Curry On Prague 2015: Academia and industry need to have a talk
curry-on.orgThe feature I care about most is interoperability of components written in different programming languages, which doesn't seem to be a priority for either camp.
This conference is more likely to take you farther away from that goal than get closer. The foundational reason [1] that components are not interoperable is that they function in different guarantee regimes. A pure language can not simply "interoperate" with code that expects to mutate. Yes, the pure language can wrap around the mutation-based code, but it will forever have an impedance mismatch.
You can't trivially interoperate with languages that have different async/sync "colors", per the recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8984648 . And the discussion is good, because everything else that people mention as other things they thought the post was getting at are also examples of places where the code can't just trivially interop.
And I say this will likely take you farther away than closer because right now research tends to be focused on how to use colors more effectively, and how to use more colors in code rather than less. All this mitigates pretty strongly against cross-language interoperability. At least, against interoperability beyond what we have now, which I assume that you are not satisfied by.
A lot of code today is "interoperable" because a lot of languages inherit the drab gray of C. For all the apparent differences between Python, Perl, Ruby, Lua, and C, in the end they are all languages of a very similar color. Python, Perl, Ruby, and Lua amount to programming in C where every line is a complicated function call instead of a simple C statement, but you're still fundamentally in C. This has provided an illusion that interoperability is either somehow "easy" or something that could be improved, but as we move away from C's drab gray, interoperability is going to get worse, not better.
Perhaps someday if we settle on a particular rainbow, some form of code that can be sufficiently accurately labeled with its colors could be interoperable, but we're going to farther from that goal before we get closer.
[1]: I say this is the "foundational reason" because it's the fundamental one that can't be fixed by "just trying harder". There are also incidental reasons that often depend on exactly where in the lifecycle of the language C-interop was considered (compare Lua with Python, for instance), and accidents of history that persist because there's no point fixing them because the fundamental problem will remain.
I understand that deprioritizing interop suits academics because new "colors" are more vivid when they don't have to mix with old ones, and also that commercial vendors have an interest in platform lock-in. But as a working programmer, I'm not satisfied by that.> right now research tends to be focused on how to use > colors more effectively, and how to use more colors in > code rather than less.Microservices are an interesting development in this space, providing an architecture within which components with very different underlying semantics may cooperate -- it's not a new idea, but neither was AJAX. Other historically significant interoperability initiatives are CORBA, COM, SWIG and GObject.
Then there are the virtual machines which run multiple programming languages (JVM, CLR, Parrot) -- but it is very hard for a VM to provide a superset of semantics in order to support every last "color" for every supported language.
The project I work on, Apache Clownfish (a "symbiotic object system"), takes the opposite approach: instead of aspiring to provide a superset of semantic functionality, it provides a basic subset plus glue, and instead of aspiring to serve as a platform it is distributed as a library.
Working through issues like how to design an object system which is compatible with diverse GC/allocation schemes is fun and mind-expanding, and I'm looking forward to publishing some white papers. But I wish there was more existing research. If the state of interop were to advance, maybe it wouldn't be so expensive to migrate to new programming languages and the industry could evolve faster.
"I understand that deprioritizing interop suits academics because new "colors" are more vivid when they don't have to mix with old ones,"
It's worse than that... some "colors" basically break if you allow admixture. For instance, immutable and lazy languages come crashing down around your ears if even so much as one thing unexpectedly mutates, because the compiler rewrote the order so strongly that even if you think you can second-guess the evaluation order, you're wrong. It's why "unsafePerformIO" in Haskell is even more dangerous than you might think it is as a novice... it isn't just that it violates the ideals of Haskell, it's really unsafe! It's not an idle comment, it's a serious warning. It is possible to use it correctly but it's very subtle.
"Microservices are an interesting development in this space, providing an architecture within which components with very different underlying semantics may cooperate -- it's not a new idea, but neither was AJAX. Other historically significant interoperability initiatives are CORBA, COM, SWIG and GObject."
This is why I qualified my post by assuming you were talking about more than these things, because they exist and aren't going anywhere. Fundamentally you can always send a message from a runtime and get a message back in return, but if there's any particular problem with that, it's that it's an oversolved problem rather than a not-solved-enough problem; too many choices! But that is not the fault or responsibility of any one language.
"The project I work on, Apache Clownfish (a "symbiotic object system")... Working through issues like how to design an object system which is compatible with diverse GC/allocation schemes is fun and mind-expanding,"
And I'd point out that a quick glance at your project (which I specify so you can correct me if I'm wrong) makes it appear that I actually already called out all the languages that currently supports (C, Perl, Ruby) [1] as working in the same fundamental regime, before I knew about what you were talking about. It sounds like you're working on those accidental complexities, which may well bring great value to many people (and let me highlight that, I'm serious, this may well be an awesome project, let nothing I'm saying here be construed as a criticism of the project, its ideas, or its worthiness of being worked on!), but is currently working on C-gray to C-gray interop, which, alas, does little to counter the ideas I'm discussing here.
If you are interested in these ideas, you may find it worth your time to dig into Haskell/GHC a bit and just consider how you might even begin porting your ideas across. By no means would I suggest actually putting any time to code this in, but it might give you a different perspective to think about. If you are feeling less ambitious, even just looking at how you'd port it to Go, a language still mostly C-gray but with one colorful streak of asynch in it, could be an interesting compare & contrast.
[1]: https://github.com/apache/lucy-clownfish/tree/master/runtime
I think this will be solved (well, managed) by using unrestricted "colors" as glue languages at the top of the stack and restrictive colors for portable, embedded code that should be sandboxed. Pure functions shouldn't be hard to call or to cross-compile.
I'm not sure about this. For instance, Scala has a very capable Java FFI, but using it can be problematic due to the different expectations of the languages.
In Java, you represent a missing value with null, but well-typed Scala should never encounter a null. Java will also regularly raise exceptions, but Scala usually prefers wrapping values that may fail with Either. There's no clear way to automatically bridge the gap, which means falling back to Java is always going to be a necessary evil, rather than something that should be encouraged.
Scala isn't really designed for embedding but something else might work. Perhaps a little language specifically designed for embedding. Some existing little languages include regexps and SQL, but perhaps there's room for portable pure functions.
But you do have to decide how data gets passed in and out.
Is this related to what you have in mind?
ECOOP may be a good place to look. IIRC last year at ECOOP there was some work by or with Laurence Tratt.
True.
And on that note – Curry On is co-located with ECOOP, and Curry On registration also covers ECOOP. So you can attend both on just one ticket :)
The best place for that is probably the C#/F# infrastructure, strangely.
Turns out that Bjarne Stroustrup will also be talking about the evolution of C++ alongside of Curry On http://2015.ecoop.org/event/invited-speakers-bjarne-stroustr...
That could be really good.
Although I've come to loathe the language, his 1994 book on the topic is fantastically good and highly recommended: http://www.amazon.com/The-Design-Evolution-Bjarne-Stroustrup...
How many times does one get to see the creators of C++ and JS in the same place?
Last year's Lang.NEXT conference had Stroustrup, Pike, some ES6 devs, and Rust devs (among many others). I really enjoyed it.
Hoping it happens again; seems like it's every two years.
This is the perfect place for my "schönfinkeln?"-Shirt :).
Someone changed the title of the post to something that doesn't describe the event at all. It's about bringing industry and academia together.
We just changed the subtitle to a different one from the submitted page. We're open to suggestions for a better one.
The original title (which is most accurate) is: Curry On: Mainstream PL and academic PL should talk more often
This also works (and illustrates that it's an event): Curry On: Mainstream PL and academic PL should talk more often. Here is a venue.
The overarching point is that this is all about designers of mainstream languages (and industry) and academic languages (academia) coming together.
Key words: (1) programming language (2) academia (CS/PL) (3) industry
The title keeps changing, but these 3 keywords aren't kept. The words chosen mean something totally different on each revision.
Just wondering – why couldn't we keep the original title?
PS, you also changed the title. Just saying.
(The second revision of the original title still has nothing to do with programming languages, btw... It's a programming languages conference.)
Why does every tech conference site have to mention drinking beers? I like beer as much as the next guy, which is kind of the problem. It sorta seems like conferences feel like they gotta bro it up.
I think it could also be related to Czech Republic being the #1 country in terms of beer consumption per capita [1]. It's definitely a national drink there.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_cons...
To be fair there are many tourists coming to Prague just to drink. And we usually drink low-alcohol beer, 10 degree beer has ~3% alcohol content. And finally hard alcohol is less popular.
Actual alcohol consumption is not that high. But yes, in pub water is often more expensive than beer.
Fair enough. I would definitely drink some beer if I went there. Some of my favourite beers are czech.
Probably because they want to demonstrate that they're fun.
>conferences feel like they gotta bro it up.
It's not like women don't like beer.
Women can be bros. People where I went to school called female bros "biddies", IIRC.
So why not say 'have a few glasses of wine'? Guys like wine.