Tohands – Smart calculator for small businesses
smart.tohands.inI think this is a ridiculously brilliant idea. It's probably hard for Americans and folks in the West to imagine why this is a big deal. There are millions of vendors who basically dominate India's retail market, which is probably one of the largest unorganized corners of the global economy with the world's largest population. There have been tons of efforts and a significant amount of VC funding to digitize unorganized retail (the Kirana segment) in India, and many of these companies have struggled. I think part of the challenge is that they were trying to get shopkeepers to change behavior and force them away from their existing sales and checkout process. The elegance of the Kirana sale/checkout is efficiency - no barcodes to scan, no POS to deal with, and it's probably 3-4x faster than any modern checkout process. However, there is one tool they always use - a calculator.
This product basically enables me to do what I already do as a shopkeeper and maintain existing efficiencies while I also have the opportunity to digitize my transactions. I think it could be a game-changer.
Full disclosure: I grew up in a tiny town in India, and this was pretty much 100% of my retail experience!
India's informal "shadow" economy makes up nearly 40% of GDP. There are clear advantages to maintaining proper books, such as improved planning and better access to credit. But do you think the smaller merchants this tool is designed to help will want to move into the formal economy and accept the responsibilities-- namely higher taxes-- that go alongside this? Or is tax evasion generally not an issue among smaller merchants in India?
> Or is tax evasion generally not an issue among smaller merchants in India?
I've read income tax evasion is nearly endemic there, but don't know how reliable that was. In retail the more likely problem is avoiding collecting sales taxes etc, but India has a goods and services tax which means most of that is baked in by the time you hit retail.
> This product basically enables me to do what I already do as a shopkeeper and maintain existing efficiencies while I also have the opportunity to digitize my transactions. I think it could be a game-changer.
Perhaps a stupid question on my part, but I wonder whether it'll really help you "maintain existing efficiencies". I'd imagine that a classical calculator-based workflow has efficiencies of the following kind:
- Approximately zero latency on I/O. Whether it's adding a digit or performing a calculation, screen updates instantly. This is something no smart device I've ever seen offers, because modern tech stacks make it near-impossible to achieve.
- Optimized for speed. Beyond no latency, this also means error-tolerant workflow. You can feel when you make a mistake, and it's easy to nuke the entire calculation you're doing and re-do it again. On the product site, I couldn't find a video showing how it's actually used, but going by the diagrams alone, Tohands seems to be effectively committing every time you press the "=" button. That feels like adding a pain in either having to undo things, or having to be super careful.
Please tell me if I'm wrong about the product, or the calculator-based workflow. I didn't work in retail, but I did observe people doing calculator-based retail and accounting in the past.
Super interesting. I think you are right. The whole play is about latency. How quickly can I get in and out is the only calculus in the minds of most retail customers in this segment. Like my mom would send me to the store to buy ingredients while she is literally cooking because she ran out of something, and I would need to be in and out in <4 minutes (including travel time)!
I agree that the calculator is literally in every one of these stores because of zero latency. The design question is how can you build something that has greater digitization and data storage capabilities (and I/O to connect to payments/phones) while keeping latency as low or close to a calculator. I'm just saying this comes close, where every other $100MM VC funded play wants to add significant latency to the design and thus have seen much lower adoption.
The latency is not clear from the demo videos, but there's no reason why the device couldn't sync with the cloud in the background. It's probably fine if cloud syncing is not done in real-time, which leaves plenty of time to provide an instant response. I'm sure this is something the engineers thought about, considering they seem to know their target market well.
From the video it looks like you use the dedicated "cash in" or "cash out" buttons to commit.
"The elegance of the Kirana sale/checkout is efficiency - no barcodes to scan, no POS to deal with, and it's probably 3-4x faster than any modern checkout process. However, there is one tool they always use - a calculator."
As someone that has worked a cash register both with barcodes and scanning, and doing the same thing with a calculator when power/computers crashed, I don't know how you can say a calculator is more efficient than a proper POS.
Labour efficient? Time efficient? Tax avoidance efficient?
Does this unorganized corner of economy really need to be digitalized?
I assume that it is organized well enough, maybe just not in a conventional western way.
Syncs with their phone app, to keep a track of bills and expenses. Based on the Espressif ESP32. Quite handy for small shop owners who can't have a full-blown computer+screen cash register.
Disclaimer: I am working as a freelancer for their next version of hardware that will be based on Linux.
I think moving to a full blown operating system is moving in the wrong direction. I think moving in the other direction towards a strictly hardware double entry book keeping system would be progress.
I think any operating system over complicates and encumbers the idea with un-needed dependices.
> I think any operating system over complicates and encumbers the idea with un-needed dependices.
The prime problem is latency, which becomes both noticeably larger and unpredictable. Both those aspects cause huge loss of ergonomics. It's quite easy to tell whether a piece of hardware is doing things directly in firmware, or if it's running a full OS with a software stack - the latter has neither instant nor predictable feedback.
A good example would be phones, for anyone who remembers the transition from feature phones to iOS and Android smartphones. That transition is where we lost predictable input latency, and thus ability to develop muscle memory and operate device without looking at it. E.g. texting people while keeping the phone in your pocket was a typical thing teenagers did, that became impossible with modern smartphones.
It's gotten worse since the introduction of smartphones. Instead of a button being hit changing into a pressed state instantly, they added animation that looks nice, but they end up making UI feels laggy and unresponsive.
That's because we lost keyboards?
Nah it's all the fault of touchscreens.
It isn't.
Forget texting from pocket. Consider why we can't really operate any of the common touchscreen devices, like phones, tablets and computers, without looking at them. It's because of unpredictable input latency, unpredictable UI timings, and unpredictable UI behavior all across the stack - from the apps with bullshit flashy UX, down to the OS which is not a real-time OS, and will introduce arbitrary latencies for arbitrary reasons.
The touchscreens and their driving hardware is itself fine. It's the introduction of a proper, non-real-time OS, that's the "original sin" here. Everything else is just decades of practice of writing for such OSes, with the fundamental unstated assumption that interactivity means user is looking at the display while operating the device. This assumption bleeds all the way to the very core of *nixes and Windows.
Nothing wild about using Linux on an embedded system. It's done extensively.
Lots of embedded work won't tolerate an OS, sometimes not even an RTOS, which I think was GPs point - nothing specific about Linux.
Or to put it another way, the only reason you would want to move to an OS is to add complexity to what the device is doing. GP is arguing that's a bad trade off.
My thinking from a digital system point of view is that double entry book keeping is the beautiful concept. This concept can easily be expressed using computers but it loses its beauty at each abstraction layer.
The beauty is lost because the user is using a device for double entry book keeping but many other back ground tasks could fail that are not directly related to the task of book keeping.
The user is now faced with needing to understand their goal book keeping plus anything that makes the book keeping device function.
I think a digital aesthetic can be found by creating simple digital devices that are highly specialized but would need something similar to phone to add all the fantastic features that a network device provides.
Imagine how great cars would be with physical buttons but an optional screen to mirror one's phone like device.
Finally I'm actively working on this idea with an 8 unit mixed use building. I'm trying to make it as sophisticated as possible with very simple circuits that don't relay on the internet to function.
The idea is that the industry is overly focused on the internet and completely ignoring all the very simple things that can be done digital devices. I think by establishing a digital aesthetic we can start to say something simple that requires the internet or an operating system is ugly.
I don't live in India (nor run a shop!) but I imagine for businesses that take both cash & PhonePe it could be a useful feature to collate the two, if there's some kind of API for that? i.e. so you'd have all sales in one place, regardless of payment method, and the daily/weekly/etc. total would cover everything.
Just a thought. I like the design! Keeping it simple & familiar, calculator works (or almost, just missing feature), no need to reinvent that part. :)
Anujdesh, this is amazing.
Is the calculator being manufactured fully in India or shipped from China? Curious.
Love the WiFi connected ability. Does the user have any choice on what api they want to export to? Or it has to be a specific app?
Even in the US, 90+% of gifts bought for Christmas are made in China. Almost anything containing electronics, plastics and some kind of plush fabric / faux leather seems to be made in China.
I wish the world didn’t depend on China so much.
Components are from China - everything is assembled in India (Bengaluru). It's probably impossible to manufacture with locally sourced components in India in 2023(especially displays, processors, memories).
The name is split as:
Anuj Deshpande
So Anuj is probably what you wanna call him on first name basis :)
My bad. Should have just used the whole username.
Necessity is mother of all inventions
What is the hardware like in the next version?
It's a lot more capable than the current version - but from the outside it's almost the same size and shape.
- Denser display with full color range (current one is monochrome)
- USB support
- Cellular modem built-in (WiFi isn't always available in stores, shopkeepers mostly end up using phone hotspots. It will still have WiFi though)
- Speakers
Would you say a shopkeeper could pick these up for themself or their salespeople and immediately continue with the same workflow, if they had been using a popular plain calculator up until then?
And it could provide additional layers of local and remote data handling from an easy to administer server app on the owner's phone without the need to concern the end users of the calculators with software whatsoever?
Seems to me one thing the calculator in hand can do is traditional real-time negotiating and discounting. Where something like the distraction of software could be a disadvantge compared to what came before.
The current version looks like a great solution, because it's so basic.
You risk adding too many features (and cost) in the next version.
A cell modem is going to require certification and of course a separate sim-card/data plan. Do they need USB unless they have a computer already? And speakers? Is this to play the radio while tending shop? I'm sure even the most illiterate can still read numbers, so TTS would be just a gimmick IMHO.
/disclaimer/disclosure/
I'll take the downvote as a measure of the number of HN contributors that still don't know the (important) difference. At least four people have hopefully learned from that comment. A strong signal to continue pointing it out.
Noted :)!
Great! Others could learn from your attitude :)
Nice project.
Few suggestions: 1. Change/Update your logo. I find it hard to read it the font is not best for alphabets. 2. In the product itself, the brand name is reversed for the shopkeeper. I initially thought maybe it's some smart name that could be read in reverse as well (like 1300135 lol). It is overengineered, just keep it simple it. 3. Add a real use-case demo in your website. It is currently filled with garbage/gibberish.
> In the product itself, the brand name is reversed for the shopkeeper
but it is not reversed for the client, who may be a potential future buyer of this product.
I know, I understand the thought process behind it. But the font selection ruined it completely. If someone picks the device, optically the first letters in the logo looks like "SOW" and brains tries to read the word.
Edit: Also looks like it has a display underneath for "TO". As I said, this is overengineering, removing it will save cost.
It will be help if any of the videos showed this thing actually working physically. So many flashy videos but none of them actually shows how it looks and works in practice.
This is absolutely brilliant. It doesn't change the way shopkeepers and small business owners currently work, which is absolutely critical to its success. Uses a familiar form factor, another critical aspect to its success. Can work offline. Store the history of millions of transactions and then sync the next time it connects. Is mechanically robust. Has a long warranty by industry standards.
Congratulations to whoever came up with this.
This is great.
If you mistakenly cash in/out, is there an undo?
I get the logic of it, but I wouldn't put those two buttons right next to each other.
yes a ux disaster
would you people be interested in opening up the api to connect to third party softwares? i have [gnukhata](https://gnukhata.org/) which is AGPL licensed accounting software and this would be great synergy between local hardware and software.
Genuine question: would this software also have to become AGPL licenced, if it's connecting over a network?
Nope. Thats never the case. you'd just open an api which hopefully the devs will make a connector for.
Sorry - what does "open an API mean"?
What I mean is, how would your device send data to a software? Open an api meant this interaction from hardware to mobile or computer is documented somwhere with all parameters and auth tokens and such.
As in call an API via IPC of some sort, e.g. HTTP? I thought that AGPL meant that the copyleftness of the licence would survive that.
[Serious] Can you not just connect a physical numpad to your phone and use the phone screen as display?
I think you could, but you wouldn't leave your phone in the shop for other employees to use. You would have to buy a dedicated phone for the purpose... At that point you can also buy a dedicated calculator instead.
Many people have an old phone they could wipe, however. Even a brand new phone for this purpose would be cheaper than this smart device.
Still very cool and there are UX benefits to this device.
This device is for 40 USD. What phones can you buy at this price point that provide the same latency, reliability, and big keys you can smash, as this device?
I did the conversion wrong! My mistake!
Smartphone can be finicky to use, also you "lose" access to the calculator if someone call you.
Because these are businesses that are probably using a calculator anyway.
It's very much a cultural thing - punch numbers into the calculator and pass it back and forth when negotiating on a price, or add up the costs on a physical calculator on your market stall. You aren't giving receipts or anything, so hard to keep track.
I'm in the UK so don't see it often, but if you go to India / Vietnam / Thailand etc you see lots of people punching numbers into calculators everywhere rather than using some sort of POS system.
Asking why you don't just use your phone with a numberpad is missing that the selling point here is that the user interface IS a calculator.
One of the big draws is a tactile interface that you don't have to look at while you punch in the numbers. Smartphone touch screens don't offer that and brick phones are too dumb or the models that do have some form of smart OS are not available in these places. This seems like a good way to tap into an existing market that's fairly huge while adding smart features
Seems to me most of today's "calculators" are either (a) dinosaurs of the past or (b) what used to be called a supercomputer. Lately, I've gotten interested in the less unexplored middle ground!
you might enjoy Swiss Micros take on old HP classics. DM42 and DM32 are lots of fun!
indeed!
Hey guys, Happy to see your comments. Shanmugavadivel Here, Hardware Engineer and Co-founder @Tohands
A single video showing actual device working will be very useful. Even if its just a prototype.
Very neat product and idea.
What challenges have you had developing hardware for this population? (Literacy, cost, picking what to focus on, etc?)
It's quite an elegant solution, especially for older people who are not used to smartphones or lack the budget for expensive POS.
Can this scan barcodes aswell?
That seems like a useful feature.
There's USB on the upcoming version - and it's a Linux based device too :)
This is an amazing idea as well as execution providing best use of resources to end users.
Question - what is the language used in the app ?
why not just use the (smart) phone?
For the same reason that we prefer typing on a physical keyboard instead of a flat touchscreen. When you need to type for more than a few minutes, screens can be exhausting. This device is aimed at people who use them for hours every day.
Also, unlike a phone, the advantage of a single-purpose device is that it doesn't need to be switched back to the right app, is unlikely to crash, and isn't something you depend on for a whole load of other things in your life.
speed
This product page is just terrible.
I went through it, played a couple noisy videos, I could not even read the labels of the 3 first rows of buttons, I have no idea how it exactly works...
Surely just adding and subtracting like the video shows doesn't record cash in hands etc?
Hi, I work at Tohands. Thankyou for the feedback! We're confident that you'll notice significant positive changes in the upcoming months. We would love if we can get more feedbacks for your end in order to be better.
Just a few of the problems:
* If your browser viewport is narrower than 1024px wide, the above-fold page section (i.e. the top, before you start scrolling) doesn't have a product pic. If the viewport is between 768px and 1024px wide, the main pic is left aligned and there's a chunk of empty space.
* Most people will view this page on a phone, which means that - unless there's a product pic - the headline alone has to do the initial work of explaining who this is for. The photo shows the ideal customer: a shopkeeper. It should be above or alongside the headline even when viewed on a phone.
* Top headline is about one of the main features but doesn't grab you with an obvious concrete benefit (e.g. time saved, not having to learn a complex new tool). "easily" is too relative. "Track your sales without any extra work" is more concrete (and I don't think it's a great slogan either, but it's better)
* The notice about "Unable to take orders" should be lower down the page, maybe on a separate page entirely. Let people click "Order Now" to see it, and you can track the clicks to see how well the page sells
* The Instagram videos are good but take up too much of the page, especially on mobile
* The YouTube videos don't explain anything well at all. The "Calculate Record Sync" video at least shows the ToHands in action but goes too fast and doesn't walk through clearly, step by step. There's a blue text bubble that had lots of text in it that looks useful but it disappears far too fast. This video should be at least a minute long and walk through multiple different steps.
There's a lot more to say about this and I'm not even a marketer, I'm a software engineer! But I'm happy to chat for a little longer about it if you'd like - let me know.
Simply posting your product manual online ought to be easy for you and helpful for your potential customers.
i have a fundamental problem with "accounting" for small businesses.
1. if they are registered with GST, they should probably start maintaining inventory and for that,this device is not useful.
2. if they are NOT registered with GST, they can't even bother with this because nowadays UPI is becoming the norm and all sale gets recorded there anyway.
this would only serve the niche of "not-registered for GST and using cash" but knowing how big india is, with the right marketing, this should blow up in a good way
> this would only serve the niche of "not-registered for GST and using cash"
Wouldn’t this segment have an incentive to not digitize their records as they’re evading tax?
This was the case several years ago, not sure if still relevant anymore. People evading tax were only interested in non-cloud solutions for their records.
No one is evading tax. Thats the beauty and craziness of gSt. All tax is already paid for and collected by govt.
What the end dealer does when he is nit registered for gst is avoid 18% tax on HIS MARGIN. thats peanuts compared to 90% of the product cost. That if end dealer gets 10% profit.
You only evade taxes in gst if you purchase imported goods outside of tax chain in cash or from manufacturers who sell in cash or service provider who sells in cash.
If you pay by bank, the gst is almost always paid beforehand
If the device is cheap enough(so theft is not a concern), and it has a wifi signal, a barcode scanner could easily be plugged in, or added wirelessly so it can track SKUs or whatever the shop uses. It syncs to a more powerful device which can maintain inventory counts .
Oooooooo
Now you are talking.
The website does NOT explain this. I read about the app which is meh. You end up like thousands of copycat khata apps that do single entry accounting.
Didnt test your app but that is quite difficult to do on its own so if you are able to connect with existing accounting softwares, then it can be much better.
(Just to clarify -- I'm personally not involved in the app, but the ESP32 platform is versatile, and IIRC has built in bluetooth, so I don't think it's big stretch to assume they could add this)
I think having a single place to record all your transactions would be a good feature. And if they have a way to send receipts to customers via SMS/whatsapp, it would be a great.
I would like a simple record keeping box that can be shared with more complex devices for applications requiring messages or complex reports. I would like to see the device maintain a simple "Datagram" approach for each transaction with text file export of grouped transactions.
USA, no idea what a GST is or it's requirements.
Gst is indirect sales tax on goods and services. Indian gst is modelled after Canadian gst/hst if you know that.
I think I know it as simply sales tax and some USA states have it and some don't.
Thank you.
It's not a sales tax, it's similar to a VAT but doesn't just compound.
So I suspect that if you are manufacturer, you pay it on your raw materials, you collect it on your finished goods, and there is a credit system in place so it effectively passes through.
Thank you for the clarification. Is it used to keep manufacturers from wasting materials?
Sorry for late reply. It's more complicated than that, most countries (there are lots with GST) who implement it have replaced something existing for manufacturers etc.
Usual justifications are 1) avoid cascading (you pay tax on the tax that was charged you for inputs) that makes things more expensive with more steps 2) simplify the whole system 3) make it easier for exporters to compete globally (e.g. because you can zero out the tax if govt chooses to allow)