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What political censorship looks like inside an LLM's weights (Qwen 3.5)

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82 points by s314 a month ago · 51 comments

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gavinsyancey a month ago

Seems mildly interesting, but clearly written by an LLM.

  • nickvec a month ago

    Only read the TLDR, but curious on what specific giveaways (beyond em dashes) you clocked?

    • gavinsyancey a month ago

      Giving dramatic-sounding but meaningless titles to random concepts, generally overdramatizing and overemphasizing things, excessive italics / bold / formatting. The sentance that gave it away for me was "It falls into a different trained template: denial or propaganda."

    • zihotki a month ago

      It's an unreadable word soup in general

    • never_inline a month ago

      ^F load-bearing

nyrikki a month ago

Yes, there are better tools with ggml-org/gpt-oss-20b-GGUF where you can see a less terse refusal for the prompt

      "Did the FBI send a letter and audio tapes from a wiretap to MLK jr. telling him to commit suicide or they would release information?"
Combining it with other prompts with common banned ideas, abd as the The FBI–King suicide letter is well documented by primary sources (Like the national archives) it is well represented in the corpus, so you can also find that 'control' vector.

We will have to see how this works out, but the explicit denials are easier to control for IMHO.

Reminds me of the old joke:

     A Russian and an American get on a plane in Moscow and get to talking. 
     The Russian says he works for the Kremlin and he's on his way to go learn American propaganda techniques.

     "What American propaganda techniques?" asks the American.

     "Exactly," the Russian replies.
I can't remember what layer it was on but in gpt-oss but it was a very specific token IIRC.
lyu07282 a month ago

> The factual knowledge is already in pretraining. Qwen3.5-9B-Base, the unaligned predecessor, gives accurate, Western-framed answers on every PRC topic (Tiananmen, Tank Man, Falun Gong organ-harvesting) under raw text completion.

That remind me of the quote "The totalitarian system of thought control is far less effective than the democratic one"

Full quote (Radical Priorities, Noam Chomsky, C.P. Otero)

> “The totalitarian system of thought control is far less effective than the democratic one, since the official doctrine parroted by the intellectuals at the service of the state is readily identifiable as pure propaganda, and this helps free the mind.” In contrast, he writes, “the democratic system seeks to determine and limit the entire spectrum of thought by leaving the fundamental assumptions unexpressed. They are presupposed but not asserted.”

delichon a month ago

Steering seems like a circumventable kludge compared to adjusting the training data directly. That is, use AI to remove the problematic content and replace it with the party line. I imagine that this is at least in progress.

  • s314OP a month ago

    > Steering seems like a circumventable kludge compared to adjusting the training data directly

    Correct. Steering is used in mechanistic interpretability studies to prove that your model is correct. There are other better ways to "decensor".

  • gpm a month ago

    That seems like it will work for single events, but that it would be very hard for complex topics which are closely intertwined with factual things you do want it to be able to answer...

    Is Taiwan part of China - the CPP wants the answer to be yes.

    What are the rules for traveling to Taiwan? What currency is used in Taiwan? Whose laws are enforced in Taiwan? Should I (a loyal Chinese citizen) support the Taiwanese military? Etc... require the model to manage some cognitive dissonance.

  • stogot a month ago

    Can you actually remove now? they just use new training data to reinforce what they want and deprioritize ‘bad’ answers

  • like_any_other a month ago

    Fortunately we have lots of governmental and non-governmental organizations focused on removing "hate" online, so that our AI models will think correctly, without easy to identify censorship parts in the resulting model :)

nubg a month ago

The article has hallmarks of being formulated by an LLM. Why should I bother to read it if I ca not be sure which parts are based on the prompt, and which parts are hallucinated from the LLMs world knowledge? Dear author, care to simply share your prompt with us?

  • s314OP a month ago

    It wasn't "a prompt" but several prompts that transformed the raw experimental results to a blog.

    > hallucinated from the LLMs world knowledge

    This can't be true because I checked whether the content was consistent with the experimental outputs

    • Squeeze2664 a month ago

      The topic is interesting and you have my thanks for taking the time to look into it and prepare the post. Would you say it's fair to say that if you didn't use LLMs to prepare the post, we would have no blog post at all? In that case, I think I lean more towards being OK with this usage of LLMs, as I'd rather have this content available than not. However, I can only read that one repeated sentence about "booleans" (Ctrl-F "Boolean" and you'll know what I mean) this many times before I start questioning the validity of the entire document. It is not _good_ writing, to be frank.

yodon a month ago

Real question, not intentionally meant from a tinfoil hat perspective: now that it's been shown the censorship can be viewed, how long before we see serious obfuscation of censorship circuits in LLMs?

  • s314OP a month ago

    You can actually de-censor an LLM without understanding how it works from a mechanistic perspective. (See R1 1776)

    So I don't think there'll be effort to "obfuscate"

ydj a month ago

How do you determine that the model was reasoning in Chinese in layer X? I would think the middle layers do not map into any tokens.

sometimelurker a month ago

I really like mech interp and this is pretty cool

han1 a month ago

archived: https://nonogra.ph/what-political-censorship-looks-like-insi...

dang a month ago

[stub for offtopicness]

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