Tesla reports 1.1% sales drop for 2024, first annual decline in at least 9 years
apnews.comI'm nearly 50. I'm used to the idea of businesses owners having different politics than my own, but mostly that was the sort of self-interested "I'm wealthy and I think wealthy people should pay fewer taxes and their businesses should be subject to fewer regulations" sorts of things. You can disagree without thinking they're necessarily Bad People or worthy of boycotting their businesses. Indeed, it's the hallmark of a healthy democracy that we can agree to disagree about various aspects of our society.
It's pretty rare to see, on the other hand, someone insert themselves into politics quite so loudly, and in such an extreme way. A lot of what we've seen from the head of that company in the past few years is playing footsie (and sometimes not very subtly) with outright anti-semitism and white supremacy.
I'm not ok with that.
I think it's more simply that the market of people who want an EV and can afford a Tesla is now saturated.
I don't think so.
At least from my personal experiences I know of at least a dozen sales that 3 years ago they would have made hands now. People compromise and buy what are clearly worse cars to avoid the Tesla brand. A friend just brought an ioniq a few months ago, same friend who was salivating over our Tesla a few years ago and kept talking about buying one endlessly. Guess why they didn't buy one..
Heck. I'm one of those people. We were customers for life. But my wife who loves our Tesla won't agree to ever buy one again. So we're back to VW. Yay...
I wish they would get rid of Musk. It would be nice if Tesla was just a car company.
I don't think Tesla can get rid of Musk.
If investors saw Tesla as just a car company the stock would collapse. Musk keeps making promises and breaking them, but it seems to pump the stock thus far.
> don't think Tesla can get rid of Musk
They can't and they shouldn't. Tesla has a solid business. It just looks like it may have capped out its growth prospects in the U.S. and Europe. (In vehicles.)
Tesla is certainly a solid memestock. It’s hard to say whether they have a solid business. If they dumped Musk, the stock would crash and they would have to install competent governance instead of continuously gaming the system. But that would be a better outcome for consumers.
They have a solid business. It's just not the world-changing fantastic future that Musk talks a big game about. That's fine. But "solid business" is not what has manufactured Tesla's ridiculous market cap.
If Tesla's valuation reflected its value as a regular car company like, say, Toyota, it would be vastly lower. Shareholders would lose oodles of money.
And it seems to US/European companies will ever be able to compete in China again. So what’s left?
I feel the same about Starlink, sadly. And unlike Tesla there are no real alternatives.
Man, I wish Musk would just stay out of the limelight and enjoy his private life inventing new industries and taking the occasional Mars vacation or whatever. There was really no need to jump into the deep end the way he did.
> It would be nice if Tesla was just a car company.
What is Tesla?
If it was just a car company, it wouldn’t have the P/E ratio it does. It’s a technology company that makes cars (and self driving systems, AI, and robots).
BYD is continuing what Tesla started: getting cheaper while scaling up battery and car production.
The market is there for worse and much cheaper electric cars, just not mainly in US.
There are at least four other competing Chinese electric car companies. Let’s not forget them, the rest of the world won’t.
The cars are actually quite nice. I have no complaints. It’s possible that maintenance issues will emerge later, but that has already happened for Tesla. At this point we can’t claim they’re lower quality.
The US market is there for a cheap, nice electric car. Tariffs make it untenable.
I think some of that demand is there in the US. My daily needs for a car would be satisfied with 100 mile range, allowing for a pretty generous buffer. I also sometimes need to drive beyond the range of an EV without wanting to think about recharging delays or possibly getting stranded.
I'd consider owning a very cheap small EV for my daily needs, but not at the prices they command today. Even something like a Nissan Leaf is far too expensive for that.
>I'd consider owning a very cheap small EV for my daily needs, but not at the prices they command today.
Is that due to EV prices or car prices in general? I guess it depends on where you are and what price you pay for electricity. But I also think a lot of people haven't internalized the price inflation of new and used cars in the last 4 years. A second generation Leaf with less that 25k miles can be had for less than $15,000, and it is should be eligible for a $4,000 used EV tax credit (if your income is under $150k):
I should probably sit down and do the math on elecricity vs. gas and the payback time, but for reference I am something of a bottom-feeder when it comes to cars. I have pretty good success with used ICE cars in the $4-6k range. I look for southern cars with no rust/salt damage. They are out there, but you won't find them on Carvana.
My current daily driver is a 20 year old Mercedes E class that I bought for $4k. It's a V8 and takes premium gas, but I average close to 20mpg and don't really drive enough miles for that to be a huge dealbreaker. With $4/gal gas I might burn $8/day with typical driving. That might be roughly 10 kWh in a Leaf? I don't know what the losses are in charging but if that's 20 kWh to recharge, that would be maybe $4/day? So I'd save maybe $80/month if I drive 20 days a month? That's all very wild guesstimating but seems like it would take 10 years to pay back the price difference, also considering that I could not really drive the Leaf on any longer trips at all.
Charging efficiency is ~85% efficient. As far as I can tell, when it comes to used cars in my area, $10k is the new $4k. No way would I buy a $4k car any more, and I'm in the market for a beater for a kid's car. $4,000 buys a 2003 Toyota Corolla with 250,000 miles and 9 previous owners and some moderate damage according to CarFax.
You have to look around but better cars are out there. I bought a '04 Mercedes E500 for $4k about 2 years ago. Had about 160k miles, no rust. Was it perfect, certainly not. Had some wear and tear but fundamentally was a solid car. I still see them in this price range today.
I totally get that someone might not want to deal with the unknowns and risks of a 20 year old car.
Good to know that the charging efficiency is better than I guessed. I'll have to run the numbers again next time I'm needing a car. EVs have an appeal, no doubt. But for me they have to make economic and practical sense.
German cars tend to be cheap because maintenance costs are crazy. The have more parts, and each part is more expensive.
You could easily get hit with a mechanic bill for greater than the value
40 miles is about 10kWh, yes, which would be 11.5kWh at the meter. I pay 7cents/kWh, so you're paying about 10X per mile as I am for fuel. I've driven old BMW's, and I had to budget about $3k/year for maintenance & repairs, I imagine your Merc is similar. So you're spending $400/month for your "cheap" car.
A 3 year old Tesla for 20K would likely save you a considerable amount of money.
I do my own maintenance and repair and don't spend anything close to that (not counting my time, but it's a hobby for me). Insurance and registration is also cheaper.
>should be eligible for a $4,000 used EV tax credit (if your income is under $150k):
This is only true if you do a joint file. If you're a single filer, it phases out once your income is above $75k, or $112k for heads of household.
Yes, thanks for the correction.
Perhaps if they had delivered a cheaper Tesla instead of a robotaxi that nobody asked for, won’t meet the needs of 90% of people wanting a taxi, and isn’t anywhere near ready to operate on public roads, the market would have expanded.
How about instead we offer you a $100k "truck" that can't do basic truck things, misses every single claimed feature, and has such poor basic engineering competency that it had at least one whistleblower?
Oh and it's stupid ugly as well.
My prediction is that Elon will be forced out of Tesla one way or another and then the company will quietly release a truck that will look vaguely like a Model S, but truck shaped and sized. It will be popular.
CAN Tesla still design cars? They haven't done so in like a decade.
Also Tesla cannot force Elon out, the stock would crater so bad. Also the board is 100% in his pocket, did you not see the nonsense with his "pay package"?
The main reason stock would crater so bad is that Elon is amazing salesman of shit he doesn't have and shit he has that doesn't work. His replacement would have to be just as savvy of a "salesman" to sell investor on "robotaxis" and other BS that leads to such an evaluation
That truck always reminds me of that Simpsons episode, where Homer designs a car.
I mean, it's not even like they have "delivered" a robotaxi, they have announced it and done a very controlled demo, but things they have announced in the past (like the new Roadster) have just not materialised, and their promise of full unsupervised self driving "next year" for the last seven or so years is now infamous...
Not to mention that even if you can afford a Tesla, my understanding is that the non-Tesla market has just gotten much better than it was over the last few years.
For a while, if you wanted a long range EV you could actually cross the country with, Tesla was it.
That's just not true anymore -- I'm coming up on year three with my non-Tesla, and it's been perfect, road trips and all.
Tesla still has its brand recognition and inertia in its favor, but it's tougher for them when you can get equally good if not better cars elsewhere.
May I ask what kind of car it is and where the road trips are from/to?
The last time I rented an EV in the SF Bay Area (a year or two ago, a Leaf), I had trouble even finding enough charging stations just to get around the area, like from SF to the South Bay and then to Santa Cruz. The few chargers I did find had several broken stations, multiple people waiting in line for the one working one, and it was very expensive. We wasted hours of time on that experience.
Has it gotten significantly better since then?
VW ID.4, road tripping around the northeast (NJ/NY) and midwest (to/fro Michigan).
In your case, the Leaf is the single EV that should never be or have been sold or rented out since around 2020. It's ancient and is the last EV lacking support for the major fast charging plugs in north America, so I'm not surprised you had charging issues! I'm really sorry they gave you that car!
Ah, I didn't know the Leaf was particularly bad. Guess I was just unlucky / uninformed. Good to know! I'd love to get an EV someday.
The public fast-charging situation is a lot better for anything that that has a CCS1 or Tesla/NACS port. Which is pretty much everything that isn't a Leaf. The 2011-2025 Leafs use the bulky CHAdeMO port for DC fast charging, which didn't catch on. The completely redesigned 2026 Leaf should be transitioning to NACS though.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/nissan/leaf/2026/
...also, pretty much anything other than the Chevy Bolt will fast-charge at a rate at least 2-3 times faster than the Leaf and possible even faster than that (depending on model).
I am incredibly relieved to hear that the Leaf is finally getting a redesign.
I chatted with a poor fellow in a Leaf trying and failing to charge on the single sad broken CHAdeMO plug at a station, and was just thinking... yeah, Nissan sold you a bad car, I'm really really sorry.
Which one?
VW ID.4! Definitely not the best car in the segment, but the best car at the time for the price. It's really been a dream of a vehicle!
I'd argue inflation and high interest rates have a large impact too. When every day necessities (shelter, food, healthcare, education) are +30% at a minimum, there's not a lot leftover for fancy cars for most Americans.
Economic self strangulation induced via the wealth gap. Its going to be economically impossible to build anything but luxury shoes next.
I could explain to a child how printing new money causes inflation, which we did twice since COVID.
How does the wealth gap cause inflation?
I don't claim to be an economist, but direct stimulus payments to Americans totaled about $2100 on average. The US economy is worth trillions annually. I'm sure the stimulus checks made a small bump on inflation in the short term, but they couldn't possibly drive sustained, systemic inflation. Unless you're talking about the broader fiscal packages for supporting businesses/unemployment benefits during COVID when you say "printing new money?"
> I could explain to a child how printing new money causes inflation, which we did twice since COVID.
We've printed money a dozen times in the 30 years prior to 2022. Economists predicted that all of them would cause inflation. None of them did.
In 2022 we had money printing and a supply side squeeze. Insisting that the inflation was caused by the money printing rather than the supply side squeeze takes incredible chutzpah.
The money printing in response to COVID followed by the the infrastructure bill were at a scale not seen before and shouldn't be so easily dismissed in reference to previous deficit spending.
Germany (and others) printed at a lower rate. If it was a momentary phenomenon, they would have appreciated against the dollar and seen less inflation. Instead they depreciated against the dollar and saw more inflation.
Because they had a greater supply shock.
edit: monetary phenomenon. Autocorrect ugh.
It massively inflates asset prices which disproportionately benefit those who are already wealthy (they also have easier access to capital).
>I think it's more simply that the market of people who want an EV and can afford a Tesla is now saturated.
Very likely, but I know of at least one person (me) who didn’t buy a Tesla due to what the parent comment brings up.
1. The electric car market grew in 2024 in the US.
2. Tesla is one of the more affordable electric cars.
I want an EV and can afford a Tesla and I will never buy anything from Elon Musk as long as I live exactly because of his behavior.
davidw wasn't implying that it was a cause, just commenting.
> rare to see, on the other hand, someone insert themselves into politics quite so loudly, and in such an extreme way.
Publicly sure. I assume it’s always been this way though. And I’m more concerned about the ones we’re unaware of.
> Publicly sure. I assume it’s always been this way
Then you're misreading history. You have to go back to the age of the robber barons to find private individuals with the power to shut down the government [1].
[1] https://apnews.com/article/elon-musk-congress-bipartisan-dea...
Same. I wish we can go back to the time of "I respectfully disagree with my esteemed opponent".
More than anything I'd just be embarrassed to drive in a Tesla. I can't believe the level of brand damage he did in such a short period of time.
The upside of having an outspoken public figure at the head is that he's in charge and takes ownership. It's pretty wild that you can have some failure in your Tesla, and you can just tweet about it and if its a compelling issue you'll get the CEO to respond and address it directly. Imagine trying to get the attention of someone from Ford.
I don't know if you can have it both ways. Either you're a faceless soulless corporation and you're dealing with PR people and can't get a straight answer, or you're dealing with someone in founder mode but you'll have to hear their political opinions if you choose to use the social media platform they also own.
In other words, I don't think him being eccentric and generally disagreeable is unrelated to him building great products and companies. I wish more founders were eccentric and taking risk rather than trying to squeeze out every last dime of profits by outsourcing or cutting corners or the million other marginal things an MBA program will teach you to do.
> I don't think him being eccentric and generally disagreeable is unrelated to him building great products and companies
Within the domain of the private sector, yes. The paedo comments were distasteful, but that's about it.
That changed when he became a political figure. (And a partisan one at that.) Musk, the brand, has fundamentally changed in a way that more resembles Soros or Murdoch than the bipartisan tech titan he was.
Your definition of "distasteful, but that's about it" is likely substantially understated from just about everyone else in the world.
> Your definition of "distasteful, but that's about it" is likely substantially understated from just about everyone else in the world
Social media isn't most of the world.
I don't like it. But I also don't like most of social media. Musk faced no consequences for his paedo comments. He is facing consequences for his partisan activism. That's the difference between being a public and political figure.
> Social media isn't most of the world.
Not sure why you think this implication applies to my comment. If he yelled the comments in a public square, my comment would be the same.
> my comment would be the same
As would mine. It's distasteful. But it brought and brings no consequences. Categorically distinct from his partisan activism.
Our definition of "no consequences" is very different, apparently. Have a good one.
He was never a tech titan. He’s always been a racist emerald mine heir who lied his way into everything. You really need to read this book to get your head adjusted properly on Musk:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludicrous:_The_Unvarnished_Sto...
You know who he donates to and know what he thinks. I'd prefer the other billionaires that just donate in private or buy a newspaper that until recently openly endorses candidates and has selective coverage of events based on politics
> I'd prefer the other billionaires that just donate in private or buy a newspaper that until recently openly endorses candidates and has selective coverage of events based on politics
Sure. This isn't most prospective EV buyers. It's not a coincidence that the most-popular car colours are white, grey and black [1]. At the end of the day, most people don't want a loud car.
[1] https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/what-are-the-best-car-colors-...
He can also disable your car remotely if you mess around with the innards too much. Or otherwise target you for harassment if you annoy him.
> He can also disable your car remotely if you mess around with the innards too much
And will.
Like if you poke around and find the existence of a new model car...
They'll remotely force downgrade your firmware, and remotely disable ports on your car so you can't upgrade it again.
> Or otherwise target you for harassment if you annoy him.
Or hold press conferences if you are in a fatal accident to make sure you get the blame, not whatever garbage happened to pass for Full Self Driving. And blatantly lie in the process. "The vehicle had been warning the driver about inattentiveness before the accident". No, Elon, the vehicle fired ONE "hand on steering wheel" warning, and it was EIGHTEEN MINUTES before the accident.
> It's pretty wild that you can have some failure in your Tesla, and you can just tweet about it and if its a compelling issue you'll get the CEO to respond and address it directly.
I'd imagine just regular old good customer service would suffice but, you do you.
Regular good old customer service used to be pretty great, but it’s gone way down hill in the last couple years.
I guess it speaks more to his utter lack of social skills than anything how he has managed to convince both the far left and far right he is simultaneously an Elder of Zion super-Liberal enemy as well as a white supremacist fascist enemy. Comments supporting both readings keep popping up as replies and then get insta-flagged.
You have almost no far left in the US. You have extreme ID politics (that are distributed on the far right, the right, the "extreme center" and socdems) and a bastardized radical center[0] that include almost every politicians, even those who appear socdems or far-right. And here i'm using far-right to designate people who want to come back on minority rights, and i separate it from the right.
(Because when supposed "far left" organizations use the word "empowerment", i just facepalm, that's "third way" bullshit imho)
I think Musk doesn't really understand his politics, and that's what hurt him. He should be in the extreme center (with Hillary, or Bush), but he was caught in ID politics for a long time.
> You have almost no far left in the US.
Overton window.
Obviously "left" vs "right" depends on the geography and time period. Otherwise, it becomes very hard to talk about politics.
Not really, historically far-left is the revolutionary left, the one you see organize global strikes (they don't believe in representation democracy, only in direct democracy, bottom up, so it is _very_ rare to see them participate in elections). Since global strikes are forbidden in the US, you'll have to define it by its negative: anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist always, anti-globalist sometime.
You have some groups who have a far-left affects in the US, but honestly since the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition they are either ideologically weak or ineffective.
So I can understand the distribution of this definition, what % of governments in world history have been far-left?
Practically, no government, at least not long-lasting one. Far leftist see the state (and government) as innately oppressive. So some will say Russia from 1917 to 1921, I kinda disagree. Some communes were far-left though (communes are a better echelon for far-left ideas in general), the oldest were the platformists in Ukraine, they fought against Germany (Lenine sold Ukraine to them, Ukrainian anarchists disagreed), then the Russian white army, then lost to the Russian red army. Way more recently, some far-left adjacent communes debuted in Mexico, because Mexico constitution allows them to exist, but they're still within a state (they mostly self-organized to repel cartels extortion). Think Israeli kibbutz.
Imho this is 'normal'. Far-left ideals do not seem to work at large scale.
> only in direct democracy,
I thought far-left is typically vanguardist and doesn’t believe in any type of [real] democracy? Dictatorship of the proletariat and all that stuff..
Dictatorship of the proletariat is supposed to be in theory a transition period. In practice, once you get the power, you keep it.
Other on the far left will rather go a more local route, destroying state structure (as state is oppressive by nature) in the beginning to create a collective bottom up.
I'm not saying any of this is a good idea btw, it's just that far-left has fled the US a long time ago. If you aren't revolutionary, you aren't far-left.
I am not in the US but thanks for the info.
the "dark MAGA" bit was very unusual, not sure what musk was thinking there
It's pretty common in third world countries.
The blue tribe are especially riled about Elon Musk belonging to the red tribe… because Musk once belonged to the blue tribe.
To tribal types, there’s nothing worse than an apostate.
I could sit down and have a great conversation with, say, Mitt Romney or GWB, I bet. I'd learn something about the world and how they view it and their thoughts and ideas.
The white supremacy stuff is just trash though. That's not "tribes", it's unacceptable.
> The white supremacy stuff is just trash though. That's not "tribes", it's unacceptable.
Are you really branding Elon Musk a "white supremacist?" Based on what? Some ill-advised retweet of a crank on Twitter?
The "but that's not the real Musk" game doesn't work anymore. They aren't "ill-advised" retweets. They are who and what he is. Increasingly they are all he is. Musk is the crank on Twitter.
Musk spends all day, every day showing you who and what he is. Believe him.
Here are two exercises for you:
1. Musk is keen on criticizing many governments, both foreign and domestic. Can you find for me a single criticism of the Chinese government from Musk?
2. Musk likes to spread conspiracy theories. Musk says he is a technologist. Musk says he knows a lot about computers. Musk says the last thing he would do is trust a computer program:
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/musk-pushes-debunked-...
Can you reconcile Musk's position that he would never trust a computer program with his claim that Tesla has a full-self driving computer program that does full autonomy (this time for sure!) and everyone should trust it (it will save lives!) and buy it and rent it and hail a robotaxi?
[flagged]
Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
Okay, dang, my bad - I should never have replied to the comment in the first place.
[flagged]
If you keep breaking the site guidelines like this, we're going to have to ban you. We've already asked you more than once not to.
But they have been doing it forever. Soros, Epstein, SBF, Bezos... Your ideal is noble but perhaps a little naive.
>someone insert themselves into politics quite so loudly
Soros and Epstein did it quietly. I’d wager that most people have never heard anything from Soros himself or know what he has actually done, but merely have heard that he uses his wealth to influence politics. Usually as an attack against an idea or group. Epstein is certainly not known for influencing politics. And quite frankly, flew under the radar for the general public until the end of his life in 2019.
People outside tech or finance would not know who SBF is unless you told them exactly what he did and then maybe they’d remember a news article about it.
Bezos might be the best example you provide, but I don’t think he rises to the loudness of Musk.
Why is Musk be loud about his politics worse than other billionaires being quiet but equally active in the political scene? It's good to know where these people stand.
The quiet billionaires put up something they care a great deal about. Musk's nonsenses in the US can be interpreted many ways but his screwing Germany and the UK with his incoherent stoner thoughts is basically letting off steam at everyone's expense because a lot of people are too stupid to understand how compartmentalized success is and that he doesn't necessarily even know who he is talking about.
There's a difference between being loud and purchasing a seat at the table.
All the others purchased seats too, they just keep quiet about it.
Multiple things can be bad at the same time. Those other billionaires are off topic in a post about Tesla. Musk isn't.
> Why is Musk be loud about his politics worse than other billionaires being quiet but equally active in the political scene?
Musk's involvement is on the level of e.g. Rupert Murdoch or the Adelsons. It's well beyond even most billionaires' political activities.
I'm not denying that. I think it might open some people's eyes to the reality that we live in.
In the same way that murderers should get some credit for opening people's eyes to the reality that there are other murderers.
After criticizing Israel he was "invited" over there, was completely deferential and wore the symbol of the Israel army in interview.
Sorry, a real antisemite wouldn't do that. What likely happened is that his comments were taken out of context and deliberately misinterpreted by the "left" (i.e., corporate and establishment friendly) media.
Instead of "left", you can call them liberals or radical centrists, but that would include part of the Republicans as well, and people on the democrat party who really believe in what they say/think.
My preferred is "extreme centre" but that's a bit more niche, and i think pretty much unknown for the anglo world, although Tariq Ali wrote a book on it[0] which is too political for me (i like the politics inside, but the issue is that the only english book that talk about this term is pretty much marked politically when it should be universal[1])
[0]https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39705210-the-extreme-cen...
[1] But that's not surprising, it kinda confirm my theory about politics and propension to read outside/academic sources
and yet he supports the AfD, far-right "influencers", re-platformed actual nazis, doesn't think j6 was terrorism. the only reason he isn't antisemitic is because he hates muslims more, but either way it's all fascism and racism and none of it is right.
Previous years vehicle sales for Tesla (TSLA - stock ticker) - source: https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-manufacture...
Year Sales Percent Increase from prev. yr
2023 1,808,581 ↑ 32%
2022 1,369,611 ↑ 47%
2021 930,422 ↑ 83%
For reference: BYD Auto sold 4.27 million vehicles 41.3% jump from 2023 and has already roughly 50% of Tesla's revenue. May go past Tesla in 1-2 years.
TSLA is #13 biggest car manufacturer by revenue.
In contrast, BYD sold over 500,000 vehicles in December alone.
https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/byds-ev-sales-surged-2024-eno...
The Chinese automobile companies are unmatched in this. It’s just that the US has sufficient protectionism to protect its local market. But these guys are a wave like the origin of the Japanese automobile. It’s going to make life hard for American manufacturers just as the developing nations are getting rich enough for automobile purchases.
But none in the US and only very few in the EU.
The current 100% tariff on EVs from China^[1] may play a large part in the US market. The latest Xiaomi seems like a pretty good deal. Even Ford's CEO said he had been driving it for the last 6 months to understand the competition better and he didn't want to go back to his old car^[2]. I won't bother though since I have to pay double.
[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases...
[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-far...
Patience. I saw my first BYD in the UK yesterday. Definitely on their way.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no real fan of them, but they are coming. Significant models have only just been released. In 5 years they'll be a big player here. Too early at the moment.
Many in Europe. I see them every day now. Chinese brands are taking over the entire industry. They are cheaper and better. Well played by the chinese.
That includes hybrids though :S
BYD's EV sales in Q4 were 595,413 in contrast to Tesla's 495,570.
from https://carnewschina.com/2025/01/01/byd-sold-record-breaking...
BYD sold a record-breaking 514,809 new energy vehicles (NEVs) in December, bringing the cumulative 2024 sales to 4,272,145 units, up 41.3% compared to 3 million in 2023. This marks the first time BYD sold over 4 million cars annually. Out of it, 1,764,992 were passenger BEVs (battery electric vehicles), an increase of 12% from 1.6 million in 2023. All-electric vehicles represented 41.5% of BYD’s total sales in 2024. BYD sold 2,485,378 passenger PHEVs (plug-in hybrid vehicles) in 2024, up 72.8% from 1.4 million in 2023. Plug-in hybrids represented 58.5% of BYD’s total sales in 2024.
My friend said it best: "EVs are great second cars"
I think we're finally hitting the saturation point of EVs as the market who adopted them is realizing their flaws as a primary vehicle:
- Inadequate infrastructure (both localized "my apartment doesn't have a charging station" and more globally "I stopped at a supercharger station and it was full of people so my charge went from 100 kW to 15 kW and took 45 min to charge")
- Lack of experience and knowledge around regenerative breaking
- Poor battery performance in cold/extreme heat
- Misunderstood maintenance changes. Instead of oil changes/filters/etc, your tires wear 20~30% faster and you have to replace the battery every 10 years.
The reality is it's not me that's saying this, the used car market is saying this. EVs simply don't hold their value on the used market.
https://www.iseecars.com/cars-that-hold-their-value-study
FYI - I'm a proud owner of a Rivian after selling my Tesla.
> My friend said it best: "EVs are great second cars"
I disagree. We've had an EV for ~5 years now, and have put about 10x as many miles on it as we have on our gasoline vehicle. The gasoline vehicle is the second car, and the EV is what we prefer for road trips.
> your tires wear 20~30% faster
Not in my experience, I'm getting 70k from a set of tires, which is comparable to previous cars. Just because a car can accelerate quickly doesn't mean you should.
> and you have to replace the battery every 10 years.
No you don't. Tesla's and BMW i3's from ~2013 are testing at around 85% battery capacity. https://www.wired.com/story/electric-cars-could-last-much-lo...
> The reality is it's not me that's saying this, the used car market is saying this.
Absolutely. You can buy a 3 year old Tesla Model 3 for $20k, cheaper than a comparable gasoline car, and seems like an excellent deal. If it wasn't for the Musk stigma we'd likely be purchasing one to replace our gasoline car.
> Not in my experience
Anecdotal. Just do a few google searches and the data says 20~30%. Torque, weight, etc. all conclude this. Just go into a discount tire and the guys will tell you this is true.
> Just because a car can accelerate quickly doesn't mean you should.
You've reinforced my point - which is most people don't know how to drive EVs with maintenance in mind.
> NTesla's and BMW i3's from ~2013 are testing at around 85% battery capacity.
So then why not warrant against it if this is so certain? Also, ICE gas tanks don't get smaller over time.
> So then why not warrant against it if this is so certain?
They do. 8 years / 100,000 mile warranties suggest that ~3 sigma lifetime is at that level. IOW, Tesla likely believes that >99.5% of all cars will not need a warranty battery replacement by that point. To hit that level, the average car needs to do a lot better than that.
> Also, ICE gas tanks don't get smaller over time.
If measured in miles/tank, they definitely do. The gas mileage a 10 year old car gets is worse than the same car when it was new.
So then why not warrant against it if this is so certain? Also, ICE gas tanks don't get smaller over time.
The warrant the same and more than what is powertrain warranty on ICE. this worry about battery is just silly, especially newer batteries. I had more trouble with ICE once I hit 100k than with the EV. Personally, with 11-year old Tesla S - still on original brakes (you don't really brake with regen braking) - battery is at 90% (free supercharging so the car has basically always been supercharged) - replaced tires once, at 60k - had to replace a model to move to 5G - have incurred not a single penny of other expenses in the last 11 years
which is most people don't know how to drive EVs with maintenance in mind.
so basically what you are saying here would be like if I took my iphone and put it in the oven and then complained that it doesn't work quite like it should...
> so basically what you are saying here would be like if I took my iphone and put it in the oven and then complained that it doesn't work quite like it should...
Not really. This is such an odd analogy. It has no context around the fact that the population has been accelerating and breaking on a different paradigm for decades. So, it'd be like saying you had to put your iPhone in the microwave once a day and then asking people to put it in the oven instead.
> you have to replace the battery every 10 years
That's like saying you have to replace a dishwasher every year because it only comes with a 1-year warranty.
> reality is it's not me that's saying this, the used car market is saying this. EVs simply don't hold their value on the used market
Those data defy simple explanation. The car with the highest 5-year depreciation is the Maserati Quattroporte (64.5%). After that the BMW 7 Series (61.8%) and Maserati Ghibli (61.3%).
So for starters, you have to control for (a) sports and (b) expensive cars. Niches EVs have targeted. The Model 3 is shown to have a 42.9% 5-year depreciation, around the category average for SUVs.
> you have to control for (a) sports and (b) expensive cars.
Fair. But the opposite is also true...Porsche 911 and 718 are both 9% and 17% depreciation values respectively, which bring the overall averages down too. Not to mention the Model S is #19 in worst depreciation. So there are a lot of factors at play other than simply saying "just eliminate all sports/expensive cars"
> The Model 3 is shown to have a 42.9% 5-year depreciation, around the category average for SUVs.
You first made a point about comparing apples to oranges (which was fair) and then compared apples to oranges to make another same point. /headscratch
You would have to compare a Model 3 to a sedan, not an SUV. Point is, if EVs are as valuable as people make them out to be and the demand is so high for them, then why isn't the used car market telling us that?
I think the $7,500 federal tax credit screws up most people's depreciation calculation. Or at least not keeping that in mind skews people's perception. For example, I purchased a Nissan Leaf years ago, when it was still eligible for the full $7,500 credit. The MSRP was ~$28k. But I only paid ~$21.5k. So it seems like it suffered 23% depreciation the day I drove it off the lot, since no one would pay more than that for a used one, otherwise, they can just buy it brand new for $21.5k themselves. But that 23% number doesn't affect the owner of the car.
> You would have to compare a Model 3 to a sedan, not an SUV
My point is that EV has a depreciation rate comparable to that of a popular automobile category. We wouldn't conclude adversely against SUVs for that number; we similarly shouldn't for the Model 3.
> if EVs are as valuable as people make them out to be and the demand is so high for them
The drumbeat of the last year has been about flagging demand for EVs. Who is saying demand is so high?
> Who is saying demand is so high?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/03/cars/musk-tesla-cars-value-ev...
It does not go down to 15kw.
At old Tesla stations it went from 150kw to 75kw.
Any v3 station (first introduced in 2019!) will stay at 150kw to 250kw. I haven't seen a v2 station in 2 years now.
You also don't need a battery based on its age, you need it based on its mileage. Some people like my wife only drive 8k miles a year, which is more around 20 years...
> It does not go to 15kw
It goes to whatever the software tells it to, which is based on the following factors:
- What percentage the battery is at when it starts charging
- Environmental conditions (cold/heat)
- How many other cars are being charged (IIRC most super charger stations don't supply the max amps * the number of ports - they assume some cars will be throttled)
A v3 can get up to 250 kW but only under optimal conditions. The more EVs on the road, the less optimal it becomes.
> You also don't need a battery based on its age, you need it based on its mileage. Some people like my wife only drive 8k miles a year, which is more around 20 years
True, but for reference, "Tesla also provides an 8-year warranty (or up to 150,000 miles, depending on the model) for its batteries, guaranteeing at least 70% capacity retention during this period". The average consumer doesn't understand that their car gets less range over time after use.
The average consumer doesn't understand that their car gets less range over time after use.
right, the average consumer never owned anything which runs on a battery before and those rare folk that might have owned like a cellphone surely think that cars have MAGIC batteries which unlike every other battery they have ever owned is going to be rock n roll for decades
Cellphones didn't previously run on gasoline.
you used to have to roll the windows down with your hand but people are somehow managing to push the bottom now to do the same :)
Dude you're flat out guessing about how they work, and you're embarrassingly wrong about the results. V3 Superchargers reliably output 250kW every time you pull up. Their power sharing between cabinets ensures this. Environmental conditions don't affect them due to very efficient thermal management and preconditioning.
They explicitly said this about their new V4s:
> Posts can peak up to 500kW for cars, but we need less than 1MW across 8 posts to deliver maximum power to cars 99% of the time
If your EV battery isn't pre-conditioned for cold driving, it can and will get down to low double digits. That said, it's only an issue in winter and colder climes.
OPs comment says - if theres too many cars it goes down to 15kw.
That has nothing to do with conditioning.
Our diesel truck is our second vehicle we use when we go on long trips or when doing a hike in the forrest. Our model X is used daily. Perfect car. Cheap and reliable. Only 15 bucks for 300 miles.
We're a 2 EV family and have had no problems whatsoever. We do have a 3rd gas vehicle (older minivan) but that's mostly because when we bought the 2nd EV there were no reasonably priced 3-row vehicles (No, the Model X and Model Y don't count as a real 3 row), and we never got around to selling it.
Yeah, EVs aren't yet at gas car parity but it's close enough for many people. We really don't do much interstate traveling and live in a sunny state.
I have a Tesla Model 3 and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned, but I won’t be getting another when my lease is up, solely because I don’t want to give any more money to Elon. My next car might be a Lucid, but I’ll see what the market is like in a couple of years.
I do find it interesting that people think of Tesla as being a luxury brand though. I mean, sure, the Model S and Cybertruck are expensive, but you can get a Model 3 for $40k (before $7500 federal credit plus whatever incentives your state has). This is lower than the average new car price of $48k and the same as the top-end RAV4. The Model 3 is cheaper than most other electric cars in its class, and is likely the reason why Musk thinks getting rid of the federal credit will hurt his competitors more than him.
Good. Musk has aligned himself with a number of people that have designs on forcing Europe’s hand to abandon Ukraine and make a strong return to Russian gas and Saudi oil. Russia and the oil rich Middle East have no desire to see an energy independent Europe powered by renewables and long term battery storage.
He could be busy further developing battery technology to further enable decarbonization and energy decentralization based on renewables.
Having founded an EV company, you’d think that would be a core value he would hold, however everything he currently signals speak to the opposite.
I cannot fathom why on earth he now seems to be working against himself, and alienating his core customer base, who were most likely to buy EV’s — green, liberal, “woke”, left leaning consumers.
maybe he has plans to release a gas-powered cybertruck in a few years
It is only going to get worse for Tesla.
Musk went all in extreme right-wing. Even though most "green" buyers are left leaning.
I started disliking Musk after his pedo comments in regards to the cave rescuers. The smart/geeky/techy guy is a facade.
I mainly would not consider Tesla because of Musk. The poor build quality just reinforces that stance.
I'm not really anti Elon, in fact I agree with a lot of what he says, but I just cannot get over that paedo comment. That said a lot about his character.
He also recently called for the execution of a government witness: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
The mask is completely off at this point.
Disturbing as hell. I'd never heard this before.
100% same re the pedo tweet.
Though sometimes I remember how just about everyone in my life that I love, respect and have spent a lot of time with has said something stupid, insecure, distasteful or offensive at some point. Everyone makes mistakes and says or does something out of character when they are at their worst. The difference with Elon is that so much of what he says is so public.
Some of my friends who are extremely anti-Elon biased will say things like " as a CEO of a company he shouldn't be so public about his opinions", and I don't get why they feel that way. I ask inquisitively and I never get a clear logical answer that doesn't resemble something like "because I don't like his opinions".
However, as far as I can tell their opinions of his opinions is based on some article they read, and not from a long-form conversation or statement where all the nuance and context of his opinions is included.
It seems like people's opinion of Elon has everything to do with what information they have, and what information they have has everything to do with where they are getting it. Some people have listened to the podcast interviews Elon has been on and have a more in-depth grasp of his stances on things with all the nuance, and some people only read articles about an outrageous tweet he made. If you only get one or the other of these channels of information, you will have very different perspectives on him.
> Though sometimes I remember how just about everyone in my life that I love, respect and have spent a lot of time with has said something stupid, insecure, distasteful or offensive at some point
You don't think there's maybe a bit of difference between "has said something stupid, insecure, distasteful or offensive at some point", and "has said something stupid, insecure, or distasteful multiple times a day every day since spending $44B for the privilege to project those stupid, insecure, distasteful or offensive statements as far and wide as possible"?
he should keep his opinions to himself because he wields more power than billions of people combined, is the richest man in the world, and has said and done pretty heinous things. platforming nazis and right-wing white supremacists, siding with fascists who tried to stage a coup, calls for the murder of muslims, calls for the removal of rights for trans people, and is now calling for treason charges against politicians who did not support donald trump.
not only that, but he disowned his child, calls people slurs and insults them for not supporting him, and is just generally an unpleasant person. he bought an election and unfathomable power, pretty uncool if you ask me.
he also hasn't said one or two messed up things, he tweets them every second. if you are apologising for a racist/white supremacist/nazi/fascist you should look very heavily in the mirror. and if you support the things he supports, well, good luck.
> calls for the murder of muslims, calls for the removal of rights for trans people, and is now calling for treason charges against politicians
Please provide evidence of these claims.
The thing is, I don't think most of what you just wrote is accurate, fair, intellectually honest or true.
1) You don't feel he has the right to voice his opinions because he is rich and powerful? Why? Do you prefer the rich and powerful influence your life in secret? Why? 2) I don't believe that he wields more power than billions of people. Do you really believe that? Surely thousands, maybe millions, but definitely not billions. You are exaggerating by at least 3 orders of magnitude. 3) Have you considered that there are far more wealthy people whose wealth isn't public information? 4) What heinous things has he done? (Excluding tweets, which I would argue falls under "said" and not "done") 5) Have you carefully considered what happens if anyone with a controversial view on a topic is silenced from public discussion? What do you think the long-term consequences are of de-platforming large numbers of people for their opinions on controversial topics? What if those topics need to be worked out in order for us to advance? What if deplatforming nazi's leads to more nazi's and not the other way around?
Also, a lot of the things you are accusing Elon of saying/doing don't match my understanding/experience. calling for the murder of muslims? Removal of rights for trans people? treason charges against politicions for their political views?
None of those things sound like things Elon would actually say/do. Can you point me to examples of them? (You would be educating me, and you may sway my opinion by expanding what I know).
Every day I question what is true and right and virtuous. I want to be good. My strategy is to stay curious, and not just accept the first thing I learn about a new subject. I read about things that are happening from a lot of different sources. When someone tells me that a person is evil/nazi/etc, and I go and listen to the things that person is saying, usually they aren't actually evil/nazi/etc they are just challenging the existing power structures or trying to shine light on uncomfortable truths.
I am not apologizing for anyone, but I do want to empathize with everyone, and most of all I want to understand what is true. I also want to forgive the things that warrant being forgiven. I have seen no compelling evidence that Elon is racist, white supremacist, nazi or facist, and me questioning you labelling him with such is not me apologizing, its me scratching my head wondering why you would label him as such. Genuinely curious, why would our perspectives on this be so different?
Where are you getting your information, and where am I getting my information?
Word to the wise, don't label curious people racist/white supremacist/nazi/fascist apologists, unless you want to be governed by tyranny, and if you do, well, good luck.
Lucid Air is quite a nice car.
My next EV will be a Lucid if I choose to start driving again.
Lucid is a bit too expensive for me. However, Hyundai seems to make decent EVs. I will consider one after I upgrade my electrical panel to support decent charge speed.
The newest Kia (Hyundai's sister brand) EV6 can also do massive V2L - can support 12kW power - combine that with a transfer switch, and your car doubles as your backup battery/generator.
Lucid is majority controlled by Saudi PIF.
https://eletric-vehicles.com/lucid/saudi-pif-now-controls-64...
Too expensive, thats the big issue, EV's that are decent outside of tesla are just so fuckin expensive, or from legacy automakers that seem to just want to shove a EV engine in a shitty old design
Lucid is a luxury brand and it has a better quality interior and comfort than a Tesla. I’ve only ever owned a Tesla, Mazda, Subaru, and a Honda so note that’s my only personal experience.
I used to have a P3D, and Tesla interiors do feel quite lacking compared to the Lucid Air I sat in at the mall. My friend has had a Lucid for a while and it still has a solid feel. I didn’t hear any creaks or rattles and it felt solid inside, if that makes sense.
Eh, IMHO both Hyundai and GM have really tried with their latest platforms to make a range of quality EVs.
Isn't it a 39% drop? From 38% rise in 2023 to -1% drop 2024?
No, the -1% drop in 2024 was off of 2023's amount. It would have to be a -1% drop off of 2022's amount to cancel out 2023's gains.
[flagged]
Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
After owning a Model Y for a year I have to say -- it's the best car I've ever had. Comfortable ride, the visibility with the cameras is great, amazing all-weather traction. It's freakin' fast. The voice-to-navigate works nearly 99% of the time which, given my experiences with Alexa and Siri, is quite impressive.
All the usual EV caveats apply though. Being able to charge at home is a must. Living in a cold weather state is probably not advised. Multi-state road trips are doable but not recommended; it's just too much of a hassle. Keep a gas car for that. And I still don't trust any driving assist more advanced than enhanced cruise control.
I have no emotional response to Musk so that doesn't color my opinion of the car.
> it's the best car I've ever had
That's going to be true for many car sales. People don't usually downgrade on cars, and there is real progress on car features over a typical period between buying cars. It'll be especially true if a brand like Tesla where most if their sales are coming from people who previously owned significantly cheaper cars.
It's also just standard human psychology after you've spent $40k, advertisers have relied on this for decades.
norway was almost full EV purchases last year. cold weather issues are totally exacerbated.
also, i drove in a tesla, and the number of cameras doing weird and confusing things with bad perspectives weirded me out. i don't know why, but it just felt wrong, and too much information on the screen too. like they tried to do every technical thing just because.
and if you don't think musk is a danger, idk what to tell you. either you support him or you just don't care about human life.
Norway is also less than half the size of Texas with even that population heavily concentrated in the south near the ports.
North America is .... Big. Like really big. So discussions around vehicle range might be dramatically differently depending on location.
Not saying you are wrong though just something to consider
The parts of Norway where most of the populations lives have warmer winters than most of the northern US states except the ones near the Pacific ocean.
The "being able to charge at home" is why I recently purchased an petrol powered Subaru.
But every online comment and guide telling people to simply install a charger in their driveway assumes a certain amount of privilege, and I feel a lot of this discussion just assumes everyone has that privilege. I'm currently living in an apartment, my underground car park has no power runs anywhere near my car. Before that I lived in a rented house, and getting permission to install anything that required drilling a single hole would have been a non starter.
this is more of a problem with the power of landlords and bad regulations for the average person. in europe in a lot of countries renters have the right to make changes and in some even the right to have EV chargers installed
On impulse a few years ago I decided to drive our Model 3 on a multi-state road trip that'd take us through Colorado, Utah, Nevada, California, up through Oregon, then back to Colorado instead of our perfectly fine ICE car. I use the car mostly for local, sub-50 mile drives, which it excels at, and never considered it as a road trippable car (less because of the powertrain and more because of lack of road trips in general).
I have zero regrets about picking the EV at the last minute, and would 100% make this choice again. I assumed, like I imagine most people do, that having to wait while charging would be a deal breaker. I quickly learned to love the wait though. It makes long road trips so much more comfortable when you take a break every 6 hours that's long enough to go for a walk or take a nap.
I could employ that strategy with an ICE car, sure, but if I compare my ICE to my EV, the differences between the two in terms of comfort, functionality, and cost of operating put the EV way out ahead of the ICE.
> it's the best car I've ever had
What other cars you had before?
None of your positives resonate.
I'll never buy a Tesla. A decade ago I was a huge fan.
Most likely option at the moment is the Hyundai ioniq 5 N ... not only a better drivers car than anything Tesla have ever put out, but I don't have to swallow the Musk emotional tax or have his smell lingering over the purchase ...
I'll ... never ... buy ... a ... Tesla.
The brand is over.
I was just arguing with someone about this over the holidays when they could not believe I would pass up on a Tesla even if it was free.
Forget about Elon being and the company culture, there's practical reasons for me not wanting to own one of these even though I could afford one.
Living in cold Canadian province, there would be no upside to owning one of these. Just more hassle. If given one I'd sell it probably for less than the market value just so I can get a more practical hybrid or gas guzzler car.
That's not to say that there aren't other Teslas around here, but for me it just would not be worth the hassle.
As a former Tesla Model 3 owner (it got totaled from getting rear-ended) and now own a Ford Mach-E as well as a Toyota RAV-4 Prime (plugin hybrid), yeah I totally agree. Cold weather is the worst for EV cars. You have to spend so much energy keeping the batteries warm on top of spending more energy to keep the cabin comfortable.
Heck even the RAV-4 is a problem because it uses a heat pump instead of resistance heating, which means it can't heat the cabin in full EV mode when the temp is < 20F, so I force it into gas mode to stay warm on those days.
Not sure how you fix this problem, other than just continuing to improve energy density in batteries to where you don't think about it anymore.
There's no reason you should be getting downvoted for this, and I say this as someone who loves their Model 3. You're stating a fact about yourself that is, at the very least, loosely relevant to the posted article.
It's like a bunch of people who are a fan of the color yellow got mad when you said you're not a fan of yellow.
Assuming it's due to Elon. Any moral qualms driving a VW, Mercedes, BMW, or Toyota?
Each has taken, uh, far more aggressive actions in their respective pasts.
If only people had this much vitriol for companies with non-publicly evil ceos.
Have to start somewhere.
Why's there so much hate for Tesla here on HN?
Hated for Tesla isn't here on HN. It's out in the world.
Back even 5 years ago the brand was crazy hot. Everyone loved it. People at work, driving around, students on campus would stop me to ask about it. There was nothing else you could drive that signaled you cared about the environment and wanted to do something about it.
Now, the brand is completely toxic.
People talk about it apologetically. No one is proud or happy to own one. The best anyone says now is that there was nothing else good on the market at the time or they bought it before.
Heck. My wife loves our Tesla. Never wanted to drive anything else. We were going to keep buying them until the end of time. She now refuses to buy another one.
If you told me a few years ago that in a few months I'll be buying a VW instead of a Tesla I would have thought you were crazy.
Really, in my circles it's gone from a positive signal to an embarrassing negative one at best.
For "no one is proud or happy to see one" I sure see a lot of cybertrucks.
Kind of like twitter too
The CEO of Tesla has just called for the UK govenment to free one of the UK's most prominent far-right activists Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon (also known as Tommy Robinson) from prison.
Musk has an affinity for figures like this, and he even had some interactions with this particular individual, who is less well-known.
https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-far-right-prodigy-dr...
Musk tried to frame the situation as if the person was sentenced for sharing memes, but the reality involved more serious charges, including weapons-related offenses.
The same applies to the AFD. In 2022, a group called "Patriotische Union" plotted a coup to overthrow the German government, and several AFD figures were involved in the plan. To now seem him fanboying over AFD is nuts.
All it took for me was renting their vehicle to drive and finding that the controls for everything we're terrible, just awful to use while trying to operate a vehicle. Turning on the windshield wipers? Gotta fill out your taxes on the touch screen. Changing the direction of the AC? Don't look at the road, look at our "fancy animated widget for changing which way the air blows". It was shockingly poorly thought out and a total bandaid over them cheaping out just having buttons for things you'll do every time you drive.
Driving their cars is what made me hate their cars.
Did you try the very latest models that don't have an indicator stalk? Not even kidding on this one either. If you thought removing the wiper stalk was bad try the latest Tesla models! No indicator stalk!
I wouldn't be surprised at all if US politics was far lesser of an impact than the actual car itself.
Same reason there is so much love for Tesla here on HN. It's polarizing, and its CEO even more, to the point people lose the ability to have an opinion beside totally awesome or entirely terrible.
Myself I think the cars are bland inside for their aim of luxury, the driving assists is terrible for its aimed goal, but the overall car is okay. Except their most recent rust bucket which is clearly a meme car and I don't know why they went ahead with that.
From a UK perspective its where all the BMW drivers ended up; Universal bellends, a danger to be around.
I'm sure most the country at large don't know/care about X.com/Election stuff.
I'm not just trolling when I say, is that a serious question? Like, really. How could you live in this day and age and legitimately wonder why many people on HN wouldn't like Tesla?
Plenty of independent, valid reasons to dislike the guy. Some of them are purely political. Some have nothing to do with politics. You might not agree or value these, but that isn't the same as them being invalid:
1) he's an anti-trans right winger. If you aren't, you might dislike him.
2) he's boastful and prideful, which some people find irritating.
3) he lies, constantly about the capabilities and timeliness of his companies. If you are excited about EVs or space or tunnel boring you might dislike the hype->reality->hype cycle.
4) guy is... kinda just an asshole online?
5) if you believe billionaires are fundamentally people who got their money exploitatively, you'll dislike musk.
6) you might disagree with his stewardship of key technologies in space or evs. He's made prioritization decisions one might disagree with.
7) he made high speed rail in California more difficult through the hyperloop nonsense
8) he's anti worker and anti union, and many people here are workers or union members and find the way he treats his employees as unethical.
9) he's has a history of having many children out of wedlock, and kinda ignoring those children and women
10) he has positions about birth rates that could be just esoteric or could be great replacement theory racism and it's unclear which is true.
Probably many reasons beyond these. If someone believes one of these, they might leave a pretty tepid comment.
If someone believes multiple of these, odds are good they'll see Musk as a villain.
11, for an immigrant who overstayed their visa he sure has some spicy views on immigration
Self-driving is a bucket of lies and a travesty with regard to safety and ethics when compared to something like Waymo.
Lots of questionable design decisions clearly coming from the top, such as capacitive/touch controls for everything (turn signals? horn?!) and, well, the entire Cybertruck.
Mediocre build quality. Dated body designs. Lack of CarPlay.
Comically overvalued stock.
The CEO’s repulsive politics and behavior.
As the face of the company, Elon continues to make it political. As a Tesla owner myself I'm annoyed by his politics, both personal and as it relates to labor and manufacturing.
The FSD promises continue to underwhelm. The prices have not gone down. I personally wish Carplay/Android Auto were supported. Cybertrucks are polarizing stylistically.
Lots of reasons to not want a Tesla these days. Fewer and fewer reasons to root for them.
I just think they're bad cars. The "minimalist interior" is just a way to cheap out on features and they're not built that great. Hyundai or Rivian have some great EV offerings for same price or cheaper.
Hyundai might have some great EV offerings that are cheaper, but Rivian does not have anything even close in terms of price, unless you only consider Plaid models. You can get a used model 3 for $20k now, which is good value if you put aside politics & CEO.
Rivian and Tesla's trucks are pretty similarly priced, no?
Well yeah I'm not talking about comparing a used high mileage version of Tesla's cheapest sedan to a R1T
this is blantantly false. you cannot sell this many “bad” cars to start with. people can say whatever they want about elon politically or otherwise but the cars themselves are fucking awesome. and not only that, the supercharger network takes all the anxiety of owning ANY OTHER EV completely out of the equation. my wife has a non-Tesla EV and every longer trip basically is a project where she needs to prepare for where she will stop, what she will do if there are 11 cars waiting there (happened before)… I drive a 2014 Tesla S and the last thing on my mind (even with a battery which is now at like 90%) is where I will charge the car. would not take rivian if someone gave it to me for free and same with hyundai. even luxury-side EVs (Audi eTron, BMW i7…) can’t hold water to Tesla (and number of cars sold tells a simple story…)
I disagree with your opinion so its wrong!
millions and millions and millions of cars sold is not really an opinion :)
Right, and people must like whats popular! Preferences are false and they simply have yet to succumb to the wisdom of your position!
if something is bad you won’t be able to make an empire out of it and outsell your competition by a wide margin - you gotta use a little bit of your head here… millions of people won’t pluck down $50k because something is “popular”
elon is a fucking tool - the cars are fucking amazing.
This could be true of songs and movies. But cars are too expensive. And Teslas are bought not just by the rich but all across the economic spectrum. I can't relate to what you talk about here.
You cannot relate to describing someone’s subjective opinion as blatantly false?
Teslas may be bought across the spectrum, none of that is remotely relevant.
Tesla owners are often insufferable to listen to as they go on and on about their cars, like they make vegans seem a treat by comparison, that alone may dissuade people - I know it does for me.
with such a bias towards tesla owners it would be wise if you didn’t get yourself involved in these types of discussions. “tesla sucks because tesla owners are terrible…” :)
I gave a subjective reason for a preference, the difference is I didn’t pretend it was anything other than an opinion.
Hyundai does not have the track record Tesla does. The best part about Tesla is the buying experience. While Musk's personal conduct is less than desirable, doing business with a dealership affects me far more.
Every brand has been trending towards the designs Tesla put out 5-10 years prior. Their minimalist interiors are cute, cozy
The hate is for Musk. Tesla hate is just collateral damage.
People tolerated Musk's narcissism when he was largely apolitical and his entrepreneurship seemed to benefiting the world at large. Since 2020, Musk's brain seems to have been pretty severely infected by the woke/anti-woke mind-virus, and it's far less clear that his impact on the world is an unmitigated good thing.
IMHO: politics, and irritation at his personality and disruption. He has been the driver of some pretty amazing things, but that makes some people jealous or just bitter.
Isn't it basically the only logical conclusion at this point?
If you don't like Musk, you don't like Tesla.
If you like Musk, you believe what he says, and what he's been saying during his ascension to the White House is that EVs are trash. Aren't Teslas EVs?
That's too binary. You can dislike Musk without disliking Tesla, and vice versa.
I think it's rather pointless to avoid companies led by people with politics I dislike, because that is nearly all of them. Hell, I wouldn't have been able to see a movie or watch a TV show for years.
Of course, anything is possible, but your opinion then becomes fringe. I'm trying to answer to the parent's question, which was about general sentiment rather than fringe opinions.
When did Musk say that EVs are trash?
> When did Musk say that EVs are trash?
Politics is transitive. What Musk says is less relevant than what he does; what he's done is given anti-EV interests power. (In exchange for gaining his own.)
That's rather an expansive and imaginative interpretation of the facts at hand.
It's not just HN
I don't know if you've somehow avoided seeing him in the news buddying up with the Trump administration + the German nationalist party AfD (Alternative für Deutschland)
a self answering question if there's one
> Why's there so much hate for Tesla here on HN?
Musk has become a partisan brand. I'd guess HN tends classically liberal (whether left-liberal or libertarian). That and apolitical.