Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP
driverbase.comI tried to buy one of these this month. The dealership I went to has a policy of not selling over MSRP, which I appreciate. As a result, they are no longer even taking names for the RAV4 Prime waiting list because they estimate the wait is 2-3 years.
I found one last year. It was 7k dealer markup, plus another 3k for various accessories, plus another 2k for an A/C super coolant. They also came in extremely low on a trade-in. I ended up walking and ordering a Model Y. It felt slimy to pay over MSRP. Similar experiences at several ford dealers over mach-e prices.
At Toyota dealers you pay over MSRP, at Tesla they just repeatedly raise the MSRP...
Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during that time. I paid the original price.
Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.
Eh, that doesn't even seem legal? Unless it's in a contract somewhere in very very small text.
You order it from Ford, buy it from the dealer. Ford shows you the MSRP. Dealer gets to charge you whatever they want. It doesn't feel legal. Ford has told dealers they'll be punished if they do it. Dealers are still doing it.
According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, dealers average about 2k in profit on a new car. Many are adding market adjustments of 5-20k. They're multiplying the profit they make each sale. It feels very wrong, but Ford really can't do too much especially if they're all doing it in an area.
https://www.onlineautodealered.com/career-central/how-much-d...
With the Silverado EV, the fine print says this: "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price excludes destination freight charge, tax, title, license, dealer fees, optional equipment, and other options. Participating dealer determines final price. Estimated Destination Freight Charge is $1,695; subject to change"
They are making it fairly clear that the dealer ultimately gets to set the sales price, even for reservation from before the launch.
as I've heard, they will order the car for you, but you only sign/pay for it when it has arrived.
I guess due to demand and regular price increases, they don't need to worry about customers bailing out, and they can keep adding to their margin as the market rises
Most dealers don't do this, though admittedly as another commenter mentioned, this isn't stopping the all the less scrupulous dealers.
I paid MSRP for a Mach E I ordered online with relatively little fanfare, albeit with a ~10 month wait and a model year bump (for which Ford gave me a discount off the slightly higher MSRP).
at least you have some idea what you’re dealing with without having to haggle with a salesperson.
Good for you!
How are you liking the Y?
I tried to buy one last year. The dealer I went to said they weren't being allocated any and that I'd have to go to another dealer. The look on their face was basically "haha good luck"
Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doing business with them. I went for a Tesla Model Y instead, and I'm very happy with it.
This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k?
[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
Tesla is up front about the cost of the vehicle, save for the default display being "with fuel savings", but in any case the true cost is a click away.
Versus the dealership(Larry h Miller) advertising the car for $40k on their site, and not telling you about the $15k fee until you're in their office.
As someone who did the exact same thing last year, we paid $55,290 for our Model Y. Dealers were quoting us 48k for the RAV4 hybrid, with a 12 month wait list.
It was worth it for us to pay 7k for the upgrade to the Tesla, and to get something much faster.
Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer.
I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
>I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla
An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The car was then sold twice until someone found the discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less than they paid for from Tesla.
The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
If it shows up in Tesla’s software as a 90 kwh battery then it is absolutely something you can blame on Tesla.
What kind of insane argument is that?
If you order a Toyota Camry and the transporter drops off a Ferrari at your door screaming WELL IT SAYS FERRARI ON RIGHT THERE ON THE CAR isn't in any way a valid argument.
They're just going to tell you that's nice but so what that's not where the discrepancy is in the first place. The order says Toyota, the invoice say Toyota, the transport slip says Toyota, etc, etc.
Okay but Ferrari can't remotely turn that Ferrari into a Camry.
Nothing happened remotely, the discrepancy was noticed when the car was brought in for a service.
And a service center can't turn that Ferrari into a Camry, either.
What nonsense are you talking about? This sort of stuff happens in construction all the time. If the wrong materials get delivered to you site they absolutely can and will come take what you didn't pay for and bring you the correct materials.
Same thing if any enterprise hardware or software is provisioned incorrectly. Same thing with telecom.
Same thing with cars. If the wrong car gets dropped off they can and absolutely will send a truck to retrieve it.
> If the wrong materials get delivered to you site they absolutely can and will come take what you didn't pay for and bring you the correct materials.
Will they tear down the building built with those materials 3 years ago to do it?
If you read the comments, you'd have seen the analogy to Apple repairing a laptop with slightly better parts and then deciding multiple years later to software-nerf it. I don't know about you, but I'd be livid - in both cases.
You would be livid you got exactly what you paid for?
In this analogy, I paid for the full hardware. That Apple or Tesla didn't charge some previous owner ain't my concern.
Tesla has its issues but the dealers barely give any value to the customer.
Right now, pricing is the most transparent it has ever been among traditional dealers. For most new cars, you pay MSRP.
If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay a lot more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date for one is April 2023, and that's just for the premium models.
Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a Toyota RAV4.
The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was 61k
Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
It is compared to some of the current prices for this RAV4 Prime.
In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I’m averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas prices($5.75) I’d need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile. The rav4 is complicated because it’s both, but I’d get about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it’s as efficient as the Tesla which epa numbers aren’t as good) and 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average day about 100 miles, it’d be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 = 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it’s $960 vs $3240. That points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a prime quite a bit more.
Are Teslas the only electrics you can buy that way?
> but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee"
Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
It's not just supply and demand, because the manufacturers have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes them look bad. And the manufacturers can't do anything about it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale process.
And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before.
And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay something like $500 in dealership charges which is more than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway robbery.
Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways.
I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks.
But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
$500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees though.
Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained environment.
the 15k markups are on top of the normal dealer fees like destination charges.
>Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3].
[1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-...
[2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-...
[3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting something special from the dealership in addition to buying the car from them.
You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial loss.
$20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting room.
You are getting something special -- the fact that they have one on hand. :)
It’s in scare quotes because it’s not a fee, it’s just a way of raising the price.
> it’s just a way of raising the price
All fees are a way of raising a price.
Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the purpose of getting more money from the buyer without putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the dealer at all.
No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline.
There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference.
It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).
I think we only care about the presentation of fees to consumers assessed separately from the advertised price. Countless costs of doing business (and markup) are built into the advertised price. At least it is very simple for the consumer to compare prices.
A per-transaction credit card fee doesn't raise the unit price. Getting hung up on the evolving details of gas stations and credit card processing isn't the point.
If it was actually just supply and demand then these dealerships wouldn't exist at all.
15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
Don't forget that they'll advertise it as "15k off!" on their website but really they're just taking off some other market adjustment. It's ridiculous. Dealers cant go away soon enough.
Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?
Something being "supported by market conditions" is not a valid test for reasonableness. During disasters for example, all manner of unethical practices can be "supported by market conditions". Yet we enact laws against those things for good reason.
You also seem to forget the fact that much of those market conditions are a result of anti-competitive and anti-consumer laws guaranteeing their the status a middle men by force.
If for example consumers were able to buy directly from manufacturers but chose to pay more at a dealership because they thought the extra cost was worth some surplus value provided then you might have a point.
When market conditions dropped the price of gas in 2020 to record levels because demand was so low and supplies were high, I didn’t see people claiming we shouldn’t let gas stations do that because it enticed people to buy gas.
You seem very intent on defending this sort of behavior. I wonder why?
In my not so humble opinion, while the used market can do what it may, MSRP is MSRP. This goes for GPUs as much as it goes for cars. I understand shortages. I am ok with waiting lists. I do not appreciate profiteering. Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my business in the future.
> I wonder why?
I guess I don't get why people think they should be immune from paying a market price.
When you negotiate salary do you go for the most you can negotiate? Or do you accept minimum wage because someone somewhere suggested it to you? Why do you think any other transaction should be different? It's a brand new luxury SUV, it's not baby milk.
> MSRP is MSRP
Guess what... the MSRP includes profit (gasp!). As much profit as they thought they could get away with when it was set.
> Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my business in the future.
Ok so great this already limits how much they can charge. I guess someone else somewhere is willing the pay the price though, or they wouldn't charge it.
I think your logic is basically 'I don't want to pay that much'. Ok well they don't want to sell it for less, and it's their property. You'll have to go elsewhere. Sounds like you're happy with that so what's the problem?
> Any dealership that tried to stick me with such a markup not only would blow the sale, but would not get my business in the future.
Which is a completely valid reaction and the risk the dealership takes, and ultimately when the price rises to the point where they no longer attract buyers, the market corrects. That will be soon as the fed raises interest rates.
> In my not so humble opinion, while the used market can do what it may, MSRP is MSRP.
The S stands for “suggested”, and that suggestion is based on an inherently fallible prediction of future market conditions.
> I do not appreciate profiteering.
Capitalism is profiteering. The MSRP is profiteering. The only difference is who is profiteering, and when.
Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.
> why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer?
Because my understanding is they own the cars, once they're delivered from the manufacturer. They own the asset.
It's because they're collecting rents from having state legislation pretty much guarantee they're the only way to buy a car brand (other than Tesla). And though collusion might be hard to prove, it's pretty obvious to a shopper that the price transparency from the Internet is just as potent a weapon for dealers as it is for shoppers.
People are also buying up all the inventory of available cars and flipping them at CarMax for a profit. Look on CarMax and you see loads of brand new cars with 3-6K markup. That's who the dealerships are competing with.
>but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer?
Because the manaufacturer decided to not raise the price. This means the next person now has the ability to raise the price.
Market conditions by an enforced middle man
The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay.
The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
People don’t want to buy other cars just because the dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the manufacturer too
If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure
Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite sneer quotes.
People here love passive aggression.
If you want to call people out for passive aggression, well, that’s your choice, I guess. Not what I’d do, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
A major part of passive aggression is being subtle with hostility to avoid being exposed. If anything calling it out is poetic justice, but you’re welcome to just let it happen.
I was hoping to buy a new car this year but frankly, there's nothing wrong with my 2012 Nissan Altima right now. I'm going to wait and hope that this craziness subsides soon.
Likewise. Toyota Auris 2011 owner here. Does what I need it to do.
Not even sure what I’d replace it with, but there’s nothing I’m looking at that comes close to justifying it’s cost versus just keeping this running.
Yaris 2007. The only things we needed to change on it in 5 years were filters, tyres, brake pads (previous owner braked a lot), a corroded brake line (previous owner kept it outside), and a stolen windshield wiper (including arm), for which we used one from a defunct Citroen C3 (had to use a saw to make it fit).
The aluminum engine is great for fuel efficiency, and the chain transmission instead of belt is convenient.
Also Auris here, but somewhat younger. The car is boring, but that's because it's supposed to be.
My previous Auris got stolen so I shopped around for a while, but couldn't get the proper price/getting out of my way ratio out of anything else.
I agree - it's definitely not the right time to be getting a new car if you can help it. I said to myself I'd drive this car for at least 10 years...what's another year or two to let prices come back to earth.
In few years when petrol and disel cars get banned in 1st world countries -> gonna buy my dream car for peanuts.
My country does not care about the climate (Poland).
Thats just reality. One man’s trash is anothers man’s treasure.
Poland is in EU, so your dream car will be a lawn/garage queen unless you plan moving to Russia or Africa.
Poland being in EU doesnt stop it from breaking EU laws left and right.
Im not saying its good but thats just how it is.
Poland was always a market for used cars from Germany, this will not change.
If you can wait tell a dealer to put you on a list for allocation at the retail price.
Yep, hanging in with our 2014 Ford CMAX PHEV and 2007 Volvo XC70 for now. I'd love to have a new car, but it just doesn't make sense given current pricing and the fact that we don't actually drive that much.
Instead of paying a huge premium on a new car, I bought a zippy electric scooter. Lots of fun, and faster than driving when traffic is heavy.
Makes sense. That car is the perfect car for my family. Electric range is enough to do most of our daily errands, taking the kids to classes, etc. But the gas range is enough to take family road trips.
And in my case, it also happens to have 100% support from Openpilot, which is a requirement for me.
"Specific new Toyota models are shipping with a new message authentication method that openpilot does not yet support. So far, this list includes: Toyota RAV4 Prime 2021+"
Just a heads up.
Oh thanks! I hadn't checked in a while. I'm not getting a new car anytime soon anyway so hopefully they solve it before I am ready!
I mentioned it above but I doubt it, it’s been an outstanding issue for over 2 years. It’s really difficult to circumvent the encrypted ECUs
I’m honestly not sure how OpenPilot is gonna stay in business on the long run. As others has mentioned, any of the new Toyota cars are eventually going to have encrypted ECUs. Also, I paid like $1K for Ford’s lane centering and it has been amazing on highways. I can’t imagine spending $3K for a comma 3 anymore.
I don't see them being in business long term either as all the cars start adopting their features. But I like the hackability. I actually run a fork right now that gives my Honda superpowers. Couldn't do that with a stock system.
Unrelated to price it's great to see PHEVs getting better and better on larger cars and drawing demand.
I've got a first-gen Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV which only gets like 17miles (ok more like 14 if the heat or A/C is on which is basically always) on electric but it makes a huge difference in overall mpg since I use the ICE on the highway and switch to electric in-town.
My one concern is that there's a huge question mark about what happens when the battery degrades over time. I'm happy to replace it when that happens but will be really bummed if my only option at that point is to put the same lower-capacity battery in.
Small battery like that won't be terrible to replace. I know for the 1st gen Insight, you can pick up those batteries for about $2000-2500. And usually when the car has a dead battery, the price of them is around... $2000-2500 cheaper than one with a good battery. Lots of people just drive them with bad batteries and still end up getting over 50mpgs.
I sure hope so. MSRP on the battery is over $10k right now from Volvo[1] although poking around some dealers have them as low as $8k. Maybe there will be aftermarket options in the future?
Sort of silly to hope for but if I'm lucky the battery will prematurely degrade within the 8-year hybrid warranty and they'll replace it for free.
[1] https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylind...
I want to buy an XC90 but there’s very few to none new ones available anymore, and 2023s are $10k more. Oh well.
We tried to buy one in fall of 2020, and we weren't able to get one until June of 2021, although we did actual buy it for MSRP (and after state and federal incentives, I think it was ~$34k total). It replaced a 2005 Honda CRV, and it's been great so far. We pretty much only buy gas on road trips (in hybrid mode it gets ~40 MPG), the car has crazy acceleration and is very fun to drive, and the final price was great. We had also considered a Model Y, which we would have wound up paying at least $30k more for - at its MSRP, especially with incentives, the value was great.
sounds like you might be able to upgrade to a Model Y for not much.
Supply and demand, yadda yadda, sure.
I can accept that the observed behavior on my end is "pay up or wait".
What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups.
I think they should be able to mark stuff up all they want. They just shouldn't be able to have laws enabling their status as forced middle men. If a consumer wants to pay extra through a dealership because they value something they provide so be it. If a consumer doesn't want any bullshit though they should be able to easily bypass them and go to the manufacturer directly.
> What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups
Why?
Because it's enforced via regulatory capture. Ford, as an example, has had a hell of a time fighting with it's own dealer networks over behaviors they do not condone. It would be different if Ford could sell direct to consumer.
In many states car dealers are either the single largest or one of the largest groups that donates to state and local politicians. They use those markups to make massive donations to politicians ensuring there are middle men laws on the books guaranteeing they can continue to charge more markups in the future.
Many people would rather their money go to the people actually designing and building the product their buying, ideally maximizing the value of their purchase.
From many consumers perspective they're just paying extra for someone to rip them off in order to be rip them off again later.
If dealership provided an genuine value the should be able to charge what they charge in fair competitive market conditions.
The idea of dealerships was to force car companies to spread the wealth.
For example if you purchase a car at a local dealer all the sales tax goes to the local taxing body (city / sometimes county). This generates a huge amount of money for public services.
Additionally the employees of the dealerships typically live in the same region further spreading the wealth.
Yes buying direct from dealer would be cheaper but eliminating dealerships nationwide would have a devastating effect on local municipalities.
Uhh no that's not at all correct. The taxes are paid to whatever jurisdiction you register your car. If you live in Texas and you buy a car in Wyoming the Taxes get paid to you local tax accessor. It doesn't matter if you buy it from a dealership or a manufacturer.
Manufacturers also have employees in the regions they sell because they need staff for their delivery and service centers at minimum.
The history of how we got here with dealership laws is long and complicated but basically boils down to starting with something useful like a verifiable local agent in a time when many small car manufacturers were selling essentially carts with primitive engines through mail order catalogs. Then slowly gaining political and economic power and protecting that power through local and state laws limiting competition and legally enforced monopolies. In short, corruption.
You'll notice many influential and wealthy lawmakers in state governments own dealerships. Unsurprisingly they're near uniformly anti-taxes and 'big government' so the "but dealership pay taxes" argument rarely holds sway as they're constantly fighting against it.
https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-deale...
Thanks I stand corrected. I see Laws have changed and local municipalities are now able to capture some of this revenue even with out of state vehicle purchases or direct from dealership purchases
Sales (or use) tax, at least in the U.S., goes to the jurisdiction you reside in. The location you bought it from is irrelevant.
I can’t speak for the quoted, but the dealerships are not creating the value that makes the cars desirable. They simply are in the right place at the right time and none of the extra money they get is going to improve the car in the future.
like a real estate agent?
You aren't required to use a real estate agent though (at least in my jurisdiction).
Because they are an oligopoly/they are forced on the economy.
Funny, when I tried out the range of hybrid Crossover SUVs (like the RAV4) in late 2020, I found the RAV4 Prime felt like driving a boat. It had a kind of inertia I didn't feel in other cars.
I ended up getting a Ford Escape Hybrid (not plug-in) instead, which I really like (then again, I guess it's a different kind of product, not being a plug-in hybrid)
I agree how good the Ford Escape handling is. I have the PHEV trim and it reacts so well. I also set my driving mode to Eco the moment I drive, easily my biggest gripe about the car is that I cannot set the drive mode to default to Eco. I tried the RAV4 prime and it definitely has a higher kick. Also the RAV4 has a higher torque level before the engine kicks on. But I find the Sports mode on the Escape to be just like the RAV4 normal but not sure why I need my car to accelerate that fast.
Perhaps the RAV4 Prime just defaulted to a more tame "Eco" driving mode, whereas the Escape was tuned to behave more aggressively by default. I tend to always switch the Escape to Eco mode anyhow. Now that I think of it, I'd be curious to compare them again with this in mind.
These are asking prices.
Dealers are putting high asking prices into these websites to anchor the negotiations at an unreasonable number. Gullible customers come in and feel like the dealership is doing them a favor by selling for "only" 20% over MSRP.
I really doubt that RAV4 SUVs are selling for 50% over MSRP in high numbers. Maybe one or two sales to people for whom money is no object who also, for some reason, won't simply buy a more luxurious vehicle for the same price. Don't let dealers fool you into thinking this is the new market rate, though.
I bought my (used) Toyota Corolla in early 2021...fortunately right before the used car prices hit an upwards inflection[0]. Every time I've checked the KBB value, it has increased.
One year ago today, it the trade in value is 12% more than I purchased it. Today, it is 36% more. This is wild.
Is the used car market equally bad?
yes, used car inventory is selling just as fast because there are no new vehicles
Not sure about the RAV4, but I strongly doubt people are actually paying some of the markups on the Prius Prime that I've seen.
Here's a real email exchange I had about a Prius Prime LE:
Dealer: We have one in stock!
Me: What's the price on it?
Dealer: The MSRP is 30119 plus 20k, tags, and taxes.
Me: Plus 20k?
Dealer: Yes that is the mark up on our Prius Prime. It can be negotiable, but have to be in person.
**
That looks to me like a number pulled out of their ass as an ad-hoc out-of-state spam filter. It worked. But I see no evidence that it has shit to do with the actual price that a human being would pay to buy a new car.
HN is a big place-- anybody pay 15-20K over MSRP for a Prius Prime in the past 6 months? I strongly suspect dealers are having fun touting their spam filter numbers as if that's some kind of real car price...
I bought one last Fall for sticker price and as the commute to my daughters school is 50 miles rt we fill the tank once a month or so.
Basically a great gateway drug to fully electric, which is what I want when I can get an F150 which is not taking orders atm.
The pricing on the RAV4 is nuts. For that commute, you could sell it and buy a used low-range EV, like a 2018 BMW i3:
https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018
and end up with ~$42K in pocket.
(It is particularly inexpensive because they significantly improved the range in 2019. However, the 2018 would easily do your commute.)
We ended up buying one in lieu of trading in an ICE pickup truck for a backordered electric F150.
To me, the crazy thing is that we could apparently sell you the used i3 we bought earlier this year for a 36% profit, and you could end up with a 60% discount on the i3 (vs. pre-Ukraine prices) by switching to it from the RAV4!
I assume that when anything goes wrong with a BMW, and I assume it will relatively quickly, the repair costs will quickly close the gap on any initial savings.
There's a lot less to go wrong in an all-electric vehicle. Not saying you can't have issues with fans or the seat-heaters (ahem), but you're not looking at an engine rebuild or even oil changes down the line
The original Fiat 500es were a train wreck, even for a Fiat. They were super cheap, but all the stories of the owners who carried around specific wrenches in the back to disconnect and reconnect the battery as the easiest fix finally convinced me to pass.
All of this must be very geo-specific. Driverbase seems to geo by IP and prices around here are about 8k over MSRP, if they are even available.
> the commute to my daughters school is 50 miles rt
That means it takes an hour to drive there and back?? Twice a day?!
I imagine they take a round trip, there and back, once a day.
This
you should probably at least consider selling it according to these numbers.
Holy crap, school is 25 miles out?
27 actually, but only through kindergarten, bc Montessori. First grade will be 8 miles.
If it's selling for so much does that mean Toyota (the company) is missing out on a ton of margin that the dealerships are making?
In theory, yes. But Toyota is positioned as a mainstream value brand. They don't want to damage their brand image in the marketplace by raising MSRP just because they temporarily can't manufacture enough to meet demand.
For that money the Lexus NX 450h+ is probably viable. And would probably hold a higher resale due to the Lexus badge.
lol, no. If you pay a massive markup over msrp, you've just lit that money on fire when things normalize and you go to sell.
As a side note, from a European perspective, Japanese cars seem to be so far behind in terms of technology that the only reason to even consider them is their reliability.
For the price of Toyota RAV4 one could get either a 7-seater Škoda Kodiaq[1], or a fully electric Škoda Enyaq[2], both of which are more practical and more premium inside.
The simplicity of Japanese cars is or at least was part of their design philosophy: simple and reliable. And I really appreciate that. I know little about Skoda but branding wise I would not put it on par with Toyota.
> I know little about Skoda but branding wise I would not put it on par with Toyota.
In many parts of Europe, Škoda is considered "the European Toyota". Because it's made by Volkswagen Group and uses the engines previously tested by its more premium brands – such as Porsche, Audi, and Volkswagen.
Are Volkswagens supposed to be reliable? I had one and it was in the shop every few months. Worst car I ever owned...
Toyota have been strange holdouts against electric cars for some reason; they've previously backed hydrogen which is far less practical now.
Toyota's argument has been that with a limited battery supply, you get more fuel use reduction by building lots and lots of hybrids than by building a few electric cars. I'm not sure they're wrong. (Of course we do need electric cars to be in the mix to get to long term targets.)
Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity). Mazda is even worse.
Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, VW, et al seem to have an extensive lineup of electrified vehicles. Yet, they still seem very hard to come by in this market.
> Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity).
In Europe, there is an all-electric Honda hatchback:
https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e
> Mazda is even worse.
And an all-electric Mazda SUV:
https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30
But both of these models are hardly competitive.
None of which are hybrids.
Yeah, plug-in hybrids (PHEV) are considered "the past" in Europe:
https://electrek.co/2021/09/20/skoda-abandoning-phevs-per-ce...
This is so weird. Currently only the wealthy are driving the RAV4 Prime and they love it! It is like a status symbol. The RAV4 was supposed to be an economy vehicle. $72K!!! Nothing makes sense anymore.
RAV4 Prime looks good.
I probably should plug its competitors: Hyundai Tucson PHEV and Ford Escape PHEV. They're cheaper and roughly the same size. They don't have the insane acceleration of the RAV4 prime, but they accomplish the goal of going from A-to-B with 40ish miles of all electric range + gasoline backup.
If you're willing to sacrifice the acceleration, the Hyundai Tucson PHEV should be competitive. Ford Escape PHEV is FWD only and also slower, but its the cheapest of all 3 options.
Sub 8 second 0-60 is needed on backlane country roads to enable safe passing.
Having said that, I mainly drive on city streets and interstates now days, but I still understand why someone would want a car with a little pep.
Funny how EVs have changed the game on performance. I don't think anyone sells an EV with a 0-60 over 8s, and one can pretty easily get a model 3 with ~ 3s 0-60. That was supercar territory not so long ago.
Very happy with the Escape. I thought I’d miss the 4WD but honestly the one time I drive to the mountains or something is usually in May-September and FWD is perfectly fine for that in the PNW. The 40 mile range is amazing for a mild climate commute and driving around the city. I still haven’t added any gas and I’ve had it for 6 months. I considered the Prime but I cared much more about the price and getting one this year
My only concern with PHEVs is that gas goes stale. That gasoline in your tank has now started to undergo all manner of nasty transformations that will clog fuel injectors, ruin fuel pumps, etc.
It can be combated somewhat with fuel stabilizers, but it's absolutely a concern.
It takes months for gas to go stale though.
Just "don't charge" your PHEV once or twice, and you'll cycle through the gasoline. Pretend its an ICE vehicle about once every 3 to 6 months and you should be fine.
You probably have a road trip / beach trip where you were planning to use its gasoline tank anyway in that timeframe. You only need to travel ~300 miles to cycle through most of your gas tank.
For those looking for an alternative, I highly recommend the Ford Escape PHEV. It’s about 12K cheaper with the federal incentives. You lose out on some stuff like AWD and one recall, but overall the compromises were worth the 12K difference. The car handles very well and remote app is free. With the electric range and my habits, I would need to get gas every 6 months. I get over 40 mpg if I run on gas (in the summer).
I've been helping someone shop for a car and the Escape PHEV has been on the top of the list of considerations. Agreed its a great alternative, but its basically impossible to find as well. Most ford dealerships are charging ~20% over MSRP for it and there are also wait lists for it. I've never seen one in person.
Ahh that’s a shame, it looks really nice in person too (I prefer it more than the RAV4). I managed to snag one before the gas price exploded so I’m sure the demand is so much higher now
> I get over 40 mpg if I run on gas (in the summer).
I don't think that's a fair number. It seems cost/mile or carbon/mile would make more since, since that number assumes electricity is free.
This number is only factoring gas as a energy source. The combined mpg (what they call it when they calculate electric usage too) is easily over 150 mpg which is “cheating”. But to put it into perspective, my car can run over 400 miles on a 11 gallon tank without ever touching an electric outlet.
> This number is only factoring gas as a energy source.
Wow, that's great! I didn't realize ICE tech has improved so much. That's better than a new little Ford Fiesta, weighing nearly half as much.
Small hybrids like a Prius can go over 50 mpg consistently. Hybrids are so good from a gas standpoint. At these gas prices, it’s a no brainer to get a hybrid IMO.
Why don't they use these engines in standard cars? Or are there some shenanigans involved that do require some electrical power?
You need the “electrical” aspect to get these efficiencies. There’s a couple aspect of it that gives it a great mpg. Engines naturally have a range of rpm and load that makes it extremely fuel efficient (worse to best can be over a 20% difference). Traditional car makers tune this to be around 60 mph since that’s the typical cruising speed of the average American. With a hybrid, you can force the engine to run at this optimal performance regardless of speed. Second aspect is regenerative braking which recovers a nontrivial amount. Lastly, with a electrical motor, you can tune the acceleration curve to use more electrical motor more than the engine to reduce acceleration deficiencies. FWIW, most hybrids sold in the US (maybe globally?) are not pluggable. It has an engine, electric motor, generator, and a very very small battery pack but standard hybrids are not pluggable (they never touch an outlet).
> The car handles very well and remote app is free
Do they have option of not remotely controlled car? )
I’m not sure, I think every modern car from what I know has cellular capabilities built in regardless of brand. You don’t have to opt in for the Ford Pass (the remote app) and can remote start the vehicle with the key fob (remote start is included)
Wild. Reminds me of the lines for 2nd gen Toyota Priuses in the early 2000s, and also the early Highlander hybrids. What's so great about the RAV4? Subaru Outbacks are basically SUV sized these days, with arguably superior AWD to the RAV4. That's what I ended up with when I was buying a few years ago. It's not hybrid, but $30-50k buys a lot of gas, and we don't do many miles. If you did a bunch of miles (commuting?), I'd think you'd want something more aerodynamic.
> What's so great about the RAV4?
It has 42 miles of electric range. Prius Prime only has 25. So you can have an SUV, have electric, and have a gas engine for long trips.
comparing an outback to a rav4 hybrid or plug-in hybrid is not a very direct comparison. although I agree the subaru awd is superior, I am paying a lot more to keep my high mileage forester on the road than i would a Toyota.
The 2014 RAV4 EV MSRP'd at $49800 before government incentives. They had 100 mile range, Tesla powertrains, but no DC charging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Crazy to think what PHEVs goes for now.
We purchased a 2022 Toyota Sienna from our local dealer and paid MSRP for it after a 3+ month wait for it to arrive. Don't know if that's bc the sienna isn't as popular or if it's the dealers policy to not over charge...
I bought an SUV at MSRP in August 2021 and, after a year of use, can sell it today to Carvana/Carmax/Vroom for at least $5-10K more than what I paid for it, and probably even more if I negotiate a private sale. The car market right now is bonkers.
I subscribe to https://www.realcartips.com/news/ to monitor new and used prices. No affiliation whatsoever.
As long as you people (and I mean that specifically, wealthy white collar professionals who want a crossover are THE #1 target demographic for this thing) they will keep doing it.
As long as you people they will keep doing it?
There was supposed to be a "keep buying them" in there.
The PHEV in Ireland was €52k when it released in Jan 2022, I ordered it 5 months in advance seems like this model was way cheaper in US and now reaches same price as in Europe?
Probably a combo of things:
1) Prices in the US don’t include tax.
2) Ireland is also an expensive place to purchase a car because of VRT. RAV4 PHEV is €47k in Germany for example.
3) Lastly, could be some spec differences between the cars that account for a difference, as in my experience, cars in Ireland aren’t always the same specs/trim as other areas (but I could be wrong about Toyota, I don’t know).
You might want to check the news - the euro and dollar are at parity now. One of these has sold for $96k, it’s dealerships taking advantage of demand.
Tried to find one of these in my area but was told they are only being sold in certain states like California. I ended up going with an Audi Q5 PHEV at MSRP. No regrets.
Pretty much all cars in new york are like 2-6k over MSRP, and thats for non-luxury brands.
The best I've been able to find is 1.5k over msrp with some other restrictions.
We have laws in Australia that stop this sort of unhinged price rise... but yeah... I'm waiting in excess of 13 months for my Rav4 Cruiser
Look, greed knows no bounds. My country's government gave car importers tax exemptions to bring electric and hybrid cars and what do you think happened after that? They were selling them almost 100% over market value.
What happened after that? The market didn't even bother asking anything about them and with electric bills ramping up, the opportunity of somewhat have a seizable market for electric cars was lost.
Whoever think we'll phase out regular cars by 2035 is either lying, being naive or getting something out of it.
In any supply & demand market, pay close attention to what's happening at the luxury segment. Across the board, the bubble is imploding in watches, exotic cars. Soon they won't have a supply chain problem but the incoming tsunami of boomers drastically reducing their consumption as they cannot rely on pensions and social security going forward.
I am also noticing the same pattern in luxury real estate. I see listings routinely sell below the asking price or not selling at all. There is a cash crunch coming and the rich are urgently putting up their items for sale.
what you think I rap for to push a f'ing rav4?
yeah, actually...