Exterminate your desk: How to remove your mouse
nickbusey.com> but takes more time than you think, and definitely slows me down.
Are you sure? I mean have you done a real test with an independent observer using a stopwatch? Back in the 1980s Apple did run those tests and were able to setup many situations where an experience keyboard user was still faster with a mouse - but they all claimed to be faster with the keyboard. Now to some extent they were gaming the tests (not all situations where realistic), but enough were that we can confidently say that the mouse often is faster even when it feels slower.
In my view, whether or not you're actually faster isn't nearly as important as whether or not you feel faster.
Feeling faster means closer to a flow state, and so more productive. Actually faster does not automatically translate to increased productivity.
In the end, I think the best method is the method that the individual is most comfortable with.
It really depends on the software someone uses.
Windows or macOS? It isn't going to compete with a twiddled Linux distro.
Use mouse-heavy programs like DAWs, Photoshop et al? You're going to have a bad time in those mouse-heavy programs if all your cursor usage is with arrow keys, getting further and further away from the speed-of-thought.
If all someone does is lurk the CLI and their IDE, great for them, they'll probably love it. For the average schmoe or digital creative, not so much.
Equally though, I do a good chunk of my computer usage with just a keyboard, but the right tool for the task is required for anything else, e.g., MIDI controllers, mouse, graphics tablet, touchscreen, TrackPoint, trackball etc. They're just options. Pros and cons to all of them.
The "extermination" mentality is an extreme view, and inherently very niche. That's without even getting into gaming, or users who do game dev.
I specified “work desk” for a reason. Of course I still have a mouse for gaming and music.
Shockingly, some work desks include MIDI controllers, mine included.
I replied to a comment and didn't leave a top-level comment for a reason.
I mean, sure, but Apple at the time also had a vested interest in showing mice were better for productivity.
IME, having actually worked on replacing an old mouse-less DOS package for a company in the past, it was 100% faster for the employees to use keyboard shortcuts for everything. In fact, it was their main complaint about the new package they were trying to substitute for it -- it slowed their workflow down dramatically. Some of that was down to unfamiliarity with mice but most experienced users of a given bespoke system that need to do quick data entry can mentally map out how many tabs it is to any given field, and I'd bet even money they can get where they need on any given data entry form faster than a person using a mouse.
In this era of web based UIs though, we've lost complete use of keys that can provide specialized functionality with one button press (what the F1-12 keys were designed for). Software just isn't designed to be keyboard-first for the most part these days.
Those test results are pretty irrelevant: https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/
I would like to see the results of much better testing, though.
> Moving your hand from the keyboard to the mouse and back, is … a large cause of RSI
Citation needed.
When I had RSI the doctor noted that it was only in my non-mouse left hand. They said the moving of my hand between mouse and keyboard provided a relief for my hand, and recommended I move my non-mouse hand away from the keyboard more often.
When I developed bilateral carpal tunnel at 15, my trackpad hand was notably worse and it was greatly aggravated by trackpad use. The difference was so significant that I only bothered having surgery on my trackpad hand (right), I avoided surgery on my left so I keep it as my grabbing hand, since the pain wasn't nearly as bothersome and switching to programmer DVORAK significantly mitigated the pain I was experiencing in the first place.
Around 10yrs ago I started developing RSI in my right hand, I guess partly because of the mouse scroll wheel, so I started mousing mainly with my left hand, but switched back and forth if that was more comfortable. While it solved the main problem, still didn’t feel as comfortable as I wanted. Now I have the perfect solution: standing desk, mechanical TKL-keyboard, and two trackballs on each side. I wish Logitech made left-handed trackballs, but the left-handed Elecom wireless feels okay and looks similar to the MX Ergo
Like many here, I'm sure, I've dealt with computer related RSI for years. I never made the plunge to mouseless, but I have significantly reduced the incidence of pain in my hands and forearms with these tips:
* Get separate mouse and keyboard wrist rests.
* Use more than one type of mousing device and switch up from time to time (e.g. trackball, trackpoint, touchpad, graphic tablet).
* Use a vertical mouse with a handshake-style grip as opposed to standard palm-down mouse, which can put stress on your forearm and elbow.
* Look up RSI forearm stretches and take breaks to stretch your arms and hands for a few moments at least every few hours. I'm also a big fan of gyro ball exercisers.
* An ergonomic chair with movable armrests can keep your arms at around the same height as the desk your working at, which also helps.
* Scroll long pages by clicking the scroll wheel and mousing down rather than using the scroll wheel the traditional way.
I use a MacBook Pro and I developed left shoulder issues. Sounds silly but I am thinking it could be due to heavy use of double keys like Cmd-tab, shift+ for upper casing. I unconsciously avoid typing the colon (:) and write (-) instead where applicable, like in “about this — “ instead of “about this:”, because this feels less painful. Not sure if I am just an example of 1 here
I also think the issue could be the mushy MacBook Pro keys. Not sure how to articulate this, or whether this is a known issue, but these mushy keys over time seem “painful” to use. However my problem with switching to non mushy mech kbs was that I had to always reach for a mouse or trackpad. The convenience (and ergonomics?) of the trackpad under the thumbs is great and normal mech kbs loose that.
So I am now going to try the UHK V2 split keyboard with a trackball module.
For carpal tunnel related injuries, alternating positions between mouse and keyboard will provide intermitent relief to the wrist tissues.
For shoulder/rotator cuff related injuries resting your forearm without weight bearing will provide relief, so repeatedly alternating mouse and keyboard will probably cause strain in those tissues.
Unfortunately the term RSI is a huge bag to say some non recovering 'chronic inflammation' which is not particularly helpful in these discussions.
Web is the achilles heel for mouseless environment. And with the rise of browser webgpu based UIs, trying to work around the issue with extensions is increasingly futile. Mousekeys can work as a crutch, but I doubt their convenience for anything but last resort use.
I'm an avid user of Tridactyl for Firefox. It does have some issues with complex UIs, but for the most part is very functional. Using many common vim motions for navigation and interacting with links is great, especially when I'm working undocked with my laptop.
Vimium exists for chrome, as well.
The only problem I have with going mouseless is selecting text (for copy/paste) that isn't in a tmux buffer. Copying from a pdf or web browser, you're SOL without a mouse. To my knowledge, there isn't a way to do this unless the specific application has this functionality.
You might be able to address this through the WM, which would be a fantastic accesibility feature.
Semi-related rant titled “Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983”: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/927593460642615296
It’s about the way software is designed around having a mouse, even when it doesn’t make sense.
Computer users of the day were experts, and they were accustomed to using a CLI. Today's users are less computer savvy, and use more applications, which means they can not memorize everything. That said, I do wish more applications provided better keyboard support, like IDEs do with reconfigurable shortcuts. Keyboard macros used to be a thing too.
> Today's users are less computer savvy
And today's developers are also less computer savvy.
Why when there is only one (1) input field in an application this does not get keyboard focus ? (Firefox, Teams)
I wish way more websites used the / or ctrl+k to bring up autocomplete menus like the Laravel or Tailwind websites.
Ignoring the health concerns, which can be addressed with a vertical mouse, I don't think mice are necessarily slow. When navigating interfaces that are optimized for visual search, translating the area that I'm looking at into a series of keys requires more cognitive effort than just clicking it. When visually scanning, my I subconsciously move my cursor to the area that I'm looking at.
Whether you want to use a mouse or a keyboard depends on the task you want to perform and its temporal proximity to other tasks. For example, when reading code, you tend to use a mouse wheel and visually scan and select references. A mouse would likely be faster. When typing, however, your hands are already on the keyboard, so VimMotion is faster. Finally, I love hybrid operations such as initiating a screenshot using the keyboard and selecting the region with the mouse.
Whether interfaces should be designed for keyboards or mice also depends on factors such as discoverability, frequency of use, and the amount of available operations. Command palettes are amazing, but they are less discoverable and restricted in their layout. Interestingly, Raycast, the discoverable keyboard-centric app, has a mouse-centric settings interface.
Of course, most of us already intuitively know this, but it's tempting to drink the keyboard cool-aid. I had a phase where I aggressively prioritized the keyboard and was frustrated by MacOS's lackluster support for it. My biggest annoyance with the mouse was the distance my hands had to travel when switching from the keyboard. Removing the numpad helped with this.
The mouse that I ditched in favor of this setup was a vertical mouse, I definitely agree that is better than your standard variety.
The mouse key layer includes scrolling keys, and I do actually have a scroll wheel on the left module which I use a decent bit while reading. Best of both worlds IMO.
Of course, to each their own!
> When visually scanning, my I subconsciously move my cursor to the area that I'm looking at.
I do this, too, but very consciously. It helps me to focus.
It's also why I tend to hate applications and websites that do things in response to merely moving the cursor to a magic spot.
wow, that keyboard looks painful.
Really, why would you use a hard wooden wrist rest? what a mess.
I had trouble with my palms years ago, and a soft wrist rest was the solution.
Your palms don't have high pressure points, the weight is spread out. This means the system of strings and pulleys from your muscles in your arms that control your fingers can function well, and long-term.
The skin slides across soft material.
Your wrists are warm.
and of course they are elevated and positioned well.
I have always used wood wrist wrests (for normal and split keyboards) and never had a problem with them in the way you seem to imply. It's definitely not "a mess".
I am using similar setup, without the touch module. I will never return to my usual TKL keyboard considering the comfort that I get using the UHK. I am hoping at some point the Naya keyboard is released so I can have a good trackball available as well.
I was really surprised at how much more comfortable my wooden wrist rest is. As another user pointed out, getting the elevation all I needed. Definitely one of my favorite upgrades to my setup (and definitely easier to keep clean).
Although I realize people don't take unsolicited advice, I would still suggest you try it with a nice memory foam wrist rest at some time. adjust the level.
I can type for hours and hours this way. It also makes a nice elbow rest (although you also shouldn't lean on your elbows for hours, can affect your bursa)
i think i'm going to trust the person who uses the rest to determine what's comfortable for them.
many people don't have a problem with the material hardness of the rest, they just need elevation. also fabric can get disgusting after a while.
>Your wrists are warm.
This is a bad thing in the summer.
> I have a designated key on my keyboard to invoke Shortcat. This let’s me “click” on anything on the screen (or in any menus, visible or not).
Oh, that's sweet. Anyone know of a version that would work in a Linux-based system?
Shortcat uses accessibility to provide this feature. Unfortunately the current state of Linux accessibility support is insufficient for this type of thing, from what I understand.
I was afraid that might be the answer. Or something like "Well foo can do it for most QT apps but nothing else, bar can do it for GTK2 but was never adapted to GTK3..."; such is the mixed blessing of diverse ecosystems:\
It's funny he mentions RSI, using a mechanical keyboard with greater key travel distance is worse for RSI than a flat low travel keyboard. The mouse is also much more efficient than the keyboard for many tasks, including in Vim. Reaching for the mouse doesn't affect the muscles related to RSI. In fact, for RSI, I'd say ditch Vim to avoid having to type constantly, since it's just a text editor, and use an IDE which gives you more powerful and automatic coding abilities.
It actually depends. The type of keyboard is not necessarily as important as the manner in which you depress the keys. RSI is usually caused by performing an action that isolates a muscular movement.
So for example, you might have a mechanical keyboard which may have a longer vertical travel, but if you depress the keys through the usage of the weight of the arm and let gravity do some of the work, you might be able to ameliorate some of the potential causes of RSI.
Source: studied ergonomics including the Alexander technique and Taubman for piano, some of which applies to computer keyboards.
My god, thank you! Why don't people talk more about key travel? I've had many types of keyboards. Split, tented, columnar layout. The one that does the best for me is a keychron low profile ten-keyless. Just because of the lower travel distance.
Hundred percent agree with the rest of your comment too. 'Vary it up' is the key to avoiding RSI. Almost a tautological point.
Hmm, so while he was busy optimizing and learning and tweaking his keyboard setup, others invent game changing programming languages like Go, and then also write text editors that make heavy use of the mouse, and of mouse chording:
So I’m sceptical whether this approach of spending ages on this really is that productive, cost-benefit-wise. Usually it doesn’t stop there, but this optimization becomes obsessive and conpulsive too often. Especially if they then also feel like they need to advertise for it in blog posts. Just the fact that the author thinks a mouse clutters up his desk seems to me like such a first world problem and a sign of lack of resilliency for real life. And before you know it your entire diet consists of vanilla ice cream, you pee in milk bottles that you collect, and you run strings through your house to erect borders for germ-free zones.
Besides it decreases compatibility and flexibility. “Oh, I need to do some Magic SysRQ shortcut. Oh, my keyboard doesn’t have the SysRQ key!” … “Oh, I need to ssh to a box to fix something. Oh, I’m so used to my heavily optimized nvim that I can’t operate the normal vi anymore!” … “Oh, I need to do some image manipulation. Oh, I have to spend 3 days learning and troubleshooting some GIMP keyboard shortcuts!” … “Oh, I need to connect to some completely out of date Java Applet based IPMI tool. Oh, to attach an iso image to it I need an obscure shortcut which I can’t do with my keyboard!”
I mean if none of these things ever happen, and one’s computer life is in such a narrow bubble that one can survive an entire year without it, then good for them, but I think for 99% of IT professionals it is either not worth it or impossible, and therefore irrelevant.
Does anyone have experience with both Shortcat (https://shortcat.app/) and Homerow (https://www.homerow.app/) to make a comparison?
Shortcat was closer to Vimium for me, so it’s what I’ve stuck with. I wish it was open source though. I’m a bit wary of giving accessibility permissions to such a small close sourced app.
I bought a thinkpad keyboard with the red joystick thing when I hurt my shoulder - it was only supposed to be temporary but I find myself rarely using my mouse. I’m not a great fan of the keys (especially compared to Mac keyboard).
Yes, "joystick thing"... https://xkcd.com/243/
those keyboards are great for servers or headless workstations. i have one on my thinkstation for the occasional moments where i need non-networked access. i have the usb version but they also make a wireless one.
Nice UHK. I've had one for years and don't use a mouse anymore either (on my bench-top computers). I have it hooked into a kvm switch controlling a handful of *nix machines. I still use a mouse on my windows gaming PC for reasons.
Interestingly enough, I ditched the touchpoint add-on too, as it really wasn't getting any use.
I'd really recommend the UHK to people who don't mind the price and want the benefits of custom keyboards without having to build on from scratch. I'm a hardware guy but have all sorts of other things I'd rather do than assemble a keyboard over a weekend. Delivery was hella slow though...
I moved to an external touchpad years ago on macOS and haven't looked back.
I can just rest my wrist on my table and move my fingers, it's also (IMO, YMMV) easier to find with my hand without looking.
With a mouse, the movement comes all the way from my shoulder and elbow, it's not practical to move it just with your wrist -> neck pain (again, for me, YMMV).
I do have a mouse I connect for gaming and 3D work, those are a huge pain for touchpads, mostly because they often require right-clicking + panning, which isn't really something a touchpad can do. A trackball might work, though?
> it's not practical to move it just with your wrist
Really? I'm trying it. I have my wrist planted on the table and just moving the mouse. Over the span of about an inch, it goes from one end of the 1920 pixel desktop to the other.
Tweak the mouse parameters, maybe?
I have a tiny Logitech M187 mouse. I sometimes work in tight places on the go; tiny desks in recreation centres and such.
I've tried but I cant hit anything with a mouse that sensitive, maybe it's a lack of practice but I've never bothered to try it for that long.
I think, the OS is supposed to do something to improve the accuracy of small movements, while letting you whip across the desktop without using a lot of room on the physical desk.
I often do screenshot edits where I'm doing a rectangular select with pixel precision. It's not easy to click without it moving off by a pixel, but I manage.
The mouse itself is a factor! There is a difference!
I didn't pay attention to this this before, but I'm doing a direct A/B comparison. I plugged an old Dell wired mouse into the laptop, using it side-by-side with the tiny Logi M187.
The M187 covers the entire width of the desktop in about 1/3rd of the physical movement compared to the old Dell wired mouse. I don't even have to rotate the palm of the hand; if I just move it left and right with movements of the thumb and ring finger, it covers the desktop.
However, I can still cover the desktop on the Dell without lifting my wrist. The movement is larger; I hate it. :)
The mouse settings in effect must be the same for both; there are no independent mouse settings per device.
Other options to remove the mouse:
https://tex.com.tw/products/shura-diy-type?variant=428450353...
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/feature...
I've used keynav successfully on Linux to emulate a mouse via my keyboard when my mouse broke.
Quite nice, especially with the right configuration (the default is a bit lacking for my taste).
However, I wouldn't want to eliminate the mouse completely, even though I do much of my work in a terminal like in the article.
I have been using keynav (https://github.com/jordansissel/keynav) for convenience for a while now, but still pick the mouse up for selecting text outside of the terminal since dragging is bugged.
Anyone have a Linux alternative for the Mousekey app in the article?
The mouse keys specifically are part of the keyboard firmware. So those would work in linux. For window management, i3 is a common one. Shortcat is the only one I haven't found a linux alternative for.
keynav can do that (both that exact version and a slightly different default mode)
I love the easy to use for Mac, is there anything similar on Gnome ? I'm aware of Sway,I3 etc. just don't have energy to switch. Please ?
I quite like Pop!_OS Shell (https://github.com/pop-os/shell) for tiling on Gnome, it feels like the right compromise for me of tiling while still having access to a full DE. Seems that installing it on other distribution should be easy enough.
I want to experiment with a tablet and pen to replace the mouse. My arm hurts too much with the mouse currently. Anyone have experience with that?
I tried this for a few years in a work environment. Wacom tablet with a OpenSuse box from which I did a whole lot of work in the terminal and via RDP.
It was really nice, however the pen was a bust for me. It ended up being a really large multi-touch/gesture surface and the pen got lost somewhere along the way. Never replaced it and never looked back, other than being a bit bothered that I don't know where it went.
A step before that might be to just switch the mouse to your other hand. It doesn't take too long to get used to.
I'd believe them more if they were an avid user of mousepointer-heavy software like Inkscape, KiCad, Gimp, &c.
I've played this game before. It's great if you never change what you're doing. If you get a new project that requires a new IDE or VM solution you spend hours setting things up again. The mouse is more flexible and better suited to getting work done.
This seems relevant. https://xkcd.com/1205/
It's the other way around in my opinion. If you learn something like vim/i3/cli tools it's relevant for future projects.
If you invest time learning IntelliJ, they'll release an update and move everything around. Now you'll be searching frantically and clicking randomly until you find where things are.
Yes that's my point as you change tools you have to learn new keys.
It's fine if you can dictate your tools are only vim/i3/cli. I haven't had that luxury.
I still low key think the GUI is a crutch for less savvy users and inhibits professional use of most interfaces. There is use for analog input, but I often wonder if rotary encoders and sliders might be more intuitive than scroll bars and arrow keys for most uses. That said for some tasks the mouse is quite nice, and it will always have a place on my desk.
I have no trouble thinking of myself as a "less savvy user".
I've been a professional programmer for nearly four decades. But when I'm not programming, I just want the computer to do things for me. If I can solve a problem by clicking a mouse (or pushing a touch screen) rather than remembering syntax, I'm all for it.
I'm happy to have a crutch. I suppose I could limp along on my broken leg instead, but why would I?
It's not a crutch, it's the main instrument of discoverability for unfamiliar UIs. By volume, 99.999% of all software is unfamiliar to you.
Microsoft Word is not a crutched version of VIM.
> Microsoft Word is not a crutched version of VIM.
No, but Notepad is.
Word is a word processor. Vim is a text editor. They're not the same thing, and they're not interchangeable.
My previously favorite keyboard, Das Keyboard, has a rotary encoder for the volume control, and it's fantastic. I agree that sliders and encoders could/should be used more. There are plenty of great MIDI devices out there that offer them, I should play around with some of them for day to day stuff like this rather than just music.
Same. The devices to test this are very cheap over at Aliexpress, or maybe Keebmonkey offerings if you want something a little better https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/megalodon-triple-knob-ma...
I wonder if I would get used to using a single key for each app versus Alt-tabbing. I believe this is the main cause of my left wrist pain.
> I wonder if I would get used to using a single key for each app versus Alt-tabbing. I believe this is the main cause of my left wrist pain.
I use that kind of setup (kinda) in i3, it is great. It's not one app per key, but one keybind per virtual desktop but I have i3 set up that apps autostart and gets placed always on same desktop
So going to IDE is always caps+4 (I rebounded caps to act as modifier), mail client is caps+F2 etc.
Then few keybinds to move stuff around for those 2% of cases where I need apps on different desktops than usual.
Previously favorite? I'm looking for something to replace my current KB, and I was wondering what your current favorite is/why you like it better than Das keyboard.
Current favorite is the UHK, linked in the article. Main reason is the split, secondary reason is the firmware for things like the mouse keys and custom layers.
I would think the main reason for preferring the UHK is the capability to add the trackpoint module to it, even though you gloss over it in the text. :D.
Btw have you tried the trackball? When they introduced the modules I was vacillating between that and the trackpoint, but ended up with the trackball (of which I'm very happy), but I would be curious of alternative points of view.
I like having a pointing device, but I strongly prefer a trackball over a mouse or touchpad.
That said...
> I often wonder if rotary encoders and sliders might be more intuitive than scroll bars and arrow keys for most uses.
I use a macro pad that includes a couple of rotary encoders along with the keys. I find them extremely useful, especially for scrolling. You should give one a try!
CLI will always be superior
Gui!=mouse based!=wimp