal with the Apollo dev audio and mob'esque "deal you can't refuse" skit: 'you cut me a cheque for $10 million dollars and we can both skip off into the sunset', this alone sounds legally actionable even in a banana republic.
And yet, they're rallying for the Apollo dev on this entire thread and trashing Reddit's CEO. As despicable as they want to frame Reddit's CEO present and past actions, this dev sounds just as -- if not more -- despicable.
The only thing I agree with you on is how Christian brought up Reddit acquiring Apollo. He didn’t give that topic the right amount of seriousness, but besides for that Steve comes off really poorly here.
He uses heart emojis on his reddit posts. It's so obvious how it's insincere.
Is this thread being sunk by HN, or is it a natural product of the default algorithm? Because it had far, far more upvotes than any thread above it (currently ranked #20), even those they were submitted earlier than this one.
It’s a basic problem for platform rot that the client is usually specific to a network today.
Consider the following: AOL instant messenger, ICQ, Paltalk, Tivejo, MSN Messenger, Microsoft Messenger, MSN Messenger, Skype, Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, 11 different messaging apps from Google, Zoom, Go2Meeting, WebEx, Microsoft Lynq, Skype for Business, Slack, iMessage, CuSeeMe, Discord, …
A user looking superficially at those applications might notice very little difference or progress between them, the one thing they have in common is they are not compatible with each other, many of them are tied into a proprietary ecosystem (AOL, Facebook, …) and a major difference is they are tied into different proprietary ecosystem.
Such an app always follows a scenario like “You should install Skype and contact me, unlike Paltalk it really works these days”. You try it and you’re like “Wow! This really works!” but after a few years it becomes less reliable and buggier than it was when it started. Some new application comes along and is in a honeymoon period where it knows it has to actually work in order to add new users while the old broken app can coast because they figure nobody can disrupt their two-sided market. History shows that the old app really will deteriorate to the point where the incumbent advantage is lost and a new app will be better…. For a while.
What amazes me is that everybody from users to the app makers are stuck in this cycle and seem to have very little insight into it.
It’s a reason why you need a service that is separate from the client and have to have competition for both. Unfortunately users seem to violently opposed to this and open messaging platforms like XMPP have only caught on with military and law enforcement users.
The “fediverse” is a light of hope in this respect, what you learn when you get involved is it is not just Mastodon but there are many different systems that are inter operating. I wish the EU would take the problem seriously and just legislate interoperation between messaging apps, I mean, you can call an Android user from an iPhone, a Verizon customer can send a text to an AT&T customer, it is long past the time when you should be able to send a Slack user a message from Facebook messenger.
>Unfortunately users seem to violently opposed to this and open messaging platforms like XMPP have only caught on with military and law enforcement users.
I don't think it's the protocol users have the issue with, it's that generally to get the best out of it you need to run your own server and nobody wants to run their own server.
I run my own server and don't want to run a server...
What did everyone think of that call?
I'm not a client-facing person (a developer) so I might have been tongue in cheek myself as well. Not sure how any of that sounded threatening though...
Christian came off somewhat flippantly and didn’t sound particularly experienced, but overall I trust his account of things. The reddit CEO seems like a weirdo to me.
You can hear the frustration in his voice, I recognize that tone very well :)
He 1000% was threatening them. He asked for 10 million dollars to go away quietly, meaning not use his leverage on reddit (who all just took at face value that he's a poor victim). They didn't accept so now he's selectively releasing his secret phone recording and being very aggressive.
He very clearly is being sarcastic, because he knows the 20 million claim is bullshit. He's basically friendly teasing them because if it really WERE that high, then buying Apollo for 10 million might be a good idea, but it isn't and it's all bullshit, so he knew they wouldn't. That's why he says "It's mostly just a joke"
Hmm, maybe that's believable.
I am surprised nobody has coded a HTML/JS/CSS -> API thingamagic..
Assuming the website is public, allows login using standard JS/HTML and provides results in JS/HTML/CSS: with all the hype around GPT4 etc, wouldn't it be 'easy' to catch the bullet using some converter? And keep deploying a machine to catch up with another machine that keeps changing its "API" (i.e. the look and feel of the website in this case)
I am only partially joking.
How much profit does Reddit make?
I asked Bard and this is what I got:
Reddit has not publicly released its financial information, so it is difficult to say exactly how much profit the company earns. However, we can make some estimates based on the company's revenue and expenses.
In 2021, Reddit generated $350 million in revenue, primarily from advertising. The company also has a premium membership program that generates around $17 million in revenue. Reddit's expenses are estimated to be around $200 million, which includes costs for salaries, marketing, and operations.
Based on this information, we can estimate that Reddit's profit in 2021 was around $150 million. However, it is important to note that this is just an estimate, and the actual amount of profit could be higher or lower.
Reddit is a growing company, and its revenue is expected to continue to grow in the coming years. This growth will likely lead to an increase in the company's profit. However, it is also possible that Reddit's expenses will increase as the company grows, which could offset some of the increase in revenue.
Overall, Reddit is a profitable company, and its profit is expected to continue to grow in the coming years.
Can’t Apollo be open-sourced and the tokens of the original app be used?
I’d absolutely donate on a monthly basis.
He’d open sourced his Achoo app in the past. All it led to was copycats pretending they are not copycats. No attribution and the whole nine yards. If you google it, there still might be remnants of the incident. So I wouldn’t hold out hope on Apollo, rightfully so.
You'd likely have to enter an API agreement with Reddit, and it's unlikely they'd be willing to run you through the sales funnel and write up a contract just sell you what's effectively a $3/mo API plan.
That said, open sourcing the app would be great to archive it for posterity.
> sell you what's effectively a $3/mo API plan.
For a single user, the API is free. But every user would have to apply for a key, and there is no guarantee they’d get one.
If you didn't have a need to post, I would assume Apollo could be update to allow one to specify a Teddit/libreddit instance's API (which would act as a caching proxy for reddit). You'd be able to get a similar experience without relying on Reddit directly.
Or adapted for another platform. Open source UI means you need basically the database adapter to set up a clone. Betcha a lot of current Apollo users would swing onto that new platform.
I’m done. I deleted my 13 year old reddit account. I won’t be back even if they backpedal. Mind bogglingly incompetent. Sorry to any of the good folks working there.
That's sad.
I started using the mobile site after Reddit bought Alien Blue, and I saw how the user experience gradually deteriorated to push their mobile app.
I occasionally used Apollo as an alternative, and I can understand the sentiment of the users. As a reluctant iOS user, Apollo was one of the things that kept me on the platform.
Seeing the direction thar Reddit has been taking, I hope a new platform comes to take its place with the focus on discussions/community.
I haven't seen much discussion in defense of Reddit protecting their content from LLM training competitors. This to me is why they have to crack down on their API, it's no longer just SEO links back, it's training someone else's models on your content and community for free. This to me is the elephant. It's horrible how they treat their app community, but this is a massive problem for them.
That's already happened; if that were the reason, they'd be trying to close the barn after the horses have already crossed into another state.
it's not a one time scrape, but a continual tuning
Even if we ignore the idea of just scraping the site, how much would it cost an API user to grab most posts just once? Is it actually enough to stop anyone?
>Will you sell Apollo?
>Probably not. Maybe if the perfect buyer came along who thought they could turn Apollo into something cool
I get that it's something he built and loves, but if someone shows up with $1m and the alternative is to shut it down and get nothing. Then take the money even if it's not the "perfect buyer" and it won't be "cool".
No one is going to buy it, the API pricing makes it impossible to turn a profit.
I wouldn't be so sure. The app has been the talk of Reddit and many tech circles for a few weeks. Many are saying that without Apollo they won't use Reddit anymore. So if someone were to buy it and say "The same Apollo you love is now $9/month" I bet they could retain a number of users, specifically because there won't be other competitors (all competitors will be in same boat wrt to API pricing and not allowing ads).
I've heard these new API fees would result in monthly subscription numbers between $2 and $5/month. I'd pay $5 to keep my third party app (which isn't Apollo). I fully believe that _most_ users aren't interested in paying these fees. But I'm skeptical that there are so few that _none_ of these 3rd party apps will stay afloat. I've got to believe that if none of the current big players want to stay in, someone else will come along soon.
Presumably if someone were to offer to buy it it's because they intend to stand up a different back-end and try and start a new platform?
There is one obvious candidate to buy it... but that was shot down as some kind of threat.
Is there a legal reason why they can't just scrape reddit and forget about API? It would be the app users doing the scraping.
Or just clone whatever API the official Reddit mobile client is using. As long as it's offered for free to the official app, there's no technical way to stop another app from using the same API. The best they could do is bundle some private keys in the official app, but ultimately anything on the client can be reverse engineered and cloned by another app.
The only solution Reddit has to that is complaining to Apple, who can reject the third party app from the App Store. There's precedent for this with things like "unofficial" Pokémon Go clients. Apple is usually happy to remove them. But I'm not sure it's ever gone to trial - it would certainly be interesting, given case law around APIs like with Oracle v Google, or LinkedIn v HiQ.
I don't think even cloning anything would be necessary. They will still allow free tier of 100 requests/minutes if authenticated so why not let people use their own tokens? https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/api_update_e...
The Reddit mobile app has a few big issues for me:
1. When I click a post, sometimes it goes to a different post's detail page. The only way to remedy this is to refresh and visit the sub directly via Reddit search function, or restart the app.
2. Video player sometimes just doesn't play the video no matter how often you click "play", similar fix as above.
3. Google search is better at searching Reddit than Reddit search.
Very annoying, but I still use it and never felt the need to use Apollo. To slightly defend Reddit, Apollo is just a client, and I assume they bring nothing else to the table. Apollo team should have had the foresight to see this coming years ago. Reddit can't be blamed for trying to monetize their data. If I had to choose between Reddit and Apollo, obviously I'd choose Reddit because Reddit is where the data lives.
>Apollo team should have had the foresight to see this coming years ago.
Isn't this your fault for building a service reliant on someone else? To a certain extent, yes. However, I was assured this year by Reddit not even that long ago that no changes were planned to be made to the API Apollo uses, and I've made decisions about how to monetize my business based on what Reddit has said. January 26, 2023 Reddit: "So I would expect no change, certainly not in the short to medium term. And we're talking like order of years." Another portion of the call: January 26, 2023 Reddit: "There's not gonna be any change on it. There's no plans to, there's no plans to touch it right now in 2023. Me: "Fair enough." Reddit: "And if we do touch it, we're going to be improving it in some way."
It's a small thing, but if anyone would like to support accessibility, please try setting the official Reddit app's font size to as large as it can go.
Then leave the app a review based on how well it compares to the system's accessibility font sizes which should go up to 310%.
I’m curious about how this works: it Apollo is going to be unable to operate at the new prices, would it be possible to release a version of the App that takes the user’s API key instead? And then the user can pay for Reddit API access directly?
> The information they did provide however was: we will be moving to a paid API as it's not tenable for Reddit to pay for third-party apps indefinitely (understandable, agreed), so they're looking to do equitable pricing based in reality.
So far so good. Speaking facts, no opinion, no bias.
> The price they gave was $0.24 for 1,000 API calls. I quickly inputted this in my app, and saw that it was not far off Twitter's outstandingly high API prices, at $12,000, and with my current usage would cost almost $2 million dollars per month, or over $20 million per year.
No bulk discount?
I guess it's in Reddit's best interest to have people on the official Reddit app in the first place.
I don't get this blackmail thing at all. What leverage would Christian have anyways. It's not that when he shuts Apollo down every of its users will quit Reddit and when it comes to bad publicity, the damage is already done.
As the saying goes - never rely on someone else's platform for your livelihood. This was always bound to happen and it was just a matter of time. Reddit needs to eliminate all third party clients that block their ads and siphon potential ad revenue in order to be financially attractive to investors.
For the Redditors that laughed and criticized Twitter when they capped user counts in third party apps and raised their API usage fees, karma was waiting with patience to return the favor.
I view what Reddit did as an opportunity. Even though Mastodon was a spectacular failure, I could see a Reddit alternative that uses the federated model that Mastodon does.
Sad news for Apollo users. Reddit's API pricing change hit hard. With estimated $20M annual bill, it's impossible to maintain service. Users, consider not refunding to support the developers in these trying times.
Lemmy is a great (federated) reddit alternative. If anyone's looking to migrate from reddit to lemmy, this guide may help you find and subscribe-to subreddits across the lemmyverse
* https://tech.michaelaltfield.net/2023/06/11/lemmy-migration-...
Seems foolish to build your company to be entirely dependent on the generosity of free API access, then rage quit when you have to start paying instead of, you know, charging your customers more.
Also I see no evidence that he was accused of blackmail. A linked comment in the Reddit thread states:
>Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
The linked comment is from "BuckRowdy", apparently not even an employee of Reddit and that is not "blackmail". To me that's "hey, acquihire me and my company for 10 million and then you don't have to do the work!"
A note about api pricing: I imagine many of these social networks will give themselves a reality check in terms of true value to their users, after years of everything for free. I believe there are pretty, pretty hard times ahead of FB, Twitter et al., once reality truly hits. And from what seems to be the disparity of perception in terms of api pricing/value at reddit, they too. 20 million.. lol. I mean, who will be even able to pay that? Same at Twitter's api pricing. For many, like it appears to be the case with Apollo, it is not even an viable alternative.
I just deleted Apollo from my phone. Rip the bandaid off now, rather than wait until the 30th. In place of the icon on my home screen I put Kindle. Seems fitting.
I deleted twitter a couple of months ago.
This feels like a positive move for me.
Given Apollo made WWDC in a few places including in Vision Pro, perhaps someone at Apple might consider just acquiring Apollo and pay the yearly API fees to Reddit.
Over time Apple could then perhaps make the Reddit clone.
It is a shame it came to this. The primary way I use Reddit is via Apollo so I guess I won’t be using Reddit as much.
On the web I still use old.reddit.com but I can see them killing that off sooner or later.
Why is there NEVER any talk of adversarial interoperability? Explicitly maintained and versioned APIs were a nicety, but not a necessity! Especially in this day and age of continually pushed code updates. Why just throw away Apollo's popularity and go dark, rather than simultaneously diversifying by adding support for open platforms that appreciate users (eg Mastodon) while also mitigating the damage Reddit can do by continuing to access the site like every other HTTP user agent?
I use infinity app, might as well leave reddit from mobile :/ I sometimes use Twitter from mobile browser, the experience is ok but for Reddit, it's absolutely terrible.
As a redditor from 2008 that still uses it too much every day, I kind of hope it dies and stops sucking up the attention from good ideas on how to run a similar smorgasboard of a site.
I'll repost this link as it seems so very strange to me with all of the complaints these days about bots and fake accounts pushing narratives that everyone seems to forget Reddit was built on fake accounts replying to each other: It's so gross.
How Reddit Got Huge: Tons of Fake Accounts
https://www.vice.com/en/article/z4444w/how-reddit-got-huge-t...
A lesson to be learned. Do not build your entire business on someone else's API.
The outcome was unsurprising and it is unfortunate. But this is why third-party apps are always at a disadvantage. The same happened with Twitter and they made that clear and now so did Reddit.
Like I said before in [0]
"Either the API gets blocked for third-party clients, or you purchase a high price for it."
The tired “don’t build on someone else’s api” lesson doesn’t apply to this case because Apollo is specifically a method for accessing Reddit: Apollo wouldn’t exist without Reddit. The outcome here is sad, yes, but the author built a wildly successful app and made great money for close to a decade: a disappointing end does not discredit the journey.
(Ps. your obsession with citing yourself is one of the worst parts of reading HN)
They also cite themselves within that citation. That second citation contains a citation also written by them. Citationception!
> (Ps. your obsession with citing yourself is one of the worst parts of reading HN)
Good. I don't care.
It is a priceless prediction that became true. Hence how unsurprising this is.
Maybe for Reddit and Apollo case, this is alright & makes sense. But at the risk of sounding pedantic, don't generalize it.
Most of our commodity software is built & deployed by packages, APIs and frameworks we have very little control on. We just hope things don't break/change as drastically and we can modularize our projects as much as we could, to bear some shock or disruption. Unlikely anyone can build & maintain consumer grade softwares ab initio
The closer you are to the final customer the better is your chance to bill for the value you deliver (standing on a fragile cobbled together set of third party components). The short term rewards strongly favor relying on others. The business dynamic compounds this as it places a premium on first movers. Going against this dynamic must be carefully considered and only makes sense in isolated cases (where it is the winning move).
Disagree. (In the generalized sense) You cannot extricate yourself entirely and call it a winning move, unless your business is at a scale as large as Dropbox moving out from AWS ecosystem.
I still feel no matter how natively one tries to build products - they cannot build everything. You cannot create CI/CD, monitoring, frontend, containerization, and cloud services just for your software or service. Those depend on some platform API which you won't create just for your product. Short or long business value - unless one becomes a major player with several software engineering teams building a product ecosystem - other people's APIs and frameworks will be used. And that is perfectly fine. That is how good products should be -using nice building blocks. No need to reinvent the wheel everytime.
> Do not build your entire business on someone else's API
For iPhone apps this isn't really an option in the first place.
Or do, but have a contract in place that ensures longevity. Of course not applicable in this case, but just addressing the generality of the statement, "Do not build your entire business on someone else's API."
Just imagine what'll happen when sideloading eventually makes its way to the US - the less-illegal sister of piracy, scraping, is going to make a huge resurgence.
Which other api's should he be using?
Or are you just saying third party clients shouldn't be considered viable to begin with?
Too bad you are being downvoted. You are rather accurate.
Sounds like Apollo has a nice frontend with a proven API behind it. Reimplementing the API on a different backend couldn’t be _that_ hard, at least for a POC. Supabase anyone?
Can anyone in the know illuminate us on whether the assertion that the new pay scale for the API makes all of these apps impossible to implement? Is this truly the case or is it more a matter of treating the remote server as essentially free and not working to retain all previously seen information to avoid duplicate calls?
Some RSS readers pull data per user. Others aggregate across their entire userbase, so that the most popular feeds are only read once (or once per data center)
> with my current usage would cost almost $2 million dollars per month, or over $20 million per year
This isn't the first story like this but the prices that are being calculated are absolutely outrageous.
I have a feeling Redit just figured they have cornered this market already and the AI training that's being done is definitely a good reason to start paying for the API.
But there are ways to offer "genuine enrichment integrations apps" a particular license.
This flat rate is just not tenable for most if not all!
I’m calling it now, the Reddit devs are already hard at work ripping off all the cool shit that makes Apollo 1000% better than their crappy app. Christian better LAWYER UP.
Given how terrible their ux is they either don’t want something good or are incapable of it
Nah. They bought and then just killed a vastly superior mobile app (to their own thing) years ago with Alien blue. If they _wanted_ to get something better, they would have done it.
I've quit most of the social media like Facebook, I'm not active on Twitter or LinkedIn. But I've always struggled to quit Reddit.
But now, partially because of this (and partially because they've intentionally made the mobile web experience unusable over the last few years), I decided to quit Reddit a few days ago.
And it feels great. I've spent the time that I would have wasted on Reddit tackling my TO-READ list of books instead. And I feel much happier for it.
I hope someone has been working on a Reddit replacement and is close to ready. This is Reddit's Digg moment and the time is now to market yourself as a place to go.
He needs to sue Steve Huffman personally for defamation. Steve has been a known lying snake for years and it's long past due that somebody make him pay for it.
> 50,000 yearly subscribers at $10 per year
Wow. Now I know why reddit is tightening the noose. Third party developers making bank feeding off of the firehose that is reddit API.
$10 a year doesn't cover the estimated $2.50 per user per month cost after the API changes go through (especially considering Apple's cut). That estimated cost is also substantially higher then the estimated revenue reddit gets per user.
The issue isn't that third party developers now have to pay for API access. That was a long time coming, and I don't know of anyone opposed to this. The issue is the price seems completely unreasonable, and the time frame is ridiculously short.
500k a year is not "making bank". To Reddit this is the cost of a couple of devs.
There is/was a Reddit ecosystem, it's not a zero sum game. It seems short-sighted.
Android's most popular Reddit app is called RIF (Reddit is fun). They will also be shutting down. The official app is so bad. Horrible decision by Reddit
I've found Lemmy to be a good reddit alternative. https://join-lemmy.org/
This guy should be done with Reddit and build his own API. Not an easy ask, I know, but if he’s got one of the preferred clients he’s not starting from zero.
Losing one of the best Apps on the app store is really heartbreaking. Although I'm hoping for Apollo to be open-sourced, it's probably unrealistic.
He should just make a new service and point the app at that.
There's already lemmy, a fediverse reddit alternative!
he should make his GUI work with that.
My account was 13 years old on Reddit. I just deleted it.
This sounds a lot like the whole Twitter issue where they messed with MFA, and ruined my ability to login anywhere other than a single laptop (that had an existing token).
So that fixed my Twitter addition - I just stopped using it.
The same will likely happen here - Reddit is going to find out that I'm happy querying for other users's content (from Google/Duck queries) but without Apollo, I'm probably not going to contribute.
This is absolutely nuts. The only reason I was still using Reddit was because of the Apollo app. Best of luck to you in the future Christian.
I use "rif is fun golden platinum" because it's simple and fast and I don't have to look at ads. I'll gladly pay Reddit _and_ rif to keep using that combination without ads. I'm certain whatever I pay Reddit to use their API through another app will be worth more to them than any ad revenue they could get from me, because that will be $0.
Also shutting down.
Reddit is a huge tree that casts lots of shade across the forest floor. It may or may not topple completely, but its pretty clear that in the next month at least many large branches are going to fall, opening up the canopy for new seedlings to grow.
Maybe we'll finally get some reddit competitors that aren't dominated by alt right blowhards.
Sad. Just bought Apollo in March. But no hard feelings.
Anyway, this will probably stop my Reddit consumption altogether.
Already deleted my account a while ago, because some discussions became too toxic for me. Stil enjoying to read there and Apollo made it really enjoyable, even better than rif is fun on Android.
Is there a good archive of previous Reddit content until now?
Funny how a history of categorically silencing certain viewpoints on a major discussion platform ultimately leads to more toxicity. Hmm...
Allowing toxic viewpoints wouldn't make the platform less toxic though.
Apollo should launch its own backend IMO, with a usable old.reddit style web interface and API access to other clients
One thing I dislike about using Reddit (At least when accessing the main page from a browser) is that I have to be logged into an account in order to sort comments.
Was this always a thing? I cannot remember if this was in the case in the past, and I don't really have a Reddit account that I actually log into ever.
> I quickly put together a small app where I could input the prices and it would output monthly/yearly cost, cost for free users, paid users, etc. so I'd be able to process the information immediately.
Next time this kind of situation comes up, I highly recommend using a spreadsheet.
> Six weeks later, they called to discuss pricing. I quickly put together a small app where I could input the prices and it would output monthly/yearly cost, cost for free users, paid users, etc. so I'd be able to process the information immediately.
Spreadsheets.. (cough, cough)
If anybody has suggestions on where those of us taking part in the mass exodus can go, I’m all ears….
can Apollo just switch to supporting Lemmy.ml? That would be nice their UI kinda sucks at the moment.
You mean Lemmy in general? Lemmy.ml is just one of many Lemmy servers. Though there's some discussion coming up on how things are going in Lemmy regarding anything surrounding any criticism of China or Russia.
So far, there's been attempts to spin up new servers to mitigate issues on lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml while others are looking to Kbin which also federates with Lemmy but uses separate software.
Tapbots building a good app for Mastodon after Tweetbot got killed didn't suddenly push Mastodon into a top-tier social network.
No, but great third party apps for Mastodon definitely keep me using Mastodon more than I was with the official app. I'm sure it's a similar story for many others.
In the thread he said he rather let it die because he is already tired.
Probably not financially viable to do so.
Depends, could be a cart leading a horse situation.
As in: Maybe Lemmy has bad UX which is why it craters adoption.
Spending some resources on an Apollo version with Lemmy support sounds like a good idea assuming the dev time can be recouped.
Since Apollo is a paid app I think there's a more direct path to financial relevance than number of eyes in ads. :)
With the evidence collected and presented, I no longer support my viewpoint in the prior Reddit conversation about this here at HN, and I'm glad to see Christian taking steps to protect himself from Reddit by shutting down and walking away.
I am tempted to make an allusion that involves us, the making of foie gras and Reddit's ad-tech supremacy. With Steve being the guy who nails the ducks to the wood, forces the funnel down their throat and. . . well ya, you get the point.
I seriously don't understand why don't they buy them out, put on some tracking/whatever feature on Apollo and keep business as usual. I'm pretty sure the guy would take a reasonable offer instead of walking out empty handed.
Fully understand his stance, but it's a shame that such a great client will be shut down. If nothing else I'm sure making it paid-only and charging like $10/mo (from the current <$1) will still be a sustainable business model.
So, are mods at subreddits considering a move to alternatives like Lemmy?
Spreading the controll of subreddits over multiple domains and communities is probably the only insurance against ending up in a situation like we are witnessing with Reddit now.
Interesting to note that /u/spez hasn't posted anything on reddit for 10 months now: https://old.reddit.com/user/spez
Maybe he uses other users' accounts to express his opinions.
You mean the guy that manually edits posts in the Production DB that he disagrees with? Nah, no way he’d pull a stunt like that.
More reason to use RSS and blogs rather than a centralized politicised website
And my usage of reddit will close down as well.
So excited to have all that time back to be honest.
Why not just pay Reddit for their APIs? If you’re making $20M a year by building an app on their platform, it seems totally fair to pay them $10M a year for access. Do you expect AWS to host your stuff for free too?
It's unlikely the developer is making $20m+ a year. But only Reddit would know the real number.
Wow, 20th most upvoted HN post of all time!
Though my excitement about that does make it sound like I'm excited about Reddit's API changes... Social interactions are hard :/
What’s the viability (I guess legally?) of creating an app that bypasses the API and just scrapes Reddit and parses it to something roughly equivalent to what these 3rd party apps were doing?
I'd hazard to guess it'd be technically feasible with the old UI, but the new UI is such dogshit it doesn't even work in a browser where it's intended to be used half the time. Factor in A/B tests and the random UI tweaks and updates I'm sure they do everyday, I'd say probably not worth the effort.
Apollo wont be the only one. This is all for Reddit's greed and trying to increase margins before attempting to IPO. Looks like I'll finally be free of my reddit addiction on July 1st.
Really adds insult to injury having to read about it on reddit.
Why not provide a form in the app to enter your own reddit API token, then a user could register its own pseudo app while staying in the free quota, or use the official reddit app token ;)
I deleted my reddit account, a 10 yr old account - saw a bunch of others doing the same. Hopefully they get the message - better yet, hope they RECEIVE the message in the form of karma.
Can all the 3rd party apps join hands & create an alternative. It can be open source and users could fund it with donations. Probably a non-profit following a model like signal.
Frankly I'd rather see the apps just launch their own backend.
Interesting that the CEO is doing an AMA this Friday to discuss the API. It seems a bit strange to advertise this using a system-wide notification. I imagine most users don’t care.
Maybe I missed it, but why not just increase Apollo subscription rates to match the new pricing? It sounds like Apollo has a huge following that would be willing to support it. Take advantage of the hate train, tons of people would donate through a subscription model. It also sounds like these third party apps provide much better moderation interfaces, that could a selling point for the rates. Even if your subscriptions drop, it's still profit. I'm sure someone would be willing to do this, I don't understand the reason for not wanting to sell the app either. To me it sounds like the Apollo developer is undervaluing their position.
He says, in the FA, that the problem was that Reddit's prices kick in 1 month from now, but plenty of people have already pre-paid him for a year at the old price. So he loses 50k the first month, then 10% of his user base re-ups at the new price and month 2 he only loses 45k, then another 10% renew and he only loses 40k in month 3... not really a sustainable way to run a business.
Yea, I read that. I think that's a negative outlook. How many of those customers are sympathetic and would re-up at a new subscription rate? How many sympathetic new subscriptions could be generated? Refund current outstanding subs, and start a new sub, never take a hit. I mean, don't get me wrong, they can do whatever they want, it just doesn't seem like the dead end they make it.
Yeah, especially when he says he'll be giving pro-rated refunds when it shuts down anyways, so it's not like he can't/won't do that. I'm honestly a bit baffled by both sides' behavior in this situation.
The developer discusses this in the post so you did indeed miss it.
I'm sad about this. I use apollo daily, I really don't like the reddit app one bit. I guess I can still use the old.reddit.com for the 3-4 subreddits I still follow.
I have been browsing Reddit off and on since Digg lost their minds. Apollo was the only IOS app that was good quality for a long time, and it only got better as time passed.
This will cause me to move on from reddit to some other form of entertainment. probably reading more books/articles/etc.
I refuse to use their AWFUL first-party app.
Missed opportunity imho... they should have made apollo its own social network, maybe even a lemmy instance with rooms with identical names to some of the reddit ones.
The year is 2030, Reddit is now on it's 38th iteration. Steve and team have been slaving away, year after year, trying to come up with ideas on how to make the loads quicker, memes funnier, all while also pumping in 2000 metric tonnes of adverts/second. As it dawns on them that the app is somehow even slower, they frown. But Steve notices something out of the corner of his eye (despite all of the full page ads)... what could it be? It is a notification that ad-based revenue has gone UP!!! Everyone rejoices, Reddit is saved and Steve-and-Co have once again saved the world. Hooray.
I use Sync Pro on Android to browse reddit. That's going out next I guess. Just waiting for old.reddit.com to die so I can finally leave reddit all together.
Welp, there goes my Reddit usage. It's been a good run.
Wow, up until this point I thought the Reddit api drama was a bit tragic, but the inevitable endpoint of Reddit being a profit-driven corporation.
This is straight-up villainy.
I don't even use Apollo, so this shouldn't affect me in the slightest... but slandering folks? That's not cool.
Account deleted, noted the slander as the reason.
Just unbelievable. This is just sad. I have no other words.
Don’t be. Sometimes businesses such as Reddit must make bad decisions so that new players emerge. That’s exactly how it’s been, and people jump to alternatives when such platforms start acting out.
One thing I've noted is that online forums have expanded and consolidated a few times over the decades. We saw expansion to start, back with BBSes, then consolidation to FidoNet, Usenet, and services like AOL. Web forums took us into expansion. Link aggregators and meme sites moved toward some consolidation. Reddit is basically Usenet 2.0.
I suspect we may see another round of forum expansion again as people want to carve out their own niche communities again. We might not see Usenet 3.0 for a bit while we let people expand then let a new site come along and consolidate.
I agree with your take, I think that the current state of traditional social media will further drive people into those new forums. I am an example of such a person.
Such a clean app. It’s the only way I’ve been using Reddit the past two years. Time to move on… I stopped using it for more than entertainment anyway.
Simply join Lemmy (i.e. beehaw.org) or Kbin (kbin.social).
Both are buggy
RedditSync and RIF has also made the same announcements.
Everyone is looking for an alternative Twitter but Reddit is straight up becoming a corporate bad guy and no one is looking for an alternative Reddit.
At the time of writing this post is 2505 points 5 hrs in, and it is rapidly falling down the front page. Is this normal or is it being down ranked?
I never used Apollo, but does it use only one single API key?
Many OpenAI apps or services ask you to config your own key. Does this solves the API price problem?
The big problem Reddit has is it has relied on unpaid moderators to get to their revenue streams.
Piss off those people and you don’t have a business anymore.
Wait why is this consistently getting pushed down below things that have been up longer and way less relevance or upvotes?
Did Steve get this removed somehow from the front page? I can not find it unless I am missing something.
Ok, here are the major threads. Others?
r/ProgrammerHumor will be shutting down to protest Reddit's API changes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36249958 - June 2023 (233 comments)
Sync will shut down on June 30 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36248234 - June 2023 (88 comments)
Join our CEO tomorrow to discuss the API - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36246937 - June 2023 (73 comments)
Reddit is Fun will shut down on June 30th in response to Reddit API changes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36246398 - June 2023 (129 comments)
Reddit will exempt accessibility-focused apps from unpopular API pricing changes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36238630 - June 2023 (115 comments)
Reddit announces plan to lay off 90 workers as subreddits plan mass protest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36237285 - June 2023 (36 comments)
Reddit's Recently Announced API Changes, and the future of /r/blind - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36231016 - June 2023 (288 comments)
Ask HN: Anyone Building a Competitor to Reddit? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36225583 - June 2023 (134 comments)
Reddit to lay off about 5% of its workforce - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36223466 - June 2023 (30 comments)
Redditor creates working anime QR codes using Stable Diffusion - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36218281 - June 2023 (100 comments)
Reddit Laying Off About 90 Employees and Slowing Hiring Amid Restructuring - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36218090 - June 2023 (56 comments)
Reddit permanently bans account of user advocating Lemmy migration - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36215914 - June 2023 (298 comments)
Reddit’s plan to kill third-party apps sparks widespread protests - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36210805 - June 2023 (494 comments)
Demo: Fully P2P and open source Reddit alternative - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36203610 - June 2023 (230 comments)
iOS Reddit App Apollo's Developer Surprised by WWDC Callout - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36203277 - June 2023 (27 comments)
We're joining the Reddit blackout from June 12th to 14th - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36202277 - June 2023 (54 comments)
Ask HN: Reddit alternatives (that aren't Mastodon) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36199403 - June 2023 (30 comments)
Major Reddit communities will go dark to protest threat to third-party apps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36196343 - June 2023 (213 comments)
Tell HN: My Reddit account was banned after adding my subs to the protest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36192312 - June 2023 (218 comments)
Popular Subreddits are organizing a strike on 2023-06-12 b/c high API prices - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36187705 - June 2023 (172 comments)
Don't let Reddit kill 3rd party apps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36179853 - June 2023 (260 comments)
How Reddit became the enemy [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36177876 - June 2023 (154 comments)
Update 3: Reddit effectively kills off third party apps - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36170143 - June 2023 (23 comments)
Reddit sparks outrage after it demands app developer pay $20M/yr - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36166236 - June 2023 (76 comments)
Third-party Reddit apps are being crushed by price increases - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36162235 - June 2023 (416 comments)
Fidelity has cut Reddit valuation by 41% since 2021 investment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36157829 - June 2023 (85 comments)
Ask HN: Could Usenet get revived, to replace the soon to be unusable Reddit? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36153565 - June 2023 (149 comments)
Teddit – An alternative Reddit front-end focused on privacy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36144211 - May 2023 (93 comments)
Historical code from reddit.com - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36142971 - May 2023 (64 comments)
Had a call with Reddit to discuss pricing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36141083 - May 2023 (1292 comments)
Reddit's API Changes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36085422 - May 2023 (25 comments)
Is this aggregation manual and do you find it rewarding?
It’s probably macro-powered but mostly manual.
It’s work he has to do, otherwise those stories would overrun the front page. So the community finds it rewarding.
I'm leaning towards automated, given that it includes the article "Redditor creates working anime QR codes using Stable Diffusion".
That IPO will go really well with potential investors knowing the CEO will be on the legal hook for making libelous statements.
This is gonna kill reddit. I have no desire to use their horrific official clients. I'd rather just be done with it.
God money, I'll do anything for you ... God money, just tell me what you want me to ... God money, nail me up against the wall ... God money, don't want everything, he wants it all ... God money's not looking for the cure ... God money's not concerned about the sick among the pure ... God money, let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised ... God money's not one to choose ...
https://atproto.com is the future
Can't he just create a new social platform based on Reddit+Apollo and poach users into that platform?
It is okay. We have nostr now. Let's move forward on a platform without a central corporate interest.
As an avid user of Apollo, I'm going to miss the great UX. It was class apart.
Does anyone know if Reddit has explored acquiring/hiring the Apollo team before? And/or why not?!
Well a) the Apollo team is two people and b) why would they? Reddit’s priority is monetization. Acquiring/hiring the Apollo team doesn’t help that goal.
Monetization and growth go hand-in-hand. I'm an old.reddit.com user (even on MoWeb, I know I'm a psycho), but the way people talk about Apollo is like it's absolutely superior to the current Reddit app. If I were Reddit, and my users loved this third-party product _so much_, I would at least explore promoting Apollo to a first-class interface for browsing Reddit.
For the scale of Reddit as a company, it's likely a trivial deal; whereas the cross-pollination of ideas and UI/UX learnings could easily be worth more than the cost of collaborating.
It is the vastly superior app. That said, Reddit thinks it can get significantly more profit per user itself or it wouldn't be pricing the API so high Apollo had to shut down. I think they are laughably wrong, but they clearly don't see it as worthwhile vs whatever they are planning.
I was just thinking this could all just be a ruse to buy Apollo for cheap.
It would be very cool if he made the app free so people can actually try it before it gets killed.
Spez just posted that there will be a discussion tomorrow about the API: https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x/join_our_ce...
why can't reddit just give a 1yr grace period so 3p apps can update their pricing model to account for the new API prices? i know this is what I would do to avoid pissing off a massive use base if i were a decision maker at reddit.
Guess I need to start winding down my time on reddit, the next 3 weeks will go by fast.
I would never try to get a refund for Apollo. I got my money’s worth and way more.
Will plan my way out of reddit.
A bit of a missed opportunity here. Apollo could have shown users a running total of the API bill that the respective user is incurring and exposed how much Reddit thinks each user is worth. Putting that number in front of users would cause riots IMO. And would have been a delightful goodbye kiss.
Reads to me like this Christian guy asked for 10 mill to shut down his app. Why would they want to pay him that, instead of HIM paying THEM 20 mill? They are happy with him just going away. Sounds to me like a threat without having actually anything in hand to threaten with.
From listening to the audio clip, my understanding was he was trying to point out the absurdity in Reddit's claim the app actually cost them $20,000,000 per year by facetiously pointing out, if it were true, they could have gotten the app permanently for a steal of half that yearly cost and both of them would have been significantly richer. It didn't seem like he was ever legitimately asking for $10,000,000 to shut down the app, he knew it didn't cost that much and wasn't worth that much. If he thought it was actually worth so much, he wouldn't be shutting it down now.
I don't know, the argument doesn't work for me. Again, why would they pay him half the current operating cost to go away (even if that is not 20 mill)? Weird. Also weird to release audio publicly based on hear-say, the Steve guy didn't accuse him publicly of anything. I'd be very careful to be on the phone with this Christian guy, because, I might also "miss" (did he mention it at any point to the other guy?) that he is recording the conversation.
> Again, why would they pay him half the current operating cost to go away (even if that is not 20 mill)?
Again, the insinuation was that if anything was actually costing them the absurd $20,000,000 per year for multiple years then they would have had equally absurd ways of dealing with it, like paying a ridiculous $10,000,000 for Apollo and still saving tens of millions of dollars, which would have made more sense to do than what they did (let it go for years). The most obvious interpretation of this is "So obviously it's not costing you that absurdly, and we all know it. Now stop jerking me around on this API price being 'reasonable'." not "And that's why I'm asking you to actually pay me $10,000,000 to go away".
This method of pointing out how absurd the API pricing is came from a user, prior to the call: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/comment/... (the "/s" means sarcasm, in case you were thinking they were being serious as well).
> Also weird to release audio publicly based on hear-say, the Steve guy didn't accuse him publicly of anything.
It's not just private hearsay, the two quotes attributed to Steve are from the moderation call transcript which has been shared and verified.
> I'd be very careful to be on the phone with this Christian guy, because, I might also "miss" (did he mention it at any point to the other guy?) that he is recording the conversation.
I'd be worried about talking to someone who feels the need to be careful when they know the call is recorded.
Sarcasm doesn't play well when talking about a sales deal. Parroting some reddit's user's words doesn't help, either.
> I'd be worried about talking to someone who feels the need to be careful when they know the call is recorded.
You'll do alright then in our nice little surveillance earth. Personally, I don't like to talk to people who record me without telling me so, no matter what I say.
It usually doesn't doesn't, which is likely why he apologized for joking during the conversation at the same time Reddit apologized for misinterpreting what was said on multiple levels (both in the same audio clip). The point wasn't it was the best tactic that could have been used, just that it was clearly not a serious ask on his part where he expected them to actually buy it.
And I don't like to talk to people uncomfortable with the idea I can verify what they said to me. Surveillance is one thing when it's a third party, but it's a completely different thing when it's the person you're already sharing the information with. In the former problems about who you intended to communicate with and a third party with more power than that initial two come into play, in the latter those don't exist (unless your goal is to publicly lie about the conversation and push the recording to be shared, as was done here, in which I have little sympathy for lamenting you can't rely on doing that with me). But yeah, not everyone agrees on this one. Even the law is highly varied in this regard.
A recording involves third-parties, otherwise you wouldn't need a recording. As we can see now, everyone, even fourth and tenth parties can listen to this recording by going to a website. You can even say that Steve didn't give in to blackmail tactics, and Christian then killed the hostage (published the recording). I don't see much of a motive here for Christian except for revenge of some form (probably for taking away a lucrative income stream).
What is legal or not has not much to do with what is morally right or not, as the law is supposed to be objective, and morals are always subjective. In my book, publishing an unauthorised recording like that touches rock bottom morally.
Never, ever, depend on other people's API for your own survival.
spez is a comically bad CEO. This should not have been this complicated, if they wanted to kill 3P apps they could have just said that. This is a very Reddit thread () way of handling this!
Reddit claiming the Apollo dev tried to blackmail them is bizarre
Can someone please explain to me why users of third-party apps like Apollo don't just use their own API keys and pay for their API calls themselves?
Why is the third-party app vendor (and not the users themselves) paying for these API calls?
Wow… the “CEO” of reddit is a clown. I really had no idea.
Maybe it's time for federated link aggregators.
I still don't understand why the user flow can't be:
1. Download Apollo
2. Go to Reddit.com
3. Open your user settings
4. Generate a client_id and client_secret
5. Paste that into these two places in Apollo
6. There you go
Sure it's not strictly to OAuth2, but it's going to work just fine, right?
Obtaining Reddit API keys is an application process, it is not automated
Don't you just visit https://old.reddit.com/prefs/apps/ and press "create application"? I did this a few years ago and it was instant.
Because Reddit wants you to enter an agreement with them for the API, so you need to submit a request to get an API key for those client_ids.
Ah, not every user would be approved, huh? Cool, makes sense then.
Impossible to tell, it’s a request form on their support site where you have to answer a bunch of questions, and they’ll get back to you.
Because it would get pulled from the App Store.
The App Store doesn't allow for this sort of auth process? Surely you could showcase it as just `username` and `password`.
Correct. Adversarial clients are banned, per section 5.2.2 of the App Store Review Guidelines.
It isn't adversarial, though, right? It's just operating according to the site's design? i.e. This is the mechanism that Reddit wants people to use.
I recommend you read section 5.2.2 of the App Store Review Guidelines.
Fair enough.
> 5.2.2 Third-Party Sites/Services: If your app uses, accesses, monetizes access to, or displays content from a third-party service, ensure that you are specifically permitted to do so under the service’s terms of use. Authorization must be provided upon request
Yeah, I see it. You can’t provide proof for this.
One the best apps on iOS. Will be sad to lose it.
Feels like the beginning of the end for Reddit.
It sure as shit aint good for their upcoming IPO
i don't plan on buying reddit stock anymore, this is unstable leadership
What an absolute shit show. Reddit is objectively in the wrong here. Like Christian says, I fully agree that Reddit should charge for API access. But this is ridiculous and is simply a transparent (likely successful) attempt to kill 3rd party apps and streamline the "brand."
Ultimately, this is symptomatic of trying to monetize a service that either a) isn't something people want to pay for, or b) monetizing it in a way that kills the spirit of the service. A common problem with the internet, sure, but also smacks of a complete lack of creativity on the part of the suits. If this were an issue of maintaining Reddit's longevity, they could find a way to have their cake and eat it too. No, this is a clear attempt to raise their value before their IPO, so that a few suits can jump ship when the value is at its highest, as we've seen time and time again. And they're too stupid to see that their efforts fly in the face of their obvious goal.
Reddit got popular for lots of reasons; a big one was that it was fun and still felt freewheeling in a way that the increasingly corporate internet wasn't. It was still anonymous (if you wanted it to be), weird, communal, much like the early internet that was seemingly disappearing before our eyes, and yet still decently mainstream albeit in a nerdy way.
Something changed when people started referring to it as "social media." I've always been confused by that label. It's "social," yes, and I guess it is indeed "media," but it's not "social media." It has little in common with Myspace or Facebook or Instagram. It has much more in common with internet forums, albeit with an IMO better interface (the tiered comments design is simple and brilliant, much easier to navigate and keep parallel conversations going than your standard in-line forum). We don't call forums "social media" -- that label is quite loaded and comes with a number of connotations.
But alas, they tried to monetize it via the same model that all other "social media" is monetized -- with ads, clamping down on the weird, etc.
This kills the Reddit. Remember Tumblr?
My prediction? Reddit is going to limp on, but as even more of shadow of its former self than it's already become. It will become the Facebook equivalent of this kind of "social media" -- a distinctly non-hip, safe, boring, corporate place, with an ever-aging user base. One day it will be sold for a comparatively measly fee to someone social media giant that doesn't even exist yet.
Those who long for the Reddit of old will go off to other places. I myself already spend most of my time on HN anyways -- it's basically everything I want from Reddit and none of what I don't. It's got the "old.reddit.com" interface, doesn't require a mobile app to use on a mobile browser, is information-dense, clean, fast. Content-wise HN and the tech-related subreddits I frequent have a huge amount of overlap both in terms of content and I presume users. For everything else...meh, I can take it or leave it. The hobby subreddits are great, the /r/all comment threads for huge events are great, but all that was the cherry on top, not the cake.
I'll probably just continue to mostly spend my time here, and check out, say, the various fediverse clones of Reddit. But just like Mastadon with Twitter, it'll be too fragmented to truly replace what everyone is jumping ship from.
It's sad, but I suppose this is the way of all things. It's new, it's fun, it matures, it's stable, then it decays. So it goes.
Just deleted my account.
So back to digg then?
What is Apollo ?
I just came here because it hit 1337 comments. Nice.
Reddit moment
Fuck reddit
Holy shit
It's so obvious that the Apollo dev is not a good guy.
I don't understand. Why not using the Reddit app?
Because it’s a giant bloated spy machine ad-serving trash app. And Apollo is slick with excellent UX.
> giant bloated spy machine ad-serving trash app
That was an epic description. Like a Stephen Gaghan take on most (commercial) social media mobile clients.
Less features and less user friendly.
Reading the transcript, you could tell Steve was trying to bait Christian after hearing "I could make it really easy on you". You can feel the power imbalance. Steve didn't get much but he obviously still felt like it was enough to make the accusations he did. Steve was probably recording too.
Christian should have had a lawyer sit next to him on that call.
Totally agree that Reddit are being glorious ass-munching hentais here. I fucking hate all that Reddit has become as a company and as a product.
But also, dude just raise your prices. I read the whole announcement and truly don't understand why Apollo can't be $20/year. I don't know anybody who attributes a meaningful difference to $10/year and $20/year. I'm not a user but if I was faced with that type of price change and some language around needing to adjust pricing because Reddit is now charging for API access, I'd not give it a second thought.
It really really seems weird to want to die on this hill when you don't need to. Maybe it is the harbinger of the end for Reddit and we're just overdue. But I see no reason the founder of a popular Reddit reader couldn't secure some temporary funding to weather the transition, or simply negotiate a longer lead time rather than spending all the time in talks and ugly back and forth.
The "Why not just increase the price of Apollo" section says he's already sold 50,000 yearly subscriptions at normal price. He's going to offer a pro-rated refund and, at that point, he'll be out $250,000 of revenue he already recognized while still having all of the lifetime user loss to contend with. Even if he could optimize the API usage to halve it in the next 30 days that's still $1.25/m ($15/y) in API fees per user. After the App Store cut, the $20/y would only barely cover API cost of users who sign back up. Something like $30/y might make more sense to cover overall cost and bring in profit but then it comes to the question of "is it really worth trying to put all of this effort in to save a fraction of the userbase and MRR with a company that won't even give him more than a months notice to make these kinds of changes".
While I think there is a way to keep Apollo running in some form or another, I by no means blame them for going to this hill to let it die on. Waaaay too much work for far too little reward to have the burden of massive risk from dependency on Reddit's future whims lingering in the background.
> I don't know anybody who attributes a meaningful difference to $10/year and $20/year.
You forgot to factor in other things.
Base API cost: $2.52/mo (0.00024/call @ 345req/day)
App Store Taxes / Fees: $1.08/mo (I doubt he qualifies for the reduced fees at this point)
Just adding the appstore tax makes this $43.20 a year. That doesn't factor in any servers he has to pay for (push notifications). The app dev fee $99 per year, not a huge amount but small parts add up. Add in the cost to pay his server engineer, or any profit for him to live off (likely less users, so has to be more $ per user) of while making the app and it probably goes to something like $60/yr.
He said he could make the pricing work at half what reddit is asking, for $1.26/mo base API cost. I assume he has the best insight into his own business. I was just conservatively spitballing that doubling his revenue would mean he could manage the price Reddit is asking (since he said he could make due with half). Just looking at it from the other angle.
> He said he could make the pricing work at half what reddit is asking, for $1.26/mo base API cost.
He said a much more reasonable thing would be to cut the price in half and give a 3 month transition period to make it "feasible for more developers, myself included."
> However in a perfect world I think lowering the price by half and providing a three month transition period to the paid API would make the transition feasible for more developers, myself included. These concessions seem minor and reasonable in the face of the changes.
What that would likely mean is removing as many API calls as possible and removing features as a result. Which means fewer users would want to pay for it.
> I was just spitballing that doubling his revenue would mean he could manage the price Reddit is asking (since he said he could make due with half).
Also, as a tidbit. His current subscription pricing is $5/mo for ultra.
If we want to take that as his revenue for an ongoing subscription to double (since API access is going to be monthly), then the app would be $10/mo or $120/yr.
What, then, are you arguing his proposal was making feasible?
Fair. That definitely changes the situation a lot.
I don't have any dogs in this race, but Apollo should be careful about recording calls. Just because he is in a one-party location doesn't mean he hasn't violated the law wherever the other party is if they are in a two-party location and he didn't have consent from the other party.
Just in case anyone sees this and takes it seriously: this is absolutely not now that works.
California courts disagree: https://web.archive.org/web/20060823045528/http://www.courti...
Still looking for precedent on this at the national level, and of course International is another story. I could imagine (IANAL-YMMV) it being further complicated by where Apollo (the business) is legally domiciled.
Just in case anyone sees the immediately previous response and takes it seriously, the claim “this is absolutely not how that works” is at best dangerously misleading.
“Unfortunately, it is not always easy to tell which law applies to a communication, especially a phone call. For example, if you and the person you are recording are in different states, then it is difficult to say in advance whether federal or state law applies, and if state law applies which of the two (or more) relevant state laws will control the situation. Therefore, if you record a phone call with participants in more than one state, it is best to play it safe and get the consent of all parties. However, when you and the person you are recording are both located in the same state, then you can rely with greater certainty on the law of that state. In some states, this will mean that you can record with the consent of one party to the communication. In others, you will still need to get everyone’s consent.”
https://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/recording-phone-calls-and-c...
And even if it did in the US, I don't think anyone here is an expert on how phone consent laws work cross-country.
It doesn’t work like this. You are primarily beholden to the laws of the country you live in.
Unless you are enough of an issue that the US uses its federal might to clobber you internationally. In that case, you are pretty universally fucked.
> It doesn’t work like this.
It does though.
> You are primarily beholden to the laws of the country you live in.
This is only true to the extent that “primarily” is distinctly different from “exclusively”; in practice, you are beholden to the laws of any sovereignty that chooses to enforce them against you and has a reach that extends to your person and/or property of interest, either territorially, or through agreements (either pre-existing and general or specific to your situation and ad hoc) with other sovereigns, or through the will and capacity to exert force extraterritorially.
It doesn't have to involve extradition or treaties, just simply travelling to the place you have violated the laws of.
Maybe it's unlikely or uncommon though.
man ain’t gonna get extradited to the us over recording consent.
this makes no sense, these are STATE laws. if he is subject to jurisdiction of canada, then legally he is fine. that’s like florida saying they will go to CA and arrest people who have trans kids. they have no legal standing
Nobody said anything about extradition. See kearney v. salomon smith barney.
That's not how it works. If the state you are physically in allows 1-party recording, you can record.
California disagrees. kearney v. salomon smith barney
If you don't want to be recorded, then don't have phone calls with people who live in one party consent jurisdictions. This is common sense.
That's not how that works.
It's how it works in California, where Reddit is domiciled. kearney v. salomon smith barney
The Apollo app had much better performance than the official Reddit app. However, the design of the app was amateurish and hideous to look at. The official Reddit app is actually designed by designers and it shows.
Apollo's design is influenced heavily by Apple's/iOS's Human Interface Guidelines: https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...
The Reddit website frequently resets itself back to the feed page when I'm scrolling up/down through posts. That amount of clueless disruption during routine use is a deal breaker for me. Goodbye Reddit.
That’s an opinion that I’m not really sure matters for the conversation at hand. It’s not about if Apollo is good, it’s about how Apollo is being treated.
You are free to use what ever you want, and that’s the point. This removes everything but the Reddit app.
The official Reddit app, at least on Android, is a buggy mess from a UX experience.
- Half the time, clicking on a push notification takes me to the front page instead of the post that was interesting enough to click on. And then the notification is gone, and I can't get to said post easily at that point
- Sometimes, there's two articles that show up on the main screen that I want to read. I have to pick which one I want to read more, because there's a 50/50 shot that when I hit back, I will get a fully refreshed home page instead of being taken back to where it was.
- Overall it feels less natural to navigate through than the Reddit web interface, let alone the 'classic' (old.reddit.com) user interface.
- Probably not related to the design of the mobile app, but the hostile behavior of web reddit on mobile, constantly trying to force me into their subpar mobile app, is also irritating and painful.
Swipe to upvote/downvote puts it leagues ahead of the official app already.