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Ask HN: Do you feel overwhelmed by the amount of information?

132 points by johnny_castaway 4 years ago · 78 comments · 2 min read


In the pre-Internet era, when you were curious about tech X, you'd walk to a store, skim through a bunch of books, pick the one you liked the most, and take it home. The whole process of searching took less than an hour, and then you were committed, because back at home, it was the only material about X you had physically available. If something wasn't mentioned in the book, you couldn't Google it, tough luck. And reading that book was genuinely exciting, because with TV and offline games being the only alternatives, it was your strongest source of dopamine. You'd be picking it up instinctly, just like today you pick up a smartphone, because it was the most mysterious thing to explore within your reach.

These days, you type X into Google, and you get hit with an avalanche of tutorials, ebooks, video series, paid courses, online lectures, all available constantly and immediately. Then you fall into the rabbit hole of ratings, reviews, comments, forum discussions, opinions, endless comparisons of X vs Y vs Z, and so on, and so on. Right from the beginning you get analysis paralysis, FOMO, and anxiety. When you finally pick something up, the amount of material about any given topic, unconstrained by the volume of paper, seems impossible to get through in a single lifetime. Instead of peacefully exploring, it feels like you have to force-feed yourself just to get to the end of it. All of that while trying to ignore that video in your recommendations about the latest breaking news, or the other one promising to teach you quantum physics in 15 minutes.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Btw. you could say, just turn off the Internet and buy a book, but can you really pretend it doesn't exist? And how long can you stick to it?

javajosh 4 years ago

>Does anyone else feel like this?

I have, and I called it "info gorging", and I would occasionally indulge in it. But the problem is that you don't fully integrate what you've seen with what you know or believe. At best, you've accumulated a set of superficial ideas to be fleshed out later. At worst, you've given yourself a feeling of preemptive failure, looking at all the things you could do, and yet not doing them.

>Btw. you could say, just turn off the Internet and buy a book, but can you really pretend it doesn't exist? And how long can you stick to it?

Old fashioned discipline starts in the mind. You must be ruthless with yourself, and make a determination: I'm reading this book, and if I'm not doing that, then I'm staring into space. There is no third option, no fidget spinner, no screen, not even useful distractions like cleaning. If you accept your wayward thoughts, but not indulge them, they will pass.

In many ways, information is like fast food in that it can overstimulate you, yet leave you wanting more. There is no other way out of this cycle than to acknowledge this condition and cut yourself off. You need strong faith in yourself and in the wisdom of the path you've chosen.

  • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

    > Old fashioned discipline starts in the mind. You must be ruthless with yourself, and make a determination

    Well, I think we're kind of in agreement here. I'd now need to essentially torture myself to do something that used to be a fun hobby, and required zero effort.

    > I'm reading this book

    Ok, but the problem is, _which_ book?

    Let's say you search for a JavaScript book on Amazon. It seems to yield more results than all the books they had in my local computer bookstore! Pick one at random? But what if it has low reviews? Pick one with the highest rating? But maybe it was published 2 years ago, so maybe it's already outdated? Anyway, I saw on HN that everyone is using Rust now, so perhaps instead I should read a book about that? That's the analysis paralysis I mentioned.

    • rg111 4 years ago

      > Ok, but the problem is, _which_ book?

      I have solved this particular problem but have myriads of others. (See my main comment on this thread.)

      First, when you are looking for a book in a particular topic, search Kagi/You.com, and sneak into 4/5 lists quickly. Some books will appear in almost all lists. Take a note.

      Second, append reddit to search term and look into 3/4 threads. Take a note of highly upvoted or "+1"d responses.

      Third, ask people you know who are experts in that topic. Ask 2/3/4 persons. They likely have read many books on that topic. Take a note of their top recommendations.

      Fourth, there are some titles ubiquitous on HN, twitter, Reddit, word-of-mouth in academia/industry. Such titles are The Algorithms Design Manual, Designing Data Intensive Applications, etc. When you look into a new topic, there will be 1/2 titles that you will instantly recognize. Take a note.

      Now you have narrowed down to 3/4 titles. Find them. Taste them, couple this with Third, and you find the most appropriate book for your situation.

      The whole process takes 20-25 minutes excluding the calls with people IRL.

      • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

        This is a perfectly good advice.

        But my point is, note just how many separate bits of information you're looking at to make the decision. 4 threads on Reddit, 4 threads on HN, and you're already in the hundreds of different opinions! All of them coming from people you don't know, with different background, different learning style, etc.

        Compare to going to a book store with ZERO external information, and picking the one YOU seem to like reading the most, without those hundreds of voices in your head.

        • scoutt 4 years ago

          But the problem is not the book itself. It's what you are looking for.

          If you are just starting into any given topic, then you just need a good book, not the perfect book. And the advice parent gave you I think is more than enough for that. In any case, after you read the book, you can always purchase another one.

          I have a friend that does this same thing. If we decide to learn how to play tennis, then he takes a month, does extensive research and purchases the most expensive and professional tennis racket around. Then when we get there, I use the racket that the tennis court lends you if you don't have any, and then I proceed to kick his ass!*

          The same applies to my field (embedded/electronics). There are people that goes around in circles for months doing research for the perfect soldering station or oscilloscope (to start learning). Just purchase a decent one and move on!

          Your abilities (in this case learning/knowledge) don't always come from the things you have or purchase. Whatever you use, it has to be just good enough for the task.

          *PS: I don't mean you need or want to spend a lot of money.

          • Dracophoenix 4 years ago

            > There are people that goes around in circles for months doing research for the perfect soldering station or oscilloscope

            Guilty as charged. In my case, I don't so much as lust after the perfect machine (anymore) as I want to make sure I'm buying a durable, well-priced product that is sufficient for future tasks. There are many dimensions to consider in a purchase so as not to buy twice.

        • rg111 4 years ago

          > and you're already in the hundreds of different opinions!

          No, you aren’t. Beause there are overlaps. (Seen Venn diagrams, btw?)

          > with ZERO external information

          This is a very bad advice. When you don't read those threads or blogs, you are not taking advantage of accumulated human knowledge over the years.

          And this approach will more likely to lead to poor choice of books.

          ____

          One method I forgot to mention- I also look at reputations of publishers/series. If a book is coming out of Green Tea Press, Pragmatic Bookshelf, or Manning, I will tend to favor them more.

          • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

            > No, you aren’t. Beause there are overlaps. (Seen Venn diagrams, btw?)

            Sorry, I meant different as in distinct, coming from different people.

            > When you don't read those threads or blogs, you are not taking advantage of accumulated human knowledge over the years.

            I agree, that's why I keep reading them. But more often than not, I feel like I end up with more questions and uncertainty than I started with.

            > And this approach will more likely to lead to poor choice of books.

            I don't think it's so obvious. Maybe that "average" book that matched your particular taste, would actually be more useful than the "perfect" one, which felt mundane? Simply because the first one would be more engaging, and you'd have higher chance of finishing it. But if you had read the reviews beforehand, you'd end up feeling bad both about the one you liked, and about the one that others recommended, and eventually wouldn't read either.

            > One method I forgot to mention- I also look at reputations of publishers/series. If a book is coming out of Green Tea Press, Pragmatic Bookshelf, or Manning, I will tend to favor them more.

            Agreed on this one!

    • javajosh 4 years ago

      >torture

      It's not torture though, its a fight. Your mind is lying to you. Right now, you're not in control of your attention, and your mind doesn't want to give up that control. It's a mutiny! And you'll enjoy being the captain!

      >Ok, but the problem is, _which_ book?

      It seems you're a beginner programmer; you could do worse than "Eloquent JavaScript":

      https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=eloquent+...

      The tricky part is that you'll want to do some exercises, which means turning on the computer, which means a risk of distraction. Go ahead and turn off the network when you're not using it; you can also modify your hosts file (look it up) to "uninstall" distraction sites by redirecting their name to 127.0.0.1.

      You may also want documentation while offline. You can do this by following the instructions here: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/plus/docs/features/offli...

      • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

        > It's not torture though, its a fight.

        Either way, it's a struggle!

        Btw. I've been toying with meditation and mindfulness on and off for a few years now. It's definitely hard work. So far I haven't succeeded in sticking to it for more than a few days at a time.

        > It seems you're a beginner programmer; you could do worse than "Eloquent JavaScript":

        Oh, sorry for not expressing my thoughts clearly enough. I'm a senior dev, I self-taught myself almost everything from books, starting before I even knew what Internet is, and later from early-Internet-era websites. Again, never considering it a chore, not preparing for a job, it was just a fun way to spend long winter evenings!

        I only mentioned JavaScript as an example, slightly ironic, because you used to learn it from a few page long tutorial. The tutorial didn't need to be longer, because JS was mostly used for creating hover menus and animated snowflakes. You could go over it in 30-60 minutes and call it a day. And frankly, there were years when knowledge in that tutorial would be enough to land you a well-paying job. Today you have to push through 21 long chapters (of that book you mentioned), and it's still only the beginning. I feel genuinely sorry for people who are starting these days, web-dev in particular became so complex.

        • javajosh 4 years ago

          Well, you have your advice. You can either take it, or not. But you need to choose and stop thinking about it. Good luck!

      • hoseja 4 years ago

        You're not really fighting only your mind, you're fighting psychology experts who dedicate their lives to most effectively exploit your attention.

    • DeathArrow 4 years ago

      The problem is that it's hard for you to take decisions. You should try to decide faster. Even if the decision isn't the best, chances are it isn't the worst either. Doing something is much better than not doing anything.

      >Let's say you search for a JavaScript book on Amazon. It seems to yield more results than all the books they had in my local computer bookstore! Pick one at random? But what if it has low reviews? Pick one with the highest rating? But maybe it was published 2 years ago, so maybe it's already outdated?

      As a beginner I would pick the highest rated amongst the newer ones.

      >Anyway, I saw on HN that everyone is using Rust now, so perhaps instead I should read a book about that? That's the analysis paralysis I mentioned.

      I would ask myself why I want to learn a programming language. What I want to accomplish with it. And see if Javascript is more suitable or Rust is more suitable.

  • conformist 4 years ago

    Sometimes it helps to decide on one book and go and read it in a public space like a park, library or museum. That can reduce the required discipline somewhat. Ideally a place where it is socially less acceptable or inconvenient to stare at a phone, but these are rare. Also taking notes can help.

    • _carbyau_ 4 years ago

      I second the library location. Honestly, it's cliché but there are generations growing up without using a library.

      I hadn't been to one from 2003 - 2016. But when I walked in I was stunned by:

      - obviously quiet/peace. I mean, it's a library! :-) But compared to the library even the footpath is busy with people talking on their phones/earpods now. A dedicated space for quiet was unexpectedly nice.

      - lack of "guard" required. No ads/incentive programs/paying-subscriptions/keeping-up-with-Jones-competition. It took me a while to realise that my constant "what do you get from this!?" suspicions could take a back seat. I could relax a bit more, like hanging out with a good friend you can trust.

      It is simply a place you can walk into and exist, knowing that you deserve to be here as much as anyone else.

      Plus it might have that book you want to read.

    • blooalien 4 years ago

      I do this with eBooks carried on a Nook sometimes. It's a great deal more relaxing than anything I might do on my phone, and I feel like I ingest the information or entertainment supplied by a good book much more easily reading in a park or coffee shop than many other places.

    • DeathArrow 4 years ago

      >Ideally a place where it is socially less acceptable or inconvenient to stare at a phone, but these are rare.

      I would suggest a classroom. The teacher would consider staring at the phone as rude.

  • bspear 4 years ago

    Information, like fast food, is easy and cheap to produce today, mostly horrible for long-term health

    Worse, I fear most info increases our confidence in decisions while reducing critical thinking

    At this point, I'm very selective about my media diet. There are only a handful of sources I read weekly (https://every.to/, https://www.productlessons.xyz/, https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/); all my other free time is spent on hobbies I enjoy

    • stereoradonc 4 years ago

      https://t.me/thecuriousloop

      Just added the link to my Telegram channel and I hope you'd find something worthwhile there.

    • rg111 4 years ago

      > Information, like fast food, is easy and cheap to produce today, mostly horrible for long-term health

      Agreed. But there are sooo many good, high-quality contents as well!

      It's very hard to make a choice and stand by it.

rg111 4 years ago

Yes, I suffer dearly from it.

Sometimes I get so overwhelmed, it causes cognitive paralysis and I just mindlessly browse HN, Twitter, Reddit etc. Or I just go on accumulating stuff.

I append to my list of to-read books, to my to-read papers, to-check-out languages and frameworks, to-read articles and so on.

With information overflow, I have become an information aggregator- I download dozens of podcast episodes, add a lot of RSS feeds to reader apps, bookmark a lot of Tweets, save a lot of articles to Pocket, and the list goes on.

I am always anxious, always worried that I am not getting any work done or making any intellectual progress. This feeling lingers strongly and I keep aggregrating "stuff".

Some of it is me. I am interested in wide variety of topics- wildly unrelated. I get a very little done, but keep adding to " to-X" lists.

I am seriously worried about this and it upsets my mental piece.

I have to brutally prioritize. Or learn to simply abandon wishes. Or I am going to be crushed, if I am not already.

Funny thing is I never waste time watching memes, following stupid social-media or playing games. I am having to choose from unhealthily large amount of stuff that will enrich me, make me better. This is was makes the matter depressingly worse.

No enrichment is actually happening because of the paralysis I talked about earlier.

  • somdax 4 years ago

    I am the same way.

    One thing that helped me in the past to focus and move past the paralysis was to meditate and exercise.

    Life has been hectic and I lost my routine, but I will try then again once I can establish a routine again.

  • jettison 4 years ago

    I'm in the same boat. My current plan is to take a few weeks off and finish each one of my "to-X" lists before they become truly unmanageable.

    • rg111 4 years ago

      No dice there for me.

      I have entire full-semester university courses in my list.

      If working through them 5-7 each day, I can finish a full-semester course- with psets, midterms and assignments in 20-30 days.

      Even if I take a few weeks off, I will only finish 20-30% of my to-finish-courses list.

      Good luck to you.

  • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

    So much this!

    I'm so annoyed that I keep consuming all that pseudo-educational content without actually gaining any knowledge from it.

    I don't have anything particular to learn, but anytime I hit something interesting, I search for it, see how much material I would need to get through, and I give up and revert to browsing HN.

jammy01 4 years ago

Umberto Eco has done some amazing work on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGPVJvHwXgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R1pwVAuUmM

Here are a couple of lectures, He argues that the internet is actually a form of information censorship(by multiplication).You can censor information by hiding it(by subtraction) or by presenting so many sources that is it impossible to find the correct one(by multiplication).

jbirer 4 years ago

Today I struggle much more with finding relevant information and having to sift through endless SEO crap and fake articles. Back in the days (early 2000s to early 2010s) I would have enjoyable information consumption and discussions with people freely, nowadays I have to filter through a lot of crap and have to be careful how I speak in order to have discussions.

jleyank 4 years ago

The firehose aspect of Google makes it hard for me to separate the wheat from the chaff for any "popular" topic. Ad's, trolls, ... They're ordered by the magic, not by the correctness or usefulness.

When I went into the bookstore looking for an Algorithm book, I went to the computer section. I didn't start at the first rack of books and scan until I found what I wanted. Nor did I look at the best-seller list.

  • warrenm 4 years ago

    >They're ordered by the magic, not by the correctness or usefulness

    I agree 100% on this: a well-curated set of search engine results or directories (like how Yahoo! started back in the day) would be immensely useful today

    Getting to the well-curated list, though, does bring its own Catch-22: who determines what's "good" initially? How do you collect enough "qualified" editors/submitters to get it rolling? How do you keep from falling into the broken world of social voting[0]?

    ------------

    [0] https://antipaucity.com/2015/09/16/like-problems-social-voti...

paskozdilar 4 years ago

> In the pre-Internet era, when you were curious about tech X, you'd walk to a store, skim through a bunch of books, pick the one you liked the most, and take it home. The whole process of searching took less than an hour, and then you were committed, because back at home, it was the only material about X you had physically available

True, but those materials were often of questionable quality.

I remember trying to learn C programming long time ago from an old book I found in my father's bookcase, and I also remember being completely confused by it. I recently found it again and skimmed through it - the explanations were terrible, the code was bug ridden and horribly outdated - the <conio.h> imports were everywhere, even though the code never used any code from it.

> These days, you type X into Google, and you get hit with an avalanche of tutorials, ebooks, video series, paid courses, online lectures, all available constantly and immediately

I find this a much better alternative - I usually pick a few ebooks that look nice, then start reading the first to see how it goes. If I find it tedious after a short while, I try another, and repeat until learned.

Isamu 4 years ago

Long before the Internet I spent a lot of time in libraries and bookstores, and it was difficult back then to find much beyond basic information about almost anything unless it was somewhat mainstream.

When you did find something unusual or highly detailed, it was cause for celebration.

So no, I don’t feel overwhelmed. It’s a welcome feeling that I can get better answers than ever.

  • seanw444 4 years ago

    For me lately, the wealth of information on various firearms is immensely useful. Other than having someone in your personal circle, or going somewhere with a concentration of people who know what they're talking about and bothering them, there wasn't detailed information that was easily accessible on the topic. Sure, books existed. But you can only fit so many diagrams in a book.

    Now, with web articles, and YouTube, it's so much easier to fully understand what you're operating, and how to maintain it.

crossroadsguy 4 years ago

Yes, I felt/feel that way.

> you could say, just turn off the Internet and buy a book

Yup. I could and I would say this. Because this works at least for me. Whenever I started back the habit of reading books (esp. paper books) it has worked just like this, like a charm. I stopped looking for my phone etc. Starting back on travelling and sports also help.

I (guess) am mostly full of doing other things that I don’t need Internet to fruitlessly try to fill the empty parts because there isn’t or less empty parts - free time, need for gratification, need to tire my body and brain, get excited/sad etc etc.

> but can you really pretend it doesn't exist?

Why would I want to do that? It exists and that’s okay. In fact it’s helpful for many and often for me as well.

> And how long can you stick to it?

For 7 months last time. Then I got infected by COVID and had to lie on the bed for quite sometime and phone slipped back in the bedroom (use case was rain sounds - helps/helped me sleep; and funny videos just to keep the mood afloat). Gotta get rid of it again.

Imho I don’t think there’s too much of Internet out there. It’s about how frequently and what all you try to keep accessing.

This is a very simple observation I’ve had - anybody who has got to do things is successfully able to use the Internet to get those things done by using it bare minimally or give up and get it done elsewhere - ie in the physical space, whatever that’s called - real world(?). In fact those people don’t even need books and travel to distract them away from this distraction.

hi_im_miles 4 years ago

I feel the opposite actually. I’m super hungry for information provided in good faith, but there’s an overwhelming amount of copypaste crowding it all out.

  • mythrwy 4 years ago

    Exactly. I'm hungry for information and much of what I find is non information poorly researched and placed in SEO friendly listicles posing as information.

    The challenge is sorting through that to find real information.

    Sometimes I secretly wish the entire internet would burn to the ground and we'd get to start over clean. (Of course then I'd be out a job so I don't really wish that, but the thought has crossed my mind).

photochemsyn 4 years ago

“A little learning is a dangerous thing. Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring; There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.”

― Alexander Pope, An Essay On Criticism

That's a good one to keep in mind while sailing the seas of information. A little experience will help as well - for example, a video 'promising to teach you quantum physics in 15 minutes' is surely utter nonsense. Given fifteen months of uninterrupted study, assuming you had a solid grasp of the relevant mathematics already, and a good instructor, then you'd perhaps have a decent grasp of the basics.

This doesn't mean you can't find an interesting article on quantum physics online without having a grasp of the basic mathematical approaches... but search engines really are garbage these days. I really can't believe half the autocompletes delivered from 'quantum physics of...' in the search box. QM of love? consciousness? manifestation? WTF. You have to know a little bit and make the searches more explicit. For example, 'quantum physics of beta decay' will return a lot of interesting articles, some even well-written.

In general, it's much more rewarding to go narrow but deep than broad but shallow when digging into a subject. As far as finding reliable sources for things like learning a programming language, generally the loudest opinionators are the least reliable, and Reddit programming language subreddits are often best avoided entirely - that only leads to anxiety paralysis (not a bad description as you put it). Again, often upping the specificity of the search leads to good results. For example, 'Learning the C programming language' can be way too broad. "Learning how to use C for network programming" gets better results, but you still have to dig through them. Sometimes the same thing keeps getting referenced, in this case "Beej's Guide To Network Programming Using Internet Sockets". I like it, everyone seems to think it's great, go with that.

This kind of background research takes time and effort, but then once you've got something that seems good, stop there. Browsing time is over. Now it's time for single-pointed concentration on a single text, that's the way to actually learn new things.

  • playing_colours 4 years ago

    Your post is very inspirational. Maybe, you could recommend something to read on deep expertise that is useful and motivational?

silisili 4 years ago

I do, and don't have a good solution unfortunately. I'm more of a short attention span reader - I'll read a few paragraphs on something but usually not more.

But I find myself reading constantly. So much so my wife keeps asking me to take a break and rest my eyes.

As a result, I feel like I actually know a little bit about a whole lot, which isn't that useful other than maybe trivia. Also, my memory has become pretty bad, which I attribute to reading too much, but it could just be age catching up with me.

  • johnny_castawayOP 4 years ago

    This resonates w/me. When I read a book, I tend to remember at least something from it for years or even decades. As for blog posts or YouTube videos, most of them I forget by the next day. They seem to carry lots and lots of information, but give very little knowledge.

stefanos82 4 years ago

I feel you 100%! This is the topic we discuss with friends on a nearly daily basis.

We loved the whole idea how we had limited resources and we were forced to read the {man | info} pages, at least in a UNIX-like environment, and of course visit university or public libraries to use them as our source of valuable information...plus we would use it as an excuse to meet with other like-minded people.

Now we feel completely disconnected and detached from each other, hiding behind emojis and smiley faces.

It's a sad SAD world we are currently living in and the majority of people I personally know are looking for an escape plan to give up technology as a whole, (well as much as possible) so we can retain some form of attachment to our previous way of life that felt more humane.

Enough is enough for me...

Clubber 4 years ago

>When you finally pick something up, the amount of material about any given topic, unconstrained by the volume of paper, seems impossible to get through in a single lifetime.

So when I usually want to learn something, I first have something in mind I want to build. I pick a tutorial and give it 5 minutes and decide if it's useful enough to continue. Once I complete a tutorial, I start the building process. Once I'm building, the internet becomes a reference manual, which it is much better at.

I'm not overly interested in social media. I gave most of it up after the Snowden revelations around 2013-2014. As far as news, I take breaks when not much is going on and I notice it's overly manipulative. I generally stay away from opinion pieces and when the news article starts going into opinion after the first few paragraphs, I stop reading. Hope this helps.

was_a_dev 4 years ago

I don't think so exactly. I was born the same year as Google.

I thrive on information, I might make 20+ different Google searches an hour on a random assortment of topics.

Modern smartphones + 4G really is a blessing in that regard. If I was born a decade earlier, I most likely would have read many more books.

I will say social media does overwhelm me, as a lot of it is low density information with very short lifetime. Facebook and Twitter are the worst, certain parts of Reddit as well.

I think I survive because my internet usage is heavily question driven. So it is very transactional rather than passive.

HN can be great as it can offer many jumping points for new questions.

ed-209 4 years ago

Not much pre-www experience here but I'll say "usually not". As a software dev, my approach has always been to just start doing the thing and search only when I get stuck on a specific concept.

And I say "usually" becase right now I'm learning a new cloud (Azure) and the docs insist on force feeding me, with equal parts minutia + core knowledge. I am indeed overwhelmed, trying to separate and apply the useful bits.

mikewarot 4 years ago

I was born before the internet. I was in high school when Ward and Randy decided a Computerized Bulletin Board was a good idea. The internet was a thing after I was into my adult life. I'm 58, and NO, I don't feel overwhelmed. In fact, it is surprising to me the quantity of things that have not made it online.

You would not believe how many daily social events made it into the local newspaper in my home town. There are accounts of my recent ancestors comings and goings, the family party that likely resulted in my Father's birth 9 months later... ;-)

There are whole swaths of things that never got recorded, and never will. The gatekeeping functions of publishing have been replaced by the savage and random fates. History of my family from Europe is gone, blown up, bombed, etc.

The internet makes sharing widely possible. It changes the forces that limit the availability of information. Sometimes getting rid of the gatekeepers, and replacing them with propaganda spewing fountains of drivel, sometimes enabling the common person with a knack for telling stories to connect with an audience that would have never found them before.

I'm glad the Internet Archive is here, trying to compensate for the loss of the wildly generative early internet.

>Btw. you could say, just turn off the Internet and buy a book, but can you really pretend it doesn't exist? And how long can you stick to it?

If it weren't for my current eye surgery issues... yeah, books are cool. Could I turn it off, and do without? Only if it's a challenge... and surely I can outlast anyone who grew up swimming in the internet. ;-)

Example: I still know how to drive from coast to coast using only paper maps and written directions.

warrenm 4 years ago

>In the pre-Internet era, when you were curious about tech X, you'd walk to a store, skim through a bunch of books, pick the one you liked the most, and take it home

Nothing prevents you from still walking to a store, skimming the titles, and picking one (more-or-less at random, it sounds, from your description)

Or going to your local library

Or checking what book(s) are required/suggested reading for a course on the topic at a local college/university

It can be just as hard to pick a "good book"[0] as a "good web page"[1] .. but I find it easier to determine relative quality of a book faster than a website - and a good book will have multiple citations (other books, papers, websites, etc)

A less-expensive option than the book route (unless you're visiting your local library, of course), is to browse through the magazine racks at a good newsstand or bookstore

And don't forget the power of borrowing books on your Kindle[2] or similar :)

---------------

[0] https://antipaucity.com/2012/12/10/finding-your-niche/#.YmqQ...

[1] https://antipaucity.com/2006/10/23/authority-issues-online/#...

[2] https://theexceptioncatcher.com/blog/2012/11/varying-your-re...

anm89 4 years ago

I always liked this quote:

For 50 million years our biggest problems were too few calories, too little information. For about 50 years our biggest problem has been too many calories, too much information. We have to adjust, and I believe we will really fast. I also believe it will be wicked ugly while we’re adjusting.“ — Penn Jillette

  • niknoble 4 years ago

    I've been thinking that evolution might resolve this issue on its own in a few generations. Right now people who are naturally high-willpower have a huge advantage, since they can resist eating unhealthy/too much food and wasting time on useless addictions. I would assume that translates into having more kids, on average.

    Although, there are some questions about this:

    1. If technology progresses so rapidly that each generation faces totally different challenges, evolution might not be able to keep up with the changing demands.

    2. Contraception might be decoupling material success from reproductive success.

oxplot 4 years ago

Back when most of the population didn't have access to books, you'd only have to make a choice if you wanted to learn from your dad or your mum or some other relative. Once libraries became a thing, now you had to choose from dozens, then hundreds of different books on the same topic and across all that would interest you. Was that overwhelming? Yes, most certainly if you didn't have the skills to pick one book and go with it.

There is nothing special this time around with the Internet other than the number of choices being orders of magnitude higher. And there are tools orders of magnitude more capable to sift through them (provided you have the skills to use those tools effectively).

I used to go down rabbit holes and get overwhelmed but have since learnt not to and instead keep focus.

antisthenes 4 years ago

I'm an information addict. To the point where it's detrimental to my life.

ss48 4 years ago

I agree with this sentiment. The biggest problem I have is that search engines are incentivizing people to write content with search engines in mind, which means proportionately fewer books and complete explorations of a topic by content creators. Even on Amazon, many Kindle Books turn out to be repackaged internet articles, oftentimes sold as series. Any disagreement gets blown out-of-proportion because that's what search engines like and the bigger picture is oftentimes lost.

codingdave 4 years ago

I like the plethora of information available because it shows many different takes on each tech you might want to pick up. But I do understand that it can be a bit much. I tend to cope with that by starting at the documentation for the tech and look for any 'Getting Started' materials that come directly from the group responsible for the tech. I'll get the basics down there, then branch out to the rest of the online info when I hit roadblocks on the learning curve.

lolive 4 years ago

I have a new job since last month. And the amount of info to ingest into my brain is simply too big. Many documents, many people, acronyms everywhere.

I chose to use a note taking app called Obsidian to deal with that infobesity. And honestly offloading all that to a tool was a fantastic experience. To me, this Personal Knowledge Management buzz is a real thing. And it was a life saver, to me. [The simplicity of the tool and its almost immediate added value is simply too good to ignore]

qumpis 4 years ago

A bit offtopic, but: I have a problem with research papers. There are many of they and they are relevant. I've gotten quite good in digesting them in detail, which usually requires reproducing all the notation/theorems and key ideas from scratch.

But I can't do more shallow reviews, I always have the feeling that I'm missing something out, and I won't get intuitive understanding of a paper.

Is there a good heuristic/middle ground of consuming such information?

Bancakes 4 years ago

The Internet is a paradox. It only seems rich, but most information is regurgitated or a lossy simplification of its source.

If you count the good articles divided by the total number of articles, the classical probability of the web's utility tends to zero. You can only access a constant amount of websites per week, whereas the Internet grows exponentially.

So don't sweat it, the top 5 results in any search engine are good enough.

blablabla123 4 years ago

The next time I learn something I might do that actually. With books I learned programming and Linux. Also it doesn't have to be read at once but can be stretched over months. Now it seems much harder for me to learn something I'm not familiar with at all.

Learning with video series/online courses rarely works for me also. Although I do like good Getting started tutorials for topics with flat learning curve

dredmorbius 4 years ago

I read Future Shock by Alvin Toffler for the first time a couple of years ago, on its 50th anniversary. It's an interesting read on a number of points, both in documenting the history of information overload, but also in laying out predictions for what the future might hold. As with most sets of predictions, some are more accurate than other, though the patterns there are themselves interesting.

Ultimately, time is finite, attention is rivalrous, and information is not infinitely actionable. It also varies tremendously in quality, and different filter and incentive systems modulate that quality strongly. (This last fact itself is part of the pattern of hits and misses in Toffler's list of predictions.)

I've started to note that the DOI is the new URL. With all the issues of academic publishing, there's still generally a higher signal:noise ratio in that than in general Web content. Likewise books and other forms of traditional, gate-kept publishing. Much of the better online content itself is itself extracts or adaptations of such material.

What you note about physical places and being committed to your mission when that involves actually going to a place and being in the moment is valid, and is hard to replicate online --- networks obviate space, and records obviate time. But you can at least be cognizant of that and try to recreate the experience in some manner.

The Getting Things Done model of time-boxing, defining core tasks and objectives, and recognising that you can only achieve a very finite set of tasks in a day is useful.

There's feature of a newly-developed browser, Einkbro, that I've come to hugely appreciate: save page as ePub.

Unlike "print to PDF", Einkbro lets you save multiple articles as "chapters" of a single book. That book might be a day's reading, or a compilation on a specific topic. It recreates the affordances of a bundled publication as with a print newspaper or magazine, in which a single issue has a finite collection of articles which can be read, and when you're done, discarded. The Endless Scroll model of the Internet doesn't offer this. Compile your ePub, read it, highlight and/or take notes using your ePub reader. And when you're done, discard without regret.

(Other tools, such as Tree Style Tabs on Firefox, at least allow grouping of articles related to a given task.)

The first rule of research is to define your goal or objective:

- What are you trying to learn?

- What is a sufficient level of depth?

- What measures or indicators of quality are you looking for?

One of the tricks of literature research is to try to go directly to canonical sources. This is usually:

- Original books or articles on a topic.

- Textbooks or assigned reading from uni courses. Looking for course syllabi is tremendously useful.

- State of the art rarely proceeds especially rapidly, and even in the information technology / comp sci arena, landmark texts can be years or decades old. Present churn is most often self-promotion and product advertising rather than useful information. Another challenge is that many businesses treat support and documentation as monetisation flows (Red Hat, Oracle, ...), and choke off useful information. My take-away is to avoid their offerings entirely.

- Otherwise, official documentation is almost always preferable to alternatives, though there are exceptions with specific independent high-quality publishers. E.g., O'Reilly technical books of old (pre-2010), etc.

- Most technical knowledge tends to be far more modular and accumulative than is generally recognised. A 20- or even 40-year old Unix or C reference, plus a few specific updates on particular new developments, can remain surprisingly useful (Kernighan & Pike, The UNIX Programming Environment, Nemeth, Frisch). You do have to keep an eye out for dated information however. Even modern machine learning techniques largely date from the 1980s --- hardware made previous theory viable.

- If you do find yourself reading recent publications / web references, look to see what sources they cite. Those will most likely be the true canonical sources, most especially if several references point to the same sources.

- Beware information vs. mythology. Claims or recommendations made on the basis of tradition or present fads are not true information, and should be heavily discounted. This is a case in which more-recent (though not necessarily current) responses to canonical / original works may be of higher value.

References such as Mortimer Adler's How to Read a Book and several variants on how to read a scientific article can also be useful for both identifying useful sources and most effectively extracting useful information from them.

  • contingencies 4 years ago

    Ultimately, time is finite, attention is rivalrous, and information is not infinitely actionable. ... added to https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup

    • dredmorbius 4 years ago

      Incidentally reflecting one of the better mechanisms for information filtering.

      Party A states some claim / makes an observation.

      Party B curates that as relevant.

      This isn't always viable, and can of course be gamed or subject to low-quality curation. But it at least disintermediates interests.

      The Internet Archive uses a similar mechanism in choosing which YouTube content to archive. It monitors Twitter for YouTube links, and uses that as a filter for curating YouTube content. (Brewster Kahle in an interview or documentary I'd watched / listened to recently. Probably a video as it doesn't seem to be in my podcast episodes index.)

      Oh, and thanks ;-)

      • contingencies 4 years ago

        Sure. Teaching and learning through social means was one of the great apes' big achievements. It's why we're dominant. Thus, today I believe it's scientifically non-contentious to view humanity as a single, evolving, temperospatial hive mind accelerating with compounding killer apps of language, literacy, and information systems.

        Incidentally, try the recent French computer game Ancestors, it's very well executed on this very subject.

disadvantage 4 years ago

Yes I sometimes feel overwhelmed. That's the natural reaction to information overload. Analysis paralysis as you say. On one hand it's easy to fall victim, but on the other it's also easy to leverage the shit out of all that information and build something magical. The artists of olde would be jealous of our modern Internet.

sorokod 4 years ago

I think of this as all you can eat restaurant, just because the extra helping is free doesn't mean I should have it.

sys_64738 4 years ago

A lot of information about, say, an Apple event is regurgitated ad nauseam. We need AI to chunk most of the repetitive dross out there such that we can see a single headline of relevance. I guess that's why I like RSS.

kromem 4 years ago

Not at all.

Over the pandemic I got interested in late bronze age history, and I've been finding all sorts of interesting things cross-correlating papers in the past decade or so in different domains with ancient texts, etc. Fascinating stuff, and a lot I think is currently escaping the specialization blindness of modern academia.

There's no way I could have done any of that before the current plethora of information.

In fact, for one book series I had to contact the publisher to get a PDF version so I could search it for fragmentary names of sea peoples.

If anything, what I'm growing more wary of is the increased trend of gating information behind paywalls, and the signal to noise ratio caused by blogspam.

It's arguably much easier to find out what a Luwian bilingual inscription about Mopsus from the 8th century BCE says than it is to find out which application tracing provider has the best pricing model for small businesses.

I don't think that's a healthy direction for information, and suspect it's about to get MUCH worse as AI generated text becomes an increasingly low barrier to entry and increasingly higher altitude.

thenerdhead 4 years ago

I wrote a chapter about this in my upcoming book. I'll spare the details and go into the tips. I'm going to share it here because this question is one I've tried to answer over the last few years.

=== How To Think With Information Overload ===

Here's my five-to-thrive idea for learning about something without information overload. You can also do this with vetted internet articles too, but be picky!

1. Start with the most popular & best selling book on the topic.

2. Next, a popular, but slightly more technical book on the topic.

3. Third, a semi-technical book that builds on the ideas of the first two books.

4. Follow it up with a hard book that brings in problems & opinions from experts.

5. Last, a book that talks about the future of the topic.

...

While there are many different mediums in which you can get your information, I personally prefer books due to the amount of time that goes into them. The idea that you can absorb years of somebody’s life work in a few hours might just be the greatest gift we’ve been given.

=== Low Information Diet ===

As Michael Pollan says about plant-based foods: “If it came from a plant, eat it; if it was made in a plant, don’t.” I needed to supplement my content consumption with information straight from the source, not manufactured in a plant by online personalities or agencies.

...

I had to train myself to stop clicking on clickbait by asking a question first. “Will I change anything about my life if I knew the answer to this question?”. The answer surely was no every single time, and I started to click less.

...

Your actions are a consequence of your thoughts. Your thoughts are a consequence of what you consume. And what you consume is largely a consequence of how you filter and refine your information diet. If you choose better inputs, you’ll get better outputs.

===

Some other things to be careful of is "pluralistic ignorance" and "sensory deprivation" when it comes to only getting your information from a screen. The internet, TV, and computers are beautiful, but also can cause these feelings faster than traditional ways of getting information. I personally opt for less screen time and more ways to learn from others and nature. That keeps the baddies like analysis paralysis, FOMO, and anxiety at bay. It also makes life much more serendipitous and organic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

p0d 4 years ago

At 50 I have realised that life is about balance. Read, walk, cook, go out with family/friends, work. I imagine too much reading or working are the biggest crimes from this list.

joeman1000 4 years ago

I like to amass books and grep them later when I want to know something. Embrace the deluge!

stereoradonc 4 years ago

The problem is NOT too much to read. The problem is "curation". I have a shameless plug to offer - I curate from hundreds of sources and search for something that enhances knowledge/satiates curiosity and of course, it is curated. I decided not to have a newsletter-they have a poor opening rate and settled from a Telegram based channel. I have also switched on the ability to post comments, and you can also react to the stories. I am not promising any quick fixes, and if the article is behind a paywall, there is a permanent pinned message on how to overcome it. I occasionally post recommended books (with PDF's or epubs) and attendant commentary. Join on Telegram or use your browser. Happy Reading!

https://t.me/thecuriousloop

senectus1 4 years ago

sometimes, but I've learned to triage my attention.

eesmith 4 years ago

> And reading that book was genuinely exciting, because with TV and offline games being the only alternatives, it was your strongest source of dopamine.

I note with interest the things you left out.

Radio, for one. Clubs and societies for another. (BPOE, Odd Fellows, Elks, Red Men, etc.)

Older houses have big porches in part because sitting on the porch, talking, and chatting with neighbors was part of the social life in the pre-TV era. (Also because there wasn't A/C.)

So was taking a walk around the town square in the evening, including with local musicians playing in the bandstand. Some farmers markets are still like that.

Square dancing was quite popular too.

And church activities, including church dinners, picnics and revivals.

> In the pre-Internet era

This is not something special about the Internet era! Older generation also felt overwhelmed by the information sources available to them.

This feeling of "information overload" is older than I am. The phrase dates from the 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_overload

At https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21118893 I give a couple of older examples, like:

> The problems of adequate storage, preservation and service for the increasing flood of periodical literature coming into their collections are of special urgency for librarians. Many studies have been made, all of which view with deep concern the rapidly increasing rate of growth of American libraries.’ Such growth, if continued even at the present rate, will in a short time result in collections of almost unmanageable proportions, both as to physical size and servicing.

("The Use of High Reduction Microfilm in Libraries", J. Am. Doc. Summer 1950 - https://www.proquest.com/openview/14f723869613e43376c4a7646f... )

Looking now for "flood of publications", I easily found things like

> The last decade has witnessed the publication of an unparalleled number of books dealing with the social, economic, and political institutions of our own and other lands. Amid this flood of publications it is unusual to find one devoted entirely to the Constitution of the United States. - https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdf/10.1086/437681 (1922)

> THE flood of publications recommending changes in education during the emergency appears overwhelming to the personnel of the schools - https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/440941?jou... (1943)

> just turn off the Internet and buy a book, but can you really pretend it doesn't exist? And how long can you stick to it?

I don't say that, because even without the Internet there's still overload.

Accept that you will not read every book in the library. Accept that you cannot know everything. Accept that others may point out something you missed and respond "Thank you!" rather than being embarrassed or ashamed.

wetpaws 4 years ago

No

  • ArtWomb 4 years ago

    Same. I feel the Universe has exactly the precise amount of "information" required to make it operate until exhaustion ;)

readonthegoapp 4 years ago

sometimes.

but usually during specific instances - like when shopping.

i have to have someone - some entity - tell me what to buy. wirecutter. amazon's choice. etc.

the 'flood the zone (with disinformation)' strategy is working for Big Corporate.

doesn't look like democracy, nor humanity, is going to survive.

bettyx1138 4 years ago

yes

Parker_Powell 4 years ago

It's normal to feel overwhelmed by the amount of information that's thrown at you, especially in this day and age. But here's some good news:

You can control how much information you're exposed to! It can be as simple as deleting a bunch of social media apps from your phone, or setting up filters so that only the emails you actually want are coming into your inbox.

Or maybe you just need a break from the internet entirely. Invite your friends over for a game night, or read a book. Whatever it is, taking time to step away from the information overload can help you reconnect with what matters most to you.

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