Ask HN: Low pressure programming jobs?
Hi folks,
This might be precisely the wrong community to ask this question of, but here goes. I work as your standard Java/Oracle programmer in the finance sector. It's a good job, good benefits, and I'm lucky to have it. However, the constant go-go-go nature of my company and my team are starting to wear on me. There are tight deadlines that we never make and end up putting out a half-baked product with all the features and none of them done well. We work late hours many days because of completely unnecessary demands by management. The yelling, midnight phone calls, and complete intellectual boredom are driving me nuts.
Now I know what you're thinking: "So what? That's not that bad? You should work at MY company." Frankly, I hear you. However, programming is not my life. I'm intellectually exhausted when I come home and have no drive to pursue the things I TRULY love (unfortunately, those things do not pay). Yes, in the end, coding is a wonderful hobby and interest but mostly just a job for me.
Perhaps some of you wish you could change places, but for my sympathetic readers: do you know of any programming jobs/industries where there is less pressure/demand on us? I work in the same industry as you and feel much like you do. However, there's no yelling, management isn't unreasonable, and while hours are long, midnight never, ever happens. I joined the industry less than a year ago, and I'm not sure how long I'm going to stay. Honestly, it's the intellectual boredom which is killing me. Working in finance is like time traveling back to 2001. It's insanely brutal, and people don't realize how bad it is. I've worked very hard on my own time on my own projects (mogade.com, mongly.com, algorithms.openmymind.net, iheartyou.net and various oss things) to make sure that this year isn't a huge step backwards for me professionally. My point? I'm after a challenge...something that stimulates me, and something that I can be passionate about and direct my energies towards. I don't want less pressure or demand, I just want pressure or demand that flows with my own desires and goals. You really need to find out for yourself if you want a 9-5 low stress job (government, other large enterprises)...or if, what you really want, isn't just something that you are passionate about. Work in an industry where software quality is critical to life or health. Those industries tend to take quality very seriously and as a result, manage it better. This means that the management tends to see that working weekends/late nights is a problem that needs to be fixed. I work in medical devices (non-implantable); people I know at other companies in the sector say it's pretty much the same way: occasional crunch time, but generally a 9-5 job.
I knew someone who wrote software for real (as in full-motion) aircraft simulators and company policy was to enforce a 35-hour work week because software quality went down after that. The flipside is that work life can be tedious and procedure-driven. When you need a committee's OK to change a single line of code, you can find yourself being stressed out in a completely different way :-) Web programming job for a college. I'm at my 3rd one right now and it remains consistent that it is definitely a less stressful environment where you have a lot of free time to research whatever you want. The tasks received are pretty straightforward and you can get them done with time to spare working on your own side projects. I'm somewhat lucky that my current boss tells me to work on my own products to allow me to continue learning in my free time. Everything really depends on what you're looking to do I guess. I'm currently in transition, looking for more of a security/networking role, so where I'm at isn't quite doing it for me, but I'm not complaining as I can spend my time refining my skills. I guess this would be the place to say: the grass is always greener... Interesting suggestion, thanks! There are programming jobs in every industry. You just have to look harder. Find a job in an industry that uses technology, but isn't reliable on it in a matter of life or death fashion. My last place of employment was a 30 mile commute one way, was stressful, and I worked 40 to 70 hour work weeks. My current place of employment is about 5 miles away, not nearly as stressful, and I rarely work over 40 hours a week. What did I have to sacrifice? 10% of my salary. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Great advice. Thanks. Just get a different job with nicer colleagues/bosses. I don't think it's the industry. I think your team/bosses are wearing you down. A poignant observation. My coworker and I agree heartily agree :) I've had three programming jobs out of school and have never had that experience. Though, others in the same positions have shared the same experiences as you. This leads me to believe that it is more about the person than the job (although the job certainly has an impact). 1. Learn to estimate effectively, I usually just double whatever time I believe something will take and usually finish early (without having to kill myself). 2. Don't feel guilty working only 40 hours a given week and are meeting the deadlines you set for yourself. (If you have no input into your own deadlines, that is a problem. But if you have some input and your deadlines are still challenging, you'll need to work on your persuasive abilities) An apt and constructive criticism. Thank you for it. I am part of the problem, undoubtedly, but unfortunately when I do try to pad my estimates, I usually get back "That should take you two weeks." because management doesn't understand what they are asking for. I should work on my persuasive skills nonetheless. Just stop thinking about it and find another job. I was in a position in 2005 where I was treated like crap by my boss. I found a new one that paid more and treated me better. In the end you are responsible for your career path and work surroundings and you are the only one who can or will do anything to fix it. The statement below throws up a red flag for me. It is the people who MAKE the time to pursue advancement that achieve it. People who do there job at work because it their job tend to always be in crappy positions and underpaid. Fix that. [hear you. However, programming is not my life. I'm intellectually exhausted when I come home and have no drive to pursue the things I TRULY love] typically, higher salary = higher stress, more hours, difficult problems. if you want a lower stress job, go find one that pays less. either they'll expect less of you, or the problems will be easier for you to solve, so you'll not be stressed at deadlines. this isn't always the case, of course, but its just my observation. out of college, i took a lower paying position that was very low-stress, and i had time to live my life. some friends who went into the financial sector got paid more, but were pulling their hair out and working long hours. I used to think the same thing. I'm glad I woke up. It has nothing to do with the money, and everything to do with who you're working with. You can have bad client/coworkers/boss at $12/hour and fantastic clients/coworkers/boss at $150. For all the people reading this that are in a stressful position. You can find a less stressful job AND make more money. Let me repeat that. You can find a less stressful job AND make more money. So if you hate your job, start looking for new work now. You'll wonder why it took you so long. you can, i just don't believe it to be the norm. i tend to throw those outliers out. you "can" be that guy who is paid to be caretaker to a tropical island. but odds are, that isn't going to be you. i'm in a less stressful and better paying job myself right now, working with some really great people. but i recognize that out of all the people i know personally and professionally in the industry outside my current workplace, i'm one of the lucky few. edited to add: also, its much easier to get an ideal job when you're employed and not desperate. the second you make the active decision to leave, you're going to be looking for something good enough to switch to because you want out An interesting proposition and something I tend to believe. Any tips on how you can figure this out besides jumping from job to job waiting to see if it works? Its A mix of 1. giving realistic estimates - this requires you to push back like crazy. Realize that not pushing back will decrease the quality of life for you and your family and you'll take this seriously. 2.having a great relationship with your business guy - ie communicating bugs and release lapses early and following through on what u said you would do. Why is this imp? Because by creating a successful project - stress goes to 0. And you can cost for the next 6 months if u wanted to. 3. using awesome open source tools. Tools like redis, python etc can save you huge amounts of dev time. This is really the key thing as its in your control. You might have to lobby a bit but using open source tools is no longer a anathema. This is false. You just have to figure out how to lower the stress in your job. Its A mix of
1. giving realistic estimates - this requires you to push back like crazy. Realize that not pushing back will decrease the quality of life for you and your family and you'll take this seriously. 2.having a great relationship with your business guy - ie communicating bugs and release lapses early and following through on what u said you would do. 3. using awesome open source tools. Tools like redis, python etc can save you huge amounts of dev time. This is really the key thing as its in your control. You might have to lobby a bit but using open source tools is no longer a anathema. Anything involving government is very low pressure. I am a consultant, and I have a financial client where everything is an emergency and a government client where nothing is an emergency. Low pressure and also you have to sacrifice a goat just to actually GET anything to do. Went stir crazy. Good to know. I always had a suspicion government would move slowly, but I didn't consider it might so slow to that you don't get anything done. EDIT: Upon further reading of the previous statement, I now realize how ridiculously obvious it would be that government gets nothing done :) Even "cool" government jobs move at glacial paces. I used to be an engineer at NASA and got to work on all manner of awesome stuff. But the cost in soul-crushing-boredom is high. Push for open source technologies. Because these tools are so well tested and very flexible they can help u do stuff that would otherwise take 10 times as long. If something can be done with python then don't use C++ just because everyone else does. It takes a little bit of courage to do this but you'll be going home at 5pm while others are slaving away trying to link their executables. The better your tools, the easier your job. We already use a lot of open source tools (I got pretty good at Python at my current job). We're not as open to using new technologies as I'd like though (there's a review process for each new thing). Unfortunately, for each open source thing we use, management tends to think that they can now cut our deadlines in half since we said it would "save time" :) Lol :) ... Well the one thing you cant do is be totally transparent to them about your "successes/winnings in efficiency". Ie be transparent about mistakes but your only communication of "success" is to deliver the product or a release to production. Your art is yours. This increases your power as well. The problem with sharing "successes/winnings in efficiency" is that they dont understand what it means. For them its just a reason to shorten the timeline. I work on an actuarial projection system and it's very comfortable. Part of it is about you. The work you're willing to take. I don't market myself as a fire fighter who can multitask... I market myself as a careful thinker who is always striving to improve. The companies that aren't cool with that won't hire me and I'm ok with that. It sounds like your management sucks. Have you looked into quantitative hedge funds? Smaller funds are staffed by really bright and motivated people who dont generally add undue pressure. This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Here you have technology driving money making as the primary engine. Wouldn't this be a very tense environment to get the algos right? Bloomberg - I used to work there. If you can get into internal systems or any group really, they pay very well and it's an easy job.
Pretty easy job to get too. Sorry, what's your comment in response to? You're saying I should try out for Bloomberg? What's the thing that you love, but that doesn't pay? Can you make it pay?