Differences between German and British manners
bbc.co.uk"Germans really don't do small talk, those little phrases so familiar to the British about the weather or a person's general well-being, but which she describes as "empty verbiage"." Being German, I find it fascinating that so many people on both sides of the Channel are so fascinated with the differences between the Brits and the Germans. Coming from a German perspective, I don't think there is any other country whose manners the German media is so obsessed with. Similar feelings seem to exist in Britain with big Sun front pages about German misbehavings once in a while covering all aspects of life (see "two world wars, one world cup" for example). I also like how they used the lack of a German word for smalltalk in the article. Whenever I explain differences between German behavior and Anglo-American behavior to Americans/Brits I tell them the German language has no words for smalltalk, jaywalking, and date rape to set the tone for my explanation. :) Hypothesis: German and British cultures are so similar as to create an 'uncanny valley' situation. British and Italian or Spanish habits are so obviously different that individual differences are quite unremarkable. British and German habits are so similar that any differences are unsettling. Faux pas are much more painful when the situation feels very familiar. Hm, this uncanny valley idea is actually really interesting. Thank you very much for bringing it up. I'll think about this for a while. Am a Dutch student currently studying in the UK, and many of these differences are true indeed, and possibly even larger between Dutch and English people than between Germans and the English. 'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial. Another one is 'how are you doing', which in Dutch is used to express concern/interest between close friends, or towards a stranger looking extremely distressed. While the English use it almost instead of the neutral 'Hi' between people who met once before. At first it made me wonder whether I looked alright (yes I shaved and showered, and all :). So yes, they take getting used to, and a common mistake for Dutch/German people probably is (it was for me) thinking that they are meant as strongly as one is used to. But it does not take long to get used to. Call it a cultural bias, but I slightly prefer the Dutch/German way, as it takes up less time, makes it more straightforward to find out what people think (fewer understatements as well), and does not deflate the meaning of the terms used as much... (strangely enough the English don't use different terms or pronunciations when there is more to thank for, than the usual, making it hard to judge the extent of gratefulness / problems, etc)... Anyway, at home they think I am very polite now, thanks :) 'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial. As something like a native English speaker I was surprised how often people in Dutch say please and thank you in the Netherlands! (Flanders is of course a different cultural ball-game with politeness rules that remind me of German or French) The informal would-you-mind-please word is "alsjeblieft" and it is normally used in any interaction with a child or someone in a shop, or even friends of whom you're asking a favour. And while the informal thank words "dank je wel", "bedankt", "dank je" and "dank" are slightly less used than in much of the English-speaking world, they're still used for lots of stuff that is rather more trivial than saving someone's life. And seem always to be used after asking someone to do something like move their bag off a seat in a packed train... ;-) And the Dutch certainly say informal hello's - with a slightly smaller bewildering array of sound-words than their goodbyes - with a lot more polite abandon than you'd find in urban English-speaking societies. I suspect there's a kind of politeness-blindness working here: cultural norms and paradigms are fairly invisible once you're embedded into a society. Once you move, like wybo, the differences snap into focus. Another Dutchie in the UK here. Your experiences sound very familiar. People passing me in my office would mumble a quick "heyyoualrighthowyoudoing", and I would stand still and say something like "yeah I'm good! How are you doing today?" They'd be terrified. I think the Germanic approach is particularly helpful for Asperger people, which are obviously prevalent in the IT industry. The social protocol is easier to parse. Interestingly, attitudes differ even among German-speaking countries: Austrians often criticize the German "yes means yes, no means no" attitude. I've read an article which attributed this to Austrians' centuries of experience with their Balkan neighbours, which has increased their acceptance of slack and thus has made them much more relaxed than the Germans. Not sure in how far this is true ;-) I was shocked to find out the Schwyer were even more um, polite, than the Germans. Hallo is an implied "du", as was tschüss so unless you want to piss everybody off, it was either Guten Tag or Grüssi and Aufwiedersehen. Very formal people the German speaking Swiss. 'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial. The Vietnamese have a similar attitude. The "Thank You" on your electric bill? The Vietnamese attitude is WTF? Most Dutch people I've met in the US seemed rather cynical. They were all quite likable and I enjoyed spending time with them but the way you interpret "how are you doing" makes me wonder if I was just wrongly interpreting them. It always made me wonder if they were unhappy people. I'll bet they often wonder what would happen if they give you the literal (and truthful) answer to your greeting "how are you doing?" I'm sure that would be fun to watch. (I was born and raised in EU, living in the US currently.) > "In a lift or a doctor's waiting room, talk about the weather in German? I don't think so," she says. What a ridiculous article. Of course Germans have inane conversations about the weather and other trivialities. You know what the German word for "small talk" is? It's "small talk". You're right, but what does it say about Germans when they have to borrow the word "small talk"? Much the same thing that it says about English-speakers when they have to borrow the word "entrepreneur". There is a slight difference, though, in that the English speaking world has taken a huge amount of its vocabulary from French. It may be less remarkable when Americans borrow a word then when Germans do this. That said, "Entrepreneur", from what I read on wikipedia, was a 19th century import, not a William the Conquerer import, so you do make a pretty good point - it does seem more of a "borrowed word" than a core part of the language. You'd have me convinced, except that I have it on the assurances of a fine former US president that the French, in fact, have no word for entrepreneur. English has a huge vocabulary from German. Even the royal family was mostly imported from Germany. Oh yeah, English vocabulary may be even more German than French... what I remember is that while overall English vocabulary is heavily French, it leans more German when you consider the most frequently used, conversational words. The little words tend to be Germanic the big words tend to be French. The names of farm animals tend to be Germanic the names of meats tend to be French. Swearing is Germanic. It's a class thing. Considering that we're neighbors (and, well, wars), it's not surprising that Germany has quite a few words borrowed from French, too. Actually, some words that are considered very normal by Germans were inventions by a few linguists to counter that (and Latin). And not even for nationalistic reasons, just to make it easier for the common man... Especially considering the Latin roots and constant cross-pollination, European languages can't be considered very isolated from each other. Never mind that there are quite a few words for small talk, too. As if that's the only word in English for it... It's just that it got quite popular due to its poignancy. Just like "Zeitgeist" the other way 'round. Or "Zeitgeist" and "Schadenfreude" for that matter. Or even kindergarten. And for anyone who knows how entrepreneur-friendly France is, the fact that it's borrowed from there of all places is particularly ironic. Well, they didn't mind lending it out, since they weren't using it anyway. Oh, shoot. I hate it when people say Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet. Leaving the post up so that people know what you're talking about. Oh strange, when I originally posted my comment, it wouldn't let me reply to yours. I used to think smalltalk was annoying and useless. I was most of the way out of that attitude by the time I lived in Germany, and was thoroughly rid of it by the time I left. Growing a new social circle in Germany is a complete bitch in large part because people really are less superficial and more direct. The "etiquette of simulation" makes everything so much easier. I'm not saying it's all that easy to get to know people in my home country, Ireland, but there is at least a place where talking to total strangers will not get you funny looks, the pub. And dating, oh god, dating. I miss Germany. And dating, oh god, dating. I miss Germany. Why, are German women like: "Yes, all required attributes check out. How far is your apartment?" No. It's much more about intersecting social circles than other places I've been. That said you can get places in nightclubs and the mindgames involved in courtship are different. But if you wanted to settle down and were a relatively respectable, solvent man, Germany'd be great. "For their part, the British have what House calls the "etiquette of simulation". The British feign an interest in someone..." Or sometimes you're making small talk with someone because you actually are interested in them, and just want to keep the first minute or two of the conversation light for whatever reason. Maybe you haven't seen them in a while and do want to catch up on really general things, or the weather really has been odd lately, or you can't think of anything to say right away and having some stock questions gives you a chance to get your bearings. Just because it's a bit formulaic and routine doesn't mean all small talk is insincere. There's also the aspect of accents. Which is less applicable in America (IMHO). More small-talk = more exact understanding of where someone is coming from (in all senses). And that's why I prefer NYC : I prefer people to listen to what I have to say, rather than rate me based on my cultural baggage... « The German language doesn't even have an expression for "small talk", she says. » When will this idea that because Language X doesn't have Y, the idea Y represents is alien to X speakers finally disappear ? Although language does have an influence on one's thinking habit, this idea is a gross misrepresentation of very complex phenomena. There's no word in French for the verb "to need".
There's no future tense in Finnish, nor are there any articles.
There are no perfective verbs or declensions in English. Yet, if an idea is intelligible, chances are you can express it in any language, and translate the result in any other. Strictly speaking, there's no future tense in English, either; somehow, we manage to conceptualize the future despite this grammatical lacuna. Hungarian has no word for "to have". No, really! The equivalent circumlocution for "he has X" is more or less "there is X for him". Languages are weirder than most people give them credit for. There is a future tense in English, through the use of auxiliary verbs.
Just because it's not formed by affixing a morpheme doesn't mean it cannot be thought of as a future tense. The question is : does it behave like one ? « Hungarian has no word for "to have" » Just like Finnish and, curiously enough, Russian. On the other hand, Russian has several movement verbs that don't exist in English nor in French ("to swim" will be either "плавать" or "плыть", for instance) > There's no word in French for the verb "to need" Un moment, s'il vous plait. J'ai besoin d'un dictionnaire Français. :) Translates as: One moment please. I need a French dictionary. 'There's no word in French for the verb "to need".' Sure, but there is an expression for the idea - the article didn't just say that there isn't a word for small talk, it said that Germans don't even do small talk. The example given was that th German translation of a Paddington Bear book actually just cuts out the small talk, which does indeed seem to support the idea that you disagree with... This is the reason I gave other examples.
This doesn't apply only to words. It applies to expressions as well.
Literal translation being possible is the exception, not the norm. It used the fact that Germans don't have a word for small talk as evidence that Germans don't do small talk. "to need" -> "avoir besoin" (to have a need) Verbs are a lot more complex in French than in English, so I'm glad they went that way. Seems a lot simpler than adding a whole new verb. I know that, and that's beside my point. > There's no future tense in Finnish Huh, really? How do they express phrases that refer to future events? In German at least, the future exists, but is rarely used unless it is necessary to disambiguate. For example, you would just say, Ich fahre morgen mit meinem Auto in die Schweiz. Lit. translated: I drive tomorrow with my car in/to Switzerland. More idiomatically translated: I will (or I'm going to) drive in my car to Switzerland tomorrow. I assume it's the same in Finnish, but it might not be because Finnish isn't even a Indo-European language. N.B: I just finished my first semester of German. Please someone correct me if I am anyway wrong. With a telic object [1] or through context (i.e. "tomorrow"). 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telicity#Telicity_as_an_aspect In some situations, the difference lies in the case of the direct object (partitive vs genitive/accusative). Otherwise, it's a matter of context. Maybe that's why they are Finnish? (I kid!) Can we please kill that stupid “X has no word for Y!” snowclone? Please? (Or at least get people to do some basic research before they say something stupid like that.) As some light googling will reveal (or thinking for a few seconds, if you are, like me, a native German speaker), German does indeed have a word for small talk. There is „Plausch” (that’s the noun) and “plaudern” (and the verb). I suspect that there are also a few other words in regional dialects. („Schwätzchen”, maybe.) There is also „Tratsch“ but that’s more along the lines of gossip and usually between two people who know each other. I do suspect that small talk is rarer in Germany but I would like to see a quantitative study confirming that, not (what seems like) idle speculation from a Professor who doesn’t even know that her own language has a word for small talk. On one hand, I want to say you should read the thread before posting, on the other hand, if someone reaches the same conclusions independently from the rest, it decreases the likelihood that we're all insane. I did read the thread but only after my comment was already written. I feel kinda bad about posting but I didn’t want to throw the comment away. (I searched the thread for “small talk” before I started writing and didn’t find anything because everybody who decided to write about German and small talk seems to have decided to write “smalltalk”.) "The German language doesn't even have an expression for "small talk", she says. It is so alien that in the German translation of A Bear called Paddington - Paddington unser kleiner Baer - it was omitted." Klatsch? Gerede? I'm pretty sure Heidegger's Gerede comes pretty close to what we call "small talk". Native speaker of German here. "Klatsch" is not "small talk", it's "gossip". "Gerede" is a word that I've only heard in debates to suggest that something is not to be taken seriously, i.e. it has serious negative connotations. Perhaps it used to mean "small talk" in the past when Germans did such things, and then changed to have the negative meaning when small talk fell out of favour? Of course, the German word "Smalltalk" also tends to be used negatively ;) If you start getting into negative/positive connotations and meditate on them enough, you'll find that nothing at all can ever be translated between any two languages - then if you continue to meditate, you'll find that no actual communication ever takes place at all. Speaking as a professional translator. The actual difference between "small talk" and "gossip" is slight enough that they easily overlap depending on the situation. Certainly they show that the German language is capable of conceptualizing the various rituals that we refer to as small talk. Just because English has no precise translation for "Gemütlichkeit" doesn't mean that English speakers never feel comfortable among a small circle of friends at a restaurant. I'd also like to say that after many years of living in Germany, I'd say that the notion that no small talk ever takes place within the borders of the country is ridiculous. It might not be taken to the extreme art form that the Brits do it, but H. sapiens talks. Incessantly. Whether there's something to talk about or not. Unterhaltung Konversation Both of those could be applied to any conversational exchange, whether information was really being exchanged or not, and smalltalk is heavily weighted towards the "not". It's not what you say, but how you say it. /exaggeration Schwatz, Plausch, Plauderei, Tratsch? And as we're getting very informal here, local dialects take over. Which is one of the reason why "small talk", sounding a bit more high-brow, was so easily adopted. Dear God, I don't recognise a single one of those. But what about people from areas that might have local slang but don't have a dialect, like Niedersachsen or (bits of) the Rhineland? And what about the university attending classes, who are much more likely to become free-floating German instead of being rooted to anyplace particular? Germans from beyond the Danube are cold heartless people who don't chat. No, seriously, I'm not really an expert when it comes to dialects, and there doesn't seem to be a proper etymological German dictionary online. And just because they don't appear to have a dialect (which is wrong anyway, it's just that their dialect is now "proper" German) doesn't meant that there aren't slang words. And it seems that a lot of the words for chit-chat area onomatopoeic... Just saying that there are words for mindless chatter that don't mean gossip per se (i.e gossipy "Klatsch" vs. chatty "Tratsch"). No, 'sich mit jemanden unterhalten', is smalltalk. 'Konversation treiben' is a form of that. In Hamburg 'schnackt man mit jemanden'. Hi.
Quatschen is the correct translation for small talk. For their part, the British have what House calls the "etiquette of simulation". The British feign an interest in someone... From a German perspective, this is uncomfortably close to deceit. IMO, this is one of the reasons the Germans lost the war. The English speakers are by nature sneakier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_(flying_bomb)#Deception http://www.suite101.com/content/allied-misdirection-fooled-g... I always wondered why Britain was so keen to keep the efforts at Bletchley Park so secret after the war had been won - it turns out we were selling encryption machines very similar to Enigma to lots of countries and organizations and we didn't want anyone to know that we could break the codes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer#Influence_and... Why do people forget about the Soviet Union when talking about "the war"? His post didn't mention the US or Italy either. I'm not sure what on earth that has to do with a discussion about British and German etiquette. His post didn't mention the US... Last I checked, English is the language spoken in the US. I said it's one of the reasons. Advertising. Even UK and German attitudes to IT secruity and social are very different. I was fascinated to see that Germans are far more likely to block Twitter in the workplace that Brits: http://twitpic.com/52e4cm Sounds pretty similar to articles I've read comparing American speech with Russian. Hi. I'm German and the word for small talk is "Schwätzchen" The word is (almost) extinct and has long been replaced with "small talk". Sorry but this is nonsense. Is this an example of the German directness we're all talking about here? Maybe it's a regional thing. I have never heard the word used in the more than 6 years I've lived in Vienna. But surely, you must have heard someone talk of “plaudern”? Yes, that's a common word. I like when British people say "we should have a proper catch up" and they mean exactly nothing...