Show HN: Trontium Reactor, the first USB Power Delivery battery
trontium.comThe should include a camera in the device as well - just to record reactions when people take it out of their bag at airport security checks.
The only way I can see they could have made it look more threatening would be to write "Atomic Bomb" in large letters down the side and have a large LED display counting down to zero in 15 seconds or so.
Edit: The perfect add-on for your reactor: http://www.instructables.com/id/Crazy-Countdown-Timer/
290Wh is not allowed no board aircraft as per ICAO rules Annex 18, the maximum without a specific agreement from the airline is 100Wh. With the agreement it's 160Wh. "Lithium batteries exceeding 160Wh are prohibited in both carry-on and checked baggage."
see for example:
http://www.airchina.com.cn/www/en/html/index/travel_informat...
All the laptops are made with 97Wh for a reason...
According to their FAQ:
Can I bring a Reactor on a plane?
Yes. Per FAA rules every traveler can carry-on up to two Reactor sized batteries.
[NB I'm not saying I believe them - I wouldn't go anywhere near an airport with one of these things.]
It seems you're right. It is allowed by FAA but disallowed by ICAO. I'm not sure I would take any chances with a 300$ device though
Passengers can also bring two (2) larger lithium-ion batteries (more than 8 less than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per battery or about 100-300 watt hours per battery) in their carry-on.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash...
Oh don't worry officer, it's just a trontium reactor.
I'd suggest this for their logo ☢
What a bad name for a product. It reminds one of strontium and nuclear reactor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium
It's an accu battery pack (lithium-ion), no nuclear reaction, the name is misleading.
thats probably intended. A mash of thorium and strontium maybe..
I don't get the fanciness.
Thorium reactors are a dead-end, as European research found out. They had stopped all work years ago. There were major accidents with this type of reactors and one even happened at the same time as the Chernobyl disaster: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#St.C3.B6...
For some reasons some countries don't want to learn from history.
Edit: English language links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THTR-300
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble-bed_reactor#Thorium_high...
For some reason users who post links don't want to read them. From the first paragraph:
"Despite its designation as a thorium reactor , it was essentially a normal on uranium fission ( 235 U) based reactor"
Additionally, a lot of the recent hype on thorium reactors is that they are actually molten salt reactors (see the oak ridge national lab experiments - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment). By using a liquid fluoride salt, you can run a thorium reactor at ambient pressure and high temperatures, leading to safer operation and better utilization of thorium in feed stock. I think one of the main concerns for this implementation is material durability and corrosion resistance. If we can figure this stuff out, this reactor model looks promising. See Kirk Sorensen's company Flibe energy and the wiki for the LFTR - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LFTR.
Also potentially safer failure mode: in a run-away vent, it heats up, melts through a plug in the reactor base and drains out into a settling pan, which stops the reaction dead.
The worst thing about modern nuclear power is we won't shut the old reactors the hell down, so when you get a Fukushima it's because at every junction proposals to replace it were held up, but no one would brook just shutting it down either.
I always find it amusing when links provided by "nay sayers" present contrary evidence or no evidence at all.
From the link: The nuclear power plant THTR-300 ( thorium high-temperature reactor) was a helium-cooled high-temperature reactor of the type pebble bed reactor in North Rhine-Westphalia Hamm with an electrical output of 300 megawatts . Despite its designation as a thorium reactor , it was essentially a normal on uranium fission ( 235 U) based reactor: While there was his nuclear fuel to 90 per cent of thorium, but this was holds less than 30 percent of its energy. Because of its high cost and because of his unsatisfactory, short operation he is widely regarded as the greatest technical debacle in post-war Germany.
The reactor was in fact a URANIUM REACTOR!
I still need to see relevant proof that Thorium technology failed for any other reason than good sales and marketing from the Uranium camp.
Dear diary: My most bizarre moment on HN so far. Someone referenced my tiny (ugly) birth town in a discussion about energy.
On topic: It didn't look impressive. :)
At least you didn't grow up in Ennigerloh and Beckum. T_T
isn't Hamm the place where you have to wait so awfully long for the train ? ;)
> While there was his nuclear fuel to 90 per cent of thorium, but this was holds less than 30 percent of its energy.
Hint: Maybe there was a reason for that? Like ... that was/is the best way to build a Thorium reactor? But yeah, the engineers were probably all monkeys. That must be the reason.
Sure, there was a reason to do a project which: "Because of its high cost and because of his unsatisfactory, short operation he is widely regarded as the greatest technical debacle in post-war Germany." (from the link).
Not saying the engineers are all monkeys, but this specific project was a complete failure and yes, there are countless better ways to develop a Thorium reactor (see LFTR et all).
My favorite item from the Q&A [1]:
What’s to prevent a Reactor from rolling off a table?
We will be offering an octagonal silicone sleeve that will prevent a Reactor from rolling off surfaces and also protect it from bumps.
So....your base product actually will roll off the table, but you can buy an optional extra to prevent it?
I know nothing about USB power delivery, but I presume that's the value proposition (since as others have noted, there are already a plethora of external USB batteries) although it seems nothing currently supports it.
You are missing the versatility of the cylindrical shape.
1) doubles as rolling pin in the kitchen.
2) buy two, and have a set soccer goal posts for a quick pick up game.
3) use it in a circus balancing act during a busking session.
4) many other possibilities.
By the way, I hope my sarcasm is showing...
Thank god it's cylindrical, because I'm sure it's cheaper to make it cylindrical, there's a nice big cylindrical space in every backpack, it's easier to source cylindrical stuff to stick in it, and as a bonus it rolls off tables.
I know you're being sarcastic, but there's probably lots of round aluminum extrusions around to choose from. It would make the thing cheaper to build without having to go and make their own dies, just make two injected plastic ends and you're good to roll.
Interesting point (and I hadn't considered this) but a quick search reveals plenty of standard off-the-shelf aluminum extrusions that won't roll off a table and also could accommodate plastic end caps, such as rounded rectangles.
Now they may want a cylinder to maximize underwater performance, but that seems pretty far-fetched. It's just a stupid shape.
Actually, having a power pack in something like a SIGG bottle would be rather good - at least until you go backpacking and take your USB power bottle rather than the bottle of stove fuel...
For $299 I can sure buy a lot of lithium ion batteries. There are already many such products out there that are very cheap. 290w/h is 58000 mah at 5v. I can buy a 11,000 mah pack for 29.99 on Amazon and surprise it weighs 1/4 the weight. Even if I bought 5 of them to equal the energy capacity it would be 1/2 the cost. (But it is not a REACTOR) There really is nothing novel at all about this product, and it is overpriced. I guess I am doing something wrong when shoving 3 lbs of commodity Li ion batteries into a tube and making some fancy name can yield a 100% profit margin.
It has three high power voltage converter circuits which are needed for it to support USB Power Delivery. Those are more expensive than the batteries and no other device has three of them.
Lithium-ion packs are measured at 3.7 volts, not 5.
Buck or SEPIC based DC/DC conversion systems absolutely do not cost more than even a single LiIon cell. And to have multiple converters is far from a novel concept.
I think this is a neat implementation but there is no technical justification for this price tag, and the idea is far from unique. Looks cool though, and I guess for some that's all that will matter.
This isn't just a simple unidirectional converter. Power must flow in both directions.
We are also using ultra high efficiency parts and may also increase the power to over 100 watts if we can get it approved/ make it safe.
I can't imagine the hassle of having to charge five battery pack.
The bigger battery pack I found on amazon with decent reviews was 32000mAh for $119.99 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DN0KBXU).
The trontium still cost more than two of those but the difference is shrinking.
Yeah, you'd have to rig up your own charger (if you wanted to make it easy to charge) and USB power output manually, and then make those things effortlessly portable.
I've had a lot of experience with Li-Ion batteries and more advanced chemistries, and I have to say I'd be scared to try rigging up something that can handle the kind of amps the Reactor is promising.
The only lithium-ion-like batteries I know of that can handle any sort of reasonable amp draws (100W at 5-20V = 5-20A currents) are e.g. really modern LiMn2O4 (hybrid? I'm not sure) cells like [1], not standard LiFePO4 or whatever. So if they happen to have really nice high-draw cells in them, with protection circuitry added to each and all the stuff to make it safe, then they're definitely in the right value range. Keeping batteries from failing dramatically and exploding when subject to abuse, electrical or otherwise, is not trivial.
[1]: http://illuminationsupply.com/batteries-c-48_50/18650-sony-u...
The fact the website's team page is essentially devoid of information is worrying. I'm not a hardware guy so I have no idea about this sort of thing, but how hard is battery design? Is it wise to trust $thousands worth of Macbook/camera/etc to a battery designed by a group of anonymous people behind a Kickstarter campaign? If any of the people involved is an experienced and qualified electrical engineer, they really need to be shouting about it.
The team would apparently be "Alex" I guess? https://trontalk.com/member/3-alex
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/alex-kiritz/83/528/b31 Alex Kiritz President at Trontium Inc Redondo Beach, CaliforniaElectrical/Electronic Manufacturing
https://twitter.com/AlexKiritz
https://plus.google.com/107960025708414384190/posts
But this is a Show HN, Maybe Alex can chime in to answer some of the questions we have...?
Another member of the team posted this late last night. What questions do you have? One of us will respond when we're not asleep.
Confirmed.
Awww. I was really hoping it would be a nuclear reactor that I could buy and use to power my electrical devices forever. I've got to say I was quite disappointed to find it was just a large battery.
This is cool, and I love the coming wave of sexy batteries :)
My main gripe is this: ONLY USB output? Why?
I currently have a "noname chinese crapgadget" battery that can power my usb devices, but also has 9V and 12V output. Much more versatile!
Also, and this is more of a stretch, I know - being able to power a macbook would make this a FAR more universal kind of battery.
EDIT: Oh! I'm sorry, it seems that you can charge your macbook.... https://trontium.com/specs/ But how does that work?
Good job with the site design and product design, and I wish you success with your crowdfunding! :-)
It's not exactly USB output, it's USB-PD (USB Power Delivery), which is a different beast altogether.
Okaaaaaaay, and how to you connect a wire from that USB port to your magsafe port on your macbook?
with the appropriate adapter cable. https://trontium.com/answers/
From FAQ:
>> Can I bring a Reactor on a plane?
> Yes. Per FAA rules every traveler can carry-on up to two Reactor sized batteries.
Well, if supposedly[0] a charged laptop battery can be shorted to unleash energy equivalent of a small hand grenade, how strong a bomb made of two Reactors would be?...
[0] - so I read at random places in the Internet.
I doubt that you can do take these batteries on international flights at all: http://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/pdfs/lithium_batter... states that no Li batteries with >160wh are allowed on board or in checked baggage. The Trontium has 290wh.
Air travel is ruled by irrational fears more than by FAA rules. I can absolutely see how a metal case that looks like a pipe bomb on x-ray is going to cause some interesting conversations at the security gates.
Especially if you say, "No, it's fine, it's a Trontium Reactor".
All I can hear in my head was "Stand Back!! I am doing science" :P ref xkcd
Two things from the website : >We created Trontium to drive humanity forward Ok I cant discuss the reasons why you created trontium and driving humanity forward is indeed a great goal but wow this is just a (rather cool) battery.
Plus I think the keyboard (a yamaha psr E403 I think) featured in the pictures is not usb powered.
Other than that I'm impressed by the 8 charges you can make with the dewalt drill. Great to build something far from power outlets.
You're right. That keyboard is not USB powered. That's why we're making adapter cables. I'll be posting a tutorial on the site later today with pictures, but the general idea is that you can buy an adapter cable for whatever device you have and then set its voltage requirements in an app.
and then set its voltage requirements in an app
This is going to create some unexpected excitement and lots of magic smoke for a lot of people...
This (nice) feature should be more heavilly advertised on the website. Would the app also allow to schedule power off / on?
> Made in California
Perhaps it means something positive in California itself, but outside of it it more or less means "expensive, pompous, behind schedule" :)
That's a bit unfair. I think you mean "expensive, cylindrical, and behind schedule"
My wife's cell phone and camera are constantly running out of juice. One of these would be great. But let's be real. This battery pack is larger than her whole purse.
The picture they have of a backpacker with a liter bottle on one side of his pack and a Trontium on the other looks nice and self-sufficient but he's got all that extra weight to lug. Is he going to be living in the wilderness for 10 days whilst writing a novel on a laptop or tablet? That's about the one use for this battery that I can foresee.
For the average Joe, this thing isn't going to be doing much traveling. And if it's not traveling, it's sitting on a counter not too far away from a wall socket.
As for taking it on a plane -- most plane trips aren't long enough to warrant a super-battery. Devices these days can last 6-8 hours between charges, and if they don't, there are all sorts of cheaper solutions. I have a $20 lipstick-size battery that's good enough to keep a phone or tablet in business for a few extra hours.
I'm afraid I just don't see the point of this product as it is. But I hope they keep doing research, and learn how to shrink it down until it's truly portable.
I can kind of see it, touring on my motorbike I'd use one of these for charging whilst camping. Unfortunately I just can't justify that price tag.
The kerning in that video looks as if the creators dragged and dropped the letters on there one by one.
Yes.. but its just a lot of heavy lithium batteries stuffed in a metal casing.. with a power draining LED to boot? Also, like nakedrobot2 say elsewhere, why only USB?
I like the LED status lights, but I don't like the skeumorphic cylindrical battery shape. Batteries get away with it because you put them into something. This thing will just continue to fall down or roll around.
Not sure what I get what all the hype on the site is about. It's a big rechargeable battery you can use to power all your USB things... ok this one supports USB-PD (how many devices support that?) but is that really that big of a deal? Right now it looks like a solution looking for a problem.
The idea of negotiating voltage (up to 20V) just doesn't seem all that great to me: consider a failure mode that lets the full 20V into USB devices designed for only 5, like the majority are.
USB Power Delivery starts out at 5V. Voltage is only increased when a signal is received from a device requesting more than 5V and after the devices confirm that the cable is capable of carrying the power.
Why have two websites? That would seem to be a bad idea from a branding perspective. Why not www.trontium.com and talk.trontium.com?
The interesting part here is that it uses the new USB "Power Delivery" standard, that can switch to 20V instead of the normal 5V. This allows up to 100W of power from one USB port. It could power laptops and other somewhat power hungry devices, once they have USB power input.
Or you buy the appropriate adapter cable.
My MacBook would need 18A @ 5v + 10% loss in the DCDC, that's one hell of a thick power connector.
Which is one reason why the trontium can supply up to 20V.
I know. I was demonstrating why it wouldn't be a 5v supply rather a 20v one.
The protruding sheet metal on the end caps says "prototype". It doesn't have the refined quality that the price tag suggests. The edge looks like it came straight off a sheet metal shear. At least put a nice machined edge on it.
That lip is so you can screw a clear plastic endcap on and use it underwater.
Wow. This seems like a direct competitor of Gbatteries (YC W14). Link to discussion on Gbatteries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7459435
Except this team does not seem have problems with math 101. It's 'just' promises a well-designed, cleverly thought out product.
I like it, to be honest.
I don't understand the first line of your comment.
Mind clarifying?
My favorite part:
> We are working on an inexpensive add on that will allow control of the lighting function underwater
Fits in a backpack water-bottle sleeve -cool!
The LEDs seem a bit excessive, and for $299... well. Good luck though, hope it goes well!
I wonder how long until Apple makes an official USB Power Delivery adapter for MacBooks.
How are you the first "USB Power Delivery battery"? What's a Mophie?
Note that Power Delivery here is not just using Marketing Caps, it's an actual thing. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_Power_Delivery. It's very new, based on USB 3.0, so it is probably a valid claim.
I wonder if this will sprout a power supply accessory, i.e. a device that speaks to a USB PD source and lets you locally set the output voltage to whatever you need. That way you could use the PD source to charge "legacy" products that don't support PD.
It does : https://trontium.com/answers/
How is this even legal, if it contains actual trontium?
Who wants to walk around with a radioactive material in your pocket, irradiating your genitals?
Scary idea.
trontium is not a name of a chemical.
If you look at the spec page it says "lithium-ion battery pack".
Er, what's trontium again? Must have missed that in Chemistry 101.
I think it's an extra heavy isotope of turbinium that is made in neutron stars.
"get your ass to Mars"
Wow, you have big pockets!