Half of Ireland's young people have low level of mental wellbeing
independent.ieIreland should be an international study about how a state destroyed itself by running a gigantic welfare state despite all of world's money pouring into it
Almost €300B national debt. Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work. It's the only relatively wealthy European country with unlimited dole. And people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever.
This is despite huge corporation tax receipts and income tax receipts by largely foreign born workforce
One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.. it's just a waste from bottom to top and all are complicit
How has the state destroyed itself? Most of the debt is from the bank bailouts during the 2008 financial crisis (debt quadrupled between 2007 and 2013)
> Government is giving free houses, money to people who don't work [...] and people make a lifestyle out of living on welfare forever
This is just the usual blah blah moaning about welfare states in general. What do you mean by "unlimited dole"?
Unlimited weekly money of €250 for people who don't work. This isn't a small amount. Specially on top of free housing by schemes like HAP. That can give as much as €2000/month in rent
End result is a destroyed housing market and young people who rather get trapped into welfare
There are housing crises in cities all over Europe and the US
there is no welfare trap.
Free houses sounds very unlimited to me.
Your framing is all wrong and certain points are incorrect too.
Clearly it's not a waste when at a GDP per capita level the country is in the top 5 in the world (and certainly the one with the largest population). Even if you want to strip out the tax aspect, the country has managed to improve living standards and now it ranks above average in living standards and earnings in Europe.
Debt means nothing when the population have the earning capacity to pay it off (people don't give loans they don't expect you can pay back). This is clearly being invested well and in productive capital.
It is definitely not unlimited dole. The social housing component ensures sufficient social mobility, so you actually can improve your own position in life. The country also has the most progressive tax system in Europe i.e. people pay their fare share (relatively speaking to other countries).
I will make a point on an assumption you infer, and no you are wrong, trickle down economics does not work. And secondly, there is value in investing in your residents.
Yes I'm as strong a critic as you'll find but GP's points are some fox news nonsense. The money was siphoned out and given mostly to corporations and homeowners.
Property construction has effectively halted, health services are catastrophically underfunded (search UHL crowding), public transport is less effective than horses and there's a collapse in recruiting for teachers and police because they can make 2-3x in Australia so they do.
As a result of lack of policing, anti-social behaviour is in full swing.
I agree with you on your point on siphoned off funds.
Property development hasn't ground to halt but is insufficient for the ever increasing demand, developers are focusing on improved margins over volumes. A symptoms of their market first approach more than anything else.
Definitely need more investment in housing, public transport and healthcare, some ambition there would be very useful.
More policing won't do anything for social issues, solve the underlying issues, social disengagement, lack of opportunities, nip any new toxic laissez-faire/not my problem culture in the bud.
Why don’t people deserve free housing? We need it to fucking live, it’s essential
Someone has to pay for the housing. It isn't free, the expense just gets shifted to someone else.
Ok, and?
I don’t like my high tax bill just as much as the next person, but of all the things the money gets spent on, social housing isn’t something I’m particularly upset about.
I was just being pedantic and slightly Puritan. I apologize if I misunderstood your position.
What are you talking about ?
The only failings I see with the Irish model is they don’t go far enough in some areas.
I’d like to see the healthcare system expanded for example.
Per captia they are extremely wealthy. Have free education including third level. No student debt. Are extremely educated. Very low crime (including a tiny murder rate). Very low homelessness (although pressure has increased on the system in the last few years because of refugees from Ukraine and asylum seekers - but I’m happy they are helping people and I think most Irish people are too).
They frequently rank highest on happiness measures and the fact that they worry about how young people feel about their future and are willing to make policy changes to accommodate them is a sign of strength not weakness.
Also caring for the less fortunate is a huge positive not a negative.
> They frequently rank highest on happiness measures
If half of young people have low levels of mental wellbeing, perhaps the composite average indicator is not so useful.
Or perhaps it is just as useful because it tells you where you need to and can improve.
Any sources for Ireland's government giving free houses?
By law all new developments are required to have 20% social housing. And google search will show you the extent of corruption and free money that goes hand in hand
source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/law-change-to-make-...
Also city councils run a large stock of social housing where tenants pay nothing and live for generations
Literally in the headline of the source you linked states 20% are affordable or social housing, not all social housing.
And a ten second google about what "social housing" means as I'm not Irish and don't know, tells me that social housing is not, in fact, free and is instead adjusted rent based on your ability to pay. I suppose it's not impossible that some of it is free, since some people may not be able to pay anything, but this is some incredible goal post shifting from:
> Government is giving free houses
To:
> By law all new developments are required to have 20% social housing
Which then after going to your linked source became:
> Law change to make 20% of units in new developments affordable or social homes
So 1 in 5 newly developed homes has to be affordable or social housing, which is rented, not gifted as property to the unfortunate resident. The horror.
You're of course entitled to disagree with these measures and programs, but if you have to go so far as to be within shouting distance of outright lying, it kind of implies you don't have a good position that can be backed by the actual facts on the ground as opposed to your ideological predispositions.
Have you heard of HAP? Please read up on it. It's budget and impact on the everyday person. It's a roundabout way to giving free housing to people who don't work by taking money from people who do.
End result is a broken and inflated marketplace
Sure. But speaking as an American, our housing market is plenty inflated and absolutely ridiculous, and we do everything just about short of shooting the homeless on sight here. So giving people places to live I don't think is the direct correlation to an inflated market that you think it is.
And like, to be totally honest and pinko commie scum of me, I am completely fine with being slightly less well off if it means people in my area get taken care of. That doesn't bother me.
I totally agree on principle but for those who are stuck in a transactional mindset (conservative/libertarian etc) I would argue that paying for housing and welfare for poor people is just good business sense. Crime is incredibly expensive and when pushed to the edge people disconnected from society are more likely to both need to perform crime to survive but also have nothing to lose from performing criminal acts. If you take care of people's basic needs with a safety net you actually enable them to contribute to society (economically and culturally) and it is a couple of order of magnitudes cheaper than criminalizing them. And guess what, people still desire to earn more money, so they still have plenty of drive to better themselves, they just aren't completely fucked if they fall on hard times.
Oh yeah, this has been understood logic for like... ever. I felt this way even back when I self-identified as a libertarian. Now as a lefty I feel similarly.
But people in the states especially and even in parts of Europe are so hard up on this notion that the criminals are just criminals from birth, barely even human, just waiting for some way to exploit larger society or worse, them personally, somehow to "steal" their way to "the easy life" and it's just so detached from reality. Are there people who are just remorseless psychopaths ready to harm anyone at a moments notice for their own gain? Yeah, sure are, most of them end up being cops. The rest are people who are given few if any options to get by, and if crime is your only option to getting a meal, of course you're going to commit a fucking crime. It's like these people expect the homeless to just lie down and await death instead of stealing food.
Requiring a percentage of social housing with new developments is quite common in many EU countries, though.
Ok, so not really free housing.
Being a welfare state is not the problem, that's the duty of the government, and should be an example for many countries
However, it's a tax heaven within Europe, therefore companies are not incentivized to create jobs, that's the problem
When you have nothing to do and nothing in your life to aspire to, you become sad
Ireland has almost the lowest unemployment rate in Europe, and a pretty high job vacancy rate.
> However, it's a tax heaven within Europe, therefore companies are not incentivized to create jobs, that's the problem
Eh? The tax haven aspect has created about 300,000 jobs, if you only count IDA client companies (and not companies who benefit from spending by those companies and their employees). Ireland had high unemployment from before independence to the 90s; since the tax haven (or, as an old Taoiseach insisted on calling it, "small open economy") thing got going, unemployment has plummeted.
I mean let’s be honest adults here - a 300B national debt is literally nothing. Not even worth discussing in a post or even acting like it’s a problem. Ireland ran a 4 billion euro deficit last year; again this is meaningless. You can dislike these policies you mentioned(on whatever basis…) but let’s not act like Ireland is burning here or something
What are you talking about? Ireland's population is mere 5M. That's €60K debt for each soul. And over €200K debt for a family. What does Ireland has to show for all this debt?
So about half of the debt per capita of the US?
Per capita is a dumb indicator for this, though. USA has GDP in tens of trillions. Ireland has 47 times less than that.
I agree but it's the dumb indicator OP decided to use.
Others have pointed out that this amount is comfortable enough relative to GDP, but I also want to point of your method of arguing is dishonest. There will never be a day where the entire debt of a country is divided up among the citizens and then they each would have to pay that amount, so saying it’s 60k debt per each soul is kind of like a football fan saying that each Kansas City Chiefs fan each won .00001% of a Super Bowl Trophy last year. It’s sovereign debt.
Emigrants.
Huh?
> Almost €300B national debt
Well, 223bn, but what's 77bn between friends? About 40% GDP. This puts it fairly low as far as developed countries go (Germany's 66%, UK 97%, US 130%, Japan 264%).
> Governing is giving free houses
I mean, not notably.
> money to people who don't work
Ireland has functional full employment (about 4% unemployment rate). Social welfare isn't particularly lavish by Western European standards.
> One in five people are directly or indirectly employed by the government of a tiny country.
That's reasonably low by western European standards.
Ireland has lots of problems, but _not spending enough money_ isn't one of them. We're not a particularly high-tax country by Western European standards, and we're running a surplus. If anything we should probably be spending more, to sort out the housing crisis if nothing else.
Yeah GDP is cooked and is largely inflated by the foreign corporations. What does Ireland have to show for that €223B debt? All of that money was thrown into the welfare pit.
What does Ireland has to show for such a large government employees. Health service is in tatters, so is housing. Come on. Put down the rose tinted glasses.
The debt was built up majority bailing out the banks from the 2008 housing crisis to the cost of $85B. If it was spent on welfare, it was on corporate welfare.
As for health,the health outcomes are 6 years more life per person for $7.1k/person/yr compared to the US which costs $12.5kpp/yr.
> All of that money was thrown into the welfare pit.
Largely bailing out the banks, actually. Debt fell to practically nothing prior to the financial crisis, then leapt up, and has been kinda flat ever since. So, I mean, arguably welfare for the rich? We were arguably over-generous with the banks.
> What does Ireland has to show for such a large government employees. Health service is in tatters, so is housing.
Again, that is because we _don't actually spend very much on it_, to a large extent. As I said, I think we should be spending more, particularly on building housing.
I'm a bit confused; what sort of changes do you want to see? Cuts to the dole? That wouldn't make any significant difference to the state's finances. Cuts to pensions (the bulk of social welfare)? I mean, good luck with that; no politician is going to run on a policy of annoying old people.
Please visit https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/
Welfare dependency in Ireland is of another level. 4% figure is cooked by engaging people into government skill programs
So, the biggest items under social protection:
* Pension (10.69bn) - Can't touch this
* Illness, disability, and carers (5.6bn) - This is also largely old people; a lot of it should arguably come out of the health budget
* Working age income supports (4.11bn) - This is programmes for low-income working people.
Way down the bottom: "Working age employment supports", at 655mn. That's the dole. It is comparatively nothing.
Again, what specific changes do you think should be made? How would they be beneficial?
Isn’t the debt then also cooked because the majority was from a government provided bailout program for the banks?
“A largely foreign born workforce” what right wing talking points claptrap is this?
About 12% of the population are non-citizen, 20% were born outside the state. Unemployment is 4%. How they're getting "largely foreign born workforce" from this, I don't know. It is numerically impossible.
That's no different than saying most/all corporations are foreign owned. Why is that a right wing claptrap? Irish right wingers are the dumbest people on the planet. Living off the foreign population in one of the largest welfare state
But, I mean, it's not _true_, unless you're defining 'largely' as something under 50%.
We also don't talk enough about the mental impact of living in one of the worst weather on the planet. Every other day is rainy, dark and foggy.
I’ll never forget the sense of wellbeing I felt after my first “sun holiday” further south, it was revelatory.
I live somewhere with similar weather and I don't feel like the weather is getting me down... Until there's a sunny day and I'm 10x more productive and happy.
The strawberries are good down there too.
You don't have to move very far to see a meaningful difference either. The difference in weather between the north of Ireland and the south of England is staggering. The proper summers there largely make up for the miserable winters. No so in Ireland sadly. It sounds mad but the wonderful English weather is one of the main things that would stop me moving back to Ireland.
I would love to live in that climate but that's not where the high-paying tech jobs and somewhat-affordable housing are. Instead I have to be in a climate where it's a blistering 105F for 3 straight months (arguably equally as depressing).
You have no idea what lack of sunlight does to a person. Cloudy and dreary every day is far more depressing than sunshine all the time. Try it.
It’s cliche, but the green makes a big difference if you’re near it.
I’m from Boston visiting Ireland for the first time. We’re spending our time in the west, from the Dingle peninsula up to Sligo. Right now we’re in Connemara.
That’s a neat coincidence, but it doesn’t give me any insight on this problem. What I can say from the article is that it sounds just like articles in the US decrying Gen Z’s “failure to launch”.
It’s a real problem, but it doesn’t seem unique to Ireland. I guess people in UK and continental Europe all struggle with the same problems.
Half of Ireland's young people have had their entire future stolen from them before their very eyes.
I am curious. Please give us more information on what you are referring to and your specific point of view.
(originally https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/15/world/europe/ireland-hous...)
Allow me to further point out that 'just live with your parents' requires that your parents be close to your job. However the lion's share of jobs (worth having) are in Dublin. Therefore if you're not from Dublin you don't get the free parents rent, you pay the same $3k that you would rather pay as a mortgage or save as as downpayment, and are then outcompeted by those who were able to avail of the benefit.
Therefore what we're seeing is a total destruction of wealth for anyone outside of Dublin.
Nevermind the oft maligned truth that your ability to pay €X in monthly rent is insufficent evidence of your ability to pay €0.8X in a mortgage thanks to the new rules brought in after the previous generation a) got their houses and b) ruined everything with bailout debt.
Article is paywalled but seems to just be a hyperbolic headline in the style of US papers talking about foreign countries.
The social contract has not been completely ruptured. I checked last week.
There is no longer a path to having a family. Whatever you want to call that then.
Are they walling up vaginas? Because that’s the path to having a family.
If you're not going to be charitable and try to adress what the comment you're replying to is actually talking about, why talk at all?
The article title is just a hyperbolic statement about something. Blocking the path to a family is just another hyperbolic statement that is patently untrue.
But in all seriousness in response to your question, why respond at all, the answer I would argue is it is super important to respond. If you don't respond you leave exaggerated statements unchallenged and then people just ingest them without using any critical thinking. There are tons of examples of it happening in the US news media and it does change people's perspectives of what is happening in the world. If left unchallenged a casual reader would just assume that the sky was falling down in Ireland which couldnt' be further from the truth.
Not to be unkind, but that is a very high-minded justification for what was essentially a one-line joke comment.
Comedy in the service of a strong argument is twice as funny.
Tell me then, funny man: what's two times zero?
You asked me why I insisted on responding, I told you why I responded. To not allow exaggerated nonsense to just exist unchallenged.
I used humor in my response. My use of a joke highlighted the absurdity and overblown nature of the original commenters statement and made a reader think exactly what does someone mean by "path to having a family". In actual fact, other people on this page are claiming it's too easy to have a family in Ireland what with all the free housing and welfare. So I'm pointing out the absurdity of the position, especially when it's just blasted out as fact without anything to back it up.
In the article, there's no comparison to other countries though. Is it any different than the rest of the developed world?
People do it anyway, but you can't practically make those kinds of comparisons and unearth much of value.
The characterization of mental wellbeing is cultural, not universal, and the methodology of collecting assessments is also sensitive to culture.
But it doesn't really matter because it wouldn't tell you much besides "ah, only Ireland has this problem I guess" or "whelp, this has been rising eveywhere" -- neither of which are especially practical conclusions when it comes to actually doing something about it.
Ireland is in a very bad spot right now. They are in a deep recession, over a year of gdp contraction. Later this month we find out last quarter's gdp reduction and if it's -0.6% or worse, Ireland moves from recession to depression. Which I will be shocked to see if they achieve anything better.
Ireland's housing crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/15/world/europe/ireland-hous...
Overall Ireland is in a bad spot and young folks with low work experience are the ones who will hurt the most.
Shrinking GDP, yes, likely to move from technical to actual recession, sure, but "in a deep recession" is factually incorrect [1]:
"Ireland officially fell into recession last year as multinational exports slumped in the face of weaker global demand but the domestic economy still managed to grow, aided by stronger-than-expected consumer spending. Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures published on Friday show the economy as a whole shrank by 3.2 per cent in GDP (gross domestic product) terms in 2023. The CSO noted that the more globalised sectors of the economy, including the multinational-dominated “Industry” sector, contracted for the first time since 2013. This was “driven largely by a fall of 4.8 per cent in exports,” the agency said. The figures show the economy was effectively in a technical recession for the entirety of 2023 with GDP contracting in all four quarters. The domestic economy as measured by modified domestic demand (MDD), a more reliable barometer of domestic activity, grew by 0.5 per cent on the back of a 3.1 per cent increase in consumer spending. Consumer spending was underpinned by strong employment growth with figures published last week showing a record 2.71 million people are now employed in the economy. Incomes also rose in real terms by 3.3 per cent, the CSO said. Worryingly, however, MDD contracted by 0.4 per cent in the final quarter of last year on the back of a fall-off in private-sector investment. Another quarterly contraction would turn Ireland’s technical recession into a real one."
[1] - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/03/01/recession-con...
GDP when it comes to Ireland is not the best measure, yes it was down in 2023 due to lower returns from pharmaceutical and contract manufacturing multinationals.
Modified Domestic Demand, a better measure of the internal economy was up 0.5%, much better but will still be felt relative to the crazy highs Ireland reached the past few years.
The new OECD tax agreement means GDP and tax will remain under pressure (tax surplus forecasts are being revised downwards).
+1
The Irish Central Bank doesn't use GDP anymore because our tax haven status distorts it so much.
Was this comment generated by AI?
Looks human to me and to https://gptzero.me/. What made you think it was AI?
The repetition in the last sentence and use of "Overall". The structure of the first paragraph too.
I appreciate this may not have been the case (sorry OP), which is why I asked the above question.
Having left Ireland over two years ago I can say that the quality of life is simply awful there compared to many other European locations.
I love my country and I was paid exceptionally but at every turn there is an extra overhead or increase in price accomodation is simply disgusting in Dublin, the weather is laughed about being a factor but when you're stuck indoors 80% of the year it has a big effect on your mental health over time.
Add to that the real growing problem of petty and violent crime in the city. While not out of control right now, it's unmanageable by the current Garda police force.
I hope it can figure things out, but as I see, Facebook conspiracy theorists and cookoos are starting to have political positions and it doesn't look like it will end well.
> Add to that the real growing problem of petty and violent crime in the city.
No kidding, I couldn't get my head around the recentish riots at all - child killed; immigrant comes to others' aid; everyone starts rioting; supposedly anti-immigrant, but involves mainly attacking police and burning public infrastructure...
Not that I'd support that kind of political action anyway, but at least make some kind of sense, do correctly targeted rioting?
> No kidding, I couldn't get my head around the recentish riots at all - child killed; immigrant comes to others' aid; everyone starts rioting; supposedly anti-immigrant, but involves mainly attacking police and burning public infrastructure...
Great example, that was a really embarrassing moment for me to see.
The riots were just a reason for the scum to act out and do whatever they wanted, under the guise of something reasonable. Gaslighting on a physical scale.
Really good example of how the country overall has changed for the worse.
Oh well. Maybe they can complain to their govt about how they need more stuff and money.
The picture - seriously?
Do these publications have a rule that every article needs a photo, even if it’s irrelevant? I don’t actually want to see a stock (or AI) photo that adds nothing to the journalism.
Brought to you by Gemini. When cultural accuracy won't fly: Gemini