Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids?
I'm at a crossroads in my life. My wife and I are trying to figure out if we should move back to California or move to Germany to be closer to her parents.
A bit of background: We're in our mid-30s. Both in tech. I'm a software engineer. She's a product manager. I'm American and she's German. We met in SF in 2014 and left together in 2017. We traveled for a while, then moved to Amsterdam where we live now. We have a 1 year old daughter with another on the way in October. We don't plan on having more kids after that. We'd like to leave the Netherlands soon, but haven't decided yet if we should move back to California or move close to her parents in Germany.
There's tons of variables to consider, but the 2 main ones I'm focused on right now is the tradeoff between family support vs career prospects. In short: if we move to Bavaria, my wife's parents would be a huge help with our kids. They're natural and eager grandparents and they're great with our daughter. But, they live in a small village in Bavaria. If we moved to Germany, I assume we'd want to be close to them, so we'd end up in a similarly small village near them.
My family is scattered around CA and NY and, while it'd be nice to be closer to them, I don't think we'd get nearly the same kind of natural support network from them. If we did move to CA though, I assume we'd move closer to either my Dad (down in San Diego) or my Mom (around Sacramento).
On the career side, I'm assuming our career options and pay would be a lot higher in CA. I work as a senior eng at a large tech company and based on levels.fyi, it looks like my SF colleagues make somewhere between 2 and 4 times what I do. I know money isn't everything, but I've experienced the pain and stress that not having enough causes. I see it with all my family members now. Since moving to the Netherlands, I haven't been able to save or invest nearly as much as I could back in CA. Maybe it's the American in me, or a vestige from my childhood, but I feel uneasy not building more wealth. Money smooths everything over - from relationships, to the options you have available, to the time you can buy with it. But, that additional pay would come at the expense of being more on our own raising our kids, which adds another set of stressors and difficulties. Additionally, for the sake of our kids, we think it'd be good for them to have more involved relatives.
Any SWE parents out there who have insights? How hard is it raising kids in CA if you have limited family support? What's your quality of life in CA as a parent? Does cost of living eat up all the additional money I assume we could make? We'd eventually like to buy a house, but the markets seem so crazy that even with the pay raises I wonder if we could swing it.
What about quality of life and career prospects in Germany? Anyone living there have any insights? Since we'd be looking at being closer to my wife's parents, I think we'd need to find remote work, so that would also be a limiting factor. I'm assuming we couldn't build as much individual wealth, but perhaps the services of the state compensate enough for that and I should let go of that obsession? Move to Germany. Probably you had to move a bit earlier for you to enjoy the full parental leave here, but grandparents will be a great support. Do not worry much about the small village, actually use the opportunity (lower costs) to invest in your German (learn as much as you can with classes and talking with the people around you). Quality of life in Germany is much better than in the USA. Kita places are hard to find in Berlin, but you will be probably more lucky in a small town. When you daughter will be 6 she will start school, and in Germany kids cannot skips school days, so you will be forced to stay put except for the short holidays during the year (when everybody is travelling too), my suggestion is to see Bavaria as a starting point to visit Italy, Austria, Germany and other countries around (at least for the first years). Regarding careers as SWE you both should not have any problem. Worst case scenario they will require you to go to the office for a couple of days once the pandemic is finished, but it will be quite hard to enforce that :) Also your kids will not do shooters drills in school Yeah, the US sounds rather hostile to raising children, from everything I hear. Not just the school shootings, but also being unable to play outside, no biking to school, and the way politics seems eager to politicise everything about education there. I'd definitely pick Germany. Actually, I'd pick Netherland, because that's where kids are apparently the happiest in the world, but Germany sounds like a great alternative. And grandparents nearby is a boon to any young parent. "Yeah, the US sounds rather hostile to raising children".... As a lifelong US citizen with three kids of my own, I do feel there there is some truth here. In my opinion most of the school systems across the USA have shifted to treating children as burdens instead of blessings. I would argue this has happened enmasse in the culture at large and getting worse over the last 20 years. Perhaps a big portion of the problem is that we don't take good care of our teachers first and foremost. Is rural Germany friendly towards foreigners, especially non white ones? I've heard in Germany (and Europe in general) you'll forever be a stranger, while America is more of a melting pot and immigrants are allowed to become Americans. No experience of my own, as I am German, but there are idiots everywhere, including Germany. Before I start, I let me emphasize that I do not condone what I am going to describe, I am just describing it from my perspective. I think it's more important how you dress than the color of your skin. If you dress in your home country's traditional clothes, you will probably experience more hostility than when you are wearing western clothes. The color of your skin will also be a factor, certainly more so than in the US, but usually hostility is based on your assumed (based on your looks) religion and values than the actual skin color. In the end, people are tribal, in rural Germany more so than in cities, and whether they accept you and how they treat you depends on whether they can relate to you. I think language is the main factor why immigrants often will be strangers forever. Your social circle will be very limited if you don't speak German near-perfectly. But I would assume the same in the US if you don't speak English very well, and even then it's very difficult. At least that's what I have heard from Germans who moved to the US. In bigger cities there are usually local expat communities where English is spoken, but you won't find many in rural Germany (unless you are close to a US military base or similar things). I think the best way to find them is on Facebook. I think people around the world underestimate just how much support there is in the US for things like "broken English" and immigrants generally. There are some high-profile political counter-examples, of course, but by and large, immigrants still find the US much more welcoming to immigrants than most other countries. That doesn't mean it's safer, and we still often struggle with delivering health care, but it's a weirdly welcoming place. > The color of your skin will also be a factor, certainly more so than in the US You sure about that. Out police force is known for being more liberal about shooting people based on skin color. I'm not German so I won't argue with you but I don't get the impression that there's as much institutional racism there. Darker skin tones are very rare in most parts of Germany, especially in rural areas. There are lots of immigrant from Turkey, southern Europe, Asia and northern Africa, so it's not like everybody is pale white. But truly dark skin is something most people are not used to and will definitely stand out. Much more than in the US. Police is known to use racial profiling in many cities - which race also depends on who is controlling the illegal drug market in that city. There are many people complaining about racial profiling. Police shootings are not an issue though, for any skin color. Broken English is very accepted in the US. Some would go as far as to say that there is good feelings for those who try to speak the language after all, most Americans were immigrants a few generations back. I think every European country has a naturalisation process similar to the US. And the US clearly has no shortage of xenophobia, considering the support for the previous president there. How much you will truly be accepted depends a lot on where you are. Some places, like New York or Amsterdam, are very cosmopolitan. Rural areas often a lot less so. Munich probably more than the Bavarian country side. > no biking to school What is the rationale for this? Helicopter parent fear of the boogieman. A few messed up kidnappings of children in the 70s caused a news media frenzy and now everyone is afraid of anything that moves. Heck, a neighbor's small daughter crashed her bike and started crying near me. I went out to help and immediately turned around as a 25 year old dude because honestly I didn't want to go to jail. It's essentially impossible to be a single man alone in the presence of a small child. It's way too risky these days. We've fallen to commoditization of "the village" services. No more are people taking care of neighbors children out of friendship or helping someone build a fence, etc. We now pay for everything and with that, our duty to our fellow neighbors/man/even family has eroded. We're isolating and compartmentalizing every relationship and every interaction and I personally believe it's the doom of our cooperation as a people in the US. From what I understand, US cities are generally not designed with bicycle infrastructure in mind. Bicycling is seen as a dangerous activity for the real enthusiast, rather than something that everybody does. > Also your kids will not do shooters drills in school This. Also you will pay a bit more taxes but since you have kids, those taxes will be offset by the plethora of free or cheap services you will get for your children: kindergarten, school, and higher education. Good grandparents are underrated! Bavaria, for the following reasons, IMHO: 1. Family in a quality German rural setting: Over the long term, healthy and functional family relationships are meaningful source of fulfillment, and make everything else in your life just a little bit easier. In combination with the quality rural life in many areas of Germany, it is a healthy foundation for friends, family, and children. 2. A geographically independent career: Depending on your career choices, and if money is a priority for you, you can make great money while being geographically independent. There are many different ways to accomplish this depending on how much time/effort you wish you invest, and which options you would consider. 3. Quality of life: While I am generalizing here, IMHO, the quality of friendships, family, and social connections is better in Bavaria than California. Of course this depends on your exact situation, which street you are living on, where your family & friends live, the social infrastructure of the town, etc etc. 4. Better health and safety in Bavaria: as can be found in public statistics. 5. Social development for children in Germany: For the most part, I find the quality of the social upbringing and education system in Bavaria better than California (again, generalizing, as there are bad and good patches anywhere). Speak with a few high school graduates from California and from Bavaria, and note your observations. For example I observe: How mature are they as young adults? How well-adjusted are they? How grounded do they seem? Background: I am a career mentor with long-term US and German experience. You forgot that Bavaria has still a travel warning advisory, due to incompatibilities with the German constitution and their police ordonances. https://www.lawblog.de/archives/2017/07/20/bayern-endloshaft... Rather move to one of the democratic german states, where the police cannot put you into prison forever, without trial. Not trying to justify that law (and I'm not a fan of the Bavarian "one-party-state" either), but I want to mention that "the police" can't put you into prison forever - they need to get it reapproved every three months by a judge. Plus, if you're the kind of person this law targets (a suspected terrorist), you would be well advised not to move to the US either... The persons affected by the law so far are normal citizens, certainly not terrorists. I'd like to echo what the other commenters said when they say consider the education of your kids. I'm from the US, but student taught in Germany while I studied abroad. The quality of the education and the sheer amount of resources Germany gives its youth is something to be admired. They will receive a quality education, have recess, and have extra curricular activities that are holistically incorporated into their education. They will not have standardized tests shoved down their throats from a young age (though there are standardized tests in Germany but their purpose and implementation is much different), active shooter drills, and lack of resources (think school counselors, textbooks, food, extra curricular activities). My experience is based off of working in 4 different schools in the Berlin area over the course of 6 months, so my experience in limited. German society is far from perfect, there are many valid criticisms of how they do things there. But, having experienced both the US and Germany there is almost no comparison in terms of how young people are brought up. As far as your salary goes, I hear you. I'd like to return to Germany, but know I'll make far more money in the USA. I have heard that senior devs in Berlin can crack the 100k euro mark, though there are taxes to consider. I would still say it's worth it. You will have time to spend with your kids, you won't be worked to death, you'll be seen as a human being and not simply a cog. There are some exceptions to that, some German companies genuinely suck while some US companies are great with their work/life balance. But, your chances of finding a healthy balance will be much higher in Germany. Best of luck to you! Cost of living and quality of life will be much better in Germany, unless you count talking to your kids from the rear view mirror during a traffic jam as bonding time. As an American living in Germany, I have also heard from Americans that even good German schools are too rigid and inflexible. You should consider what the schools look like and how they could be better in some ways and worse in others. Flying to New York from Germany isn’t much different from CA, so I wouldn’t worry about that.
I think the family support in Germany is worth having, too. Any chance you can work for a US company remotely? California Über Alles
As a person who lived both in Germany (Baden-Württemberg) and Califorina I will strongly suggest California. Here are some pluses: - California has better salaries - California has much more opportunity (starting company is easier, etc.) - California has much nicer weather. And beautiful coast and mountains. And desert (Palm Springs and Coachella Valley area) is great too. - California is in US (thus you can move anywhere else) - Your kids will have more opportunity when they grow up - Health care is much much better - yeah insurance is a problem but actual care is much better. When you end up in hospital you will see that California's 2:1 to 4:1 ratio of nurses to patient is much much batter than Germany's 10:1. - California is much more diverse than Germany and that helps with your personal growth. California Uber Alles!! California always and forever. There is indeed gold in them thar heels, no matter what they do to San Francisco. Los Angeles is vibrant, yet car laden. Money is way better in California, and you won’t be seen as — uncivil, overly ambitious; too American, with American expectations, and a workaholic. In Europe they work to live, here we sleep in the factory or the offices. You can incorporate a new agency in seconds! USA #1 30000* Germany. You get like an entire month paid vacation. Companies are incredibly thirsty for talent there and job security is high. The people are very nice and the job pay isn't worse enough to worry about being poor. Most large cities are within a few hours of whatever small town, so you don't have to be in the middle of a field somewhere if that isn't ideal. And for your kids the education system is waaaaaaay better. More importantly what does your wife really want? * Paid vacation * Paid maternity leave for both parents * High job security (it's hard to fire someone) * Working health care system which doesn't cost you anything if you get sick These are big reasons for Germany. And with remote work you don't have to work for small companies in the small Bavarian town you are moving to. You can work for any in Germany or sometimes even in Europe or the US. She's quite torn. She doesn't actually like Germany all that much. She left about 8 years ago, and has never worked there. But, she's an only child, and she's very close to her parents. So, in addition to the support they could provide in raising our family, she feels guilty about leaving them in Germany. If it weren't for her parents, she said she would push for the US. For all its problems, she likes how friendly and open people are. She often complains when interacting with other Germans about how unnecessarily unfriendly and closed off they can be. We've discussed the possibility of bringing her parents to the US, assuming we moved there, but that would be a long process, and challenging. She would need to live there 5 years to qualify for citizenship, then she would need to revoke her German citizenship (which she would find very hard to do), and then the process of getting visas for the parents can take another few years. So we're looking at like a 7-8 year process. Her feelings about Germany do give me a bit of pause about moving there. I've always enjoyed myself in Germany, but my German is rudimentarily (I'm taking classes now to fix that) and I've never actually lived there, so I don't think I can rely on my experience as a visiting foreigner to my experience as an immigrant. You want your kids doing active shooter drills in class every year a few times like the fire drills we had? Or those incredible active shooter SIMULATION DRILLS, where they bring a guy with a fake gun in? > You get like an entire month paid vacation. More like 1.5 months realistically. Four weeks is literally the legal minimum. I'm on my way I really wonder how this thread would've fared if you had posted it at a different time. Because you posted it in the afternoon in Europe, so you probably received more attention from Europeans. However, as a German myself I'd agree with most of the other posters. Your (presumably) high US salary isn't everything (especially considering the high costs of eduction, health care, housing etc. in the US). Salaries in Germany are very good compared to other European countries (comparable to Netherlands), you can live a great life there. Probably not FIRE, but o well... (also think about how the world might look in 20 years wrt climate change) You posted that your wife has a split opinion of Germany, that Germans aren't necessarily the most welcoming (friendly yes, but it often isn't easy to become friends in Germany). That's why you should really look at least for a region/city that has a little higher population so that you can find people with whom you share hobbies. That would make it much easier to get similar-minded friends. And similar to what another poster said: There's nothing greater than letting your kids bike to school. Not long ago, my spouse was offered an academic position in southern CA. For us, housing was the veto even though the other aspects of the job including salary were better. The issue was that houses at the end of the international runway were a million bucks. To replicate what we have now would have required an hour commute and 5.5 million bucks. We also have kids so I think we are in a similar demographic. So, I think you definitely want to take a look at housing and schooling, particularly if you are not sitting on a large amount of cash. I also recommend you read the book "The Wealthy Barber". Food for thought... 700k in Santiago gets you: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6518-Plaza-Blvd-San-Diego...? 700k in Bavaria gets you: https://www.engelvoelkers.com/en-de/property/stilvolles-mode... Those property comparisons are way way off - Passau is in the middle of nowhere - if you wanted a house like that close to Munich it would cost millions and it's even a struggle to find one available. Housing in decent locations in Bavaria is very expensive and in very short supply compared to San Diego. I'm sure housing close to Munich is more expensive and I don't know Bavaria at all. The OP suggesting a small village is where they might end up so I picked what I thought was a representative property based only on the price and look of it. Given that the OP says "we'd end up in a similarly small village" do you still feel my comparison is unfair? I am a SWE in CA with 5 kids and no family support. We make it work…it’s hard but we have each other. Europe seems very different than US/CA for SWE so there’s likely a trade off there as well. One suggestion is to maybe focus on building up the initial wealth for a few more years while the kids are younger and then reassess. If you’re diligent you could get both. Family support/babysitting is helpful ideally until the oldest is middle school age where they then can start watching the younger ones. We also homeschool and I believe it’s illegal in Germany so that limits some education options. I'm a Software Engineer from Germany, living in Switzerland and Germany. Working in tech you'll have more than enough to live a very good life in Germany. While the absolute amount may not be as much as in the US, the amount relative to the average person will still be very good, particularly if you choose to live in the countryside, but also if you choose to live in the city. Quality of life is very similar to Amsterdam / Netherlands, so you don't have to expect huge differences there. Bavaria is a bit more on the traditional side, and you might actually notice that (e.g. shops close very early / not at all on Sundays). While shops in Germany are generally closed on Sundays, they are open late in many of the other states (10pm, or even 12pm in the cities). Career prospects are good to very good, particularly in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg (neighboring states), which are the most prosperous states in Germany. In the countryside, you may have to resort to Home Office or working in a Mittelstand Unternehmen, though. Most larger cities have a small startup culture if that is your thing. "My wife's parents would be a huge help with our kids. They're natural and eager grandparents and they're great with our daughter." This is absolutely priceless no matter where you live. I would also consider what's lined up in California. If at least one of you have an offer lined up at FAANG then go for it. Otherwise working remote in Germany is a better bet. Depending on your network in SF, you may be able to source contract work from there while working in Germany. If you can put up with not having local coworkers, you can get SF rates and pay small-town Bavaria costs and have her family to help with the kids. Even if you commute into Munich, software developers in Germany don't get paid any where near what they do in the U.S. One word of advice if you go down this path is to get very high quality tax advice. Contracting from overseas as an American involves the interaction between two tax systems, and it can be complicated. For example, if you don't structure the work in the right way you can end up paying U.S. self employment tax (about 15%) on your earnings. Consider a third option: Switzerland. Salaries will be considerably higher than Germany and you’re only a few hours away (by train) from Bavaria. The work safety wild be lower, though (similar to the at-will system in the US). This may make a difference since OP has kids. I’m with a similar background (30s, Indian(having lived in India, USA, Denmark and now Netherlands) with an Austrian wife, who I met in the US. I have a kid. I’d vote for Bavaria as well. But, I’m more curious to listen to why not Netherlands. Would you care for a chat over beer/coffee in the Amsterdam, Amstelveen area? Email on my “about” section of HN profile. I'm neither an SWE parent, nor American or German so I can't advice on anything related to those. Instead I think you should also consider this (ultimately more important I think FWIW): What nationality do you want your children to be? If the thought of your children growing up to be Germans is unbearable to you but if the thought of your children being Americans is acceptable to your wife then you should chose CA, and vice versa. A lot of tension tend to occur in families where one or both parents come from a different culture than the one their children grow up in. If you plan to be in one country when they are young and then make a move to the other country when they are older then that is also something I would advice against, better chose one country and stick with it. At least in my experience, people that moved to a new country in (especially late) childhood will face many challenges, some of which may prove too hard. In general I think people should consider the effects for the children when making these kinds of choices. It has lifelong implications for them. On terms of pure nationality, they are already German through their mother. I guess that American too through the father. I cannot speak to Germany or California, but I can speak to being close to family. I know that has been invaluable to my wife and I. We were only 4.5 hours away when we first had our kids, but it seemed like a million miles. It was hard not having support or even just to drop the kids with family to run an errand or go to an appointment. After being back it is just amazing to have family close. Having that love, help and support will ease a lot of burdens. Even in a small village remote work should be an option. I would assume (but obviously don't know) that a small village in Germany has a lower cost of living than California so you should still be able to build wealth if you both get decent jobs. Just remember money isn't everything, and having family close will ease many of those burdens. Bavaria, having family around to help is a big big plus. For money do remote consulting. You can take on a couple of contracts at a time and will be making as much as faang employees in cash (more work, but in a few years you’ll be almost ready to retire) If those are the choices, I 100% move to Germany. California is a smoldering shell of corruption and handouts to buy votes from various demographics. Germany, despite the insane tax rate, actually uses their funds somewhat efficiently. BEFORE you go, I would absolutely establish residence in a state with no income tax like Florida... consult a tax accountant! I can't speak on employment prospects, but with todays "work anywhere" rebellion, I'm sure you can find remote work if nothing else. The mountainous parts of Germany are just plain beautiful. I would love the opportunity to move some place like that. If your wife's parents are located somehow in Germany near the Swiss border, consider to move to Switzerland or move to the border and be a frontier worker or a remote worker for a Siwss located company. Top qualty of life and the highest salary in Europe. https://www.glassdoor.com/research/app/uploads/sites/2/2016/... I've lived in CA for 22 years, just moved away, and have studied German language and culture and music for all my life and have visited several times. So I guess I can speak fairly well to this. Overall, it pains me to say this, but I'd have to choose Germany. Climate change impacts in California are already significant (wildfire smoke, water shortages, power grid issues), and are going to get a lot worse. Yes, the income will be higher in California, but so will the cost of living, especially the part about trying to buy a decent house, which is essential for long-term financial stability. You don't want to deal with the random capricious rent increases in the Bay Area, that I can tell you. And you don't want to deal with being constantly hassled and lorded over by some landlord. That's no way to raise a family. Germany has superior social programs, a real health care system, seems less likely to be taken over by a fascist government (at least in the near-term), vastly superior support for education and the arts, no gun nuts, and doesn't have a government crippled by Mitch McConnell. People actually care about the well-being of the entire society, there. The mass transit is, well, legendary. I think it's a very good bet that your overall quality of life will be superior in Germany. Find a remote job position in the US which lets you work in Germany. I have 3 small kids. I lived in the US for 5 years while working for FAANG. Once remote become a thing, I moved to Canada. Yes I took a paycut, but I still make more than what local companies pay in Canada. Moving back to Canada I was able to afford a house in a nice neighborhood with much better public schools than I had in the USA (95124 zip code). Germany. But maybe choose Munich over the village? You will still
be relatively close to your wife’s parents and the city has a decent startup/tech scene. I see where you're coming from but this kind of ends up being the worst of both worlds in some ways. I think the invaluable family support happens when you're down the street from grandma and grandpa and you've got a sick kid that needs somewhere to go while you're at work. It would be most ideal if the in-laws moved to Munich as well, although I realize that may not be a reasonable ask. Find a remote job with a major tech company / startup. Then, move to Germany. There is very little reason to trade location for salary in this day and age, especially with the hunt for talent and the movement to work remotely. I'm from California and once I got out of it and saw other places, I realize it isn't all it's cracked up to be, nor is it worth the additional cost. If you have healthy kids, they become mostly independent at age 4-5. You may want to consider a 5 year plan in Germany, or even a 3 year plan, and then reassess. It doesn’t have to be a one way door. You’ll have plenty of time to accumulate wealth beyond the next 5 years. And you’ll still accumulate some even in Germany. I'm on the DevOps/SRE side, but from my experience moving close to my wife's family (on her dad's side) has been wonderful. Though there aren't phenomenal prospects for onsight jobs in this area, I've been working remote with decent pay considering the cost of living in the area. Having grandparents for the kids to visit, not to mention cousins to play with, is far more rewarding to me than the ideal job. of course there are multiple factors, such as Do you like your spouse's family? Or do you think your family would be more or less beneficial for the kids/you/your spouse? in short, my family isn't yours. But giving up the opportunity provided by popular cities was good for me in the end. > it looks like my SF colleagues make somewhere between 2 and 4 times what I do. Why don’t you remote for a US company ? Do you want your kids to be German or do you want your kids to be American? Do you want your kids to have the experience of a close, extended family? Or do you want them to see family as people who are distant and aloof and doing their own thing? Do you want your kids to have autonomy - to be able to play outside with their friends unsupervised? Ride their bikes to wherever they need to go? These are the questions you need to be thinking about. Notice I never once mentioned money. You're a software engineer, you'll always have money. Oh sure, it'd be nice to have more money, but at what cost? And "career" is just a two syllable word for "job." I think you know what you need to do. I am also a parent. I would choose Germany without a doubt, and I have given it a lot of thought (Europe vs US (Seattle) ). Life is hard to predict, and if any of you are ever unlucky (any kind of health problem or accident), the kind of support you will get from the state in Germany, plus the help of your kids' grandparents is going to be invaluable. Maybe in the best case your life in CA is going to be somewhat easier/better (huge career success, lots of money, all kind of experiences for your kids). But in all the outcomes in the middle, specially the worse ones, Germany is going to be so much better, giving it a huge lead on the average future timeline. Family support trumps major amounts of things, including large amounts of salary banding. Also remember that when your kids are older (or, God forbid, the grandparents have passed on) you still could move back. Given what you've listed, I'd aim for Germany. Personally, I would move to San Diego over Sacramento or a small village in Germany. San Diego has wonderful weather, plenty of outdoor activities, it is very safe, and generally one of the best cities to raise a family in the United States. Family is nice, but if your father can watch the kids one night a month, that would be plenty. If you get bored living in a small village, you may end up resenting your wife's parents. I wouldn't focus too much on career growth. If you already traveled and lived in Amsterdam and still made it work, you're probably going to succeed in either place. I am myself a software engineer / team lead in germany ("near" cologne). A lot of what you said is correct I guess. In the US your potentially salary is a lot higher. Although if you plan to move to germany, bavaria is a good spot. Salary there is (at least what I know), higher than in the rest of the country. One thing that I would add to the equation is job safety. In germany you have a pretty high job safety and it is especially hard to get someone out of the job. But maybe you get both, a living near your wifes family and the support and a good paid remote job in some big US corp (if you prefer that). Depends on the lifestyle you want. Are you looking to make a ton of dough and retire early? CA is going to give you a better chance for that. Are you looking for a good quality of life for you and your children? Germany is better for that. You'll be working longer in Germany, so make your peace with that, but that's a small price to pay for your family to be able to put down roots and be around extended family. If it's any consolation, I'd bet a middle class existence in germany is a better life than even the average dev in CA can afford. I came here to say Germany as well. But so many others with so much more experience in Germany than me have chimed in. It’s pretty amazing how near universal the response has been. I’m curious how the answers would change if we shifted some of the variables. What if the asker’s Bavarian parents were elderly and less than the ideal support grandparents? What if it were his parents living San Diego that were the eager kid helpers? What if the family support situation was more “average” on bot sides, but located in either Bavaria or a less metrotech area of the US, say Spokane WA? So much support for Germany! Makes me want to move there even though I have no connection to it. Germany. Your daughters will be safer there. Your quality of life will be higher. People are just nicer (personal experience). Your access to world cultures is better. The education system is far superior. I cannot think of two things that are better in CA that you can't find within a reasonable proximity to basically anywhere in Germany. (I can think of one: sour dough bread is better in SF) You made it out. Don't make the mistake of coming back. The US is broken. I was in the same situation years ago, and went with Germany (berlin) over SF. I have kids as well, and my priority was to have time to actually be with them. I can always invest more in my worklife when they are teenagers and want to avoid me like the plague. I see a couple of people suggest working for a US company from Germany, I would advice against that. Work is a big social driver, so being disconnected from that, will make your time in Germany harder. I'm an American and I chose Germany without a moment's deliberation. Then I read your post to see if there were factors to favor the US, but all I see are points for Germany. As for the money, I don't know your personal situation, and I'm not going to ask. But on the surface, dual income one kid and you can't save? That's all I'm going to say. No stake in the game, but keep in mind that the time of day you're posting will have a biasing effect here (it's still 6-7am in CA) I just moved out of California because nothing I could make as a SWE would allow me to achieve my goal of owning a home there. When I left, home values for cheap junk real estate 30 miles from the nearest employer was pushing $350,000. Now they are half a million. Then in addition to that, the cost of living was nuts for stuff like food, gasoline, electricity, water, road tolls, bus fares, train tickets, sales tax, and state income tax. The worst part of California is you pay the taxes of a European country without the European features. The middle class healthcare is abysmal. The roads are car centric and poorly maintained. What little pedestrian and cycle infrastructure mostly goes nowhere. There is very little public transit and what they have is infrequent and runs for limited times. The schools outside the most affluent areas are HORRIBLE. Child care is insanely expensive. The colleges are over subscribed and over priced. Traffic is terrifyingly bad. There are some REALLY great parts about California though. The area is super diverse population wise so you can meet cool people. State parks are awesome. Beaches are great. Skiing and mountain biking are great. Tons of excellent national parks. Cheap but amazing wine. Extremely good food available all over the place from almost every country on earth. Great entertainment options. Concerts, music festivals, outdoor screenings, and musicals abound. Edit: Just checked again and the area I was looking at originally is now around $600,000 to $700,000 for a 3BR 2BA. Yeesh! 100% Germany. Quality of life is an actual focus of society here. You'll have more vacation days, more safety for your family and a more worry-free life. There's plenty of tech companies in Germany where English is the primary language. And if both of you work, you'll be very, very well off financially. Germany, without a doubt. California is going to get pretty ugly when the water runs out, which is already happening. Or when the 4-th awaited ring-of-fire event (9+ earthquake) will overflow the Diablo nuclear power station at the coast at 6m height above seawater. This is directly located at their major fault. Could be in the next 2000 years, but the latest 3 9+ events on each corners all happened short after another, just the 4th is missing (chile, indonesia, japan => california). Will CA have another 'big one' one day? No doubt. Is the state in a precarious position due to climate change making the entire region more arid? Definitely; but I don't think there's any science behind the 'ring of fire' events you describe. That's not how tectonic activity and subduction / slip earthquakes work.
' Same distance between San Diego and Crescent City as between Munich and Kyiv. Move to Germany.
First consider that almost all of Germany is close by. Germany is smaller than the state of California.
The support you get from her parents will far out weigh any career benefits. The value of having grandparents nearby who want to help cannot be overstated, especially once you have two kids. My wife's parents live 20 minutes away, and we're building a house for my parents next door. Do what is best for your family. Your career is now secondary. Germany will really struggle with an aging population in the next 10 years. Do you want you and your children to foot the bill? The heavy car culture in California is off-putting though. The aging population in this case are literally offering him free childcare. Bit of quid pro quo wouldn't hurt? Well it’s a trade-off that must be considered. The whole eurozone will have to tackle this issue as the number of retirees grows whilst the number of workers shrinks. The USA doesn’t have this problem so much. I don’t see how it can end without substantially higher taxes for anyone of working age. Exactly this. Europe is a gerontocracy. The worst part, full retirement of the baby boomer generation, has yet to unfold. Elderly care is already in crisis mode. Moreover, the generation now entering the workforce is even smaller than the one preceding it. Add to this the expensive political delusions about how to best fight climate change. Perhaps Germany is economically strong enough to stomach it, but in general moving to Western Europe is like boarding the Titanic. It is a beautiful ship, but the journey does not have a happy end. I've lived both places, currently in Germany. Pay is higher in CA but so is COL. QOL in Germany is night and day better than CA. I recommend Germany for sure. You have the great opportunity to move to Germany and enjoy their great benefits... Or are you planning to run away from the doctor' bills ?? How can you even compare Europe to US in software engineering context? Europe on average has miserable salaries and crazy taxes. If those taxes can avoid school shooting, that's worth it. Im not sure that the probability to become victim of a school shooting is higher than got hit by a car or beaten to deth in some dense german urban areas. I moved from west coast US to Germany last year and I'm very happy here. Reach out if you want to chat. You could live in Germany and get a Swiss G permit for cross border working. Germany. I ain't even gonna explain it. > I work as a senior eng at a large tech company and based on levels.fyi, it looks like my SF colleagues make somewhere between 2 and 4 times what I do. I know money isn't everything, but I've experienced the pain and stress that not having enough causes. There's a bit of a tilt so far towards Germany in this thread. Let me offer a counterpoint: you can go for a high salary in CA until your kids start at school, and then move to Germany. I'm estimating that you can net somewhere between $100k - $250k per year more in CA (partially depending how frugal you decide to live and you actual options, but you should really do the math yourself). Accumulating over 5 years (around when your kids start with primary school), you that can net you a fully paid off house in Bavaria. German here living in CA. My take is as follows (YMMV): - We'll live and work in CA until scrappy financial independence is possible in Germany (ballpark ~3-3.5M net worth). - Once we could comfortably retire in Germany, we'll decide whether to move back there or keep working just to stay in CA (due to cost of living FIRE in CA seems out of reach) - In some sense starting out in CA maintains more optionality (it'll be easier to move from CA to Germany than vice versa) Advantages of CA: - The weather - Monthly savings (pay - expenses; much higher than Germany if you avoid lifestyle creep) - Career opportunities (lots of interesting work) - Outdoors (subjective) - Food - If your kids grow up in LA or SF, I'd say there's a pretty good chance they'll stick around close by when they grow up - Vibe ~ more optimism about the future and the role technology can play - The earlier you move and buy a house, the earlier you can lock in your real estate taxes (Proposition 14 [2] renders CA hostile to those that 'come later'). Admittedly, it's already pretty late in the game. Disadvantages of CA: - Housing prices are 1M+ (although the market seems to be changing now that interest rates are going up [1]) - Homelessness - Getting into good public schools needs a lot of planning (including buying in pricey neighborhoods) - Related: kids in elite schools / social circles seem to be under a lot of pressure to perform from day 1 (IMHO a consequence of the winner takes all economy) - Life is work centric - Earthquakes - Air quality (traffic and wildfires) Advantages of Germany: - Great public schools & ~free childcare - Pretty safe environment (although debatable in some cities like Berlin) - Generally stable, good job security etc - Once you build real relationships with people, you may find friends for life - Clean air and water in most places Disadvantages of Germany: - House prices per median income are pretty high. It's particularly crazy expensive in cities if you want a single family home due to super low interest rates (SFH can cost 1M+ despite median salaries being much lower than CA) - Might be less "accepting" of foreigners (I live in CA and never feel bad about speaking with an accent as most people I work with do as well) - Germans start work and school at ridiculously early hours (I still recall walking to school in the dark every day in winter) - Rapidly aging population (although some is offset by immigration) [1] https://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2022/06/1st-look-at-local... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_California_Proposition_13 I did not recently consider moving to the US but I can relate my story about having moved from the Netherlands to Germany last year. My wife and I made the move from Amsterdam to Berlin. Both of us are working full-time and we have a daughter in kindergarten. We were both born and raised in different parts of Bavaria with our parents still living there. Being closer to family is also a recurrent topic for the same reasons you mention. To some extent this matches one of your possible scenarios quite closely. From my perspective I can list a few things to consider in random order: There are are definitely good opportunities for tech jobs in some regions of Bavaria. This is especially true for the metropolitan areas in and around Munich, Nuremberg, etc. You probably know better about the market in the exact region you are considering to move to. Some of the rural areas unfortunately don't have many jobs though. The pay is also lower in rural areas — on the bright side: so are the costs of living. Working remotely is a way to earn more and you say that you are considering remote work already. When applying to remote positions the the pay which you can expect from a German employer might not matter so much. You could potentially also apply to remote positions elsewhere, e.g. even in the US (some companies don't have strict timezone requirements). I personally stayed with my Dutch employer through a payrolling service. In any case, when living in Germany you will need to pay income tax and social security payments in Germany. Consequently, net salary is lower in Germany compared to the Netherlands (for the exact same gross income in my case). Especially health insurance costs significantly more. In turn, you also get more government benefits. One of these benefits is the "Elterngeld" which seems to be relevant for you and you probably know of. This parental allowance is paid for up to 14 months during parental leave for one or both parents. The amount is based on your net income during the 12 month prior to the birth of the child. Income in other EU countries also counts AFAIK. You receive about 2/3 of your previous net income. It is capped at 1800 EUR/month and you don't receive any if your net income is higher than a certain limit (which I vaguely remember to be 250k/annual net per parent). Since you are considering moving to rural Bavaria: Mind that childcare is far less pervasive than in the Netherlands. Creches might not exist close to you and daycare usually has shorter hours than the ones in the Netherlands. Even in primary school you might need to find someone to take care of your children in the afternoon. This seems to be possible in your case with family potentially being close by. Regarding your fear of not building enough wealth: There is definitely more state mandated welfare in Germany than in California. That includes pension. The general notion however is that it is still required to build up your own funds for retirement. Many people do so by buying a house or investing in ETFs, etc. Buying real estate for a family of four in small towns and villages should be doable on a tech salary. In cities you will likely need to make compromises. One thing to also keep in mind: broadband internet is not pervasive in rural Bavaria. In most cases it is good enough and many communities also have proper fiber deployed but I know plenty of people who struggle to get acceptable internet access — not great when working remotely. Germany and the Netherlands have a treaty to avoid double taxation when you move between the countries. A tax adviser is helpful in this scenario. I cannot tell you much about my experience yet because I am only in the process of filing taxes for the year of our move. Your question about quality of life can only be answered subjectively. I personally value the safety net that is the German welfare state. For instance I never in my life worried that I would get bankrupted by a medical bill. The same is true for job safety: yes, it is possible to fire employees and temporary contracts are a thing to some extent. However, employment contracts are regulated and I feel job security is balanced more in favor of the employee than in the US. Also the parental allowance which I mentioned above is great for families. Quality of life depends on your immediate surroundings as well. For instance, with the Covid pandemic I've found it relatively hard to meet people in Berlin. This affected quality of my life. In a small village you might struggle meeting like-minded people. Germany Any insights or reasoning why one place is preferred over the other? Homeschooling is illegal in Germany and its harder to avoid covid vaccines (idk if these items matter to you) The internet is not an unbiased sample, as Americans with personal grievances flock to threads like these to air their own frustrations. Also: should I have coffee or tea breakfast? Which one is better? Your comment contains no information, attempts to read the minds of others and assumes you can discern their motivations, and is tendentious. Sure it does, you just don't like it and attacked. I'm not seeing any grievances or frustrations being aired here, just mostly positive things about living in Germany. Ah, true. Comments like: >California is a smoldering shell of corruption and handouts to buy votes from various demographics. Definitely are just positive things about living in Germany and not airing of grievances by frustrated Americans. You are right, there's a negative comment about California. Maybe even two, in the entire thread. How does your original point about bias, sampling and people with grievances flocking to this thread stand up?