Ask HN: Why does my '15 MacBook Air have the same RAM (8gb) as a '22 McBook Pro?
We are now half way 2022 so I have been stating this for a decade. ( Probably some old HN comments somewhere )
DRAM Cost / GB hasn't been getting any cheaper. ( Not adjusted for inflation ) Unlike NAND at cost per GB, or Consumer CPU cost per core ( not a fair comparison due to die size difference but relevant in this context ), hence it is an expensive component in terms of overall system. You get higher throughput, lower energy, but not lower cost. In fact your 8GB LPDDR5 in latest MB cost more than the 8GB in 2015 MBA even adjusted for inflation.
And there are no current roadmap to suggest we could break this trend. While we could and are continuing to shrink transistors, you can only do so much with capacitor inside the DRAM. Unless we have some fundamental breakthrough, this will remain the case for DRAM in the foreseeable future.
I still remember I was called out and attacked for suggesting this in ~2012. That machines in 2020s will remain at 8GB.
In October 2019 I bought two 32GB 2666MHz DDR4 SODIMMs for my laptop for $140 each.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N124XDS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
You can now get a single 32GB DDR4 3200MHz SODIMM for under $120
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FBNQXC4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
Are you posting these links to suggest that the commenter is incorrect about prices remaining the same?
If so, I'm not sure comparing prices of DDR4 are the same thing, since the commenter was talking about LPDDR4.
* 64GB of 2666MHz DDR4 in 2019: $280
* 64GB of 3200Mhz DDR4 in 2022: $240
memory has been getting faster and cheaper, and it really wasn't that expensive to begin with.
I said cost not price.
You manage to pick the highest margin product with the biggest variation of pricing inside a commodity market to compare using two data point within a short period.
Compare this with CPU operations per second per dollar and it paints a totally different story
Your average consumer is not really using more than 16GiB of RAM, which was also an artificial limit for a while in laptops due to having to choose between LPDDR3 (power efficient, 16GiB limit) or DDR4 (larger capacities allowed, uses more power).
Apple and other manufacturers thus had to keep 8GiB models around so they had something to boost to entice you to the more powerful models.
So a few professional laptops went with DDR4 as LPDDR4 support floundered for years, but most stuck to LPDDR3 as most consumers would notice an extra 30 minutes of battery life on the spec sheet more than RAM they wouldn't actually use.
It's only with Ice Lake (low quantities) and Alder Lake (more available) on the Intel side, M1 on the Apple side, and Ryzen 4000 on the AMD side that it's as cheap (cost and battery life) to have a system capable of more memory.
But plenty of consumers still haven't complained about their 8GiB systems, so they still sell them.
Are you saying MBP is a machine for your average consumer? Whom is MBA for, then?
Are you telling me the 13", 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage base MBP is a professional machine? The Macbook Air's target market seems to me to be "I want a Mac, the cheapest Mac because I want to save money, but I'm also willing to pay double what a non-Mac laptop would be" with a secondary market of "I don't care about money, performance or longevity, I just want the lightest mac".
Personally I wouldn't recommend any Mac for the average consumer. If they just need "a computer", there's a number of perfectly servicable Windows machines for €600, while the Macbook Air starts at €1149, and if they want to play video games the Mac isn't really a candidate due to worse software support amongst games than Windows or even Linux at this point. Those are the two most common asks for advice for a computer I get.
If you need a Mac for professional creative use, or want a *nix system for development use, you already know what you want/need, and you're unlikely to be asking me.
I'm not asking you indeed. My point is that 8 GB RAM is not a professional machine and is incorrectly labeled. You seem to be restating this point.
MBP is supposed to be professional, but I can't imagine using a 8 GB machine. Even on 16 GB M1 RAM is the bottleneck and I get OOM errors.
Oh yeah, like my original stance was that basically the 8GB MBP exists to have a cheaper entry price, and to have something that's a no brainer upgrade to make users actually looking for a professional machine buy the next one up.
The op was "why does MBA have the same as MBP", your response was "consumer does not need more RAM than MBA has". My point is that MBP is not positioned for consumer, because if it is, then whom is MBA positioned for. What's your objection I still can't grasp.
This is literally their marketing strategy. The same thing applies to popcorn sizes at the movie theaters. I can't remember what it's called or find a reference to the strategy, hopefully someone smarter than I can provide it.
MBA is for people running Facebook Messenger and Instagram to use in coffeeshops, obviously :)
So average consumers.
Because 8GB still works fine and will continue to work fine for at least the next 6-7 years. Cheap Windows laptops and Chromebooks still come with 4GB ram.
I'm currently typing this on a 2008 MacBook Pro with a 2.5GHZ Core 2 Duo and 6GB RAM. It's playing a 1080P video on a second monitor and has 5 browser tabs open in two browsers. Currently using 4.7GB RAM and 60% CPU.
It may work ‘fine’ but really, a system with more memory works better. 5 browser windows/tabs and one video is not really a demanding workload and that’s already using over half of the machines resources.
No it is not a demanding workload. If you have a demanding workload I absolutely recommend purchasing more than 8GB of RAM, And Apple will gladly sell you a machine with more RAM if you need it. But for the vast majority of people 8GB is plenty, so that is what they offer on their base machines.
You must have a very different definition of "fine" than me. Only getting OOMkilled several times per hour is OK?
My company has tens of thousands of non-technical users using M1 MacBooks with 8 GB RAM and they don't have any OOM errors regularly, if ever.
It sounds like your use case requires more than the baseline. You may be the outlier.
The commenter didn't say they were getting hit with OOMs. Is this something that is happening to you?
I used to hit OOMs on my 16GiB Macbook Pro pretty regularly, but that was IntelliJ + Docker + MySQL + Chrome + Debuggers + Google Meet + Slack
Someone using Chrome + Facebook or even a dev writing e.g. Python in VS Code to run locally is probably less likely to hit that.
I have one of the first set of M1 MBPs with 8GB.
All day I run Chrome with 3 profiles (as many as 5) and 40+ total tabs (sometimes a much higher number), VS Code, SourceTree, 8 docker containers running various services for dev (7 native, one emulated x86_64), iTerm, Photoshop CC and XD CC.
I run everything I can in the browser including Slack, GMail, GCal, our PM tool, etc.
With all of that said, I don't even know what a "OOM" looks like. The only real performance issues I have deal with an inherited codebase (which does stuff it really shouldn't be doing) and docker-specific filesystem slowness (which is a known issue).
OOM on OS X looks like the OS popping up a modal dialog asking you which application you'd like to kill because you're out of memory.
OOM on Linux looks like the OS just killing the heaviest application if you have no swap, or grinding to a halt if you have swap and actually need to use it as working memory.
OOM on Windows looks like your system grinding to a halt because you're paging all the time.
Yeah, Docker in MacOS and Java are particularly memory hungry as a combination. We stand up our whole k8s cluster in docker desktop as a matter of course and I fear for my 32GB work MacBook.
Because unless your applications need to store lots of things in memory, it doesn't matter for performance. macOS is very good with memory management, so for a lot of use cases 8gb is simply sufficient. The system as a whole is a lot faster than the '15 Air.
That being said, the lowest config is often something that is just there to meet a price point for advertising purposes, not what Apple actually expects people to buy. They've been doing this for decades. 16gb was the "standard" in 2015 already for most machines.
For reference (taken from this: https://jcmit.net/memoryprice.htm )
1995: 4 Mb of memory was $129
2002: 256 Mb of memory was $34.19
For those who weren't around, the progress in both memory and CPU terms during the 90's was astonishing. Order of magnitude improvements every 2 years. We have nothing like that rate of progress now.
The 8GB in the newest model is way better than in model from 2015. Way higher throughput matters a lot with M1. Also, very fast NVMe means that swapping disk is way less painful than on older laptops, especially those with HDDs.
Still, 8GB is simply not enough for anything close to "pro" needs.
8 GB is more than enough for many workloads, especially web development, academics, and remote development (and for that matter, non-development workloads).
Why not increase the potential pool of buyers with specs that are acceptable to them?
Also, M1 Architecture over Intel taps into solid state storage speeds to aggressively use swap storage when mem pressure exists. It really seems to be smooth, I've not noticed much hiccups. You might remember folks getting upset at this a year back because of the unexpectedly high SSD wear that results.
I have a 16GB M1 laptop and my colleague has an 8GB M1 laptop of the same model. Guess which one of us has to be selective about number of browser tabs and other apps that can be open. I don’t mean to be glib here, but I honestly don’t know how 8GB is enough. Add Docker to the mix, and 16 starts feeling a bit cramped.
Because it’s cheaper that way. It’s generally the second most expensive component in the system.
Compression for memory on macs has probably removed a lot of this pressure to increase beyond 16gb.
For the arm solutions moving the memory on package also may be a limiting factor, since there is only so much space available.
Lastly since macs have memory fixed to the package or motherboard failure is expensive, since you’re replacing an entire system board. They have about a 1.5% afr.
I don't see the '22 MacBook Pro available with less than 16 GiB.
The base 13" model has 8GiB.
That’s the 2020 model, no?
It is. It's the first M1 model still with the touchbar and the old display. So far it hasn't been discontinued, but de-facto replaced by the current 14 inch model.
The 14in is 60% more expensive than the 13in for the base models and Apple are still selling the 13in as current on at least the regional website. So that doesn't count as replacing to me
True. I guess it's the slightly enhanced version of the M1 Air. Additional connectivity, touchbar and a fan for sustained loads. If that's not required, might as well save the $400 and buy an Air as they're the same in all other aspects.
The 13" MBP starts at 8GB.
Though it's still for sale, that is the 2020 model.
Under normal circumstances it doesn't affect much. Increase the memory on your configuration and move on.
However, when the supply chain is crunched (as it is now), Apple's build-to-order MacBook Pros take two months to deliver. This means that the only available models to purchase immediately from retailers are the low end models that don't cut it.
I doubt it will ever change though. There is more profit in keeping the price low for customers that don't know any better rather than accommodating business customers that need something workable immediately.
8GB is plenty for a browser with a few tabs, and a couple applications open. If you need more memory, buy more, right?
Why not?
8gb is the minimum and is still working fine.
Plenty of ram for plenty of use cases.
Not everything has the same CPU to memory balance.
I am going to give out different statement than the consensus being formed in this thread.
It is a criminal act by any manufacturer to sell a computer with 8G of memory specially when it is not upgradeable.
> It is a criminal act by any manufacturer to sell a computer with 8G of memory specially when it is not upgradeable.
So raspberry pis should be illegal? What about ESP 8266?
It's better! Don't fall for the "megabyte myth."