Flux Keyboard
fluxkeyboard.comAs far as I know the "other times this has been tried" all have had individual displays (and controllers) in each key. The difference being that here there is just one panel under the whole board with most of the parts above the display being transparent. This approach should be far less complicated to build, more robust and cheaper.
Honestly, I don't think I need an LCD in my keyboard but I'd quite like to have a go on some mAgLeV hall effect switches! On that note, if you like magnets and/or keebs you might be interested in Void switches[0] -- 3D printable hall effect switches
Looks like a nice use case for eink IMO, as I don't see the point of having video playing under my keys but having keycaps that can change depending on the context sounds nice.
I remember seeing this _exact_ comment back in the late 2000s and being really excited for an eInk keyboard. eInk was always a super cool tech that was _just_ around the corner, but after almost 15 years I'm disapointed that it's applications have been largely restricted to eReades.
It would be extremely cool to finally end the constant pain of either overpaying for a laptop with my country's localization on the keyboard or straight up using a keyboard from a different country and just not looking at the keyboard since the buttons are all different when you set the software localization to my own country. eInk under every key, would of course be expensive at first but it would mean that the keyboards would now only have to be developed for US and got the ISO standard.
My stationary computer has Slovenian layout (which is where I'm from), Chromebook has German (where I also bought the laptop) layout because I couldn't find the same model for anywhere close to the same price in Slovenia (which is very common, most electronics I've bought have been from Germany or elsewhere just not Slovenia, because even including the shipping it's still cheaper.
But I still set the software keyboard layout to Slovenian, which means that the stuff that's printed on the keyboard is useless to me...
If anyone is looking for an excellent website to compare prizes and find products in Europe, I highly recommend geizhals.eu, the filter options make it so that you can basically build your own laptop, they are really amazing!
Especially when it's bright. I can imagine under direct sunlight the keyboard loses some of its appeal. Whatever.
If you don’t have the displays in the keys themselves, the symbols get really hard to see at the angles users typically use. I don’t typically look directly down at my keyboard as it’s not in my lap.
True. If it had short travel large keys (like on current MacBook Airs) with thin keys it would be better. I wouldn't mind having mechanical instead of magnetic suspension on the sides of keys and non-transparent (i.e. metal) gaps between keys (as it is now, again, with MacBook Air) as having a pretty big picture of video shown in the background is completely unnecessary, being a bother actually, distracting and annoying. Basically transparent material thin keys looking through many small windows into the single background display that may show whatever letters or small pictures (in high resolution) we want for each key.
Theoretically the glyph images could be offset. That is, there could be a setting so that they are all shifted upwards slightly so they appear neared the centre of the key when sitting back.
Of course, this does nothing to help if your position relative to the keyboard changes more dynamically throughout your usage.
It's basically a big streamdeck...
For a simpler but different-feeling option, you can also use rubber domes and glue, e.g. https://github.com/geoffder/dometyl-keyboard/#another-dactyl...
It's a shame that attempts to build open hardware and firmware for Topre/Niz-style capacitative rubber domes haven't gone anywhere over the years. Unless I'm out of the loop, people are still stuck yanking PCBs and controllers out of their Realforces and HHKBs to use domes in custom builds.
This is the closest I've seen: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734
Some Japanese did. https://goropikari.hatenablog.com/entry/diy_ec_keyboard
One could use those silicon popper OCD toys as a keyboard construction method. Still might need some sort of compliant spring mechanism with hysteresis.
Are there actual custom keyboard PCPs and controllers that support these? That would be pretty damn cool to have a maglev keyboard.
There's a kicad library [0] and (STM32F4*) firmware in rust [1] on riskable's github.
Ed: Untested Void Switch Reference PCB Implementation [2]
[0] https://github.com/riskable/void_switch_kicad
Giving me major nostalgia for the Optimus Maximus (https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/) keyboard and its successors. This one looks like an interesting take now that displays are even higher resolution, have haptic feedback, etc.
I remember thinking the Optimus was _so fucking cool_. I think when it was first announced I was still in high school, and I wasn't even a programmer yet, so the utility of it would have mostly been lost on me, and the price tag was laughable. But I just thought the idea was so cool.
Definitely my first thought when I saw this too. That brings me back to the good ol' days.
Also came here to say this — I wanted to love the Optimus Maximus (perhaps because of a bad case of buyer’s regret generating a counter-force to maximise cognitive dissonance) but as a keyboard it was awful.
(Combined it with a BMW-designed Level 10 case; quite the looker but monumental and monumentally oversized.)
Same here :). But original Optimus has a screen in each key. This technically similar to a later design https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/. Which also had a single big LCD and transparent keys on top of it.
Elgato's Stream Deck is a more mainstream application of the same approach, with a single LCD under all of the keys.
The Stream Deck isn't doing anything particularly exotic with its key mechanism, though (from what I can tell, there's a frame between the LCD and buttons with the actual contacts on it; no Hall-effect sensors or anything like that).
I have the midsized Stream Deck. The mushy feel of the keys is awful.
I was coming here to say this- one of those, "everything old is new again" moments.
This is interesting... but I can't help but think how much better it might be if instead of a video background just had a simpler e-ink display for indicating what the transparent key caps were for. The animation/videos are very distracting.
I never liked the Apple TouchBar or anything that required "active" attention away from the main screen.
E-ink is extremely expensive, especially at the size of a keyboard like that. Memory LCD would be more practical, but at that point the lcd costs the same and offers more power for those who want it.
There isn't anything stopping you from making the entire screen black except for the legends, probably
True dat. I recently made this for my home, as a once-a-day automatic newspaper deco thingie (ticking all the latest hype boxes: wrote a custom Rust driver for the EPD controller, and it's now also using the ChatGPT API to trim and style-transfer articles and headlines -- this and also various layout/typography improvements not yet in that album): https://imgur.com/a/PqkhdGd
$400+shipping for the display panel (a competitive price from the shop). Even at volume (which an enthusiast keyboard won't be) it's still very expensive.
Saw your project a few days back, absolutely loved it! Same-ish setup here, a massive e-ink screen hooked up to a controller and pine64 board. I hung it up next to my bed, displays my most important emails/weather/health-notifs etc., everything I need in the morning to get up and running
The cost of the panel makes me cry but there's nothing like e-ink :)
Very cool - I've been researching something nearly identical and it's nice to see your implementation of it. Unfortunately I'm not sure I want this bad enough for the $500 in hardware costs.
I was recently messing around with a very small eink display (and used it to display HN posts somewhat similar in concept to you). Out of curiosity, what display is that/where did you source it from?
It's a 13.3" 1600x1200 panel made by E Ink, from the Carta product line also used in Kindles et all, the ED133UT2. I bought it via Waveshare together with a little driver board featuring the ITE IT8951 controller: https://www.waveshare.com/product/displays/e-paper/epaper-1/...
The ED133UT2 is also available from E Ink directly and from other shops, but I haven't seen a significantly better price. There are also some other boards with the same controller around. An alternative to using the IT8951 is to hook the display up to an MCU with an adapter board for the flex cable directly and then drive the waveforms from the MCU, this is more complicated however and a little controller talking SPI is quite nice to have.
There's also a 10.3" with an even higher resolution that is very nice for various applications.
Ahh thanks!
yea it's a shame that e-ink screens larger than 6in or so get so much more expensive, they're not practical for low-cost appliances and toys
Can you let me know where you sourced the screen?
See my reply to your sibling :-)
Yup. TFT LCDs are in everything because they are so cheap, and they make designers who are used to designing for computers feel less constrained.
I have indoor and outdoor air quality sensors in my apartment; the outdoor air quality monitor is an LCD and the indoor one is e-ink. I kind of like the LCD better, but have to use a feature to turn off the screen at night so it's not illuminating the entire room with its backlight. The e-ink doesn't emit light, but it also doesn't update as frequently, so it's often displaying information that's out of date. Because of the various pros and cons, neither technology seems like a "win" over the other; the product designer has to pick one and hope the market agrees. LCDs get the nudge because of cost, though.
> There isn't anything stopping you from making the entire screen black
Except perhaps product designers wanting to make a flashy product that draws attention all the time, 24/7, pushing through '''features''' that leverage (force) full screen animations in the driver software.
I am bitter, yes, I met too many excellent hardware ruined by stupid, oversized, look-before-function attitude software. Making it grand and flashy (eventually overcomplicated and ugly) not because it is useful but because they can.
Yet E-ink is cheap enough for price tags at big box stores…?
My understanding is that the price of the displays is largely dependent on the size of the screen due to manufacturing techniques. I don't know the specifics unfortunately.
E-ink gets exponentially more expensive with size, and an e-ink panel in this keyboard would have to have a fairly decent resolution and refresh rate, whereas the price tags are usually 1-bit color, low res, and barely have to refresh
I think it'd be much better if they just had a simple e-ink display for showing what the transparent key caps are for. That way, you don't have to deal with any distracting animations or videos, and you can just focus on getting your work done.
And yeah, I totally get what you mean about the Apple TouchBar and stuff like that. It might look cool, but it's just another thing that takes your attention away from the main screen. We need interfaces that are designed to help us be more productive, not ones that are just flashy and distracting.
E-ink was the very first thing I thought of. Less power use, less glare, less distraction. Heck, I have the Logitech K800 Wireless Illuminated Keyboard and it hurts my eyes when the room is not brightly lit (unlike my Mac Book Pro's backlit keyboard which does it right).
I wonder about the parallax effect, since the display is a significant distance from the key tops. You can kinda see it in the short typing demonstration a third down the page. Though I never liked self-illuminating keyboards anyway.
I was thinking e-Ink too, it would allow the keyboard to be made wireless and have a respectable battery life of at least a week or two if not much longer.
I mean they're obviously going to make it so that you can set up the backgrounds however you want, and even if they didn't it would be a simple software update to make it so you can disable animations so I don't really think that that's a negative.
Yeah I’m not sure what the target audience is. I just bought a nice keyboard so I’m in the right market but I don’t really look at the key caps nor do I feel the need to have contextual buttons
I have used a LOT of custom keyboards, looking at an Ergodex DX1 on my shelf now. I wish this is something I could be confident in.
but, them not treating the screen as a display I think significantly limits the utility of this. You have to go through their software to customize the screen, layout, and customizations. Many of us know how hit-and-miss esoteric keyboard software tends to be.
If they stuck to making it an external display managed by the OS, polling the keyboard layout from the OS, and maybe just have their app apply custom functions like emojis and tool graphics I would have some confidence.
They are trying to tie up too much to their software which they will eventually stop supporting, like my DX1 paperweight.
I see your point, but I actually had the opposite concern when I was first looking at the product page.
I'd actually rather not have to worry about how my OS treats the extra "display" - plus I don't want running my keyboard to eat into my computer's resources in any significant way.
For me, this approach is better. Although I do have some concerns about the software eventually going EOL unless they open source it.
> They are trying to tie up too much to their software which they will eventually stop supporting, like my DX1 paperweight.
This is precisely why I probably won't buy one despite it looking honestly very cool.
Hardware manufacturers these days seem to be allergic to telling their customers how to actually talk to their gadgets, in favor of proprietary bundles of software that inevitably go unsupported within a few years.
Here I really don't understand why nobody open-sources their drivers when they end-of-life a product. I know some chips are covered by patent agreements blah blah, but that doesn't cover all cases. And part of a code base is better than none, even if the bits covered by the agreement need to be censored.
I also think software companies should/should have to open-source products when they discontinue them like Dropbox did with Zulip (the only example I can think of offhand), but I understand why the profit motive discourages it. But surely for hardware even that tenuous rationalization goes out the window.
The keyboard itself looks good but hardware vendors (including keyboard manufacturers) have a track record of making abysmal software. In fact, software should probably be their primary focus. From their FAQ it look like they want themselves to add support for every application. Will they have an SDK for other software vendors to add support to their applications? Being more open, e.g. making a github repo where anyone can contribute support for any application would be welcome.
Mark my words. If they release a good SDK for this, and this product catches on, we will have, "Jenna Jameson Teaches Typing".
This just sounds like you are completely set on making that.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to back your kickstarter.
What’s the joke here? I don’t understand
Porn typing game.
Yeah but what does that have to do with this keyboard in particular?
The keyboard has a screen.
Rule 34 in video game form.
I picture a naked torso with all the sensitive zones under the correct letters. Typing the right letters triggers something to happen.
This keyboard is a computer. They should have built a server of some kind (REST API, whatever) to manage the keyboard and documented it. They could provide a client for Windows, Linux and Mac OS developers would have built one or many of them for their OSes.
> Truly hot swappable 84-key keyframes to switch between tactile keys and linear keys in just 2.15 seconds.
I think I love everything about that sentence.
An easy-to-clean keyboard could definitely find its uses in dirty environments. Even if the screen is glass, the keys should protect it pretty well. Depending on how scratch-resistant they are. For CNC, being able to customize the keyboard seems really useful.
It's interesting that they say you can play video on it due to the built-in 8 GB storage, but it's not available as a display to the host. Their point that the "mouse cursor could get lost on the keyboard" is a nice rationale, but it does feel like an odd limitation for such a powerful device.
I wonder how complicated it would be to allow customization based on SPAs. Their list of initially supported applications suggests they are not tackling web apps at launch. E.g. the Google Docs/mail suite would be interesting to me.
There are upsides to the “not a display” approach: it means the display isn’t being driven by the host, so it’s going to be consistent even when your system is under load. I’m sure that was the original rationale for putting in its own ARM chip. I feel like they could totally add a pass-through mode, flip a switch to make it a display for the system to drive.
For CNC use I would worry about magnetic bits of metal getting into the keys and scratching the display below.
Yep. Magnets and magnetic cleverness are a real problem for those of us doing any kind of metalwork. They suck up all kinds of conductive metal chips and grinding dust. Even the speaker in a phone can be problematic.
From a cleanability aspect if this maglev system works well I'd just want this without the LCD and clear keycaps.
Not a fan of the idea:
1. I don't look at a keyboard so there's not much point in making it look fancy.
2. I destroy keyboards in 12 months. Even good quality mechanical ones. I probably can't afford to own this.
3. It looks like bits are going to fall off it when I inevitably catch the edge of it moving from my mouse to my keyboard.
4. It doesn't have enough keys on it and the default positioned layout sucks.
5. It's got transparent bits. My backlit laptop keyboard already looks like a cat litter tray after a couple of weeks. This is going to require a lot of upkeep.
I think the only keyboard I actually like at the moment is the Cherry Stream SX TKL. Costs $26, feels like an old ThinkPad, has all the right keys in the right place, if you break you won't cry, no bits fall off it when you shake the crap out, it doesn't look like a Christmas tree on acid or ever like a cat litter tray. I had 11 keyboards to get to that and it was the cheapest one. Ugh.
> I destroy keyboards in 12 months. Even good quality mechanical ones.
Wait how? How do they fail? This is interesting to me.
Same here, I don't think I've _ever_ destroyed a keyboard in my life. After about a decade on one, I just get tired of it and want to try something new.
Right now my favorite is the wired Apple Magic keyboard with numpad. I bought my current one new on ebay during covid at a big of a premium because they stopped making them years ago and are NLA. I don't use a Mac so the layout is funky, but all of the standard-layout knock-offs are bluetooth-only, have poor reviews, or are staggeringly expensive.
Not the person you're asking, but for me: I've been buying crap tier mechanical keyboards every ~9 months for the last few years to get a good feel for different switches and layouts, so I don't spend a lot of money on a really nice one I don't like. The quality is a big factor.
The other factor is that I'm a key masher. I just don't type lightly, particularly when I'm gaming - my brain refuses to accept that pressing W harder doesn't make me go faster, and my failure mode tends to be one of:
* switch breaks/wears out
* pcb stressed/flexed by my mashing causes traces or solder joints to loosen. Keys will only work sometimes, and sometimes end up putting out the wrong letter. Pushing hard on the misbehaving key will often make that one work but surrounding keys will start misbehaving. This has happened on a few keyboards!
It's a little wasteful, but for the cost of 1 good keyboard I've found out that I would have chosen the wrong layout and wrong switch type if I has sprung for a good one right away. I also learned I need a good key plate and maybe go with wire wrapping instead of a PCB for the switches.
ah, I totally forgot the gaming angle. FWIW I've broken switches too: I shipped my keyboard with not enough padding and my E switch broke, and the switches under my thumbs died because they had too much mechanical strain on the ALPS style leads with no place to mate the switch body with the PCB. In both cases I put in new switches and carried on since I built the darn thing to begin with.
Well for this keyboard since it's Hall effect sensors rather than switches I actually think it would hold up for you!
I think the Flux keyboard is a neat idea - personally I would prefer a small version, detached numpad-esque, but still with the changable modules, for ancillary input. Like a fancier stream deck.
As for the keyboard proper, I think its too late - a colleague and I are in the process of speccing out something for me to assemble based on my usage data, and I've caught the bug :) (just yesterday I spent a lot of time looking at keycaps of all things, I don't think I ever envisioned myself spending time on that sort of thing, but here we are)
hahah it's insidious! I built my daily driver in mid 2018 and I've been contemplating the next generation every day since. It's dormant, but never gone. I'm almost ready to get a 3d printer and get cracking.
Not the OP, but I probably go through a Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic every 24-36 months. The wrist-rest also gets gross after a while.
Mostly it's spills, but sometimes also a crumb or something stuck under a key and me breaking the switch in the process of trying to clean it.
I think I also have one where I just physically lost the wireless dongle. I have some spare ones from the _other_ ones I killed, but AFAICT they're "securely" paired at the factory and there's no way to reprogram those.
Well the mechanical keyboards, the key caps start falling off and won't stay on or the crappy lead free solder gives out on the keyswitches. The rubber dome ones, the rubber domes wear out and crap gets in and then it's end of the road. The ones that survive that tend to find out they have a coffee allergy.
> Each key is magnetically suspended with rare earth magnets allowing them to be 97% transparent and ultra low friction. Each switch has 4mm of travel and will be available in linear and tactile variants. They also feature a software adjustable actuation point in 0.1mm increments and rapid trigger functionality through analog hall effect sensing.
Ok sign me up.
Is the use of a rare earth element really functionally necessary here or are they actually doing it purely for marketing value?
I would think so. Rare earth magnets are permanent magnets and can be much stronger than iron based magnets of the same size.
I don't like low travel distances personally :(
4mm is not a low travel distance. Most cherry-like switches have around 4mm travel.
Oh, right you are!
I think it's the wrong move to make this a keyboard, particularly a traditional typewriter layout.
My main question is: can the hall effect sensors be read as variable states instead of boolean keypresses? That could be really cool, especially with the display for real-time feedback. I can think of so many use cases: change the volume that hard. WASD like a joystick.
It would be even cooler if they were in an even orthogonal grid pattern like a planck keyboard. That would be a lot like the impact-pressure sensitive controllers that are popular in audio work.
I would love something like that too use as a macro pad: keys that have arbitrary meaning you can reference. Keys that behave differently depending on context, and show you the context in real-time. That would be incredibly useful.
But my keyboard itself? I don't want to look at that. That place is for muscle memory alone.
> can the hall effect sensors be read as variable states instead of boolean keypresses
Yes, there's hall-effect keyboards out now that you can configure to have certain keys provide an analog input, for use in things like racing games. Since the actuation point is entirely software, you can keep track of actuation distance.
Neat! I wonder how difficult and expensive it would be to build one.
Definitely makes way more sense for a macro pad--you don't hit those keys very frequently so switches are less significant but the key's effect changes often so the screen is useful. Tactility is good, I never liked Apple's Touch Bar for that reason, you had to look to be sure what you were doing. Can't imagine those switches being preferable for the primary keys, but would love to see something like this in the old IBM AT F or XT layout: 10 function keys in two columns on the left side where they could easily be combined with meta keys. Back when I had those (mid to late 1980s) I relied heavily on them, but I almost never use function keys since they moved to the top of the keyboard (and are effectively out of reach).
> My main question is: can the hall effect sensors be read as variable states instead of boolean keypresses?
From the article:
> They also feature a software adjustable actuation point in 0.1mm increment
So probably yes.
> I would love something like that too use as a macro pad: keys that have arbitrary meaning you can reference. Keys that behave differently depending on context, and show you the context in real-time. That would be incredibly useful.
You might want to have a look at Elgato's Stream Decks.
You don't have to look at the keyboard. If you touch type the switch to emoji key, with a little training your muscle memory can type the right emoji for you and switch back to qwerty.
If I don't want to look at my keyboard, why have a display?
If I do want to look at my keyboard, why have it physically resemble a typewriter from 1800?
Have you ever had blank key caps on a keyboard? Do you actually never look at a keyboard? I recently got a moo lander thinking the same only to realize I do need to look at the board in the absence of muscle memory
Yes and no. I do look at some keyboards more than never. If i do, it's to get a frame of reference without feeling around for the bumps on f and j.
I'm definitely not looking to remember where a key is relative to the rest.
Glad people are trying to do something new!
I really like how it's Not derivative. It doesn't look like an Apple knockoff product or some other coattail riding project. Refreshing.
Keep at it! This is the kind of innovation we need!
Yes! I don't care if it doesn't type as well as mechanical or rubber keyboard. The cool factor is enough for me to buy one!
Am I the only person who wants a Thinkpad type trackpad-button in the middle of the keyboard so I don't have to move over to the mouse or trackpad?
You probably already know about this wired keyboard by Lenovo [0] that features the TrackPoint.
[0] https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/accessories-and-software/keyb...
And you also probably know that it is also possible to build one yourself: https://github.com/rampadc/arduino-thinkpadkb-usb
I did not. Thanks.
The only problem is that I use a split (ergo) keyboard :/
https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
I don’t use it and know little about the project, I just remembered that it’s a split keyboard with an optional trackpoint attachment.
Thanks! I don't think I'm rolling enough to drop $320 on a keyboard, but when I am, this will probably be the one.
Look up "keyball" custom mech keyboards.
If I could buy a prebuilt, I think it'd be my endgame.
I even went and got myself a Tex Yoda II. I like it, but sometimes I wish it had real arrow keys. Maybe I'd go for a Shinobi next time.
https://tex.com.tw/ if you want to shell out a decent wad of cash, you can get one of these. I want one but $200 seems a bit much!
> I want one but $200 seems a bit much!
Unsolicited advice: you should definitely never visit /r/mechanicalkeyboards.
Ooh, I am a sucker for scooped keys.
If you will use QMK powered keyboard (or similar) you can even map mouse movements to the keys [1], so you won't move from keyboard at all. On my keyboard, I have wasd style mouse movement on ijkl keys, and it works quite well.
[1]: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/feature...
Weird - I saw this and thought ... "this is all great, but where's the trackpoint?" :D The only real ooo-ahh for us is if some fancy new keyboard design has a trackpoint. All the pretty lights don't match up to that trackpoint :D
Or capacitance enabled keys so brushing across them performs touch input.
Would be really interesting. I'm sad that the Touchstream (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks) never got anywhere. Without sensing the keys it was really difficult to use, but the mix of keyboard and touch interface was nice.
Do you know of an example of this? I would assume this would be a terrible experience.
The "Click&Touch" keyboard did this.
I have one. Somewhere. Because the keys need to be as close as possible, it's less than ideal as a keyboard, and because even though the keys are right next to each other there are still gaps between the keys, it's less than ideal as a touchpad.
That's when it worked. It wasn't reliable for me.
I would rather have a split keyboard with a trackpad in the middle
yes, or better yet a trackball
I did in fact find a keyboard like that online -- some noname brand, and the promise was good, but not the execution. A high quality version would be welcome.
I dunno what the software on this looks like (wrt writing a custom driver) but if you can add knobs it seems like it could pick up trackpoint wiggling around
I want this but a joystick instead of a nub. More leverage
For when you need to mouse _really_ fast? Genuinely curious how more leverage would be beneficial
honestly - IDK I feel like the amount of force on my left index finger is kind of high. Turning up the sensitivity doesn't really help either. My nub isn't even very worn.
i just want a trackpoint on every keyboard in general
shocking to me that so few keyboards implement this; maybe a patent issue?
Could be a demand thing.
Anecdotally, around 2010 I’ve worked for a company that used Thinkpad laptops, the majority of people would always choose touchpad over trackpoint.
I don't find the displays particularly interesting or useful on an entire keyboard.
What is interesting is they're using hall effect (magnetic) sensors, which have a vastly longer life than normal mechanical switches. That isn't new either, the Dreamcast had them way back in the day, and today Wooting sells keyboard with the same tech. This enables some very useful gaming features.
First, you can adjust the initial actuation point, so the keyboard registers a much lighter press, resulting in faster effective response times. Like Wooting, it goes all the way down to 0.1mm.
Second and probably more importantly, it supports rapid trigger, meaning the key instantly releases the instant you start to lift up your finger, and then it doesn't have a set actuation point so the key doesn't need to lift up most of the way before you can press it down again. This allows for much, MUCH more responsive controls which is a noticeable advantage in eSports games and some rapid-clicker games like Osu.
Thirdly and not very important at all, Wooting supports analog controls, so you can play driving games with your keyboard, or adjust your movement speed in a shooter. There are all kinds of issues with support in games, though, and it's unclear if the Flux supports it at all.
The problem with Wooting is it's expensive; the keyboard costs $175. These magnetic switches need to get down to a more reasonable pricepoint.
And the problem with the Flux keyboard is, well, it's even more expensive. Starts at $299 in the kickstarter phase, and will retail at $450.
I do find it encouraging to see more manufacturers using magnetic switches, and hope prices come down at the low end quickly. They're just plain better.
> These magnetic switches need to get down to a more reasonable pricepoint.
I think that's close to an inherent problem with the bill of materials. Taking a look at DigiKey, the cheapest in-stock linear hall effect sensor that I see still runs about $0.40 apiece in large quantity. Turning that into a usable keyswitch requires at least two more magnets, and I'm sure the assembly isn't particularly easy.
Without some great cost reduction in hall effect sensors, I think a magnetic-switch keyboard will always be more expensive than a mechanical-switch keyboard, which will be more expensive than a rubber dome keyboard.
That assumes there are no discounts to be had by partnering with large companies making switches, doesn't it? Wooting partnered with Gateron to build their Lekker hall-effect switches. I would be very surprised if their BOM for switches alone on the 104-key model was $125 given it retails for $195-- and that includes 104 keycaps, the case, cable, packaging, controller board, etc.
No doubt they're considerably more expensive than regular mechanical switches, but it's unclear how much of that expense comes from their being pretty rare right now and not benefiting from economies of scale. That's my hope, at any rate, because again-- they're just plain better.
>How much will it cost?
>The keyboard will cost between US$299 - $350 after discounts for pre-orders with a retail price of US$450.
That's... not as high as I thought it might be, considering how expensive mechanical keyboards can get and how esoteric of a product this is.
> considering how expensive mechanical keyboards can get
I would claim that there’s nothing expensive about mechanical keyboards, there’s healthy profit margins, and passionate people.
> Linux / Android / iOS - Limited compatibility (see FAQ regarding operation without installed software)
i.e. no, it can't be run without a Windows or MacOS machine to set it up first. Oh well, $300-450 was a lot for a keyboard anyways. (Well, not bad for what this is, but I have to tell myself something to feel better)
Some other times this was tried: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard , https://liliputing.com/the-poly-keyboard-uses-tiny-oled-disp... , https://www.alphr.com/united-keys/united-keys-oled-display-k...
This looks like one big screen with transparent keys instead of a single small screen for each key like all the examples you linked.
Should be much cheaper to produce, and cost is always the problem with projects like this.
Well, this keyboard will cost $300 to $450 :-(
That's still only 20-30% of the quoted price for the Optimus Maximus ($1500, IIRC).
This is exactly what I've been dreaming of ever since Hall effect switches came back. It's very reminiscent of the old school Zboard keyboard that had physical overlays tailored towards specific games. This digital approach seems a touch more scalable.
Also that the keys are "maglev"
Each key is magnetically suspended with rare earth magnets allowing them to be 97% transparent and ultra low friction. Each switch has 4mm of travel and will be available in linear and tactile variants. They also feature a software adjustable actuation point in 0.1mm increments and rapid trigger functionality through analog hall effect sensing.
The keys contain magnets along their perimeter which are attracted by magnets in the frame which surrounds them. This magnetic attraction suspends them in place and provides the return force which makes the key bounce back after depressing - similar to a spring.
Their description feels wrong to me. How does an attractive force repel the key and keep it suspended?
I like magnetic force too. My guess is that they use two magnets of different polar orientation on the key and below the key, like -+ to +- or +- to -+. This keeps the key floating above the base.
If they are really with the times, then they will use printed polymagnets:
Programmed magnets, or polymagnets are magnetic structures that incorporate correlated patterns of magnets with alternating polarity, designed to achieve a desired behavior and deliver stronger local force. By varying the magnetic fields and strengths, different mechanical behaviors can be controlled.
I have a magnet in the pad of my left ring finger. This keyboard would likely be uncomfortable for me
Why do you have a magnet in your finger?
One reason some people do this is so they can feel currents, and it's a cool party trick. But the real effect is spending the rest of your life explaining to people that you can't do something because you have magnets in your fingers.
I read this blog in 2009??? Found a guy to implant a magnet in 2013
Yep. From that link "Rich Lee is known for implanting headphones in his tragi in 2013, as well as for his work on a vibrating pelvic implant called the Lovetron9000. His biohacking activities were used as a justification to remove his parental custody rights in 2016."
I got the same implants after talking to him about it on IG. It barely worked. An array of magnets on the skull would probably work. I had to get the magnets in my ears removed when the casings failed.
Life is truely composed of tradeoffs, no?
My guess is that if this keyboard is released and if you use your fingertips rather than fingerpads to type, you might not have a problem unless you are ticklish.
uncomfortable or not I would expect the keyboard might type a lot of extra "S"s when you use it.
Is "I have a magnet in my finger!" the new "I'm vegan!"?
No, but I am vegan. Vegan since 2002. Magnet in my finger since 2013. It's fun to feel my laptop charging. But also it's kind of inconvenient in ways I never expected.
It's a pity that they have one column of keys right to the Enter and Delete keys. I need empty space there because it's an anchor point for me. I tend to hit the key right to the Enter key whenever I want to hit the Enter key. My wife's laptop has this layout and it drives me crazy.
I already mailed them and I hope they can consider this.
They just answered and they said, you can remove the rightmost colum to get a 60% form factor. Yippie! Looking forward to order from them.
I would really like it if these fancypants keyboards came in a layout other than the crunch-all-your-fingers-together-in-the-middle-for-extra-RSI design that the keyboard nerds seem to adore
I mean the layout is more or less a standard qwerty one. It's not any more condensed than any other keyboard, as far as I can tell. You can imagine why an ergonomic layout would make this particular product more difficult, as you'd either need multiple displays for a split board, or a much larger display to accommodate the larger keyboard surface of a more traditional ergonomic layout.
Also fwiw I don't think there's any real evidence to suggest that ergonomic keyboard layouts help with RSIs.
Switching to a tented split keyboard (UHK v1) effectively saved my productivity from a really bad case of forearm tendonitis a couple of years ago. Was still typing with coldpacks on my wrists, but it was doable in a way continuing on the laptop keyboard every day all day was not.
It puts less tension on my hands, I can feel that. 12+ hours a day in front of a keyboard, for weeks at a time sometimes for me. I don't have to bunch my elbows into my stomach to use the standard home row posture. I think those are all ergonomic wins.
I feel like you're out of the loop when it comes to keyboard nerds. Check out the dactyl-manuform [0]. The days of tiny 40/60 keyboards are gone, they aren't cool anymore (joking of course, use what you want).
the 3 modern higher end keyboard companies that attend to ergonomic concerns are, afaik, - keyboard.io - kinesis - ergodox
and then there's maltron keyboards, a bit older-school.
I have a kinesis edge and a keyboard.io, I like the kinesis edge rgb variant. the keyboard.io is very hard for me.
keyboard.io keyboards look really uncomfortable for long-term use, what with that hard wood looking enclosure. Ergodox and kinesis both do that weird split keyboard thing. All put other buttons below the thumb which I am not sure about.
Can someone just please make a high-quality MS Natural Ergonomic 4000? Mine is getting worn out.
edit- holy shit it looks like MS reintroduced it! https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboa...
The hardwood enclosure hasn't bothered me too much. The thumb cluster and layers bother me more.
I also miss the MS Natural 4K. There's a cheap knockoff on Amazon, but I didn't bother with it.
re the edit:
> Nevertheless, if there were a world where amazing products suddenly snapped out of existence and were replaced with husks of their former selves, it would be this keyboard. Oh, right. That is this world.
Amazon review of the latest gen ergo keyboard.
If ms does a MS Natural 4001 or whatever, a genuine successor, I'll probably buy 3. It was _really_ nice.
It's cheap enough that I'm willing to give it a shot. The MS Sculpt wireless keyboard was pretty and unexpectedly comfortable for me once I got used to the chiclet keys
Also Dygma Raise, which I love.
Best of all worlds -- Ergodox thumb cluster with traditional staggered keys. Upgraded from a Kinesis Freestyle RGB and I will tell you, the Dygma is worth every penny!
To be honest I'd settle for an ISO option!
Is my decades long quest for a keyboard that can switch between space cadet lisp mode and APL finally coming to an end?? I hope so. Hyper super meta alpha!
You can have that today.
Rough outline to get you hacking: Run `setxkbmap -print | xkbcomp -xkb - -` and edit super/hyper/meta keys to your liking. Install result with `xkbcomp my-cool-layout.xkb $DISPLAY`.
IMO APL is best implemented as a new input method rather than a layout, add a new .mim file into /usr/share/m17n.
Always great to see innovation in the keyboard space! Looks like a pretty neat product. I was hoping to see some sort of mouse layer or mouse control like on the UHK.
The UHK totally transformed how I use my desktop. I literally don't even have a mouse to plug in now if I wanted to because it's been so many years since I needed it. If the UHK ever broke or went out of business, I'd be in a world of hurt. Shipping times for the UHK are abysmal. I think it took almost a year to get my UHKv2. I spent some time searching for a similar product but couldn't find it. I don't think implementing that in software would be too hard, although it would not be cross platform like the UHK is.
Anyone know of "mouse with the keyboard" solutions?
How do you control the mouse using the UHK?
The default way is like this: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/manuals/uhk60/mouse. Additionally there are addon modules for a trackpoint, touchpad or trackball (https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/shop)
Yep exactly. Basically you hold a modifier key and then certain keys will control mouse movement instead of their normal function. Think of it like how <Shift> changes keys to upper case. It takes a little getting used to but it quickly becomes muscle memory and you never have to think about it.
replaceable key "frame" had me hopeful, but no, there is no ortholinear support - only staggered layouts. Lame.
this just seems to be a new attempt at the ol' Optimus Maximus
Maybe maybe eventually? And perhaps it can be marketed as macropad-like? I'm hopeful but realistically there isn't much of a market for us folk.
I like the swappable modules idea. If it would support Linux, and was hackable I miight consider it (no mention of open source).
If this didn't support something like QMK I'd be shocked. They seem to know what will drive sales and the keyboard community will be huge on hacking. If they're tone deaf enough not to have that ability then.. well, we'll see.
The "hot swap" video is really cute with the team switching from green to red, as the keyboard switches to red type linear switches.
I really like the idea. This is touchbar + tactile feedback. This could reduce the mental burden of remembering keyboard shortcuts.
Surprising this toy doesn't exist yet. People will use(buy) it. 450$... fine, it is an expensive toy after all.
Loved the last FAQ entry:
> Where is Flux based?
> Flux is based in Sydney, Australia. We are from the future, due to time zone differences.
Always missing from keyboard-craft FAQs:
- What are your plans for TouchID?
I would spend the price of the custom keyboard plus the price of an Apple keyboard to tear down, just to have that feature included. Offer a primary price point without it, add $149 for a TouchID "module", see what happens.
They're not saying it explicitly but it sounds like the software for managing this thing will be closed source. Customizations will only work on Mac and windows. Hard pass from me unless someone reverse engineers the configuration protocol
Why the fuck do i need video behind my keyboard?
To impress your crush, obviously ;)
I pretty much came to say the same thing.
I want a repairable keyboard that works reliably across OS for a reasonable price. I'm pretty sure I am not the target market.
I prefer blank keycaps. Better for posture and focus to not be looking at your keyboard all the time. Also, maintaining the need to see your keys clearly puts arbitrary limits on tent angle.
I would appreciate something which could understand both my keyboard firmware and whichever app has focus, and summon a hotkey helper on screen which mirrored my key layout.
I've been using a blank Das Keyboard [1] at work for years. Besides all of the benefits you've listed, I've also found that it's the most effective deterrent for keeping people off my desk/off my computer that I've ever deployed.
I used a blank DAS to learn to touchtype. I now use a non-blank Kinesis Advantage2, but it has qwerty keycaps while all my devices are colemak so it has a similar effect to blank with the added bonus of confusing other people even more because the keycaps don’t match what is typed.
Ha, awesome. It makes me want to get some keycaps in some obscure language like klingon, just to mess with people.
I ended up going with blank but I did consider getting "Linear A" keycaps https://shop.keyboard.io/products/linear-a-keycaps-m100 for my Keyboardio Model 100.
I like to use symbol only space cadet keycaps https://mkultra.click/gb-kat-space-cadet
For me, this plus a split keyboard in the Dvorak layout fries the brains of anyone who might dare to try to use my computer.
Yep, I may have gotten carried away with that. There's nothing so uniquely mine as this: https://imgur.com/a/vXLX4RA
Agreed. I'm also left handed and have my mouse to the left of the keyboard with the buttons swapped. It's amazingly effective.
Not to be pedantic, but in the “Easy Maintenance” clip you can see the keycaps are in fact blank
Touche
if you don't want to shell out for a das keyboard, you could really just use any keyboard and spraypaint all the keycaps
This seems like almost the perfect keyboard.
Although it feels a little wasteful to always be using 4W on a keyboard. But it looks so !much better than any RGB setup I've seen, and it's got so much potential on things like a Raspberry Pi, it could be the terminal display and keyboard in one!
E-ink might be even cooler!
If they could get the knobs to attach to the screen without metal contacts (maybe inductive power and alignment magnets?) and have a touch screen, this would make an incredible customizable music / midi controller. It would be a joy to make hybrid HW/SW interfaces for soft synths with that.
This looks fun, but I worked a long time to get to the point where I never have to look at my keyboard
Cool concept but unusable for me due to the shortened right shift key. I dislike how so many custom keyboards like cutting that key to save a tiny bit of space. To me, it ruins the ergonomics and feels like it’s placing form over function.
As a touch typist, I can usually adapt quickly to variations in the bottom row (Ctrl, Fn, Alt, super key). But I find it impossible to use a keyboard with undersized, asymmetrical Shift keys. Odd choice for a flexible keyboard.
I would buy this. If anything, just for the aesthetics. I'm stuck on the Logitec MX keyboard cause it can easily switch between my two laptops. I will have to find a solution to be able to do the same with this keyboard.
So basically the Optimus Maximus again, but a decade and a half later. Cool. Everything old is new again.
Why hasn't this caught on yet? Tiny little OLED displays have been around for a while, and we could standardize a layout that is independent of the glyphs on each key just as ISO/ANSI/etc have...
What's the hold up?
Looks like a meme, yet another expensive rectangle. The screen gimmick will wear away in a few days. Also, keycaps will be very difficult to source, and flat keycaps are really uncomfortable.
I really want to try this. I'm guessing that key press will feel weird and will take time to get used to it. But the benefits of this keyboard design are very appealing!
Is it possible to give the key tops a concave curve? I find that that helps me be a slightly less mediocre typist, but I'm guessing it would distort the image underneath.
Anyone have a specific keyboard they really enjoy using?
For me it's a simple affair: Apple Wired Keyboard. I always liked thin keyboards with minimal travel / low profile keyboards.
My logitech K860. The keypresses are crisp but quiet, the raisers are correctly at the bottom of the board rather than the top, the split layout is decent enough, and you can pair up to 3 bluetooth devices, so I can use it to type on my phone too.
I remain obsessed with / utterly dependent on my Maltron (contoured, two-hand, trackball). I have a Glove80 coming: let's see if it wins me over.
I'd love it if they offered an ortholinear keyframe.
At what point would the magnets lose their strength?
The screen is the least interesting part of this for me and might actually be a negative. The mag lev switches, now that's cool.
Why should one get this and not Nemeio?
I'm surprised no one has ever made an e-ink keyboard. By this, I mean each individual key is a mini e-ink display.
I was kind of surprised that the keyboard for the Lenovo Yogabook 9i dual-screen folding laptop wasn't so done.
> The keyboard will cost between US$299 - $350 after discounts for pre-orders with a retail price of US$450.
Interesting. It could be used together with a foldable laptop/tablet. Something like ThinkPad X1 Fold.
I wish there was a version without the screen. I’m fine with blank keys, I’d even enjoy them.
Can the physical key layout be changed to be ortho or columnar stagger?
This looks awesome. I'm curious to see what additional modules they make for it.
They should have sent a poet
I'll definitely buy one. Very cool form factor.
Cool idea, but I try to not look at my keyboard ...
Would the mechanics of those switches be any good?
They're supposed to be, yes. Maglev and hall effect is a hot topic in keyboard modding communities.
I love the pitstop video for the keyframe swap.
That's going to be hard to keep clean.
looks like the key feel will be very bad
looks awful for ergonomics :/
yeah, came here to say something similar. It looks super cool and the features, wow... but unfortunately when I don't use an ergonomic keyboard (my Microsoft Sculpt has been with me for 10 years), pain starts pretty much instantly. If they ever release a more ergonomic version that would be interesting!
Agree. Would be interested if horizontal rows. Still happy with my kinesis which I never look at.
No worse than any other standard keyboard that the overwhelming majority of people use.
Well, the bar is in hell. Nobody should be using flat slab keyboards. They are objectively terrible for your wrists. Absent space constraints like inclusion in a laptop this flat design is a nonstarter.
Jesus. This is the most tasteful, flexed out but not over the top landing page I’ve ever seen.
I love it. I’ve no use for something like this, but I’m in absolute awe at the design on display. Marvelous. I hope Apple or somebody makes this person obscenely wealthy.
Finally an evolution of the keyboard
People hated on Apple for the touch bar, but this is the natural evolution of the keyboard, why stick to fixed physical keys when you can have them digitalized to be context aware
The problem will be the price
Mechanical keyboard market already is a scam where 90% of products are greatly overpriced, that will not encourage them to offer a reasonable price unfortunately
EDIT:
The keyboard will cost between US$299 - $350 after discounts for pre-orders with a retail price of US$450.
Yeah, the price of a console-tier GPU, way too overpriced to be a successful product
Are you kidding, I saw a mouse the other day selling for two hundred bucks. Provided that by some miracle this has a good keyboard feel, I can imagine entire shops switching over to this in specialized industries, plus loads of gamers, translators, people wanting it as a status symbol. It could even be something of a security measure by obfuscating the keys during login. Even perhaps a laptop manufacturer can license their tech for dual screen laptops like the Lenovo Yoga Book 9i. It wouldn't even be a $400
It's no wonder companies out there have an insane burn rate, something important got lost in the process
People didn't hate the touch bar because it had a screen. People hated it because capacitive touch sucks for keyboards.
I actually suspect it's too cheap for what they are promising.
easy maintenance is what I really want this for. Even the best keyboard eventually transforms into a crusty mess due to how dirty I am.
With this I can I can keep it clean.