Early Bitcoin Investor Roger Ver Charged with Tax Fraud
justice.govI'll never forget "Bitcoin Jesus" making this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1YsMlrfF0
Legendary piece of bitcoin history btw I've lost all my bitcoin twitce in my 10 years involved, but its so much fun to fuck the system
Not very surprising. He had already been arrested, back in 2002, for selling illegal stuff on eBay. He was somewhat of an attacker of Bitcoin, promoting his "bcash" fork.
For reference, that "illegal stuff" were just fireworks (too powerful, I guess) [0]. Those "attacks" are fully explained in his recent book "Hijacking Bitcoin: The Hidden History of BTC" [1]. He didn't fork Bitcoin, he just proposed its name: Bitcoin Cash [2], which is not "bcash" [2][3].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver [1] https://www.hijackingbitcoin.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_Cash [3] https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/why-some-people-call-bit...
Roger has consistently been promoting the same ideals from the beginning.
BCH was also never "his" fork, it was just the fork he started to support.
"bash" is a slur to attack the BCH fork, same as the character assassination that Roger has been subjected to.
Finally, he sold firecrackers on eBay.
> Around that time, Ver allegedly took possession of those bitcoins and in November 2017 sold tens of thousands of them on cryptocurrency exchanges for approximately $240 million in cash.
> Even though Ver was not then a U.S. citizen, he was still legally required to report to the IRS and pay tax on certain distributions such as dividends from MemoryDealers and Agilestar, which were U.S. corporations.
> In total, Ver is alleged to have caused a loss to the IRS of at least $48 million.
Lesson: You can’t run away from Uncle Sam even after signing away your citizenship.
I'm not a tax expert so wondering, shouldn't the potential loss be computed off the non payment of exit tax at date of exit or 2014 levels? (which would have computed to much lower than 48mm)
The article says it's mainly 2 things: under-reporting on the exit tax, but also not reporting the dividend more recently (2017) when he transferred the coins to himself from the companies.
Very interesting that he got arrested in Spain for tax fraud, just like John McAfee.
Things look quite bad for him, he went all in on Bitcoin Cash, and even used leverage. He defaulted on CoinFLEX and owes them $47M in USDC. Roger Ver went from owning 131,000 Bitcoins in 2014 (worth almost 8 billion USD as of today) to pretty much broke.
How can you possibly know he is broke
More and more countries are implementing an "exit tax" when wealthy people try to give up their citizenship. Also, the US authorities make it increasingly hard to do so. I wouldn't recommend anyone to become a US citizen. Once you are in, it is very costly to get out again.
As a Dutch citizen, I can leave the Netherlands to live elsewhere and no longer have to file Dutch taxes.
US citizens have an IRS filing requirement even when living abroad.
What other countries behave like the US in this regard?
Even Germany which is an EU member has an exit tax when moving to another EU country. This is theoretically against the EU's principle of free movement of capital. According to EU law, any restrictions on the movement of capital or payments—either within the EU or between EU and non-EU countries—are generally prohibited. However, somehow Germany gets away with it.
It's not only Germany but also Austria and France (until 2004?). The Germany Wegzugsbesteuerung is meant to prevent cases where Germans leave the country for more than seven (or twelve upon request) years, e.g. to Switzerland, sell their Germany company stock and profit from paying a much lower tax or none like in Switzerland. Steuerflucht, tax evasion is prevented with this and there are certainly many who'd other move abroad, sell without taxation and move back again. There a plenty of exceptions though with countries Germany has a Doppelbesteuerungsabkommen (double taxation treaty) with to prevent cases where the individual would have to pay taxes in both countries.
Personally I never heard of this tax before, despite being a German living in Austria, but then: The tax targets wealthy individuals with company holdings trying to evade taxation. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegzugsbesteuerung
It is a bit different though, because the German exit tax applies to companies and people holding more than a 1% share in a company. So no exit tax if you hold bitcoins as part of your private assets...
Agreed that there is some tension with EU principles, but it is difficult to get it right. Building a company in country A for 20 years, then moving to country B for 184 days to sell it completely without paying taxes also does not seem like a fair system.
This applied to a friend of mine who held copyright on music. Apparently this is non transferable in Germany and it was worth quite a lot. He had to pay a significant amount to move to another EU country.
Eritrea, an African dictatorship. But they charge a measly 2% and people don’t bother paying if they have no plans of visiting Eritrea again.
Sweden has an exit tax rule where they will continue to tax any capital gains worldwide for 10 years after non-residency.
If you have a permanent residence permit in Japan you need to file their taxes annually even when living abroad.
In Finland you have to live abroad for 3-4 years until you are not taxed anymore.
The permanent resident permit concerns immigration, not the tax office.
The tax office cares if you have a domicile ("living base") in Japan or possess a residence there for over a year.
Not a tax professional.
If you're born in the Netherlands and retire to South Korea, will the Netherlands continue to pay you a base income and provide healthcare?
Does US do that?
How about healthcare? I was under the impression that it isn't provided even if you live in US.
Pensions for elderly works within borders of EU.
You can for example move from Netherlands to Poland for retirement and get Dutch pension while living very comfortably in Poland.
Social services in the US include Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. (Note the capital letters. Those are the names of the agencies.) And yes, they all cover citizens living in and outside the United States.
The US government makes employers (corporations) pay a large amount of money into the private health insurance system (Required by law per employee. That sounds socialized, doesn't it?). They do that to reduce the tax burden on the poor, and to maintain healthy competition in the insurance market, for better or for worse.
In my opinion, that means doctors make more money because insurance companies put the burden of paying them on big corporations that can afford to do so.
Essentially, it means the poor get healthcare, the rich pay for it, and small business owners can expense it as a reduction in tax liability.
What do you suppose you'd do if you were an employer (a corporation) with global media reach who didn't want the government to force you to pay for your workers' health care?
Well, I think you'd invest a lot into propaganda teaching people that rich corporations shouldn't pay it, the government (aka poor taxpayers) should pay for it.
And that's why so many people are under the same impression that you have (or had).
This is not accurate. If you move out of the Netherlands as a Dutch citizen you definitely still have to file your IRS for at least a couple of years (until "computer says no"). Even with no assets or income from Netherlands.
Source: I did it.
And of course if you have assets in The Netherlands of any kind you'll have to keep filing IRS as long as you have anything going on there.
US is likely the only jurisdiction that can actually enforce it. Other countries can't just call US government to send them back if they suspect they owe some tax.
>Other countries can't just call US government to send them
Tax fraud is fraud. The US definitely extradites for fraud.
* Gaston Bastiaens
* Stein Bagger
* John Kirk
Maybe, but you maybe want to travel. Even going back. Too bad if it would end up in 5 years jail time for some tax evasion or similar
Would it be really silly to just get rid of US citizenship as soon as possible?
You can live and work in US without citizenship, right?
Which citizenship would be good to get instead of US?
Why not just maintain dual citizenship instead of needlessly renouncing?
Because US citizens have an IRS filing requirement even when living abroad. It is a very uncommon requirement among countries.
Some foreign banks simply don't _want_ to deal with American citizens, precisely because of the reporting requirements strong-armed in agreements with the US -- because they have to report those bank accounts back to the states every year (or quarter).
It's not like the US is funding that foreign work to be done on their behalf, either. So the reticence to even bother with creating bank accounts for American citizens makes sense.
Some countries don’t allow dual citizenships like the Netherlands and others allow it like Belgium.
Many billionaires who move to USA, UK, Canada and Australia are corrupt/oligarchs/tax Dodgers. They are ok even to loose 50% of their wealth to get protection
Interesting title by justice.gov. Tax evasion is illegal regardless of your background / investment portfolio, so why relevant? Sowing sentiment?
It’s a normal thing for the DOJ. They write press releases like articles, so you’ll see titles like “Popular businessman,” “Tech Company Founder charged with fraud,” “Social Media Influencer charged with…” etc.
> Sowing sentiment?
Yes. Trials are adversarial- persuasion often matters as much or more than facts in formal legal writing. Blog posts presenting reason for prosecuting someone even moreso... Public perception, politics, etc etc etc.
> Ver was arrested this weekend in Spain based on the U.S. criminal charges.
John McAfee was also arrested in Spain in 2021 for tax evasion taxes, and was found dead in prison.
- anything to declare?
- yeah, don't go to Spain
(c) Snatch
Isn't there some kind of statue of limitations in us tax law? That's stuff from 11 years ago.
Not for fraudulent returns
@MemoryDealers but not active here apart from a 2012 comment https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=MemoryDealers
I remember getting the cisco compatible switch optics from Memory dealers. Heaps cheaper than Cisco- $5 an optic compared to $1000.
Apparently one way memory dealers products were sometimes cheaper was due being counterfeit:
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-4th-circuit/1627804.htm...
Look, if you owe lots of tax its because you made lots of money. Pay the tax, be happy.
I just don't get why some people are so obsessed with not paying tax.
You don't have to pay tax when you didn't earn money so stop being so stingy.
I know lots of people who go to extraordinary lengths to reduce the amount of tax they will pay even if it means they end up with less money in their pocket. It's crazy. Needing to pay tax seem to make some people go nuts.
I know one person who would rather make half the salary because it means less is paid in tax. I just roll my eyes.
Just pay it. It pays for defence, education, health, government services and a bajillion other things.
Get a grip, tax obsessives.
Theres a huge difference between legally optimizing your tax burden and committing tax fraud. If you want to give more money than is legally required to the federal government so they can light it on fire I guess that’s your prerogative…
You are correct.
As Kerry Packer said, anyone who doesn't minimize their tax is a mug.
Avoiding tax is illegal, minimising tax is common sense.
What I am talking about is people who would rather less money in their own pocket if it means paying less tax. Makes no sense at all.
I hate taxes because US tax code is pretty slanted against income earners. It just doesn't feel great to take home proportionally less and less as you work harder. We don't treat corporations or capital holders the same way, and that makes me bitter.
100% agree. Taking a paycheck is the worst way to make money in America. That said, it makes me even more sympathetic to the post you replied to. Basically no one working a 9-5 is making enough to owe the IRS $48 million, including this guy. If you make $240 million, pay your damn tax and be happy.
I never said you should love taxes.
I'm talking about people who are unreasonably obsessed with paying tax.
Not paying taxes is the single best thing anyone can do. You can get an average market return and you will still move up, relatively, because most people pay taxes. Often it's the difference between having to work or not.
Old money doesn't pay taxes through international arrangements. It's only for the working and lower middle class. Gifts from foreign people, companies and trusts are completely tax free in America for example. It's not talked about unlike bullshit minimum taxes on new money because same people controlling the media use it.
Income tax is primarily designed to keep elites in power and to prevent social mobility, they don't have to do anything special, not paying taxes over decades is an incredible advantage. If you start poor the only realistic option is to risk evasion until you make enough to start not paying legally, and the limitations period on tax evasion runs out.
It's challenging when dealing with millions of dollars. $5 million is a substantial amount, and a 37% capital gains tax would reduce it to approximately $3 million. Essentially, you would lose $2 million to taxes.
$5m is life changing.
Having said that it is stupid to commit tax fraud and live a life of perpetual fear.
>> you would lose $2 million to taxes
This is where people lose perspective. You're not "losing" anything. If $2million is owing on $5million then the $2million was never yours to "lose to tax". The $2million was always owned by the government (assuming it is calculated correctly).
The mindset that tax is losing money or being taken from you is I think at the heart of why some people go tax crazy.
It's easier to deal with if you don't ever see it as your money, cause its not your money.
You made $3million and part of the cost of making $3million is $2million tax.
Focus on the $3million. The $2million in a real way does not exist to you.
> You don't have to pay tax when you didn't earn money so stop being so stingy.
But you have to pay a fixed VAT for what you buy, even if that is food or clothing to survive. Remember, you pay twice.
Like many things in life this makes sense when you understand that a large number of people fundamentally believe the world is a zero-sum game. They can only feel like they've won it someone else loses.
I don't owe you anything.
Fun fact: Ver's twitter account https://twitter.com/rogerkver/ has the "Government agent" grey checkmark.
Fun fact: Gregory Maxwell (aka nullc) has been on the forefront of the character assassination of Roger, and he can't let this opportunity to take a stab go to waste.
For some insight into the mind of nullc, see his abusive Wikipedia behavior[0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Adminis...
Hello lawn, nice to meet you.
Since apparently some lame edit war on Wikipedia I got into 18 years ago that lasted all of about a day and was shortly forgotten by all is of such apparent interest, perhaps you'd be interested in sharing exactly what you were up to 18 years ago?
In any case, I fail to see how pointing out the he is a government representative-- according to twitter-- is in any way a character assassination.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely, never has this been more obvious to see than when nation states gain excessive power over others.