Roblox executive says children making money on the platform is 'a gift'
theverge.comI am surprised that Congress has not really found out about Roblox and dragged the execs into a hearing. If they only knew what went on with that platform. There are so many dark patterns that directly target children.
Of course it would be all grandstanding and nothing will be fixed, but I am really surprised they are missing out on "owning" one of the more shady tech companies.
My 8 year old son was not psyched when I told him “no Roblox”…
…instead I dragged out a bunch of old Xbox 360/One games and let him enjoy a world free of microtransactios, casino inspired skill trees and loot boxes, and weird sex predators.
At first he resisted, then he fell in love with Portal and Command and Conquer and forgot about Roblox.
I feel bad for kids now that are just getting sucked into these engagement hacked “games”. No fun.
When I get kids they will be playing Half Life and early Need for Speeds.
And mine will be studying ancient Hebrew, Greek and Latin and reading the Torah, Homer and Virgil. Anyone allowing children near electroludograms designed to be addictive before they're familiar with actual classic cultural artifacts is simply irresponsible. Of course, I am not so ignorant as to forget the Orient. I have already arranged for my second child to be shipped to China at birth to provide government financial incentives to a local couple. I've told them I'll take her back when she's caught up on the last 3000 years or so of Eastern human capital.
It's this kind of backseat parenting entitlement that makes me never want to have kids. It feels likes it's a free pass for strangers to tell you anything they feel akin to extremist religious fanaticism.
It's great you want to culture your kids. But many bright young individuals grew up without any of that.
There's also a ton of studies that show video games help with problem solving cognition, so I'd be curious your thoughts on that.
Did you perhaps miss an element of irony? I know parents who have sent their kids to Latin charter schools, I know parents who send their kids to learn Hebrew. But I haven't so far met any who sent a child to China to help someone qualify for a government bonus.
You can bypass that by just getting them into Warhammer 40k. :-)
I mean, isn't the solution exactly the one you did?
I keep reading all these problems regarding gaming, but what people forget to include is that all these problems are about *multiplayers gaming*.
There is a whole giant universe of single player games out there that's beautiful and free from dark patterns. And a small universe of couch coop games.
I'm also surprised at the lack of copyright enforcement on the platform. The number Disney related games is surprising given their reputation for protecting their IP.
It's a strange sort of gift where the giver profits by it.
Roblox arguing that it's not exploitative is a reasonable thing (I don't agree, but it's not a ridiculous argument). Arguing that it's a "gift" when they're taking a 75% cut is just offensive.
I would've been stoked as a kid to be able to create games and also make money off of it though. Instead I had to spend time on useless education so I could do as an adult what I could've already done as a kid if someone showed me it was possible to make money with coding.
So many years wasted in school not paying attention because no interest in given subjects at the time. But since they didn't pay me, it wasn't technically "exploitation".
Every game programmer needs a strong math background. Every good game designer cribs extensively from history and literature. Having a sense of art is important even if you aren't an artist.
There's very little in school that isn't directly applicable. Like, not even just "it's good to be a well-rounded human", but you can literally directly apply almost everything you learn to your craft.
Sadly, I'm in agreement with the GP. I started programming freshmen year of high school on my own because my school did not offer courses. I also wrote my own fiction book and self-published it sophomore year. Whenever I showed my homemade video games and physical book to my teachers I received a "good job" and that's it. I did not receive any help, special instruction, or extra credit. Most of the courses, outside of literature and math, were not applicable whatsoever. My takeaway is that our compulsory education system is not optimized for the self-directed student.
There is a lot of room for debate on this... self direction is fine, as long as it's not coupled with arrogance. If you think you know everything the world tends to teach you lessons you'd rather not have.
World history isn’t applicable to game development? No help at all from biology, physics, chemistry? Don’t even bother with psychology?
> Every game programmer needs a strong math background.
I disagree even though math was my favourite subject in the school. I think I truly only enjoyed math and physics. They were the only subjects I felt like I could actually problem solve and not have to memorise facts I can't relate to or do not know what to do with. But really the maths taught at school also seemed like not really related to creativity, but more like memorise this formula => rote practice with this formula, on and on from there. While if it was about game dev, or programming, it would've been more about learning to problem solve in a bit more creative ways.
> Every good game designer cribs extensively from history and literature.
This highly depends on the game, the designer and multitude of different factors. I despised history when I was in school, but now that I've got older I've grown natural interest towards it which has allowed me to learn it with magnitudes higher effectiveness compared to when I was a child. Without my own life, and trying my own things, I didn't have interest in history, because I hadn't lived, so I didn't have anything to relate it to. I was clueless about people's motivations in history. It was just a compilation of random facts that I was forced to learn. Understanding people, their motivations, goals is the most important part of history, and without understanding those aspects, I just don't understand how I could be interested in history enough to not think of it as random facts.
> I disagree even though math was my favourite subject in the school. I think I truly only enjoyed math and physics. They were the only subjects I felt like I could actually problem solve and not have to memorise facts I can't relate to or do not know what to do with.
Why do you disagree though? Math is helpful in game design for: pathfinding, vector math, several graphics effects, physics, smoothing animations, setting up in game currencies, setting up probabilistic gameplay elements, random number generation, terrain generation, calculating enemy field of views, calculating trajectories, creating player controllers, and many other logic pieces in games.
If you want to be a good game designer, it would behoove you to have a strong math background.
I disagree with the part where "You need a strong math background". And also usual school doesn't give you that "strong math background".
What you need is motivation, passion and creativity to achieve a certain goal. It's not a prerequisite to have a strong math background to be able to create a game.
All of these things can be Googled - and even easier nowadays ChatGPT can help you out with learning those things without this type of background required.
Especially as a kid.
I wish I had something like Roblox as a kid. What I used to do was I drew on papers like a story game where different decisions led you to different next set of papers, because I didn't have a computer and/or no one taught me actual coding.
I see. It’s not a prerequisite, I 100% agree. But by building a game you will most likely, maybe even unintentionally, develop a strong math background :D
The grandparent comment was talking about how all the different subjects in school can help give you very useful prerequisite knowledge that enables you to become a strong game developer. You made it sounds as if the math isn’t necessary, but I think we both agree knowing math will aid you tremendously in game development. You don’t need to know it to start developing games, but somebody that already has that knowledge will be leagues ahead of you in a lot of topics.
Heck, even the simplest data structure in almost every game engine a Transform (aka transformation matrix) is a loaded mathematical term. The guy that understands linear algebra and how you can combine a series of matrices to apply different kinds of transformations to a geometric object will “get it” way quicker than somebody who has no math knowledge. Then, when they want to do fancier stuff, like transform something relative to something else (like a custom 3rd person camera that hovers above and behind the main character), they don’t have to waste time trying to understand how linear algebra and using matrix multiplication can achieve that effect.
> But really the maths taught at school also seemed like not really related to creativity, but more like memorise this formula => rote practice with this formula, on and on from there. While if it was about game dev, or programming, it would've been more about learning to problem solve in a bit more creative ways.
When did you go to school? I think we do a lot better nowadays. As much as people dislike e.g. Common Core, this complaint—a focus on rote algorithms instead of the concepts behind them—was a major reason for the changes.
It's probably a geographical thing as well, but I'm between age of 30-40, and not from US, I don't want to share the exact details of course.
It is unclear to me whether it is better nowadays, but times are changing quickly, it is hard to even predict future, or future jobs presently, so I think I honestly would be more stressed now if I hadn't set my life, career up, as I was able to do when I was younger.
I just remember school strictly as torture, and my real life beginning when I was able to do actual work and career, that developed my confidence because I was able to achieve real world success at something I naturally enjoy doing.
No point in dwelling on the past, but since we are having this topic, I still would like to question about all the wasted years in the youth.
I think when I started out, it probably was much easier to get coding jobs without any experience, compared to now, so if I was in present time, it would have been much more difficult for me, because ultimately due to all the difficulties I had a very non standard route of getting where I am.
Sure; but no kid is going to believe you; or even if they do; they won't care. It needs to be something they can put into action immediately and see results.
I was stoked as a kid making games in "Unlimited Adventures" and exchanging them for free online. I did this in addition to spending time on my useless education (which eventually turned out to be useful to me), not instead of it.
I can't tell if you are joking.
It seems like you are implying the reason we do stuff is to make money, or at least the main motivating factor for you, or you believe it is for most people.
I started working in a factory when I was about 13 casually, and by 14 I was putting in enough hours for my technical apprenticeship.
During those years I did get paid, and I was thankful for it, but I definitely wasn't doing it for the money, and I was still going to school and then to college in parallel.
I'm sure things are different these days. It just makes me sad to think personal progress is somehow conflated with earning money.
With regard to the article. I think given what we know about social networks and young minds, it's already been shown to be a toxic mix. Getting kids on the capitalistic treadmill so young seems extremely cynical and it really does concern me.
> It seems like you are implying the reason we do stuff is to make money, or at least the main motivating factor for you, or you believe it is for most people.
Being able to make money, especially as a kid would've been ultimate compliment or appreciation to me. Anyone can say kind words, "good job", but if I make money, somehow what I do is actually valuable to other people. Obviously, especially amazing if it is something that I am passionate about, and skilled at. I don't believe this about most people, neither do I disbelieve it, I'm just talking from how I would've felt as a kid. And certainly many of my friends. It would've highly developed my self-confidence.
> With regard to the article. I think given what we know about social networks and young minds, it's already been shown to be a toxic mix. Getting kids on the capitalistic treadmill so young seems extremely cynical and it really does concern me.
I think there are actually much worse things to worry about. If you want to worry about child exploitation, then indeed worry about factory workers who are forced into those conditions, making shoes, but not about kids who are able to use their creativity to provide value because they love doing that.
How does school factor into this? I don't think anyone has suggested we replace school with Roblox.
Because I think school is forcing kids to learn something they are not interested in, doesn't make sense to them, while killing their creativity, while also not getting paid for it, having no idea why they have to do it, while Roblox is promoting their creativity, teaching them to problem solve and at the same time paying for it. So my point is that, if Roblox is bad, then School must be the worst thing in the Universe.
I can see where you're coming from, but I've got some follow-up questions:
What percentage of kids do you think make Roblox mods?
What percentage of those modders do it for money?
Does Roblox provide childcare, lunch, physical education, face-to-face interaction, enforced time structures and social hierarchies, and/or extracurricular activities?
I honestly do not believe they're remotely comparable. They serve such drastically different purposes it feels like comparing baseball to banking. We might be able to call one better, but I believe which one will vary wildly between kids.
I remember school as a constant source of anxiety and depression. Something like Roblox where my creativity was rewarded would've been amazing for my self confidence.
I haven't actually tried playing Roblox or researching it, so I don't know about the percentages, but I'm mainly speaking about the idea of using creativity, to create fun games you enjoy creating and the end results being:
a) other people are playing what you created
b) you get paid (even if in small amounts) for what you created
Would have been amazing for my otherwise low self esteem childhood.
Right, and I'm not doubting the value of creative pursuits like Roblox. I made and distributed calculator games during math class. What I'm doubting is that they can function as a useful alternative to school for most kids. (This is what you're suggesting, right?) I can see it as supplementing school for some, but not as a replacement.
I'm not suggesting it should replace schools. I am responding to what the article tries to imply.
I don't know or have thought enough about what the perfect way to educate kids would be.
I just don't appreciate an article jumping on a company that to me seems to reward creativity, because of some odd understanding of moral truths like Corp = Evil and Children receiving money = Evil.
Which in many cases IT really could be like child factory workers in cases where they are forced to do that due to economical circumstances, having no other options.
But I don't know about the company enough. Maybe they are truly evil. Maybe this article is just wrong about the delivery, but Roblox is evil.
Murder also isn't exploitation.
Think of all the unpaid labor that people perform on behalf of social networks though.
Sure, they get value out of it (I guess?) but the platform makes money off of it, and the creator does not.
Roblox could work that way too, and if kids today are anything like kids when I was one, there would still be a ton of content created regardless of compensation.
I think it's good that Roblox pays out. They don't have to.
But I'd never be stupid enough to call it a "gift" in the presence of a reporter. Where was the PR minder??
> "So I can be like, 15 years old, in Indonesia, living in a slum, and then now with just a laptop, I can create something, make money, and then sustain my life"
Not if you can't get past the 50-step impossible Arkose captchas they show to third-world countries, ones that require you to actually be a robot to get past them with 0 mistakes.
They're also intentionally blocking Linux support, which is growing fast in the global south due to the growing hardware demands of Windows. They allowed Linux for a while, but now they want people to run their new kernel-level anticheat
I think they did fix Linux support intentionally for Linux users iirc
It worked for some years and was as easy as downloading something from Flathub, then near March they announced they will be blocking it again[0]. The only options now are to do hacky Android emulation with Waydroid to run the Android client, or Windows VM with GPU passthrough, neither of which are reasonable options for most people
They did for a while, but recently officially broke it again.
Better link, the one linked by the verge:
https://www.eurogamer.net/roblox-studio-boss-children-making...
If Roblox did not give any money to creators, would that make it okay?
Ideological consistency is difficult.
There seems to be a widespread sentiment in pretty much all western culture to see money as dirty. I wonder if it somehow comes from old Christian laws against credit. It took me a bit to shake that irrational sentiment. Money is choice and freedom and no dirtier than objects one might gift it exchange.
Money is not dirty, but money corrupts everything it touches [1]. Doesn't matter if that's healthcare, internet, art or computer games, having money as a part of equation twists incentives and changes the overall picture into a darker one. It is (obviously) necessary for survival, and so it's not bad per se, but there's nothing wrong with longing for money-less interaction.
[1] To be fair, my belief in this may also come from the Christian background of Europe.
I believe the issue is that children are involved. If Roblox re-oriented itself to become an education platform where children can explore and learn different things virtually... that would be a win/win. e.g., Roblox could say, if you create a mini game that fulfills this lesson plan about chocolate [1], then your minigame can be published in the Educational section of the platform. Parents could then let their children participate in the Educational games only. I would for one would gladly donate/pay for such a service.
BTW the lesson plan for chocolate asks students to design a new chocolate bar. Choose the ingredients and design a wrapper. The students/players can then vote on their favorite design etc.
[1] https://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/teaching-resources/teachi...
Imagine if Roblox didn't give money to the kids. Would that be better? I don't really see how.
For children in the developed world their Roblox earnings are likely non-essential. If they don't want to work on Roblox mods, or whatever they do, then they just won't. Forcing your child to work on Roblox would be straightforward abuse same as any other kind of abuse.
For children in the developing world - perhaps there are some for whom Roblox development is mandatory. But, would that child be better off if we deprived them of Roblox? Wouldn't they just work somewhere else in worse conditions in a career with less of a future?
I don't see why kids earning money from Roblox is bad. The efforts to criticize it strike me as pattern matching. Child labor = children working in coal mines or as chimney sweeps = bad. Kids making Roblox games for fun is child labor therefore kids making Roblox games is bad. Doesn't strike me as a compelling argument.
> Imagine if Roblox didn't give money to the kids. Would that be better?
Yes.
> The efforts to criticize it strike me as pattern matching. Child labor = children working in coal mines or as chimney sweeps = bad. Kids making Roblox games for fun is child labor therefore kids making Roblox games is bad.
Only if it really is something the child is doing for fun. In many cases, I don't believe it is. Please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gXlauRB1EQ. I apologize for linking a relatively lengthy video, but this one really shaped how I feel about Roblox.
This is in fact the same basis for why we ban children working as chimney sweeps. I'm sure many children do have fun sweeping chimneys on occasion—I can certainly remember a time when I thought it was fun to wash windows—but add payment to the mix and it generally devolves into something else.
I don't want to defend child labour too much, I don't know much about the topic.
But is it really so clear that a child not working is somehow a better outcome than a child not being hungry and being able to provide shelter for themselves?
I'm in the same boat as you on not knowing much about child labour.
That being said, if a child is doing labour for a company (in this case Roblox, but the same could be said for Instagram, Tiktok, etc.), why is it considered more ethical to NOT pay that child for their work?
I know an argument could be made that adding financial incentives encourage more kids to participate in said child labour, but NOT paying them doesn't dissuade them from doing so.
And how is Roblox's practice different from the creator funds of social media sites that rely on user-generated content to justify their existence? It's all very murky to me.
I think my problem with this model is Roblox taking such a large cut from their workforce, not that they pay them at all.
You might enjoy this
A 12-Year-Old Sued Roblox and WON https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dff7sHUzDww
There is a conflict between the concept that children are not mature enough to make their own decisions, and the concept that children should work. When children are involved, the usual practice is that parents must be involved and must approve of their children "working".
There is also a big difference between "work" and "potentially earn robux through playing Roblox". If you are making your 10 year old sit at a desk all day doing Roblox development - I agree, that's bad, that's child labor, that should be stopped. If your 10 year old has used the Roblox editor suites to create his own game and hopes to earn robux with it - that seems like a fine use of time.
There is a girl in my neighborhood who is constantly making and selling things door to door. I've bought a bracelet, cookies, and slime from her. Is this wrong? She's probably 10-12 years old and, I assume, earning less than minimum wage. Should I call the police? Child protective services? Do we need a law to stop her from doing this?
I would say that it isn't wrong for children to do things like this. It's behavior driven by the child that isn't harmful and might be beneficial. Why should you want to stop that? Same logic applies to Roblox.
You are making an awful lot of assumptions. I said parents typically must approve their child’s activities. I assume the 10 year old girl you mentioned was given the green light by her parents.
Nobody is complaining about gmod, halo forge, custom minecraft maps, etc.
This entire economy is unnecessary. I love that roblox allows anyone to learn/make/distribute, but the f2p nature of the game makes it slimy in a way that others are not.
So the moral argument comes down to "it's slimy"?
On some level, don't they all?
I think moral arguments that are good come down to “it is bad in specific, rational ways” not “ick”
No, they should come down as causing or avoiding harm/suffering
It is a gift... to Roblox.
"Roblox executives lie to justify profiting off of child labor"
This reminds me of my time in Netherlands, you would go to a supermarket and there were 10 years old guys fixing shelfs. Paid 2.5 euros per hour. Exploited by corporate since childhood, in order "To understand the value of money". Imagine living your life without dreams, just always as a bolt of the economic system.
> Third-party developers on Roblox are paid in Robux, the platform’s in-game currency
> user can buy 1,000 Robux for $12.50 but can cash out 1,000 Robux for just $3.50
> 15 years old, in Indonesia, living in a slum, and then now with just a laptop, I can create something, make money
> we wanted to be a resource for legislators as they start thinking about laws
Probably there are already laws, but by my side there is even something of greater value than those laws, and it tells me that you're a piece of shit
There absolutely are laws. England has had laws about paying people in "the coin of the realm" since the 1400s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_Acts
As for revoking children's right to toil, it took a lot longer.
"I owe my soul to the company store."
What's the problem with children working as long as there aren't forced to do so? If we are concerned about the economic pressure created from capitalism, the solution is to just give people money/UBI rather than prohibit the options they actively are seeking to deal with economic pressure.
> What's the problem with children working as long as there aren't forced to do so?
I think one the problems is that it's quite difficult to identify where a child is choosing to "work", and where a child has been coerced into the activity. There's a reason why we have a concept of ages of consent, where a child cannot consent to certain things, because their brain has failed to develop sufficiently yet in order to either understand the implications of their choices, or to understand whether this is actually their choice, or one that has been bestowed upon them.