Ask HN: How do you prevent slouching at your desk?
I have a bit of a problem with slouching. I often catch myself leaning closer and closer towards the computer screen, especially when I'm on my laptop, and this does quite a number on my back and shoulders.
How can I maintain good posture when I'm working on my laptop or desktop, without setting up a ridiculous treadmill desk? Thanks guys. I've had a couple herniated discs in my lower back for over eight years now, so I've spent significant time focusing on improving my posture while sitting. Here are a few tips: 1. Use a lumbar roll -- you place this in your lower back and it forces you to maintain a lordosis (curve of the spine) by keeping it in position. This will be tiring for the first couple of weeks, but eventually it will feel natural. Here is a link to a lumbar roll similar to what I've used: http://www.amazon.com/Original-McKenzie-D-Section-700-Lumbar... 2. Monitor height -- you want your monitor to be positioned so that you are looking straight ahead, rather than down, towards your monitor. If you are forced to look down there is a better chance of leaning forward instead of maintaing good posture. If you're using a laptop, consider buying a laptop stand to increase the height of the laptop. http://www.amazon.com/AliMed-Smart-Stand-Laptop/dp/B003T1LWW... If you can't get your monitor high enough relative to your position, you'll need a taller desk.
------------------------------------------------------- Those are my two biggest tips, but there are others: Chairs are not made equal... different chairs have definite discrepancies in the amount of pain they cause me on a day to day basis. Even expensive ones will send shooting pains down my leg within a few hours of sitting in them. If you can test some new chairs out for a day or two at a time, I'd recommend doing so. Get up, walk, and/or stretch regularly for a couple of minutes. At work I use a small cup for water, which requires me to refill every 45 minutes or so. A quick 2 minute walk to the water tank for a fill-up is a refreshing break for our backs. The drink trick is perfect, but beware you will be going to the bathroom often. Also be aware that you may develop a habit of sipping on your cup very often and that can lead to bad habits while drinking alcohol. I've used the glass of water trick myself, and it is very helpful. It's especially helpful because when you get stuck while solving a problem, you have a great reason to get up and walk around to think about said problem. Just another data point: This hasn't affected my drinking habits in other areas. You probably have too-small a screen or too small letters on your screen, though for what it's worth there really i no ergonomic way to use a laptop that doesn't involve at least one of an external keyboard or screen. Increase your font sizes, and you may not feel the need to lean in so much. (And/or see an eye doc.) And working at home (or in a startup you run, I guess) means you can do things to help your health and productivity even if they might seem ridiculous, like take naps and walk while you type. Yet another reason I don't see myself ever having a 'normal' job again. (And most people seem to think my treadmill desk is pretty cool, fwiw.) This is fine advice, but you're burying the lede: There really i no ergonomic way to use a laptop that doesn't involve at least one of an external keyboard or screen. Amen. Laptops have lousy ergonomics. Get an external keyboard, and/or a portable external keyboard, and/or find some way to prop up the screen, and/or get an external monitor. I completely agree.
Make sure that the top of the screen is at about the same height has your eyes when you're sitting upright. That's the best ergonomic height for a screen and will prevent you from slouching. (At the risk of sounding like a broken record...) (At the further risk of alienating everyone younger than me; I'm only barely old enough to remember records, and never actually owned any...) Get a standing desk. No slouch. Good stuff. Treadmill gizmo is completely unnecessary. I tried a standing desk for about 5 weeks, with no stool or chair. It didn't get easier over time. First, I got some hemorrhoid problems, then sore knees and feet that killed me. It got the point that I had to take a walk around the block to be able to stand still in front of the desk for a short period. The hardest thing I found was maintaining the right balance: avoiding locking the knees, and not shifting weight primarily to one leg or the other, which would give me hip pain. To relieve the pain, I eventually found myself leaning more and more of my weight on the desk (which was only slightly below by elbows), and I'd have to catch myself and stand back up straight again. Moving back to a normal desk and Aeron chair, I was in giddy heaven for the first week, it was that wonderful. The people I know who use standing desks get a tall chair to go with it - like, barstool height, but finished like an office chair. Then they can stand, lean, or sit as their body desires. As my friend put it - "Standing desk doesn't mean you're only standing. It just gives you the option to stand or sit." I feel like I would absolutely hate standing for any extended period of time. Doesn't this tire you out? I'm really not trying to be mean, but imagine your ancestors for a second. You know, the guys who ran down and killed animals that weighed several tons. Imagine how befuddled they'd be, sweating and bloodied from defeating the mastodon that just tried to kill them, when you told them that you can't be bothered to stand up for a little while while you type. It says something pretty embarrassing about society when we've collectively decided that myriad orthopedic problems are better than standing up. That rant over with (sorry, again), I just went to the local hardware store and got some cinder blocks. The price difference (~$7 for the cinder blocks versus ~$1000 for a height-adjustable desk frame) was worth the slight lack of convenience. That, and without the adjustability, I won't be tempted to just leave the desk in the 'down' position. There's a big difference between walking (or jogging) for hours and standing in one spot for hours. I can walk for significantly longer than I can stand in the same spot before I experience discomfort. The reason that I don't experience that might have something to do with my latent hyperactive tendencies. With my standing desk, I'm able to pace around the office, walk to the whiteboard, and then return to the keyboard. I think that helps me focus more, and it's probably one reason that I don't get sore from standing in one spot. Others may experience different results. How do you know that your ancestors didn't have numerous orthopedic problems caused by constantly running down and killing animals, which resulted in drastically lower life expectancies than we enjoy now? I don't; it was just a thought experiment. However, I did have someone with a Ph.D. in kinesiology (I think?) tell me that there's essentially no evidence of knee, hip, or back dysfunction in developing countries where people don't sit all day. One of the interesting things you see in undeveloped countries is that people squat in a position that is hideously uncomfortable if you're used to using a chair. Here's a somewhat nutty article on it called "third world squat": http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_trai... but it is an actual thing that people and it makes for a different muscle development than chair-dwellers have. I tried a standing desk. You get tired, numb and painful after half an hour. I can run several hours no problem. So indeed evolution did it's job and optimized for running. (I'll answer several above messages here.) I'm a part-time stander; perhaps 25 hours per week. I also sit, recline, and every once in a while decadently lounge while reading super-important work email on my iPad. Still, I've been standing a lot for many months, so I can look back and observe: * It takes a few weeks to feel right. I'm far past that, and I feel much less tired after standing most of the day, than sitting all day. * Standing a lot is really not a big deal. Lots of people work on their feet all day. Every day. See the above comments about ancestors. * It is probably possible to develop all manner of trouble by standing too still. I wouldn't know; I am essentially incapable of standing still. I shift around continuously as I work. * It is indeed very helpful to have the monitor high enough to look straight at it; this has totally removed the incentive to slouch. It's good to be able to switch positions. You can get an (expensive) desk that easily adjusts height, or a drafting stool so you can sit at your standing desk, or two desks. I found that I did tire of standing, but getting one of those comfort mats for standing helped, and adding the treadmill so I can walk or stand helped more (and has made it much easier for me to lose weight, I believe). It can't be worse than sitting for extended periods. The only thing that has improved my posture (other than concentration and awareness, which are usually engaged with other things) is exercise. For me, running helps a little, but the best by far is lifting weights. After I lift weights, my posture takes care of itself for the next 12-24 hours. Lifting weights also helps me learn what a strong, healthy posture feels like, so when I consciously try to stand up straight, it's easier to achieve a relaxed, natural-feeling position instead of straining and feeling unsure. I expect this advice only applies to exercises done on your feet with free weights, such as squatting and overhead pressing, not to bench pressing or machine work. I've found the absolute best thing you can do is to switch positions frequently. I've got terrible posture - I'm frequently curled up & twisted in my chair - and yet have never had RSI or back problems, probably because I don't hold that posture for long. At work, I usually migrate between my desk, the futon, a beanbag, and the massage chair. At home, I switch between couch, floor, bed, and balcony, with frequent breaks to get up and pace. When I don't get up and switch, I frequently do have problems, like I threw out my shoulder leaning on the couch while reading the NaNoWriMo forums last night. Vegging out can be hazardous to your health... I found that using a Kinesis freestyle keyboard improved my sitting posture a lot. The keyboard is split in half and connected by a wire and I have them set up about shoulder width apart. With a normal keyboard I pull my shoulders inward which causes me to slouch. Now I can lean back while typing. I have a Kinesis Advantage: http://jseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/ , which has also helped me quite a bit. Consider one of these. They make a huge difference for me. http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/solo-ascent-90_512x390.jp... (My cardboard/duct tape clone cost $4, about 50x less than the official version.) I've been meaning to build one, especially since I recently bought the 20" version (I have the 8" version at work). No way I can justify spending twice as my keyboard on a keyboard holder though. I am confused as to what you are suggesting to get or how it works based on the picture. I have the keyboard in the picture (the Freestyle) but I do not have the "tenting" accessory that is holding the keyboard in a vertical position. He was suggesting I get/build that. I have the VIP accessory which lifts each half 15 degrees, but that's still pretty far from 90. When you make a 90 degree angle with your elbows, it is natural for your palms to face each other. When you point your palms down for long periods, it causes torsion in your forearms which can cause pain. I've reduced that pain by using a vertical layout keyboard. Holding an upright posture requires exercise. It IS exercise, actually, which is why it is hard to maintain for a while. So for that aspect of the problem, one part of the solution == training, strengthening back muscles, yoga, meditation, etc. By this, I mean as a extra-curricular activity. As for posture itself, there is no simple answer. The way you sit, the placement of your peripherals, how much time you spend sitting, these are all factors. In order, then, and in brief: Rolling your hips forward pushes the spine up. This is fundamental, literally. Try a sitting position where your legs decline from your butt at a downward angle. Sitting "indian style" on a decline is a good place to start (or the "beaver" stretch position, with flat feet together. Obviously, your average chair is not conducive to this. ALternatively, you could sit on a pillow on the floor. You can sit with the lower half of your ass off a flat chair, with legs tucked under, but it is not the best for circulation. Your workspace is all important. If you're a pro programmer, it's worth every effort to make your workshop (or command center, if you prefer) as close to some ideal as possible. For instance, putting your monitor above the parallel plane of vision is probably a big deal. Parallel plane = straight ahead. Ergo(nomically): you should look upward to your monitor. This will encourage your posture. Again, since maintaining the position is actual work itself, it follows that your should take regular breaks, stand up, walk away (or pace), return after a few minutes, and get back to work. This also helps circulate blood. A programmer I work with espouses the Pomodoro Technique, which is a time-on/time-off regimen for deep cycle work flow. The effect is you set a timer, and follow basic rules without fail. It's also good for your eyes to to turn away from the screen every 45 minutes. Bonus: breathing is life. Breathe deep for a deeper life. Regulate breath, keep yourself extra-oxygenated. This is good for awareness and staves off fatigue, which are critical for not recessing down into a slouch. > putting your monitor above the parallel plane of vision is probably a big deal. Parallel plane = straight ahead. Ergo(nomically): you should look upward to your monitor. This will encourage your posture All the ergonomics guidelines I've seen recommend looking slightly downward at your monitor. See the main image here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomics > Breathe deep for a deeper life. What the hell does that mean? I think there are conflicting goals regarding monitor height. Higher helps your posture, but lower keeps you eyes from drying out and straining because they are not as wide-open. I'm a pretty tense (high-strung) guy when it comes to being in one place for a long time. To help with the slouching, and also with the Restless Leg Syndrome (http://www.rls.org ...yes, we have our own damn foundation!), I have to use a chair which feels optimally comfortable when sitting back and IN the chair (with each part of your back and posterior being supported by the chair). There's the initial investment of testing several chairs to find the one which fits your shape and comfort, but pressing myself into a chair which is comfortable to sit in and supports how I sit was 90% of the battle. I keep my contrast up -- my screen has a horrible problem with the contrast and subpixel organization. It just makes it harder and harder to read over time. I've also change my interface fonts... My monospace font has gone to a 12 point Monofur, which makes a very readable font imo, and for my normal font I've moved to a 14 point Verdana. I have also found putting my chair higher made a HUGE difference. high contrast white-on-black and green-on-black works better for me than other color schemes, so that's one big thing. I boosted my desk and now stand up. When I feel like sitting down, I have a stool. Having no back to your seating will improve your posture if you consciously think about sitting up. I was on the crew team in college and working out my core muscles every day did more to improve my posture than anything I've ever done. Rethink the treadmill desk. Bodies are not designed for sitting all day. Building a treadmill desk was probably the best single thing I've done for both my health and productivity. Either that or take half-hour breaks to do vigorous exercise throughout the day. This week I have been house/cat sitting for a friend. While reading on their computer my posture would begin to hunch, followed rapidly by a cat leaping onto the area behind my neck. Sitting up straight solved the cat issue. Maybe a cat will solve your slouch issue. I lean back, put my feet up on my desk or the computer underneath, put my keyboard on my lap, and increase my font size till I don't have to strain to read it. :) "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie was recommended to me by a physiotherapist and my grandfather. General advice to consult your own GP or physiotherapist applies. http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-McKenzie/dp/0958... This looks like a good support ("an extra muscle"), but it's important to train your own muscles. Rowing is great for strengthening the core and for stretching the back. I "row with Xeno" http://www.row2go.us/ "Belly button to the spine, chest up, shoulders down." I agree with rjett about not having anything to lean on. It really does improve your posture.
I sit on a balance ball at my office, and have consistently for about 10 months.
It's really hard to slouch on a balance ball. It's improved my overall core strength considerably, and I don't think I ever slouch. What I just discovered recently that has made all the difference is: Keep your feet flat on the floor. It makes it much easier to sit up straight; or, perhaps, sticking your feet out in front of you or tucking them under your chair makes it much easier to slouch. Perhaps you need glasses? I've read recently that slouching is actually easier on the back than sitting straight, however, I think that was about slouching away from the screen. I tend to do that - of course a lot of employers are not very thrilled about it. "I've read recently that slouching is actually easier on the back than sitting straight" Any chance you might have some reference to where you read that? I'd be interested in seeing how they did the study and what sort of results they came up with. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm Not a link to the source but a decent article surmising the findings. I do sit like this on an aeron chair, leaned back as far as it can go. I almost never have back issues, but in this position (exactly like the far right picture in the article) my neck eventually starts to ache. Good for back, bad for neck... You should check out the freedom chair with headrest. I have 3 and love them for exactly this reason, though now that my daughter has taken over my home office, I never get to actually use them... http://www.amazon.com/HumanScale-Freedom-Chair-Headrest-Fabr... That's what I do, except I put my feet on a chair and keep my legs straight. Trying to sit up straight makes my shoulders hunch up. Slouching lets my shoulders and arms relax. Sitting on a hard unpadded chair is good too. Pretty interesting article. I read an article supporting this as well. The basic idea was that sitting in a slouched position was closer to standing up. The article was called "Get Off Your Ass" and ran in Bicycle magazine probably about two years ago. I'll see if I can find it when I get home this evening so you can decide how credible you think it is. I found that article. It was less informative than I thought. I've uploaded a scan of the relevant section here:
http://imgur.com/ac2VS.png The text, in case that link dies: "No one wants to be a slouch, but it turns out that might just be what's best for your back if you're bound to a desk all day. That's right: Although you've been admonished all your life to "sit up straight," the healthiest posture seems to be considerably more laid-back - 135 degrees back, in fact. When researchers in Scotland and Canada scanned the backs of 22 healthy men and women as they assumed three sitting postures - sitting straight at a 90-degree angle, hunching forward, and leaning back 135 degrees - they were surprised to find that the spine was actually least stressed in the laid-back position. The worst? Sitting ramrod-straight created the most disc movement and strain on the spine. "Sitting unsupported puts more pressure and stress on your lumbar spine than standing," says Scott L Blumenthal, M.D., a spine surgeon at the Texas Back Institute. Relieve the pressure by sitting in a chair with good lumbar support, so it's easy to maintain the natural curvature in your lower back." Source: March 2009 issue of Bicycle Magazine. I think this is covered by fair-use. Even when I'm wearing glasses, which admittedly, is mostly when I'm on the computer, I always find myself slouching forward, or really tensing up my shoulders. I should probably just strap myself to my chair. What I've read lately is that you can sit basically in any position as long as you change it frequently. I could believe this. I feel like most of my discomfort just comes from sitting in the same position over a certain stretch of time, maybe an hour or two. While we're on the topic, anyone have tips for having a good posture, but packing your setup in a bag? I want to work remotely but not kill my back in the process. So far the best suggestions seem to be to use a nada-chair and a laptop stand + light external keyboard. Years ago I tried a kneeling chair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair). It was quite pleasant, although I've never spent an extended period of time with one. We have many customers at www.backcarebasics.com that really swear by their kneeling chairs. And, we have a whitepaper that you can access from our Home Page that gives you a great deal of information and other written references. Check it out! Put something moderately sharp (but rather blunt still) on the edge of your desk? So leaning on it is uncomfortable but not damaging to your clothes? Also, tell your optometrist about this. It really sounds like something is wrong with your vision. > Put something moderately sharp (but rather blunt still) on the edge of your desk Like a Macbook maybe? I've never understood how people work around those sharp edges for extended periods of time. Do your palms build some kind of protective layer after a while? I would recommend a standing desk. The Ikea utby (105 cm) is great.
http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49843462 I use a swopper chair at home, and at work I stick a bunch of reams of paper under my monitors to make sure they stay up. Next on my home list is to buy either a laptop stand or get a good monitor+stand. I strongly recommend leaning back, with the legs propped up. I don't even know what back pain is anymore, and I only realize how comfortable it is when I sit at someone else's desk. Anyone had any good experiences with those saddle and/or kneeling chairs? I find it odd that I get less backpain riding a motorcycle all day than sitting at a desk ... Use a Swiss ball for a desk chair. Squat, deadlift. I have been thinking of doing this for a while, but in corporate america it is hard to convince people that sitting on a bouncy ball is actually beneficial. That and I am not sure I can stop myself from bouncing all day... I do sit on one when I am home though. If not, I find myself almost laying down in my chair reading the internets. "It is concluded that the advantages with respect to physical loading of sitting on an exercise ball may not outweigh the disadvantages," the researchers wrote."
http://lifehacker.com/5645943/exercise-balls-might-not-be-th... Eeeewww, "spinal shrinkage"! Good idea, I will try that. However, I read on WikiPedia: "Some people recommend sitting on an exercise ball instead of a chair (for example, an office chair). This is based on the theory that the abdominal and back muscles are constantly engaged and active in order to maintain proper posture and balance on the ball. There is no scientific evidence of those benefits occurring by just sitting without additional exercises. However, some people warn against using a Swiss ball as a chair due to ergonomic considerations." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_ball Lean back in your chair.
