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The Theory That Men Evolved to Hunt and Women Evolved to Gather Is Wrong

scientificamerican.com

25 points by pmoriarty 2 years ago · 23 comments

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mgamache 2 years ago

Sure women probably hunted, but claiming there is no evidence for a "sex-based division of labor" is hogwash. Some hunted the same game as men, some probably other prey. Some probably gathered food depending on their child status and physical capabilities. The article focuses much on the advantages women are provided due to estrogen. Sure for some activities (like child rearing) and general health the female hormones make sense. But, I have yet to see any athlete in any sport (including ultra marathon) taking estrogen for an advantage. Willing to be proven wrong.

meany 2 years ago

From the article: “The inequity between male and female athletes is a result not of inherent biological differences between the sexes but of biases in how they are treated in sports”

I don’t see how this claim can be made based on the available evidence. It could be proposed as hypothesis, but stating this as a fact shows that the author is pushing an end independent of the evidence.

  • rz2k 2 years ago

    It’s not an unreasonable claim with long distance running. Combine that with theories about persistence hunting, and how we see many traditional people choosing very lightweight weapons when hunting even very dangerous game.

    • meany 2 years ago

      I dont think it’s unreasonable to say that it could be true, but it’s stated as a fact, not a hypothesis

JohnMakin 2 years ago

I can see merits to this. A pet topic of study of mine is of the Donner Party expedition. A thing scholars of this interesting historical episode have noted is this is a very good example of the human body being stretched to its absolute limit of endurance with a decent sample size exposed to relatively similar conditions. Interestingly, a decent majority of the survivors were young women. It’s been theorized that they were better able to metabolize and make use of their fat stores than the men, due to their lower metabolic rate, and many firsthand accounts demonstrated that they exhausted less quickly.

  • rpmisms 2 years ago

    It's a different topic, though. Women are the bottleneck of population growth, men are not, therefore women having better survivability makes perfect sense.

    Men being stronger and dying younger makes perfect sense from an evolutionary perspective, and disagrees with the article. Sex-based division of labor makes total sense, otherwise men's mammary glands would actually work.

  • JumpCrisscross 2 years ago

    We see this in ultra-endurance, too [1].

    [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49284389

  • gaganyaan 2 years ago

    Do you have any reading on this? I'm curious because of

    > they exhausted less quickly

    In what situations? It seems like there'd be very different expectations of heavy labor based on gender.

  • mgamache 2 years ago

    Sure women survive more extreme conditions better than men. This includes dehydration.

refurb 2 years ago

Wow, the headline is a pretty terrible summary of the article.

To counter the claim that men were predominantly hunters and women gatherers is a scientific exploration of physiology, showing women are capable of hunting and have some attributes that are better than men.

Then it talks about edge cases where societies where women were predominantly hunters (though still the exception) or cases where societies where men were predominantly hunters there were rare examples of women also hunting.

Is it just me or does that argument fall pretty flat?

It’s like saying men don’t have more muscle mass because of the few examples of weak men and strong women.

The exceptions don’t disprove the rule.

  • oefrha 2 years ago

    > It’s like saying men don’t have more muscle mass because of the few examples of weak men and strong women.

    You’d think that’s absurd, but back when I took a feminism course at Stanford (that was a long time ago), that bit about strength, as well as height, was literally part of required reading and “discussed” in class (discussed is in quotes because no one was willing to discuss when I brought up statistics). There’s no arguing with those people.

Georgelemental 2 years ago

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aax9070

  • rendaw 2 years ago

    What is this? It looks unrelated, there's no discussion of sex differences in that.

bell-cot 2 years ago

Yes, yes - it looks like the Giant Evil Patriarchy is yet again telling lies about women's abilities and participation in higher-status, male-dominated activities.

OTOH - notice the longer-term advantages, for most historical agrarian societies, of pushing a "heroic male hunter" stereotype. If warfare is all-too-common, losing wars is generally disasterous, and you can convince your males (especially the younger and more aggressive ones, who tend to cause a lot of trouble at home) to zealously fight for your society - that may be your best-case use of human resources. The wiser heads know that, if push comes to shove, the women can and will do whatever is needed. So if ~~30% of the society's males get killed off in some big war every few decades, that's actually quite survivable. Vs. a similar fraction of the females getting killed off would be a real disaster.

  • dang 2 years ago

    Can you please make your substantive points without resorting to the flamewar style or ideological battle? Those things are not what HN is for, and destroy what it is for. We want curious conversation here.

    If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

  • rawgabbit 2 years ago

    I often wonder about this. Large scale wars I believe only occurred with the development of agrarian based societies. Nomadic societies would usually not risk all in a do or be enslaved war. Nomadic tribes frequently raided each other but could retreat and make do if necessary.

    Farms had to be defended. It would take years to restore a destroyed farm and what would you eat if the enemy stole your harvest and all your animals.

    My guess is such a winner take all scenario, they were not merciful to the women and children either. They killed those who resisted and enslaved the rest.

lucia-wermer 2 years ago

Taking into account the Scientific American article, the next question was given to some AI: Analytically evaluate the following text and answer the contained question with justification for each assertion. """An indigenous woman living one thousand years ago is walking through the forest when she begins to menstruate and experiences a sharp pain. She is unaware that an extremely hungry leopard is lurking nearby. Not far away, a man is also walking through the forest. Both the woman and the man have just bathed with a natural soap substitute containing saponins. Suddenly, the wind shifts, carrying the scents of the woman and the man to the leopard. The leopard can only choose one target. Which one will it be?""" Answer: Analysis of the hypothetical scenario: 1) The woman and the man have just showered with natural soap substitute containing saponins, so their scents are similar. 2) The leopard is extremely hungry, so it is more likely to attack the first target it smells. 3) The leopard is more likely to smell the woman first because she is menstruating and experiencing a sharp pain. This is because menstruation can cause changes in body odor, and pain can also cause changes in body chemistry. Therefore, the leopard is more likely to attack the woman.

khaki54 2 years ago

Is this the new standard boilerplate / disclaimer?

> Before getting into the evidence, we need to first talk about sex and gender. “Sex” typically refers to biological sex, which can be defined by myriad characteristics such as chromosomes, hormone levels, gonads, external genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. The terms “female” and “male” are often used in relation to biological sex. “Gender” refers to how an individual identifies—woman, man, nonbinary, and so forth. Much of the scientific literature confuses and conflates female/male and woman/man terminology without providing definitions to clarify what it is referring to and why those terms were chosen. For the purpose of describing anatomical and physiological evidence, most of the literature uses “female” and “male,” so we use those words here when discussing the results of such studies. For ethnographic and archaeological evidence, we are attempting to reconstruct social roles, for which the terms “woman” and “man” are usually used. Unfortunately, both these word sets assume a binary, which does not exist biologically, psychologically or socially. Sex and gender both exist as a spectrum, but when citing the work of others, it is difficult to add that nuance.

  • eioio 2 years ago

    Unfortunately yes, this idea has taken over academia like a wildfire. Those dissenters who point out things like, isn't it regressive and inaccurate to reduce women and men to a set of sexist stereotypes, are censured and harassed for doing so.

  • ngcc_hk 2 years ago

    One can defer woman as those that reproduce. Asexual reproduction still have female, mother, ... etc. There is certain requirement even if man can bring children, or machine doing it (tube-mum). And that affect a lot like change in physical and chemical etc. features of the bearer. What is the implication and the bias towards this group is a separate matter. Let us fix the basic definition first.

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