DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 20, 2023 8:24 UTC (Tue) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589)
In reply to: DeVault: Reforming the free software message by coriordan
Parent article: DeVault: Reforming the free software message
I find much to admire in RMS's writings, and also much I disagree with. One could hardly read 25,000 political notes without finding many objectionable and agreeable ideas in them. However, acknowledging this is not the same as answering the following question: is RMS's position as a figurehead and the FSF's role as an extension of his personhood good for the free software movement?
To answer this question, I draw your attention to a few specific problems with the status quo.
First, I don't think that anyone should suffer political suicide for expressing a few upsetting opinions. However, it's important to recognize the fact that the FSF is essentially a mouthpiece for RMS, or at the very least is unable to meaningfully break with him on any matters of policy or messaging. As a result it's difficult to distinguish the political positions of the FSF from those of RMS. To draw attention to one of the most egregious writings of RMS which was called out by his opponents, he has gone on record as expressing the view that minors may be able to consent to having sex with adults. I am quite uninterested in litigating the veracity of this claim on LWN (short answer: absolutely fucking not), but I draw attention to it because it's an incredibly charged issue which has nothing to do with free software and justifiably makes many people uncomfortable with RMS as a person. This is a view which, for example, would easily justify a parent preventing their child from attending an event he presents at. There are many less charged opinions that he has forwarded which raise similar concerns, none of which have anything to do with free software and are a harmful distraction when given a platform in the free software discourse. Again, RMS could express challenging views in private, but the degree to which the FSF is entangled with RMS makes it difficult to view it as an institution independent of these views.
Even without rendering a moral judgement on RMS, under these circumstances can this person reasonably be said to be a good leader for our movement? Does having him in a leadership position further the goals of the free software movement? Not at all. This creates an exclusionary environment and makes free software a political wildfire. No one benefits from having RMS's fringe ideas associated with free software, but because the FSF has institutionalized a cult of personality around him that association is inescapable.
Second, RMS is a creep. I understand that you view this characterization as insulting, but at this point it's a statement of fact and acknowledging that he is a creep is a necessary step towards addressing the problem. We have heard more than enough stories of sexual harassment to raise serious concern that demand action. The FSF treats RMS as "too big to fail", he is such an important creep that we cannot remove him. This is not okay. Moveover, he's just a bit of a jerk. His rhetoric, which defines the broader rhetoric of the FSF, is antagonizing to anyone who does not tow the line. His writings, those endorsed as the official message of the FSF, have created a political atmosphere which insults and derides so many people, from victims of commercial software's predatory tactics to people we should ostensibly view as allies in the open source movement, a movement which in the absence of these problems has been met with orders of magnitude more success in forwarding the practice of free software, if not the same principles and philosophy.
Third: what does RMS even do for the free software movement anymore? Can you name anything he's done in the past twenty years? I can only name a few, all times when he's risen from years of non-involvement in "his" communities to make things worse: crippling GCC's ability to compete with LLVM, derailing the emacs project's attempts to move on from bzr, or surprising everyone with major overhauls to glibc's documentation without seeking consensus. All of these communities responded by making moves to reduce or eliminate his leadership role in their respective projects.
The FSF has chosen to die on his hill, and to be clear, that choice means death. The free software movement is bigger than RMS, and bigger than the FSF, but if all roads lead to RMS then the open source movement, absent the principles and philosophy of free software, will continue to dominate our message and the free software movement is doomed to complete its descent into obscurity and irrelevance.
What's the fucking point of keeping this guy around? Any competent organization would have removed him long ago, and certainly would not have re-instated him weeks later. The FSF failed to address the RMS problem and has burned a tremendous amount of social capital in so doing. The FSF is the laughing stock of the entire software ecosystem. They are in no position to lead our movement until they undergo serious reforms.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 20, 2023 11:08 UTC (Tue)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (1 responses)
Can I just add one more problem to the list? RMS is 70. It's now reasonably likely that in the next 10 years, he'll reach a point where he can't do a good handover of leadership to a new person, let alone offer leadership himself, and virtually guaranteed that this will happen in the next 30. All it takes is one of the many horrible diseases that become more likely with age damaging his mind, and he's out of the picture - be it a stroke, dementia or worse.
If you do the handover from RMS to a new leader now, RMS can be there as Emeritus President with full honours, treated as a special case because he's the founder of the FSF, and whoever takes over can use RMS as a source of wisdom and expertise for as long as RMS is willing and able to take part in the Free Software movement (hopefully for a very long time!).
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 20, 2023 12:19 UTC (Tue)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link]
This is true.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 20, 2023 12:27 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
> Moveover, he's just a bit of a jerk. His rhetoric, which defines the broader rhetoric of the FSF, is antagonizing to anyone who does not tow the line. His writings, those endorsed as the official message of the FSF, have created a political atmosphere which insults and derides so many people, from victims of commercial software's predatory tactics to people we should ostensibly view as allies in the open source movement, a movement which in the absence of these problems has been met with orders of magnitude more success in forwarding the practice of free software, if not the same principles and philosophy.
I've said it elsewhere, but freedoms CONFLICT. Sometimes you have to CHOOSE. And the FSF/RMS come over as being so self-important they believe they have the right to deny me FREEDOM OF CHOICE. (Okay, from a European viewpoint, this seems typical of America as a whole, but never mind ...)
Life is not black and white. How to turn friends into enemies 101 ...
Cheers,
Wol
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 20, 2023 17:10 UTC (Tue)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
The FSF treats RMS as "too big to fail", he is such an important creep that we cannot remove him. This is not okay.
More generally, even if RMS had no personality problems, he is still a mortal human being who is 70 years old. The FSF has a serious bus problem. They need to cultivate future leaders, including giving those people an important role with the freedom to do their own thing and make their own mistakes. I just don't see that happening. I suspect that's a big reason they wound up bringing RMS back; they didn't have anyone ready to take over. That doesn't speak well to their long-term health as an organization.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 4:13 UTC (Wed)
by saraht (guest, #165715)
[Link] (1 responses)
I find much to admire in Drew Devault's wrting, and much I disagree with. But, how is Drew's self-appointed position as figurehead and writefreesoftware.org's role as an extension of his personhood good for the free software movement?
To answer this question, I draw your attention to a few specific problems with the status quo.
First, I don't think that anyone should suffer political suicide for expressing a few upsetting opinions. However, it's important to recognize the fact that the writefreesoftware.org is essentially a mouthpiece for Drew, or at the very least is unable to meaningfully break with him on any matters of policy or messaging. As a result it's difficult to distinguish the political positions of writefreesoftware.org from those of Drew. To draw attention to one of the most egregious writings of Drew which was called out by his opponents, he has gone on record against ACLU president Nadine Strossen https://stallmansupport.org/nadine-strossen-hannah-wolfma... with regard to sexual freedom and autonomy and the right to express opinions related to it, and he considers change from past opinions completely irrelevant, and he has said that writefreesoftware.org is explicitly motivated by this https://lwn.net/Articles/935305/ . This is a view which, for example, would easily justify a parent preventing their child from attending an event he presents at. There are many less charged opinions that he has forwarded which raise similar concerns, none of which have anything to do with free software and are a harmful distraction when given a platform in the free software discourse. Again, Drew could express challenging views in private, but the degree to which the writefreesoftware.org is entangled with Drew makes it difficult to view it as independent of these views.
Even without rendering a moral judgement on Drew, under these circumstances can this person reasonably be said to be a good leader for our movement? Does having him in a leadership position further the goals of the free software movement? Not at all. This creates an exclusionary environment and makes free software a political wildfire. No one benefits from having Drew's fringe ideas associated with free software, but Drew has institutionalized a cult of personality around him and that association is inescapable.
Second, Drew is a creep. I understand that you view this characterization as insulting, but at this point it's a statement of fact and acknowledging that he is a creep is a necessary step towards addressing the problem. We have heard more than enough stories of harassment to raise serious concern that demand action. His cult followers treat Drew as "too big to fail", he is such an important creep that we cannot remove him. This is not okay. Moveover, he's just a bit of a jerk. His rhetoric, which defines the broader rhetoric of writefreesoftware.org, is antagonizing to anyone who does not tow the line, especially to other free software organizations. His writings, those endorsed as the official message of writefreesoftware.org, have created a political atmosphere which insults and derides so many people, from victims of commercial software's predatory tactics to people we should ostensibly view as allies in the free software and open source movement. Movements which, in the absence of these problems have been met with orders of magnitude more success in forwarding their ideas.
Third: what does Drew even do for the free software movement anymore? Can you name anything he's done in the past twenty years? I can only name a few, all times when he's risen in "his" communities to make things worse: derailing sourcehut in a largely pointless years long effort to implement graphql without consensus, serially starting projects then abandoning them to mostly to become abandonware, boiling the ocean to create an obscure programming language and operating system where he is the dictator for life. All of these communities responded by a reluctant acceptance of his leadership role that he tightly gripped as their founder.
Drew has chosen to die on his hill, and to be clear, that choice means death. The free software movement is bigger than Drew, and bigger than the writefreesoftware.org, but if all roads lead to Drew then the open source movement, absent the principles and philosophy of free software, will continue to dominate our message and the free software movement is doomed to complete its descent into obscurity and irrelevance.
What's the fucking point of keeping this guy around? Any competent organization would have removed him long ago, and certainly would not have re-instated him weeks later. writefreesoftware.org and the communities he founded have failed to address the Drew problem and have burned a tremendous amount of social capital in so doing. Drew's exploits are the #1 spectacle side show of the entire free software ecosystem. They are in no position for any of "his" projects to lead our movement until they undergo serious reforms.
Please understand that this is meant as commentary that is as polite, respectful, and informative as the comment it responds to.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 7:45 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
> Please understand that this is meant as commentary that is as polite, respectful, and informative as the comment it responds to.
It's not, because it clearly contains statements that you do not actually believe to be true, while I am pretty certain that Drew believes everything he said in his comment. I am, fairly obviously, not in general well disposed to Drew. I certainly do not think that he would serve as an effective voice for the free software community a a whole, though I do appreciate many of the contributions he has made to it. But the criticism of RMS is backed up by people who have direct experience with RMS, and the framing that you present your criticism of Drew in is intellectually dishonest. Nobody has told me that their personal experience of Drew was that he was a creep. The idea that he's contributed nothing in the past 20 years is abject nonsense. Presenting arguments in this way does nothing to defend RMS, and just supports the idea that many of the people defending RMS are ideologically driven in unhelpful ways.
I agree that Drew's comment was presented in an inflammatory way. But look, free software is more than RMS, has always been more than RMS, and will have to be more than RMS given that we will not always have RMS. As I wrote in https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/52587.html, we don't fix this by replacing RMS with anyone else. We understand that the free software community contains a range of voices and experiences, and we figure out how to amplify the people who can most eloquently discuss specific issues rather than placing all of the burden on one person. Let RMS be good at what he's good at, and understand what he's bad at. And the same for Drew, and the same for anyone who hasn't felt able to speak because how could they compare themselves to RMS.
Free software should never have had a single figurehead. Free software should always have been an equal chorus of voices. That's the free software way, and that's something the FSF has never meaningfully embodied.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 7:55 UTC (Wed)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link]
> What's the fucking point of keeping this guy around? Any competent organization would have removed him long ago,
Correct or not, what you described is called a "cult". So you've answered your own question.
Cults can be quite successful, I can think of at least one recent example...
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:18 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (14 responses)
>> "RMS is a creep. I understand that you view this characterization as insulting, but at this point it's a statement of fact and acknowledging that he is a creep is a necessary step towards addressing the problem. We have heard more than enough stories of sexual harassment to raise serious concern that demand action."
You do not provide anything to substantiate this. "Stories" - the worst ones I've read are of RMS being even more socially awkward with women, than he is normally. Mostly, not engaging with women, but in some cases, making unusual professions to a person - sometimes involving bad poetry - or else just general statements that he is looking for a loving relationship, placed in slightly odd (but not terribly bad either) contexts.
Every time I've read these vague slurs, there's usually nothing to back it up, or the person points out some kind of "RMS' awkwardness made me feel uncomfortable", with little evidence of sexual harassment.
Do you have something concrete to back up your accusation, or are you throwing around smears with no substance (but claiming as "fact")?
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:21 UTC (Wed)
by ddevault (subscriber, #99589)
[Link] (12 responses)
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:39 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (11 responses)
Yes, I've read those before. I had them in mind even. There is exactly one specific accusation in all of that:
“When I was a teen freshman, I went to a buffet lunch at an Indian restaurant in Central Square with a graduate student friend and others from the AI lab. I don’t know if he and I were the last two left, but at a table with only the two of us, Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him."
This is the worst example I know of.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:48 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (4 responses)
That is a pretty fucking awful example! Attempting to coerce someone into a relationship with you when there's also a power dynamic involved is abusive behaviour that should absolutely disqualify anyone from being in a leadership position.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:52 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (3 responses)
It's not good, agreed. It's the worst specific accusation I know of.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 10:56 UTC (Wed)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link] (2 responses)
Hang on a sec, 27-year-old Richard said something at the end of a meal. In 1980, before GNU or FSF. And he apologised.
https://stallmansupport.org/debunking-false-accusations-against-richard-stallman.html#suicide
He's 70 now. This isn't in the category of errors that marks someone as a bad person for life. Has no one here said anything wrong in the past 43 years?
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Aug 1, 2023 13:29 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
Indeed. So it's a 27 year old highly-socially-awkward graduate student has a meal with other students and very awkwardly asks another young adult student (probably early 20-something) for a date, and this was before GNU/FSF, etc., so there are /no power dynamics/ from his fame from that here. And he has apologised since. I didn't realise those details, thanks.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Aug 1, 2023 13:42 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
And that is a very useful page you've linked to. Very interesting, wow in fact. So the bed was a lie too? Those throwing around these smears should be ashamed.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 9:07 UTC (Wed)
by ddevault (subscriber, #99589)
[Link] (5 responses)
The Sg. Ignutius routine, in which a particular incident is called out wherein a 15-year-old girl is mocked and called a virgin repeatedly throughout the "talk", does not draw your attention?
These are the most egregious incidents but there have also been many, many smaller incidents, and particularly problematic forms of expression (denial of rape, comments about the age of majority, the "pleasure cards", etc) over the decades which establish a pattern of behavior, and there is a conspicuous lack of meaningful apology or growth to indicate a change in this pattern.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 9:49 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (4 responses)
The St Ignutius and Emacs virgin routine is playing on Catholic traditions. He apparently then added a line on EMACS virgins and women, which I agree is in bad bad taste. Here's mjg59's transcript and comments:
https://mjg59.livejournal.com/113408.html
In a comedy club, there might be no problem with that line. At a Free Software conference, it's definitely in bad taste and inappropriate. Is it sexual harassment? Could argue on that I guess.
I have to say I base my opinion more on what I've heard from a woman I know who had first hand experience of RMS (and other "leaders". RMS definitely is awkward, and not comfortable to be around, but I didn't get the sense they felt harassed or threatened by him. But perhaps the women I know don't have a representative experience either.
The same woman felt certain other "leaders" - more on the "open source" side were very creepy, even outright predatory - inc. hands on. So the woman I know certainly does call out harassment.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 9:51 UTC (Wed)
by ddevault (subscriber, #99589)
[Link] (3 responses)
One woman's experience is not all women's experiences. Will you only believe stories of problematic behavior if you hear them directly from the victim?
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 10:08 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
EVERY story I've heard of RMS says he's socially inept. EVERY story I've heard of RMS says he can be creepy and behave completely inappropriately towards EVERYONE (not just women).
But EVERY story I've heard of RMS also says that if you call him on it and tell him to leave you alone HE DOES! He may not know how to behave, but on the personal level he respects you. The problem, of course, is a lot of people have difficulty calling him out, and that's especially true if there's a power dynamic involved.
Cheers,
Wol
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 10:13 UTC (Wed)
by ddevault (subscriber, #99589)
[Link]
Okay: what of it?
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 11:13 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
I will believe what I am told, of course. I've quoted the worst case I've heard/read of.
Is his behaviour awkward and inappropriate often? I believe so. Does he leave people (women and men) feeling awkward? Often, I gather. But, let's look at the actual facts again. RMS is guilty of:
- humour building on sexual references, transposed to technology, in general settings, which are inappropriate
- business cards with references to "tender embraces" which some /could/ interpret as having sexual overtones, but may not quite be intended that way, which he hands out to everyone - there may be an element of (off-target) humour here too
- appeals to form romantic relationships (and /romantic/ relationships, not overtly sexual, in any I've read) which are generally clumsy and awkward, going up to the example I quoted where he used what could be construed as emotional manipulation and pressure - though, also could have been just clumsy and off-target humour again, depending on tone.
- making women feel uncomfortable as a result (men almost equally often I think).
The specific case I know of, as quoted above, the woman felt sorry for him more than anything - which would suggest not threatened. This also fits in with other first hand accounts I have from women and RMS.
Does this count as sexual harassment? I don't know. We could have a debate, but I think it's subjective - not a fact. If it is, it is at the lower end of the scale. The behaviour, TTBOMK, is not repeated (against any specific person - see also Wol's comment). The accounts I know of, the women do not feel harmed or threatened - more sorry for him, in addition to discomfort with the awkwardness. Sexist humour, or mild sexual references in inappropriate settings seem to constitute the bulk of the problems.
Is it good? No. However: Is he a predator who physically assaults women? No. Does he use power to take revenge against women who decline (very clumsy, very awkward) romantic invitations? No (he lacks power for a start).
I have been to tech conferences, and there are a lot of creepy guys - especially at the more nerdy open-source/free software conferences that have social gatherings. Very very creepy guys. And I don't know how the women in tech who just want to do some professional development and networking cope with it. Some are no longer with us, tragically - and I suspect the creepy guys at FS/OS tech conferences played at least a small part in that (in the one I knew, a little). :( :(
Is RMS the type of guy I worry about when it comes to my daughters? Based on what I know, no. The type of guys I worry about for them are not like RMS.
YMMV.
DeVault: Reforming the free software message
Posted Jun 21, 2023 8:30 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
And look, there is a lot to critique of the FSF' state today and relevance, how it should move forward, and the issue of "FSF == RMS?". Also a lot to critique of battles RMS' has made. As per my other comment, RMS' lack of regard for social context and his stubborness are both a strength and weakness. Strength, cause when he's right, it takes someone like to persist with a just-but-initially-unpopular cause. Weakness, cause when he's off-in-the-weeds he doesn't know how to stop.
But, play the issues. Slandering RMS' by calling him a sexual harasser, with no evidence (and I don't know of any), to further some disagreement one might have with the FSF, is... Urg. :(