Pentagon ran secret anti-vax campaign to undermine China during pandemic
reuters.com> payback for Beijing’s efforts to blame Washington for the pandemic
Maybe it is wrong but I did not read much about China blaming US for pandemic outside couple of articles claiming that on US media (including this one) while a lot American media, politicians and ordinary people used to blame China for pandemic since the beginning. I think this is just trying to justify this campaign as a reaction mechanism by the author while he admitted that it had put lives in risk and probably was indirectly cause of death for some. And the rest of article is good.
I think this is just trying to justify this campaign as a reaction mechanism by the author
Consider who was President at the time.
I would imagine China has little reason to claim in english that it's the US bioweapon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation_by_Chi...
Well, it's more like: they tweeted links to published claims that it was a US bioweapon from a think-tank based in Montreal (Global Research Canada), in direct response to outright claims by US politicians & government officials that it was a Chinese bioweapon. You can read a detailed timeline in this report from the Atlantic Council:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/W...
The citations on wikipedia don't seem to be about tweets. Although you may be correct about the tit-for-tat nature; two wrongs do not make a right. China's government intentional stoked conspiracy stories and this nearly-whataboutism doesn't actually help anybody figure out what's going on.
ex. https://web.archive.org/web/20210220164052/https://qz.com/
> Hua Chunying, a spokesperson for China’s foreign ministry, said on Monday (Jan. 18) at a press conference that the US should open Fort Detrick, a military medical research base in Maryland, for further investigation as a possible origin of Covid-19
> ...
> Hua made the remark in response to a question on China’s reaction to a statement last week from the outgoing US state secretary Mike Pompeo, who said the US government has “reasons to believe” some staffers at China’s state-owned Wuhan Institute of Virology developed symptoms that were consistent with “both Covid-19 and common seasonal illnesses” in autumn 2019
Pompeo's comments: https://2017-2021.state.gov/ensuring-a-transparent-thorough-...
You're talking about "whataboutism" in a thread about the Pentagon and General Dynamics intentionally spreading misinformation about Chinese vaccines across Asia, including that they contained pork. If that's not "whataboutism" then "whataboutism" is a meaningless, disgusting term forced on Americans in the 50's to explain why the US shouldn't answer for apartheid, but socialism was the worst danger the world had ever seen.
Not the first time either. The US covert use of fake vaccination drives to gather intel to assassinate Bin Laden caused the public to become distrustful of vaccinations and led to the resurgence of Polio in that region.
Can you provide a source that the vaccines were fake? My understanding is that it was a real vaccine drive also gathering intel. But please share your sources.
Not that the vaccines themselves were fake (though the full multi-step doses were never actually administered, source included below). But the drive was fake, and the taking of blood samples at the time advertised to check for diseases was also fake in that the blood was never checked for diseases at all.
Source for never completing the multiple steps of the vaccine doses: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci...
Source for blood sample procurement under false pretenses: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-14117438
I think gp intends "fake" to modify "vaccine drives", not "vaccine".
The vaccines were purported to be real hepatitis B vaccines, as the aid workers involved in the operation had previously successfully gained entry to the Bin Laden compound in order to vaccinate his children against polio. However, the aid workers did not complete the multiple doses necessary to complete the sequences of the hep B vaccine, so the vaccination program ruse could arguably be characterized as "fake" as it did not follow proper vaccination protocols, regardless of whether or not the vaccines used in the farce were themselves legitimate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Osama_bin_Laden
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci...
> The doctor went to Abbottabad in March, saying he had procured funds to give free vaccinations for hepatitis B. Bypassing the management of the Abbottabad health services, he paid generous sums to low-ranking local government health workers, who took part in the operation without knowing about the connection to Bin Laden. Health visitors in the area were among the few people who had gained access to the Bin Laden compound in the past, administering polio drops to some of the children.
> Afridi had posters for the vaccination programme put up around Abbottabad, featuring a vaccine made by Amson, a medicine manufacturer based on the outskirts of Islamabad.
> In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived.
> It is not known exactly how the doctor hoped to get DNA from the vaccinations, although nurses could have been trained to withdraw some blood in the needle after administrating the drug.
> "The whole thing was totally irregular," said one Pakistani official. "Bilal Town is a well-to-do area. Why would you choose that place to give free vaccines? And what is the official surgeon of Khyber doing working in Abbottabad?"
> A nurse known as Bakhto, whose full name is Mukhtar Bibi, managed to gain entry to the Bin Laden compound to administer the vaccines. According to several sources, the doctor, who waited outside, told her to take in a handbag that was fitted with an electronic device. It is not clear what the device was, or whether she left it behind. It is also not known whether the CIA managed to obtain any Bin Laden DNA, although one source suggested the operation did not succeed.
For what it's worth, the CIA has committed to not use vaccination programs or workers or DNA obtained through such programs in operations going forward.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-obama-cia/white-house-vow...
> For what it's worth, the CIA has committed to not use vaccination programs or workers or DNA obtained through such programs in operations going forward.
That was also the policy before they did it.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
Shame and fucked up, although everyone is doing it. The Canadian government is currently having a big kerfuffle about foreign influence (1) and seems like the USA conveniently blames all domestic political strife on such interference. The obvious ethics of this aside, it's a good reminder that anything geopolitical is an active propaganda war these days. I notice it less on HN but honestly can't even read Reddit anymore there days because of this re: other current events.
1 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/foreign-interference-trudea...
Reddit employed NATO employees at high level position. Almost all of the main subreddits are active propaganda channels. I am constantly bewildered at the amount of Zelensky/NATO photos on innocuous subreddits like damnthatsinteresting or pics.
https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/wdrirf/reddit_is...
It's outright depressing even casually scrolling through reddit these days with blatant ads and propaganda smothering you.
Depends on the subreddit though.
In a long list of awful things that US intelligence agencies have done, this has got to be near the top.
Also, what happened subsequently is a textbook example of what Chalmers Johnson described in "Blowback".
This is nowhere near the top. If I had to hazard a guess, the rabid propaganda and pushing of the ukraine war is near the top.
You don't need propaganda to tell people invading another country is wrong.
No but you need propaganda to push NATO borders on Russia, arm a coup, start a civil unrest, fund a war, destroy a peace treaty (Turkey 2022) and then drip feed arms to destroy two countries at same time.
Even in a thread about sick US propaganda, the apologists find an excuse for war.
I'm not a fan of either side. I really really don't like how America is overlooking the literal Nazis in Ukraine they are funding while pretending that various legitimate political positions on US social policies are equivalent to "Nazism".
But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine. "Pushing NATO borders on Russia"? Why does that justify invading Ukraine? If every country next to Russia joined NATO, that still wouldn't justify it.
> But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine.
Russian intervention was triggered by Kyiv botching the Minsk agreements and terminating ceasefire. That's the prime reason, since Russia is legally bound to provide military aid to Donetsk by the abovementioned agreement. Western propaganda is hard on erasing the side that never supported the coup in Kyiv.
Everything else are just additional grievances, i.e. assuming that the current Ukrainian government is crazy and non-sovereign enough to allow deployment of missiles previously forbidden by the recently dissolved INF treaty.
>If every country next to Russia joined NATO, that still wouldn't justify it.
The US was going to start WW3 over Cuba becoming an ally of the USSR.
I always found this part confusing bc the US had placed missiles in Turkey beforehand
However the crux of the issue wasn't that there were missiles but that the missiles were placed secretly.
There is a nice podcast series about it
https://www.historyextra.com/podcast-series/cuban-missile-cr...
Which "literal Nazis" are you referring to?
There's only one group which this could possibly refer to -- the Azov Brigade. You can say anything you want to about them -- but they definitely are not "literal Nazis", and that's their entire point.
Assuming you literally mean the literal sense of "literal" here.
I am referring to Azov, you're delusional if you think the brigade with literal Nazi symbols as their main insignia is not literal Nazis. They are powerful fighters, but any state with a semblance of wanting Western and US assistance should have disbanded the group, changed its name, changed its symbols, and put in place rules to stop them from constantly having Nazi insignia in their uniforms.
Propaganda is a huge part of war, and this: https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...
Is terrible propaganda, and it can be easily stopped. That's the most generous way of looking at it. The worst way, is that we'll have another "Fund the Taliban against Russia and see what happens" pt. 2 when the war is over and Azov beats all other parties to rule the area afterwards
Look at that guy's historical comments. All his comments are pro war in Israel and Ukraine. He is the glowie the newspaper is talking about. All of his comments are bone chilling.
I don't dismiss people's words based on the history of the person. The worst person can have sensible logic in some cases and vice versa
The problem is that the GP is just lying, straight up.
All his comments are pro war in Israel and Ukraine.
This is 100 percent false, and in fact the complete reverse of my position in regard to the Palestine conflict.
The statement "pro war in Ukraine" is nonsense also. This is a defensive war from the Ukrainian perspective, obviously and unambiguously so. Supporting their right to defend themselves is not a "pro war" position, and it is intellectually dishonest to suggest that it is.
The brigade with literal Nazi symbols as their main insignia.
It's not a "literal Nazi" symbol. Importantly, it has a reverse orientation, and different proportion of its segments when compared with the Wolfsangel symbol. When you hold the two up together -- the difference is quite noticeable.
And even more importantly -- it just doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Azov maintains it wasn't derived from the Wolfsangel symbol, and is adamant that it is not intended as a symbol of Nazi affiliation or of support for Nazi ideology. In fact they say it derives from the abbreviation "National Idea", which means yes, they are self-described nationalists -- but not with any Nazi affiliation of the sort that you're trying to scare us with.
From Wikipedia:
You don't have to like Azov or their beliefs. But the simple fact is, they do not use Nazi insignia, and when asked, their leaders uniformly state that they explicitly reject Nazism and antisemitism, and that they have Jewish members (and in fact a lot of native Russian speakers).Andreas Umland, a scholar from the Stockholm Center for Eastern European Studies, told Deutsche Welle that though it had far-right connotations, the Wolfsangel was not considered a fascist symbol by the population in Ukraine.[114] In 2022 political scientist Ivan Gomza wrote in Krytyka that the symbolism of the regiment had become associated with a "successful fighting unit that protects Ukraine", and wrote that other connotations are lost on most people in Ukraine.They've even jumped on the pro-Israel bandwagon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vMAo_zOgBA
If you keep digging you can also find a precious video of Azov commanders line dancing with orthodox rabbis on one of their visits.
You're delusional if you ...
The irony here that on this particular subject at least -- the one who's been played and propagandized is you.
That's why the usual actors who keep repeating the "Azov == Nazi" narrative based on trigger symbols, marginal sample data and other misleading information keep on doing so. Precisely because they know that it doesn't have to align with the facts -- and either way it will push your buttons, and spike your cortisol levels to exactly the range where they need them to be.
Why do you do all this twisting and turning to try to excuse these symbols "Ah it's a reverse orientation, ah it's just a nationalist symbol with far-right connotations, it's not Nazi!"
Why not just change the symbols because your biggest supporters and allies have issues with it and the history behind it (you know very well the history of Ukrainian collaboration with Germany in WWII and where these symbols come from. Sure it's complicated but that's where it comes from). If NATO can't show pictures of soldiers due to the insignia, if journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove certain patches before interviewing them, why do they wear them at all?
Just because they stand next to Jews doesn't mean they aren't the kinds of people who love far-right Nazi symbols and what they mean. Said Qutb moved to the US and spent lots of time around Americans before starting an anti-Western ideological group.
But all this could be eliminated if the insistence of Azov on their tarnished names and symbols were removed. Why do they cling to them so much? Why are they so resistant to such a sensible request? These are the things that make people hesitant to support them, and they are extremely aware of it. This is the reason the US had a ban on arming Azov for years till very recently. They know what it looks like and they fight to keep it that way. That should raise some concern for anyone.
The one doing the twisting and turning on this subject is you.
The simple fact is -- you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked. Own it, and move on.
> you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked
So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because they wear Nazi insignia? It's not true that journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove their Nazi insignia when being photographed?
In fact all are true. Here are the sources:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-...
An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#m...
https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols...
Don't close your eyes to facts and truth. The world is complex. Try to find the truth in that complexity
So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII?
As in every country under the Nazi occupation. Including Russia, by the way -- and in significantly larger numbers than in Ukraine.
But this was 80 years ago and is a completely different topic. Do you actually think this provides some kind of chain of implication as to anything happening on the ground today? Or are you just trying evoke an image of Ukrainians as basically congenital Nazis, and that's the your big subliminal message here?
It's not true that that is where these symbols come from?
In fact it's not true. The Azov insignia is not derived from the Wolfsangel, or any of the symbols used by the Galicia Division or any other collaborationist units.
An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top
Seriously -- what's the logic here? What is this supposed to prove?
Check in any American Nazi rally from the 1930s to the present; the photos are all over the place -- and (get ready to start trembling now) you'll invariably find prominent displays of swastika banners right along side the Stars and Stripes. Does that make it a Nazi flag?
You're deliberately misinterpreting what I said and ignoring half of my argument and it's plainly obvious. The newspaper is not the only proof. It's just to show that Ukrainian collaboration with the Nazis was very widespread and understood. Hell, even the Canadian parliament accidentally honored a Nazi Ukrainian War veteran and the speaker had to resign over it.
To complete the analogy, if an American military unit used the same symbols the Nazis used while collaborating with the Nazis during WWII and then a modern-day American military unit proudly used those same symbols while constantly being told by all their allies, NATO, various allies journalists, etc. that these symbols cannot be shown to the public, they should absolutely be disbanded and never allowed to use such symbols again.
Why doesn't that happen in Ukraine? It's such a an obvious thing to do, you never ever answer this question, just always pick on minor things and make up strange interpretations of minor parts of what I'm saying
Didn't mean to ignore your half of your preceding post; just that takes time to unpack and respond to these points, and honestly, it seems a lot of your arguments just aren't well-constructed.
But leaving that aside, and to address just the first line, if I may, of your post above:
I'm quite familiar with Ukraine's collaborationist history in WW II. Of course callaboration was widespread, and the occupation forces had substantial support (or at least acquiescence) throughout the population -- again, as in all occupied countries. There's a reason they were able to pull of the multi-year Babyn Yar operation just outside the center of Kyiv, were able to recruit so many Trawniki to do the dirty in their camps, and so on. This isn't a revelation to me at all.
My question to you is -- how does any of this history move the needle (serve as "proof" in your words) -- or have any other kind of bearing, for that matter -- in regard to any of the assertions you're making about Azov today? As I asked in my most recent response (and you "ignored"): what is the actual chain of implication and substantiation here?
I'm just not seeing any. If you can enlighten me as to why I should, perhaps we can continue with the other points. But in any case that's all I have time for right now.
Because it actually takes a lot of time to answer you carefully and patiently like this, you know.
And about that guy they put in front of the Canadian parliament (even though he has absolutely nothing to do with Azov, and hence nothing one might say about him can have any bearing on the original assertions you were making) -- just to get him out of the way:
If you think that anyone who fought or otherwise worked for the Germans -- even if they served in the camps and did horrific things there (which this guy did not apparently), or served in a nominally elite military unit (as he did) -- is ipso facto a Nazi -- then it seems you haven't taken stock of one of the cardinal rules by which the Nazis operated in these countries (or any long-lived dictatorship operates for that matter, including certainly Putin's).
Which is: they don't need you to join the Party, or even believe the ideological flim-flam (and in the Nazis' case -- they definitely didn't need you to be antisemitic). You can even be a bit skeptical, or outright disdainful under the hood. At the end of the day, they don't really care about what your think as an individual. And they don't need you to be hip to their Master Plan.
They just need you to go along with it.
"Check in on", "alongside"
That sounds a bit like Russian propaganda you know. Like Russia sending the tanks to kill Ukrainians and take their land is all the fault of the horrible people pushing peace and democracy.
How else something contradicting western propaganda is supposed to sound like?
> all the fault of the horrible people pushing peace and democracy
Please don't push this "nothing was happening in Donbas before 22". It's ignorant at best and just cruel at worst.
Using the peaceful reunification agreement as a way to stall and to prepare for war against dissidents has nothing to do with "pushing peace and democracy".
This reads legitimately as Russian propaganda. Is this satire?
This got innocent people killed. In a just world, those responsible would be in prison, but instead they just got another $0.5bn contract.
That’s pretty straight up evil
Real story IMO is at least further confirmation that Facebook, despite "expressing anger" are wholly subsumed by the national security state and allowed, or was not able to put a stop to this campaign until NSC chose to stopped the disinformation campaign because it aligned with new admins interest. Meta not only let obviously inorganic US propaganda to continue, but gave pentagon heads up that the campaign was too obvious, implying they can coordinate to enhance US disinformation dissemination, if subject/purpose wasn't something FB culture found distasteful. Not that it matters, since article suggest DoD can just ram through disinfo campaign on FB and presumably other western platforms with relative impunity.
The government tells FB what to do. It's called jawboning and they've been doing it pretty blatantly
> The U.S. military is prohibited from targeting Americans with propaganda, and Reuters found no evidence the Pentagon’s influence operation did so.
The US military should be banned from using propaganda in any form. We're not in a war. There's no justifiable reason to spend US tax payer dollars to actively lie to the rest of the world.
What a shameful and tawdry use of our institutions.
To be clear, I’m not advocating for it. I’m just explaining:
One of the core functions of the intelligence community, is to manage perceptions globally for the five eyes partners, led by the United States and the 16 intelligence agencies that comprise the intelligence community
It might be easier to think about it as the marketing budget that is spent on non-obvious influence
Reading Edward Bernays’s and his 1920 propaganda book will tell you everything you need to know about how we go about that process
In function, though it’s not the military determining those things, typically it’s Congress and other civilian oversight boards all the way up to the president dictating what those info operations are who they Target and determining impacts, etc., and risks
The story of the Moonies - anti-communist Korean cult - running the Washington Times. And the story of Falun Gong - anti-communist Chinese cult - running The Epoch Times. Are two great examples of US clandestine operations now propagandizing the US population.
Not that I agree with the vaccine stuff, but the US are in something of a information war with the Russians and Chinese.
Yes, but it is important to remember that the information that contradicts 'Russian propaganda' is 'American propaganda' and there is no particular reason to prefer one over another.
> Facebook executives had first approached the Pentagon in the summer of 2020, warning the military that Facebook workers had easily identified the military’s phony accounts, according to three former U.S. officials and another person familiar with the matter. The government, Facebook argued, was violating Facebook’s policies by operating the bogus accounts and by spreading COVID misinformation.
> The military argued that many of its fake accounts were being used for counterterrorism and asked Facebook not to take down the content
There you have it. Counter-terorrism is our new "please think of the children" to halt logical thought and make you the bad guy if you continue pressing any further on serious matters.
It wasn't just against China, they were campaigning against all non-western vaccines. Either you get Phizer/Astra-Zenka, or that evil Chinese/Russian/whatever liquid will make your eyes bleed out.
It's not even a "secret", you can just read "Radio Free Europe": the messaging was absolutely obvious.
> The U.S. military is prohibited from targeting Americans with propaganda, and Reuters found no evidence the Pentagon’s influence operation did so.
This is a moronic caveat. They were posting on instagram, facebook, and twitter. I have it on good word that Americans read those. I suppose that they'll be able to post any sort of lie as long as they say they were targeting Turkmenistan or Bolivia.
Setting aside the ethics of propaganda being targeted at any group and the loathsomeness of this particular campaign, they were pretending to be foreign nationals and posting in foreign languages. It’s unlikely many Americans ever read any of it.
"And in February, the contractor that worked on the anti-vax campaign – General Dynamics IT – won a $493 million contract. Its mission: to continue providing clandestine influence services for the military."
So basically this campaign was just one of many?!
What makes this infuriating is the "most moral country in the world" did this for economic damage to another country's commercial market. So much for free markets. In the US, we still think the China vaccines are not as effective. This led to Saudi Arabia requiring everyone who came for pilgrimages to use US made vaccines. The problem was US made vaccines were not readily available in all places. It was double trouble for them.
I am so angry right now.
Per the article, the China vaccines are not as effective:
> Although the Chinese vaccines were found to be less effective than the American-led shots by Pfizer and Moderna, all were approved by the World Health Organization.
Is this a false statement?
We will have to wait for another leak to verify that.
So part of what you’re angry about is not based on known facts. If the leak never comes, will you retract your comment?
At this point, a US department was intentionally spreading false information to hurt the economic success of an adversary. Any effect this has on the decision-making of foreign govts is going to be directly attributed to this mission.
Unless can be proven otherwise. But how can that be proven?
To my knowledge, organizations like the WHO and countries like Brazil reported weaker effectiveness of the Chinese jabs compared to the likes of Pfizer. I’m not familiar with even China claiming otherwise these past few years. Are you saying the CCP fell for the anti-CCP propaganda?
Only three-four years lifetime for a conspiracy theory?!
They don't make them like they used to...
Oh - not sure it's over yet! Check back in 20 years.
I mean Andrew Wakefield was struck of for fraud in 1988 and still his stuff about vaccines causing autism lives on
The misinformation is coming from inside the house!
That's because the people rejected the Disinformation Governance Board. Imagine if this board was active. None of these would have happened and we would have had a happy peaceful life with our benevolent government watching us over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_Governance_Boar...
The campaign specifically targeted Sinovac. US military assets may have been used, but I'll bet Pfizer and Moderna had a hand in this, seeing how embedded they are in the media and parts of the USG.