Top-Selling Car in Norway Now Electric Car Two Months in a Row
cleantechnica.comAs a Norwegian this keep coming up in lunch conversations. I just bought an old used car from somebody buying a Tesla.
What we come back to is the very high sale taxes on new cars in Norway (our "rule of thumb" is that cars are close to twice as expensive in Norway as in some other countries), but that most(/all?) of those taxes are waived for electric. So the alternative to getting, e.g., a Tesla is paying almost twice as much for a "similar" BMW. Same story for lower-end cars.
Also, on the commuter high-ways leading in to Oslo, there's one lane that's reserved for bus+taxi+electric (similar to the 2+ or 3+ person-per-car lanes in California). There's a joke that there's a standing queue of Teslas in that lane now (though I don't drive there so I haven't seen how much of an exaggeration that is).
Also, electric don't pay on the toll roads, which saves you 3-4$ each time if you're living outside towns and commuting in.
The electricity:petrol price ratio is also more favorable in Norway than many other countries, thanks to a combination of high petrol taxes but not too expensive electricity (due to the large hydroelectric capacity).
For example, in California, typical petrol prices are around $0.85/L ($3.20/gal), and residential electricity prices are around $0.17/kWh. So you get about 5 kWh of electricity for the cost of a liter of petrol. Meanwhile in Norway, typical petrol prices are around $2.45/L ($9.25/gal), and residential electricity prices are around $0.25/kWh. So you get about 10 kWh of electricity for the cost of a liter of petrol.
edit: Actually might be an even bigger ratio. I was getting the Norwegian retail price of $0.25/kWh from Eurostat [1], but Statistics Norway gives a price of only $0.14/kWh [2]. Which would make for nearly 18 kWh for the cost of a L of petrol, 3-4x better ratio than in California.
[1] http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....
For my own curiosity I completed the gasoline end of the math above. Hopefully I didn't botch any of it. If so, please correct me:
According to Wikipedia¹ the energy of gasoline is ≈11.8 kWh/kg at a density of ≈0.74 kg/l, giving us 8.7 kWh/l. For California, using the $0.85/l price, we get $0.10/kWh (rounded from $0.09770) for gasoline. Norway, at $2.45/l, gives us $0.28/kWh.
What this doesn't include is the efficiency of motors. Gasoline engines has an efficiency of 25-30%. Electrical cars are much more efficient (Tesla seems to quote 88% for Tesla Roadster). So while your calculation shows that you about break even, taking this into account should mean electricity is in the area of 3x cheaper in Norway (when used for powering cars).
I don't think it is about the fuel prices. While it is true that Norway has the highest petrol prices in the world, we have among the lowest fuel cost/income ratios in the world.
It is about getting 400+ hp at family barge prices.
(And that is okay by me. We need more people to drive electric cars so we can evolve and develop them. And Norway is a great place to do that because of the hostile climate and the even more hostile politicians and their medieval ideas of what constitutes a "road")
edit: link for reference http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/gas-prices/20133:Norway
About prices, I compared prices in Sweden of a new Audi A4 and a Tesla S as normally cars are much more expensive in Norway, but for Tesla it's cheaper in Norway. I have not checked any rules about taxes or such, just got the prices for the same model from audis and teslas regional web pages.
(Prices in €)Sweden Norway Audi A4 33 269 64 843 Tesla S 70 798 55 682Are there any legal restrictions for Norwegian citizens to go and buy cars in Sweden (then drive home)?
Yes, you are required to pay import tax on the car when you bring it into the country. In the end you break about even. You could of course bring it in and avoid import, but it's high risk, sooner or later you get busted for driving and owning a car with swedish license plates as a Norwegian. (A foreigner can keep his car here for about 1 year before getting Norwegian license plates.)
No. But one would be required to pay customs duties (import tax, really) — so then one is paying the same amount as just buying it in the country.
Bummer you have to pay import duty when importing from Norway to Sweden.
(Please don't take this in a bad way, I'm just curious and not judging)
How do people feel being a top oil exporter and doing green policies/laws internally?
I am a Norwegian myself, and you just entered the big issue in the environment debate here. There are a lot of activists criticizing the fact that if we are exporting oil, it doesn't help with all the "green" measures we do. However, there are even more people thinking that it does not help anyone if we stop exporting oil, because the same amount of oil is getting burnt everyday regardless of what we do. So the only thing we will achieve by stopping to export oil, will be to "make a statement", and probably other nations will produce more polluting oil, due to a less environmental-friendly production process. We achieve a lower standard of living, and we will probably make no/small impact on the environment by stopping. I actually understand both arguments, so it is hard to take a stand.
Most Norwegians do not care that much, but there have been some small discussions and newspaper headlines lately discussing the ethics and double standard of exporting oil/gas while trying to be green. Many people just shrug and say it's better the world burn oil/gas than chinese brown coal.
And you know the old saying - don't get high on your own supply..
The argument is right. But consider rebates as support or venture fund by Govt. It promote sales - sales promote more production - more production promotes more private investment and better ideas.
The cycle has started and showing good signs.
I believe, if the same support is replicated across the world, it is very much possible we may witness electric automobiles a very viable alternative within next 10 years.
What about driving in the snow?
As a Canadian I can't see a Tesla being of any use in the winter, do people talk about that?
Here is a review of the Tesla during winter conditions in Norway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5PqPeOPT0 (Spoiler: Pretty damn good even in harsh conditions)
Interesting, he had good points about such a heavy vehicle in snow and the large amount of torque that can make for dangerous winter driving especially in a rear-wheel drive vehicle.
I had to look up what the 'cold weather spec' package is and seems to be just creature comforts not different engineering/design to increase efficiency in cold weather.
My concern is at -20C in January with a metre of snow, heater on full blast, spinning the wheels as I plow through snow and slush with aggressive studded winter tires how much will that 400km range drop? Even just warming up the interior (a common thing) in the morning and scraping off the ice off the windows before going to work in the morning. My current vehicle's mileage drops in half in the winter due to all those conditions.
Package also seems to include battery heating, probably wise as li-ion sucks in extreme cold: "The Cold Weather Package adds an upgraded heater for the battery coolant to boost range and performance in the coldest of weather, along with an "improved defrost" grille, heaters in the cowl and the windshield washer nozzles, and inside, heated seats for the second row as well."
You can do morning heating using grid power, trigger it remotely via your phone (they have an app for iphone/droid). I think you also can schedule heating ahead of time.
It would be nice if there was a torque reduction feature.
A trick for manual transmission vehicles in winter when on ice is to shift into third gear to reduce the torque so the wheel don't spin, the Tesla is the insane opposite of that.
[ Come on Elon summon your inner Canadian instincts! ]
Supposedly it's pretty good in the snow. The Model X will have an all-wheel drive configuration too.
Really? I live in Hamilton and we plough so aggressively that I don't think anything on 4 wheels is inappropriate for the snow. You barely even need snow tires here unless you're planning to drive out to cow country.
You out West? I've heard they don't salt out there, which makes all the difference.
Maritimes.
It snowed today and there was about six inches of slush on the roads, no plows out. Sure they salted the snot out of the roads but the slush was crazy.
Good God, could you imagine that kind of aggressive policy here in North America? It would be political heresy.
Seriously, everybody was all for saving the world from global cataclysm until we found out it would be expensive and inconvenient.
That sounds like a great political strategy to get people off oil. If only that were implemented in US, too.
And the Best part its not Tesla. In September, it was the Tesla Model S and in October, it was the Nissan Leaf.
As a Norwegian I would like to see sale numbers in Oslo compared to the rest of the country.
My educated guess is that the vast majority of EVs are bought and driven in the larger Oslo area, and if I'm right, I think we actually should be discussing Oslo and not Norway as a country.
Edit: Reorganized two words.
Norway is one of the richest countries in the world. Here in LA a bunch of my neighbors have bought the Tesla S. The tax incentive on a luxury car is nice, but it is still a luxury car. I do like how hydrocarbons are the main driver of green tech in Norway.
I can't wait for widespread adoption of electric cars and reduced pollution.
Are you sure it will reduce the pollution (genuine question)? The cars will stop polluting directly but the electricity producers will start producing much more electricity (which is much more pollution) to feed the cars. So, which of these two pollutions is better - nuclear waste/pollution or co2?
Are you sure it will reduce the pollution (genuine question)?
I live in NYC. I was thinking specifically of the air quality in NYC which its almost sure to improve, rather than total pollution.
However, I think it will improve total pollution as well. I'm fairly certain that natural gas fired combined cycle generation (which is most of the new generation being added) is both more efficient and lower polluting than the internal combustion engine, so total pollution should decrease.
The economies of scale in electricity production are immense, so yes it is indeed an improvement to move to electric cars even if all electric cars are fed by dirty pollutants. Which they aren't.
Also, a move to a less polluting industry is more than the sum of the direct effects; you must also consider research and momentum - as more electric cars are built, solar power and battery efficiency will also improve. If you take the opinion that an electric car is the same as a gas car because at some point they both pollute, you'll never make any progress anywhere.
The majority of electricity in Norway comes from renewable sources — mostly from hydro-electric power (which is, inevitably, relatively easy in a mostly sparsely populated, mountainous country).
The efficiency of a large closed-loop stationary turbine such as is used in power generation is massively better than that of a small internal combustion engine and the oil needs far less messy processing to use as a fuel, so even if all of the power generation was oil based, switching the cars to electric would still reduce CO2 emissions and other pollutive effects.
The people that are complaining about pollution rather than global warming might be thinking about the particles that aren't pleasant and/or healthy to breath in. Global warming is a problem for everyone (though the effects of it may vary depending on where you are on the planet), while pollution is for some a more local problem. If, for example, all cars in a city were converted to electric cars there might be more net pollution (maybe - could be all hydroelectric for example), but the pollution itself would be concentrated around the power plants, not in the city itself. So then you won't have to deal with pollution if you live close to one of the main arteries of that city.
There would still be less net pollution in your example though as the total pollution from using petrol to power the cars would still exceed the amount of pollution from an oil burning power station producing electricity to power the cars.
I am proud of you Norway! Can't wait for Canada to do the same.
You can't wait for Canada to put a 100+% tax on gas-powered vehicles? I have bad news for you...
To be honest, that would make my day, I wish gas was triple the actual price.
Do you live in the city with public transportation? Then I would definitely agree.
Otherwise, Canada can be really big and rural. Not having access to car (or in this case, potentially not being able to afford it) can be really damaging to your career, lifestyle, social life.
I grew up in the interior of BC 9 hours East of Vancouver. All of our driving policy (new driver rules and licensing) was dreamed up by street racing ridden Vancouver politics. The result was really damaging in small communities, as 18 year olds could only drive with 1 passenger. In effect, this eliminated young peoples ability to designate a DD. People didn't stop partying...they just drove.
Point being, policies designed for city residents don't always fit out in the rural areas.
Another way to see this is that everybody is subsidizing rural lifestyles by bearing the cost of their externalities.
You know that "rural" is where all of your food, energy and building materials come from right?
Close the externalities and the prices of food, energy, and building materials will adjust accordingly. I have absolutely nothing against rural people or lifestyles but if you choose to commute two hours a day so you can live in the country, you should pay the true price of your lifestyle to society.
And you've done the math on that? Waving the "externalities" wand isn't magic to justify any policy you'd like.
Close the externalities and the market will figure it out.
Again: Show your math. How do you figure out what the "externality" is? What's to stop you from saying it's $500 per barrel of oil consumed if that would result in your desired policy outcome?
I'm not advocating a specific policy. That's up to economists to decide. Here's the conversion as I see it:
embro: I wish gas was more expensive
pearkes: People in rural areas are very dependent on cars and would be disproportionately affected by increased gas prices
me: Cars have a lot of associated externalities such as CO2 emissions and air pollution, taxation is one way to internalize these externalities. If this process disproportionately affects rural people, it's because society has been subsidizing them by accepting the effects of their externalities. If this results in higher corn prices, for example, then corn prices should be higher to reflect it's true cost to society. By giving the market the true prices of goods it can more efficiently allocate resources.
The work externality is a technical term from economics. No need for the scare quotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
In Sweden, this is partially solved by giving you a tax rebate on your commute. So people who live rurally and need to commute into a city get some money back.
Well then you're also hoping for your food to triple in price because what do you think the farmers and fishermen here in Canada use for energy to power their vehicles?
Or is that just typical Toronto center of the universe thinking?
I'm glad you bring that up, yes if we triple price, we can expect food and most things to skyrocket as well. Apart from giving them a rebate or some sort of big tax credit, I don't have a solution to bo honest.
I do not live in Toronto or even nearby, population of my city is 130,000. The public transportation is ok only if you don't have kids.
My point is, a majority of people don't even consider public transportation or electric cars, hybrids are a joke, except for the Chevy Volt.
The government incentives have been increasing but they don't seem to convince a lot of people.
Wow, a country with Tesla Model S as top selling car... powerful :)