Third place
en.wikipedia.orgThis was a core part of Starbuck's strategy. They wanted to be the defacto 3rd place, and were making great progress. Before Starbucks most coffee in the US was diners or togo drip in a styro cup.
https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and...
Unfortunately, Kevin Johnson pushed hard to maximize profits and cut costs to the direct detriment of the original "3rd place" vision. His focus was on pushing toward smaller to go / drive thru locations. The logic is pretty obvious. Smaller places that sell more units are more profitable. Large comfy coffee shops where people sit sipping 1 coffee for hours aren't.
Laxman Narasimhan took over this year and it is unclear how that will impact things, but I doubt "being the 3rd place" is even a goal of Starbucks anymore.
The Starbucks near me, pre-pandemic, always had a few people sitting in it with laptops or books or sitting with a friend.
During the pandemic it was refurbished. All the tables were removed, and the floor size of the shop was halved (I guess they have a big stockroom area or something now?! I can’t imagine what it’s used for.)
So there are now no tables, and only a small public area at the front, which I’d say is mostly taken up by people who’ve ordered online silently coming in and standing until their drinks arrive on the counter to pick up.
Not only can’t I sit there (which if I’m honest I hardly ever did), but it’s a much more unpleasant place to be in now.
This is a little embarrassing to admit, but my favored Starbucks was very much a third place. It had a fireplace with shelves to either side. I got some old books and made a little library out of it. Even got some Starbucks-green metal bookends. Books for the kiddies. It looked cozy and nice. The manager loved it.
Then COVID hit and everyone was bafflingly weird about transmission via surfaces (that was the WHO's stubborn take on it then) and whoosh, all of it gone.
Starbucks and similar chains tend to have flat walls without any sound dampening, making them extremely loud, and also their furniture is intentionally designed to merely look comfy, while becoming painful to stay in for long. Even if they don't have a policy (like many independent cafes in Europe now do) of sending a waitress around to politely nudge you to order more or get out, they are not satisfying places to meet up with friends for hours like the traditional Central European cafe of yore.
A different thing I've seen around Paris is that "traditional cafés" still do exist, with comfy seating and everything, but many explicitly have a "no laptops" policy (complete with signs and everything). Most of them aren't even particularly busy during the day.
Actually, the "cafés" with the most people on laptops around me are Starbucks.
Do you know why they put up that no laptop rule? Is it to avoid people working or studying there for too long?
Yes exactly that. Many also used to boast about how they did not have WiFi, although people's own cellphone connections are putting an end to that trend.
I've always seen the big "NO WIFI" signs as a "polite" way of saying "you're not welcome to work from here".
I have no idea, I've never actually been in any of those places, just noticed the signs walking by.
I know that establishments like this sometimes don't like people hanging around for too long without buying stuff, so it could be the reason that people would just get a coffee and stay all day. But this is just speculation on my part.
Starbucks locations post-pandemic are effectively a fulfillment center for UberEats and Doordash. Every single employee appears to be working on a never-ending queue of drive-in orders. It usually takes me 5 minutes as a walk-in customer to get any service.
This is something really wild to me. I've never seen "delivery coffee" in Poland, it's just not a thing.
I would not have expected that!
I think I've been to two (urban) Starbucks in my life that were both big enough to even have the space to sit there not directly in front of the counter and also not in main train station with dozens of people in it. (And the 2nd ones urban-ness can be debated, it was in Mexico).
At least to me, in Europe, Starbucks is the epitome of McDonalds-but-for-coffee. Not great, but reliable, for a quick stop and not to linger.
In the US Starbucks popularized lingering at a coffee shop. There a lot of HUGE Starbucks that have fire places and couches and are really built to be comfortable places to relax and/or work. However, the trend in the past 5-ish years has been to remodel them to be geared toward pickup / drive thru which is a shame. The exception is the "Starbucks Reserve Roastery" which are massive multi-story stores mostly in touristy areas. The one in Chicago is 4 stories and has every comfort you could imagine, but it is pretty much always packed with tourists (still not a great place to hang out of work).
My local starbucks recently underwent a complete renovation. The result is a changed layout with probably 40% of the seating and that seating is more awkward. The goal appears to get 'em in and then out.
The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite financial transaction.
>The diminishing availability of third places
Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores"
Not sure I see any of these diminishing.
I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.
Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too.
Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.
There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones.
Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite).
One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy.
And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns.
Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).
Much of what you listed is a consequence of the Internet, which COVID exacerbated. It's unfortunate but society always changes, and this is one of them. It's OK to accept it and allow it to happen. Except one:
> Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.
This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with.
This is worth fighting for. The internet is not a replacement for a library and more importantly librarians.
Not only that but since so much of society is inaccessible without the internet anymore, we need to have public spaces with internet access.
In my head we need to consider libraries on the same level of societal importance as police departments, firehalls, and hospitals. They all must be free and universally accessible or there's no point to the centuries of progress humanity has made. [0]
[0] obligatory edit - police departments ARE overfunded due to illogical unsubstantiated fear-mongering, and because they are forced to do work that they should not be responsible for, specifically challenges of mental health, drug addiction, and poverty. Which end up causing crime, and so the police get asked to fix the symptom rather than the root cause.
>This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with.
It's more that people don't want to pay for libraries and they think libraries will breed a place for homeless people to exist. The town is extremely well educated. There are also many wealthy, entrenched people here that do not want to mingle with poor people. Lot of NiMBYing. The wealth of the town unfortunately does not bread empathy.
The internet shadow libraries are by far the largest and least censored to have ever existed in history. And they are accessible to all instead of just the people living in the exact right spot. They are so much better than any physical library, that it is really beyond any comparison.
A physical library is a nice and comfy environment, usually in a good location as well. But it is not honest to try to argue for them in any way as better than online tools. If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.
Internet libraries are accessible to those with access to the internet, which happens to be just one of many services offered by your local library! When my laptop was stolen I accessed the internet exclusively through a local library for about a year. I'd go most days and play League of Legends until they kicked me out. Good times!
> If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.
There's your issue! Libraries have much broader scope than just physical books. They offer free childcare, classes and meetups, digital lending (also free). If you're struggling to find something on the internet, an actual human is there to help! They can even offer suggestions on books or websites tailored specifically to you, and they won't collect and sell your personal info to do so!
The internet is great, I spend a lot of time here, but libraries are great too!
If you live somewhere without internet access, you aren't living anywhere near a decent physical library. There are many countries in the world that only have one large library, and it's located in the capital. Shadow libraries increases access for people in such a scale that it is beyond comparison. You can get any book you need at any time of the day, without waiting or going anywhere. If I didn't have access to shadow libraries I wouldn't be able to get a hold of the majority of the books I've read in the past years. Not even by paying.
With that fact, I see it difficult to motivate why money should be wasted on physical libraries in any larger extent. You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library. That's nice when somebody else is forced to pay for it, but I fully understand why politicians want to cut that from a budget. If the government was giving free Harley Davidsson-rides to the public, I'm sure a ton of people would love it as much as many people love the libraries, but it isn't justifiable to spend tax payer money that way.
I also loved sitting in the library and reading a magazine while waiting for the bus, but the money spent on libraries would be much better spent giving every child a Kindle. That gives access to books to so many more people, who would frankly not have been able to have access to them otherwise.
I had an internet connection at my apartment, I just lacked a smartphone or laptop. (It was actually kinda nice.) I met a surprising number of people in a similar situation.
> You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library.
Your purpose. Many others use them for different purposes. Growing up, mine had sports fields that were always in use and the best sledding area!
The American Library Association says each library decides it's own purpose.[0] Many, such as the city library near me, are choosing to become community centers attempting to provide a third place. I'd argue this has value the internet cannot replace.
[0] https://www.ala.org/tools/challengesupport/selectionpolicyto...
> I had an internet connection at my apartment, I just lacked a smartphone or laptop.
I think we're talking past each other a little. When I mentioned places without internet coverage, I mean rural places where you just can't get internet. If you live in the city, you can always get online if you really want it, even by borrowing from a friend. Compare that to places outside the big metropolitan cities, where information access was impossible before the internet, because they would at most have a tiny library with little to offer. The internet was an enormous revolution in rural communities, I lived to see it. That was in the 90s, and now the shadow libraries have made physical libraries obsolete.
Shadow libraries and eInk readers have done a thousand times more to give people access to books and information, than all physical libraries combined. That's why I don't think there's any future for physical libraries.
> Your purpose. Many others use them for different purposes.
I think if you ask anybody what a library is for, they'll say for reading and borrowing books. The money being plowed into libraries could be used for subsidizing e-readers and that would give better information access to millions of people, instead of a few thousand of people living in the right place to enjoy good physical libraries.
> The American Library Association says each library decides it's own purpose.
And the politicians deciding the budgets decide if they want to pay for that.
> Many, such as the city library near me, are choosing to become community centers attempting to provide a third place. I'd argue this has value the internet cannot replace.
Completely agree, but they shouldn't really be called libraries by that point.
The explanation for all of these places closing down seems to be rent. They can't make enough money on being a third place to pay increasing rent to their greedy landlords.
So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.
Money is a big factor and again it gets messy. I think the median cost of a house here is north of $800k. Rent is also high. Hard to hack it as a barista, librarian, book clerk, gym trainer, etc.
> So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places
And as with most 'modern' reboots, it's worse than the thing it replaces. Outdoor seating is worse than indoor, plus food trucks price gouge like crazy because they can.
>So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.
Everyone here owns $500 puffies so the drinks will flow (there's also an indoor space that's large). It's the anti-gay, anti-woman religion tie for me that makes me decide not to be a patron (not that I drink all that much...)
Heh, I know exactly which town you're talking about. I host my own little "third space" workout group after the gyms closed for lockdowns, and it's been super successful. If you want to ever stop by let me know.
Really? You don't see church diminishing, when church membership is at all-time lows? You don't see cafes reduced from places to have public conversation to places to do quiet, private work?
Christian churches are still there, it's another question that people are going or not. In the UK we also have growing number of mosques each year.
These aren't really third places, people don't show up to a mosque or church at any time of day to hang out. Maybe a church social, but that's an occasional thing and not the same as a neutral place like a coffee shop.
As a teen, the church I grew up with had a very active youth community center. There was always some group of teens hanging out there, always events going on practically every night.
At the church I'm at now there's something happening at the church at least four days a week if not more often. The playground has kids playing just about every day it's open. There are small groups of people meeting up there constantly.
Third spaces are anywhere where people can hang out that doesn’t cost money, or doesn’t cost a lot of money.
I would say that churches apply actually. And it’s not just the service itself, you have a lot of people hanging out after service in my experience. And then there is always Easter, Christmas, etc when there are snacks and everyone congregates in the basement.
Churches don't seem to be going anywhere though so the option is still there. I also assume church membership varies very much by region.
In part I agree, but I want to add that what makes a third place isn't just the kind of place it is (gym, library) but the design and attitude. So these kinds of places may be numerous but that doesn't automatically make them actual third places.
Same applies to church. It's still there, but people have become more irreligious on average, so they don't even notice they've lost this social outlet / community, especially if the change happened between generations.
Then they complain about not knowing their community. Well, the church used to be the center of it. What's the center of it now? Something needs to be, and maybe it's something that can't be provided by government or business.
The center of it for me are several communal housing places with large communal areas. They're not true replacements, as the people that live there are mostly similar - young professionals-ish without kids - and it isn't especially open to the public, which makes it not an true third place in my mind.
Businesses can't do it because they have a necessary profit motive - the bar doesn't especially care if you're buying drinks but they do care that they can't make rent and pay their bartenders and other staff.
We don't (or maybe we do) want to just hope a benevolent billionaire or collection of millionaires are going to swoop in and fund their places into existence. They're spending their money on palatial estates where you have to be in the know them to be invited, which makes it not a third place either.
No, third places need to be supported by the government - which churches and their tax breaks, and libraries with their funding, are. We have to accept a larger role of government than necessary evil, however, so I don't know if that's possible.
The problem with that is Americans aren't well socialized, so third places inevitably get the cops called and the places shut down. We all saw the Black neighbors getting the cops called on them by the scared White neighbors for the crime of having a BBQ and listening to music. The legal regime we live under is a huge part of it. Bars were barely a passable third space but when people don't drink anymore, there are no lounges to meet up and smoke pot in and just hang out at for hours.
Some of the Dutch coffeeshops -- places which did exist just to smoke pot -- had a pretty firm policy of not bothering other patrons. They were for people to enjoy their selection of cannabis product or mushroom, but not really to socialize.
>What's the center of it now? Something needs to be
It's the smartphone for most people
Every time I see someone asking where to meet people to date and then another person mentions gym you get a tons of comments bashing them about how the gym is NOT a place to find a date/gf/bf and you should absolutely not bother anyone. I mean, I understand the point, but the same is said sometimes about universities, random extracurricular classes, etc. so... where is people allowed to meet? Then we all scratch our heads wondering about the loneliness/depression epidemic and the atomization of society.
At least in my experience, these aren’t diminishing (or at minimum, highly available).
Every week I - play board games at a brewery - climb at a local climbing gym - play soccer on a public field - (usually) watch sports at a local bar
There are plenty of coffee shops and parks near me where I see people meeting.
It seems you’ve missed the point, all of those places except for the public field have a financial implication.
The Wikipedia article here includes places with financial implications like bookstores and cafes. I don't see why these have to be excluded, for a long time a nearby pub was my "third place", I knew a lot of the people there and would share life with a lot of them for several years.
Where I live there are also plenty of free options, I play beach volleyball at a public field, meet at the local lake to swim, meet in the local park to play disc golf, meet at the Pumptrack meet at the skatepark and in the winter go backcountry skiing (ok there I have to pay for public transit)… and everything accessible by bike…
If there are no alternatives just talk to the major or so… I know two skateparks and a beachvolleball court currently beeing build just by locals in their freetime with the full support (also financially) of the villages major/council… if there’s no support… move :D (I already did this twice because I don’t like living in such communities)
Third places don’t need to be free. Wikipedia article cites bars, cafes, coffee shops, gyms.
I think if anything availability increases, but may require more perceived effort (despite lower bar to discovery).
I've been full-time remote for 9 years, and the part that's really taking a toll on me is that, without third places, and without work, I have only the "first place". And that's just not enough to be healthy.
Offices still exist. You can come join those of us who like to go in to the office, if you want :)
Haha, yah, I'm working on that. :)
For family reasons I've been inconveniently far from offices for a while, and have a really good employer that allowed WFH (long before covid), but I've gotten pretty convinced at least 2 days/week in-office is probably important for my mental health.
I'd encourage anyone to consider if full-time remote is working for you; maybe it is, and for me I think it did for a time, but most of us humans (even introverts) are social creatures, and unless you're good about finding a third place, or making friends elsewhere, work is still a really good place to do that.
Offices are the second place, and we need a break from them.
Sure. Just saying (yes, yes, no) may be an improvement over (yes, no, no).
This has been on my mind for years, though I hadn't been aware of a the formal definition of a third place. If you grew up religious and then found yourself secular as an adult, you may miss that gathering together that goes with a church service, if not the accompanying beliefs. It's really too bad there isn't something similar but without centering around a core spiritual belief.
How cool would it be to have a building with a kitchen and a sound system and huge screen and instruments and a gymnasium and occasional childcare? You could still have book clubs and speeches, but the book would not be a religious book, and the speeches could be about anything apolitical.
You're almost describing a public library, and public libraries are, in fact, extremely cool
Public libraries should have gymnasiums!
Tsh Oxenreider recently posted a nice piece on third places.
https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads
I'm definitely missing have a third place in my suburban life.
World of Warcraft was a third place for me and my friends, and for some of my internet friends as well. The game itself offered low-intensity, low-attention interactions too, like fishing, and we would combine these activities with just hanging out, but online. It's one of the most memorable things for me from my time in that game, and that's surely because of how important this function is socially.
I discovered a strange third place last night: a Counter Strike Source server in my country. It had about ten different people talking over voice chat. They were all very frank and cheerful, and it seemed like they congregate there each night. I’m going to start joining regularly.
A lot of the comments here are bemoaning the lack of third places, but don't seem to have read the intro paragraph of the linked Wikipedia article.
> churches, cafes, bars, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, makerspaces, stoops and parks
I would also mention that many planned or intentional communities explicitly include a third place -- a community building, clubhouse, country club, student union, retirement home lounges, etc.
You'll also find rec centers, YMCAs, JCCs, etc.
Don't give up on finding your "third place" just because you don't belong to a church or have a for-profit business in your area that wants you to hang out all day.
Hmmm. As someone lucky enough to have a solid group of friends I’ve been a big user of Third places throughout my life. However, for years now sitting in a voice lobby(Discord) with my friends has replaced it. Same people, same vibe, more convenient.
What is a "third place" for introverts who are not very keen on socializing?
I don't think there's any particular requirement to socialize when at a "third place". So if you just go sit in a cafe, coffee-shop, bar, etc., and work with your headphones on the entire time, you're still enjoying a "third place". Some people (count me in this bucket) get "something" from simply being around other people, but don't necessarily want extensive engagement with those people - at least not on an ongoing basis. Sometimes you just want to listen to the Youtube video you're listening to, or finish the code module you're working on, or whatever. :-)
Me, I like sitting in the cafe at the local Barnes & Noble. I get to enjoy coffee, books, wifi, and a pleasant ambiance. And for the most part I can regulate how much I socialize with the people around me. I say "for the most part" because I'm such a regular there that I've gotten to know a lot of the employees and other regular visitors and have formed friendships with a number of those people, to the point that sometimes when I go in there I have a lot of people coming over to chit-chat. Which is OK in that they're people I enjoy talking to, but sometimes if I'm really trying to get some specific task done, it can be a little bit frustrating and I struggle with how to disengage from them without seeming overly rude. Still, on balance, I get a lot out of hanging out there.
I'm like my cat, in that I like to be near people, but not necessarily engaging. Sitting in a coffee shop doing my own thing is really nice sometimes.
I think in the future, zuck is hoping it's the metaverse.
Currently, for me, it's been hiking trails, quiet cafes, and bookstores where I can be in public, but generally avoid large crowds and if there are interactions they're most likely one on one.
I don't think it's really changed. There have always been introverts. So: "churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, stoops and parks", to name just a few. The difference is that there's a new third place called the internet that has replaced those for a lot of people, with many negative consequences and a few positive ones.
Obviously it depends on the introvert, but any quiet, casual space where the focus isn't on socializing. So for me, some places that come to mind are a climbing gym with plenty of space for lounging, makers space, a bookstore with a cafe, library, an outdoor public mall with seating and food, and maybe a dog park.
Before Discord was mainstream (2016-2018) there were some really fun public voice chats but now its 90% minge and not what it used to be. I've also met some pretty crazy people on the voice chat in Valve games and occasionally IRC. I go on SpaceHey a lot now to find new people to talk to.
A makerspace
Libraries
Online forums, libraries, bookstores.
Online forums
In terms of "virtual third places" I'd probably say that HN is that for me. :-) I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone in that regard...
Mine is parks, and nature generally
May 2022, Starbucks: We're creating the digital Third Place
(crypto/metaverse nonsense)
https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creatin...
I don’t think true third places really exist in the Western world anymore, at least on a large scale. If you read about the history of coffee houses in Vienna or in Istanbul, they were entirely different from the commercial-product focused coffee shop of today. In such places, the coffee was almost an afterthought, secondary to the social life that went on there.
The heyday of the coffee house was the turn of the nineteenth century when writers like Peter Altenberg, Alfred Polgar, Egon Friedell, Karl Kraus, Hermann Broch and Friedrich Torberg made them their preferred place of work and pleasure. Many famous artists, scientists, and politicians of the period such as Arthur Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Egon Schiele, Gustav Klimt, Adolf Loos, Theodor Herzl, and Alfred Adler.[15] Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Leon Trotsky and Josip Broz Tito were all living in Vienna in 1913, and they were constant coffee house patrons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house
Ottoman era coffeehouses democratized education across all stratums of society. Because individuals from a variety of backgrounds gathered in these coffeehouses, illiterate or low literacy people could sit alongside educated individuals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse
I’m not sure such places could exist in a world with smartphones and to-go drinks.
smartphones - it's only consumption of information not filtering of information that would be allowed by discussion.
hence why we've so much misinformed citizenry.
Thanks for the links