MNT Pocket Reform first impressions and hardware
andypiper.co.ukI got one of these recently as well, and have similar feelings. MNT's devices are not for everyone; you definitely need to be prepared for some tinkering, and some things are a little bit rough at first. But for a certain kind of person (and I count myself as one of those people) they're so much fun.
It definitely has been scratching my tiny laptop itch. I think the first laptop I ever used was my dad's Libretto 70ct back in the day, and I've loved mini laptops ever since. I think they hit on the right input method with that small trackball too, it's very smooth!
I also designed a custom back panel for mine, though unfortunately I missed a few details so I'm gonna have to get it re-made. But it's fun to have so many customization options! https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-h...
I remember coveting the librettos! And then the slim sony laptops. These days I dont think there’s anything better than a MacBook Air though.
What’s the use case for one of these? Data centers?
There's almost nothing in that Libretto size from the mainstream companies. But there are small companies making 8 and 10 inch laptops. GPD seems the most popular brand but there are several you can find on Amazon, Aliexpress, and Ebay.
And then there's the Steam Deck, and variants from Asus and Lenovo. But with those you have to supply your own KB + stand. I guess they wouldn't quite count.
Yeah, I had a GPD Micro PC prior to this, and I liked it... but the hinge snapped and replacing it seems like a pretty involved process. The build quality of the Pocket Reform feels much better, and it's a lot more straightforward to get inside and swap things out than with the GPD.
Travel is one use case. I loved the form factor of MBA 11 for ssh and local use of Mutt.
I've been keeping an eye on MNT Pocket as a substitute. Reviews look great.
The MBA 11 was nice because it fitted in an airplane tray really well.
There’s a thread about 11” Chromebooks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578
Might be a good option.
Thanks, I know, I posted that thread :)
I can imagine them being useful in a datacenter, yeah. So far for my own use it's been nice for writing at my nearby coffee shop, because it takes up less space on the table than a full-sized laptop and the small screen seems to help avoid distractions (so far, haven't had it for that long, etc).
And I don't travel long distances that often, but it probably fits better on train or airplane tray tables than a bigger laptop would too. I'm always worried the person in front of me will recline a bit when my laptop's in just the wrong spot and it'll shatter my screen from the top, haha.
that custom back panel is gorgeous! I would love to know more about how you got that made, as I now, um, need to do something similar...
you 100% did write about it, reading that now - where did you get it fabbed? tell me more :-)
I got it fabbed at JLCPCB, though later realized that the stock panel had counterbores on its mounting holes so the screws would be flush. JLC can't do that, so I'm going to see if I can DIY that with the drill press at my local hackerspace before I get the next run made.
I also accidentally got them made out of PCBs of the wrong thickness, and I forgot that the CPU module and wireless antennas would be in the top half so there's a full copper layer underneath that lettering which won't be great for wireless reception. Ah well, you live and learn :)
Nice, thanks for the added detail. I'm taking notes! Might see if I can do something similar.
I was inspired by this post on Crowd Supply for what it's worth! https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-reform/updates/on-ope...
Bit light on detail, but it got me a decent part of the way there.
Typing this from an MNT Reform with a CM4 chip in it. Don't have a Pocket Reform yet, but just want to chime in and say that I love what the MNT team is doing.
With the new rk3588 SOM it's possible to have 8 cores and 32 gigs of RAM can't recommend their devices enough. Have a second Reform with an LS1028A.
Deeply want them to continue to succeed. So refreshing to have a device that is fully transparent and upgrade-able over time.
Waiting for their new server rack mounted form factor to come out so I can put my old SOMs to use in my homelab.
Like with the MNT Reform (non-pocket), there are a few things that are aesthetically very pleasing (and fun, even), but in day-to-day use make it hard to adopt.
On the original Reform, I had some issues adapting to it's slightly non-standard (at least for US English) key layout... and on this one, it has a very visually-pleasing key layout, but I can imagine unless it's your only keyboard, it will take a bit of mind-melding to type well on it.
These MNT devices are—at least for now—not the type of things you'd consider to replace a Macbook or a slim laptop for portability and practicality/value.
I still want one, lol
The latest keyboard version 3.0 is more standard. The swapped control vs caps lock position is something one can probably remap in software. The apparent lack of page-up/down and home/end keys would be more of a problem for me, though.
The default firmware uses Hyper (the arrow pointing up and to the right) plus left/right for home/end and Hyper plus up/down for page up and page down. I'm not sure it's good enough either.
Input was my #1 issue with any tiny portables. Apart from getting a "good feeling" keyboard, losing the ability to properly touch type really rains on the parade of how you can run a "real" OS on the devices. The Pocket Reform does slightly better than some in that you can try to act like it's a normal keyboard experience if you have a solid surface and can ignore the tiny and non standard layout. The other half of the input story is of course mouse input. Touch controls are just a no go for using a "real" OS on a tiny screen, trackpoints style nubs are mid tier, and (surprisingly) I found ones which reuse the built in gamepad buttons and sticks (E.g. the Ally) are best. It probably has more to do with having the extra physical buttons to both control the mouse and modify the control behavior.
My #2 issue was always in realizing how disappointing it was to trade so much performance on top of the things still always being too large to comfortable fit in your actual pocket anyways. If you're already the type that enjoys carrying a portable game console with you then you might enjoy carrying one of the gaming focused mini portables since you can trade some minor clunkiness for more game library flexibility and raw power isn't a huge requirement to have a decent portable game library. If you're wanting to actually use it as a traditional computer... I just don't think I could ever see the device class being more than a novelty which ends up on a shelf after 7 uses for 95% of people that go and buy one.
It's cool this one is open hardware and focused on trying to provide a good open software experience but it does make all of the above even a bit rougher (can't help but recoil that every post about the Pocket Reform has a picture of the user at a text terminal).
FWIW I was all in on apple until I bought a brand new top of the line MBP in 2016, only to have it crap out on me a couple years later due to flexgate. Apple wanted me to pay something like $800 for a new screen due to their design flaws on a super small cable.
Clearly I'm biased, but the price for a new top of the line MNT laptop isn't bad comparatively at ~1,500 USD. Assuming you can wait a half a year to get one... On the keyboard comment, I have to say I find it quite easy to use. The only real difference is the split space bar, alt, and ctrl keys.
Would love to see a followup review on your channel whenever they get around to releasing the MNT Reform Next which should be much slimmer and faster. To your credit though, it's definitely for people who are willing to tinker. Simple things you'd expect to work like plugging in an external monitor don't work out of the box.
I haven't used a board that's not the default row staggered type, but from what I've heard when a keyboard is different shape, switching is actually easy. Like you probably have no problem using a touchpad and a mouse, but when using somebody's setup, the sensitivity is different or natural scrolling is enabled/disabled and it's just frustrating
Keyboard ergonomics vary a lot between individuals and you pretty much have to try until you know what can work for you.
Some people swear by ortholinear as the most ergonomic. I did give ortholinear a few serious attempts but it always ends in strain and pain. And I'm no stranger to exotic keyboards.
Otherwise I'd be all over the MNT Pocket Reform but alas. Column-staggered (crkbd-style) would be lovely.
Hey Jeff! Yes, I remember your review on the Reform as well. It is not a direct replacement for something like the MacBook (I'm using a MBP as I type this reply because I have a meeting in an hour and need the camera etc for Zoom...) - either in direct usability of the keyboard or the performance etc. It's a lovely machine though and I'm finding uses for it in commuting and other places.
Too small to be practical for me. I can feel my RSI kicking in right away with this form factor.
But I will say the MNT Reform stuff is pretty amazing all-around! I just can't anymore with most keyboards after a good 34 years keyboarding.
To the younger crowd out there - stretch... Play guitar or something. It helps!
It seems some people have it and some don't; I have been keyboarding now for 43 years almost every day and have never even had a twinge. It screwed my health (sitting for decades as computers are my work and also my hobby) for a bit, but never had anything with my hands, fingers, neck or etc. Not sure how it works. My parents did put me on a 10 finger typing course when I was 6; maybe that was it?
I typed for years on a GPD pocket 1 as primary work machine (I had to travel a lot) until my eyesight didn't work anymore on that tiny screen.
What problems did it cause for you and how did you fix it?
I heart my mnt reform. Give these people money if you can spare some in exchange for interesting open hardware for running linux on you'd like to see keep improving and being iterated on.
+1 from me for supporting innovators and folks doing good things for the right reasons. I'm in a privileged position to be able to have this as an "extra" machine, and I want these folks to sustain and succeed.
Talking about open hardware:
Is there a tablet out there which runs Debian or Ubuntu?
I don't mean it has to come with Linux in the first place. I can wipe Windows or whatever it comes with and install Debian myself.
When I google around, I see people use some tablets with Linux based on special kernels they download from somewhere around the web. I would not want that. But a standard Debian or Ubuntu on a tablet would be great.
I think the starlite 5 from https://starlabs.systems/ is what you are looking for.
Hmm... 1.98 pounds for a 12.5 inch tablet. I was hoping for something more lightweight.
The is new iPads are 1.3 pounds at 13 inch.
It's an x86 laptop without the keyboard (clip-on keyboard is an optional extra). On the plus side, that means it's just as easy to install a different OS as any laptop.
1.98lb = 0.89811289 Kilogram
But the new iPads aren't running Linux ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You asked, I gave you the only option I knew besides the pinetabs.
I have not seen any reports about plain Debian running on the PineTab. Only Mobian, which is not what I am looking for.
Isn't Mobian a debian with additionnal packages to have a mobile interface?
The mobian installation instructions are hosted on debian's wiki: https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/PINE64/PineTab2
Mobian is Debian with specific tweaks that arent upstreamed to Debian to support mobile.
That being said, neither the Pinetab/Pinetab2 are very well supported, I would not recommend.
That's really cool!
I have a GPD win mini that I'm really happy with. It's not really comparable to this device, except that they're both pocket-sized computers. But in just that one regard alone they're fairly unique, and it is very nice to be able to just grab a computer (that's more functional than a smartphone) and stick it in my pocket.
Apparently these things support OpenBSD to some extent. Which is nice, OpenBSD on ARM tends not to be all that great if you want everything to work for you.
What I'd like to know is, how'd he get his device so quickly? I have one on order; I checked the Crowd Supply site, and it says they're shipping it August 31. (Earlier, it said "July 31," but they bumped it.)
There was an initial crowdfunding period first which we have almost completely fulfilled now (working on the last shipment of 68 devices atm). The devices you are buying now are from Crowd Supply's stock which we will start fulfilling to them in around 2 weeks.
1200 euros for such a small laptop is too much though, that's the price range of frame work and other similar laptops. You can get a large sized laptop from hp or dell with better hardware for roughly half that price. 700 euros should be the max price for the size and specs.
The US price starts at $999, but you get hit with VAT when ordering from Europe. The VAT situation will be a bit different once we can offer these in our own (EU based) shop in a few weeks.
Keep in mind we're hand assembling these in Berlin, Germany, and the first batch size was below 1000 units.
I understand your perspective for costs, and the economics of a low batch like that are rough as well.
I hope you target larger batches and cheaper labor in the US (even to ship it back to EU) , or if you're paranoid about that, there are places that will help you with the assembly part in Mexico or plenty of other countries. I'm hoping a larger funding round on crowdsupply might help you target larger batches (and gauge interest).
The problem with the current price point is, I might get it for myself out of curiosity but I can't really recommend it to others unless they show strong interest in small and portable laptops.
This is not a mass market device for everyone. That is good. I hope it stays the same.
I think it is a fair price and for such low volumes I'm not sure how they are keeping costs so reasonable.
Sure, but these are not made in some asian sweatshop and you can replace everything yourself.
I can replace everything with frame work (it is designed to be long term maintainable and replaceable), and I wouldn't dare discriminate on the people who are earning a living assembling laptops on the basis of the continent they reside in.
I know hardware developed in asia that is not from sweatshops. It is more expensive though. It is fact that most mass produced hardware comes from mass assembly line low wage staff in asia under questionable circumstances. How is that discrimination?
The frame work is more expensive than what the person I responded to said, but it is an example of how it should be. It wont be cheaper though.
framework is expensive but for hardware specs it isn't crazy expensive, it's in the macbook range. I can't think of any other laptop that comes close to mnt's price range for the specs/size.
I don't really understand what your problem with low wage staff is, I suspect we have a different understand of this. In my view, even having employment at all is a big deal in those regions and matters of local labor law should be dealt with by the local population. Ingesting cash into their country's economy is usually a good thing unless there are ethical concerns like slavery or forced labor which isn't the case here. Western labor laws were dismal at some point as well, child labor was rampant even in the US not even a hundred years ago, I hope other countries make progress at their own pace.
That's another way of looking at it, but because we used to do it (we killed people over religion, involuntary lobotomies etc), doesn't mean we should support or condone it in other places. It's a difficult problem and I don't mean to take the food out of the mouths of people; the point is however that THIS particular MNT laptop is more expensive because you cannot really live in Germany painstakingly assembling one device at a time vs mass production in low wage regions. So this was more a remark on 'why is this so expensive?'.
Also, if people would buy repairable stuff it can become the norm; I guess govs are starting to demand it; either the prices go up or they find a way to make it happen ; both are good ; people need to learn to repair stuff instead of 'just get a new one, it costs nothing anyway'.
Yeah, if you compare with the prices set by large manufacturers you are right, of course. But note the company behind this machine is like a two persons shop. They lack the economy of scale. And from a large hardware manufacturer you do not get "open source" hardware for which circuit diagrams are available to you for all major parts. If you do not care about that then this thing is not for you.
The price of anything is how much people are willing to pay for it. if consumers were willing to pay more, the big manufacturers will also charge more.
Miniatures cost extra, just so you know. Bulky stuffs are cheaper.
Agreed. And for even cheaper you can get an Android tablet (or even an iPad) and an external keyboard, if you think trading openness for their app ecosystems is a benefit.