15 Years of Forking
waterfox.com> Mozilla: Break free from big tech - our products put you in control of a safer, more private internet experience.
(Adds AI that needs 7 about:config entries to disable, until users roast it enough that they add an off switch.)
> Waterfox: And we still don’t have AI in the browser. That hasn’t changed. The browser’s job is to load web pages, keep your data private, and get out of the way. It seems other browsers have forgotten that.
At some point I think we should just redirect the Firefox funding to Waterfox.
From TFA:
> The original text implied Brave special cases ads on their search partner’s page - they don’t. Brave blocks third party ads on all websites by default, regardless of any partnership, and offers an additional aggressive mode that blocks first party ads as well. Waterfox’s approach of allowing text ads on the default search partner page is our own decision for sustainability,
I would like to stress on the last sentence:
So basically they are permitting ads from their paying partners.Waterfox’s approach of allowing text ads on the default search partner page is our own decision for sustainabilityI think that's an unfair framing. No one is paying Waterfox to allow ads - it's a revenue share from the default search engine (which I've always been transparent about)[1], same as every other independent browser that has a search partner. It's not an "acceptable ads" programme where advertisers pay to be whitelisted.
I remember using Waterfox when it was new. I moved away from it when Firefox started pushing 64 bit builds natively, and I've stuck with it since then. Recently though it does seem as if they might be going down a dark path, so perhaps I'll consider switching again. I remember Waterfox was hard forked after Quantum became a thing, in order to keep support with XPI - is that still the case?
The hard fork was "Waterfox Classic", which just became unsustainable to maintain.
Rather than support for XPI (which is just the packaging for Firefox webextensions), the current version of Waterfox does still support bootstrapped extensions - in theory anyone can still write one, with access to all the privileged JavaScript APIs typically not accessible to MV2/MV3 webextensions.
It's not widely used though, there are two repos I'm aware of that take advantage of this:
https://github.com/xiaoxiaoflood/firefox-scripts/tree/master...
The ads on default search partner is a fine compromise - reality is that projects need money, and if this helps them (and makes it less dependant on donations) then great! As long as the ad blocking happens elsewhere, it is fine.
I need to move back to waterfox again...
Reminds me of Netscape Navigator adding a popup blocker, but also adding the ability to allowlist sites - so that it could have the Netscape website allowlisted by default.
Yes, enabled everywhere - and it will just be a simple toggle to also enable it on the search partner page, no hoops to jump through.
I am surprise there is no mention of Librewolf here. The differences of Librewolf and Waterfox is pretty hard to grasp, I am digging a little bit but so far I guess I would say using any of them is still way better than the main alternatives.
Librewolf is, to me, the way better alternative as this is really in the FOSS mindset : a tool for everyone to use and by anyone to contribute. Seeing their plateform alone (Lemmy/Matrix/Codeberg, they also have a reddit community it seems) you can already see this is an other world than Waterwolf's bluesky/reddit/github. To be fair I can understand the SNS part but the github is a big redflag to me.
As usual I can see people that are very probably sincere in their goals not realizing the way they are going will lead to the usual enshitification: company focus, brave dependency, etc.
I note that Waterfox seems to legally originate from UK and it is refreshing to have an ecosystem that is not centralized in 1 country : for the sake of everyone it is better not to rely to much on 1 legislator (see age verification for instance).
Librewolf and Waterfox have always had different goals. Waterfox has always had a more opinionated take on defaults and privacy. Essentially the goal has been keep the web as private as possible without breaking it (I know Librewolf is more aggressive there and that sometimes leads to website breakages) and I think I've managed that well, especially with the implementation of Oblivious DNS by default.
The upside of Librewolf being a community project is also IMO its downside - there isn't any accountability and with the current climate around the world becoming more hostile to online services, I think governance is hugely important, which is why I've tried to collate everything as much as I can: https://www.waterfox.com/docs/policies/company-information/
At the end of the day, if something goes wrong, at least with Waterfox I can be held accountable.
There was a recent comment: "if you don't know: any browser extension can read input/password fields across all site(s) you gave it access to (yeah, it's crazy but unfortunately true)."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47553048
Would either WF or LW fix that? Is it true?
Nothing to "fix" per se - webextensions need to interact with website data, otherwise they wouldn't be much use. Any extension with content script access can read page content including form fields.
The only real mitigation is being selective about which extensions you install and what permissions you grant them (even then, ownership of extensions change hands, updates can change what they do... it's a never ending battle really).
Had the pleasure of working with Alex while at System1. Great guy. If I remember correctly I got one tiny change merged into Waterfox that's probably since been undone in the years since :-).
Feels like the real problem isn’t ads, it’s that there’s no widely accepted funding model for open source.
I've tried a few ways - people are generous with donations, but you can't really live off of it and I have a subscription based search service, but people just aren't willing to pay.
This is basically the only potential way I can keep this going, even then there may not be much uptake, but it's a hail Mary.
Interesting I've never heard of waterfox before. Looks interesting!
There is no pure browser anymore. The little red hen of Google funds everything, and forks like Waterfox just change a few parts of the UI but still rely on the upstream for all actual browser code. Even Mozilla was bootstrapped by AOL-Time Warner Back in the day. If you look at Ladybird they already have lots of ad companies funding it as well and will demand its enshittification if it gets popular.
Sorry, I still can't get over the system1 shit in 2020.
I get the scepticism but IMO the reaction at the time was rough and I partially get why.
System1 is a search syndication company. Their business is contextual ads on search results - no PII, no tracking profiles, no behavioural targeting. It's functionally the same model as DuckDuckGo. If I'd sold to DDG, I don't think anyone would've batted an eyelid.
I get it, the timing (privacy browser sold to company with "ad" in its description) looked terrible in a headline and I take responsibility for not communicating it better at the time, which I feel like wouldn't have led to such a massive furor.
I love how "15 Years of Forking" is right next to "There is no Spoon" on the HN homepage right now :D
whether you use waterfox or librewolf, having anything outside of Blink is the only thing keeping the open web breathing.
Everyone starts out pure but then the lucre calls.
> Waterfox’s approach of allowing text ads on the default search partner page is our own decision for sustainability
"Sustainability" indeed.
You either die an open source project, or live long enough to see yourself become ad-driven in the name of sustainability.
Firefox has already done so to google, and when a fork is big enough, they certainly will hear the siren's call.
You’re right 100% The guy literally sold his browser to an online advertising company and then bought it back. Why do you think startpage is the default? Look up the online advertising company that owns it and then look up who he sold the browser to before taking it back.
Did you read the same article as me? The word is singularly used in the context of how do you earn money as a project, i.e. sustain the effort. It's a bit of a leap to imply this is impure unless they made some contract stating the opposite or are doing something dark.
Oh yeah, the part where he sold the browser to an online advertising company that just happens to run startpage is purity huh? Damn, Google and Chrome must be saints
You must be one of those guys who reads Philip Morris “articles” on the benefits of smoking and concludes there’s no evidence for harm.
I mean first thing I do in any browser is change the search engine so it's not like it affects me in any way. I don't expect opensource projects to never make deals that give them some money, I just want them to be fully transparent when they do. Waterfox is transparent and clearly states who and how they sell their user data to.
You can however of course swap out the default Search Engine with Google or whatever privacy focused replacement (e.g. DuckDuckGo, Kagi, etc).
Have you ever sent a donation to Alex?
Why would I donate to someone who is willing to sell my attention?
Did you do it before they did so?
Looks like I judged them well in not doing so. I would have been such a sucker. After all, donating to corporations is for bootlickers.
https://www.waterfox.com/blog/waterfox-has-joined-system1/
So they’re just shilling their own search product on their own browser. No different from Google and Chrome. Except with some corporate bootlicking from running dog lackeys.
He literally sold it to an online advertising company lol.
EDIT: haha, the best defence of this guy you guys can muster is "If you don't pay me, I'll sell your data to online advertising companies" and that this is some kind of good thing.
Maybe if you donated some money he wouldn't have had to.
Right. So you don't ever donate to anything, right? Just in case. The future. You know?
I'm impressed by how thoroughly you ignored the question of whether your own inaction was partly responsible for the outcome that occurred later, and which you dislike.
It has persuaded me that your own inaction was totally unrelated to this outcome.