There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?
toolguyd.comFirst time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc.
It feels like the author is trying to not state the obvious that every comment here has pointed out - the batteries are lock ins, and expensive ones at that. For $100 I can buy modern electrical engineering marvels, or a run of the mill battery from Milwaukee. Or just a battery charger. It is this industry's way of making profits until they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.
This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163.
You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work.
The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.
It's not quite as cut and dried as that, but it's getting closer as the brands expand. My contractor friend would refer to various tools as the "Brand" because he had one cordless tool from that brand because they had the one he needed. "Go grab the Makita", that kind of thing.
From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
> From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
Turn-over is much lower. A professional may buy a whole line of tools from a single brand but with the expectation that they may replace them all in several years. This allows some level of comparison and movement between brands as quality varies over time.
The part-timer/prosumer is locked in for a decade or more and ends up tying the tool brand to their identity...
It can vary company-by-company, but many contractors are their own little company and use the tool they need; a $250 battery is nothing if they need to keep working.
They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy (literally give it back to Home Depot when there to get something else), since the time spent isn't worth it.
> They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy
I'm this way as an individual customer, to be honest. I ignore warranties entirely because they're rarely worth all of the hassle that comes with them.
It’s a rational choice for an individual but if people would always use warranty it would create an incentive for manufacturer to keep some minimal quality level to reduce cost of replacements/returns.
Also the cost of it for the contractor is just passed onto the consumer/client if they’re doing business “right”.
I used to work at HD supply hardware store (store targeting commercial contractors) and there isn’t even price tags on the items at all. Stuff is super expensive but all that stuff is baked into contract budgets
There are exceptions depending on what you're doing, but generally speaking 95% of your cordless tools will be one brand.
And it'll often be for the advantage of a single warranty/service/repair contract as much as a unified battery logistics chain.
When you have crews burning out a half dozen assorted hammer drills, recirc saws, electric rivet busters, etc. a week then the service side of the contract really comes in to play.
Dewault has a 'sneaky' tactic. I just needed a battery. Tools run fine. You can't buy a new battery, of the legacy style, from the big box stores though. They do sell a battery adapter so you can use with their new style batteries with your existing tools. Now that you have a new battery to use with your old tools, might as well keep buying new tools to match that battery.
Why aren't ZYXNOO and BAJIP and all those Amazon brands selling cheap and modular replacements?
They are.
I have some clone Makita batteries and tools that are fine.
Your average tradie would rather just do a cash in hand extra job vs spending that time researching and waiting for some clone tools from China.
The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary.
It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well.
It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-converted to 48v, then the power switching in the tool needs to handle higher voltage too (which I think is actually not a real concern, could actually help a lot).
But more obviously, it's a question of form factors. Tools have shapes that conform to & support their packs. USB doesn't have any kind of a play here right now, only defines a connector, cable & how data & power are to be transmitted.
It's hard to imagine getting out of this tar-pit. Whose going to start building more expensive packs that spit out standard 48v usb-pd? What hero would do that?
Side note, some day I'd really love to see a much higher amperage USB connector. Usb-d should be able to do like 30a, 1.5kW at 48v. Big ask, but it's one potential exciting frontier I hope "universal" extends into. My other ask is for a longer range 5+ gbps USB4, but that seems maybe potentially harder, I dunno.
Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB?
Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.
I'd love for there to be some competition. Absolutely.
This submission is about cordless power tools batteries, so that somewhat affects the scope. In general, cords can be super dangerous & limiting for power tools, so battery based has naturally really taken the heck over, for all kinds of good reasons. Even still, I think the questioning is fine & good, could apply to this segment.
Bluetooth is a bit hard because of pairing. Where-as a physical connection is unmistakable & zero additional effort.
I'd also point out, we're still bloody fucking awful, just dogshit terrible, about using USB. USB-hid has really nice specs for batteries & chargers to offer telemetry. Our wall chargers could report tons of stats on what they think is happening. Our batteries could self report all kind of stats. There's no good reason we have simply ignored the longstanding spec for so long, made such & continue to make such poor use of USB, other than abysmal expectations & abysmal delivery. (well, for a while, usb charging's high power modes only worked if there wasnt any data, and that was a dumb if valid reason).
It would be great to see usb-pd batteries keep winning and wireless telemetry.
Oh, the Bluetooth thing was just an aside about not caring about having communications on the same cable as power for higher power devices, I don't think it's very relevant to power tools.
My point was more about not having the higher power delivery implementation tied to a complicated, relatively expensive, high speed data bus.
The reason stuff doesn't do any reporting is that people mostly don't care and it would add some small incremental cost, it's not a big mystery.
> My point was more about not having the higher power delivery implementation tied to a complicated, relatively expensive, high speed data bus.
The reason most DC power delivery systems failed to be general purpose was that unless you pick some not very useful lowest common denominator voltage you need some sort of data bus to request/negotiate/handshake voltage for each device. If you are already building in a data bus into your power delivery lines you might as well give it some speed so that you could run other communications over it, at which point you likely just wind-up reinventing something like USB if you are planning a "simple, dumb DC power delivery standard".
Bluetooth is much more complicated than the basic power negotiation on USB-PD.
At my last job we designed a lot of wireless devices. One problem we saw frequently was that in high population-density areas, e.g., apartment buildings in NYC, Bluetooth was often useless because there was simply so much interference from so many devices in a small space.
Wired communication definitely still has its place.
The USB connector is the problem here. For a tool like these, I'd certainly want one that's more rugged than USB-C. Those things are fragile.
It could potentially be fixed by overmolding the USB-C connector: keep the connector, but stick it in a little jacket to make it foolproof. A bit like etherCON[0]: compatible, but way more rugged. They actually already have variants for USB-A![1]
There is already a USB-C variant, but that one seems a bit lacking.[2]
[0]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/data/ethercon
[1]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/multimedia-conne...
[2]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/multimedia-conne...
I thought we were talking about USB-C as the interface between the battery and the tool. If that's the case, the connector would be embedded in the battery so it mates with the receptacle when you clip the battery onto the tool. There wouldn't be something you can put a sleeve on (and that wouldn't be necessary as the case of the battery is, effectively, the ruggedized sleeve.)
I have an SBC that mates with an external hard drive in this way. You put the hard drive in an enclosure that clamps onto the base of the SBC and a USB-C connector mates when you do.
That's what needs to be more rugged. It's not just external side-to-side forces here, it's the actual mating and unmating of the connector that needs to be ruggedized. USB-C is too delicate for that, at least in my experience.
You want something that has big, beefy contacts that can handle being connected and disconnected a lot, by people who are not being anything close to careful when they're doing it.
If the battery already had to slide into place, it the jack & plug were already pre-aligned, I think the connector reliability would be absurdly good.
The biggest on the job problem would probably shift away from mechanical stress entirely, & be an issue of degree. Sawdust & gunk getting into the jack or plug.
I agree that a better connector would be awesome. I'd love a high amp big leafy thing.
As pointed in the article, battery packs aren't that expensive.
When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7
10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack.
Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.
No way it was close! I just did this on for a 6AH Makita. First of all, taking apart the pack... for science, the batteries were name brand but not the best and were under-rated capacity.
Second, I shopped around and found LG MH1 INR 18650 3200mAh HD 10A for under $5 per cell. So my 5S2P (18v 6AH+) battery with BMS and new case was less than $70 shipped with damn fine cells.
The cheapest knockoff amazon battery that works with Makita is about $50, but those are seriously sus in both cell type and BMS. Homedepot has the OG Makita 6ah at $200+.
The only thing you need contemplate for DIY is the quality of the BMS. Don't charge batteries when you are not paying some attention.
It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations.
Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for double the recording time as their 2Ah battery. Right?
Which would you rather buy, a 6Ah cordless power tool battery for $79, or a 5Ah battery for $89? The batteries are the same size and weight. Depending on the application, the 5Ah battery might outlast the 6Ah in use.
You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better?
With a bit of research on your phone, you learn that the batteries are built with 5x 18650, 5x 21700, and 10x 18650 Li-ion battery cells, respectively. All three 3Ah batteries are the same price. Does this help you choose?
Power tool battery selection is not as intuitive as looking at a 20W USB charger and simply knowing it will charge devices at a faster rate than a 5W charger. There are enough "what battery should I get?" questions in my inbox and messages folders, as well as all over online forums, for me to believe the confusion has gotten worse over the years as new overlapping technologies were introduced.
Many users don't fully understand that there can be huge differences in power capabilities. A 1.3Ah battery and a 12Ah battery of the same voltage and cordless system are going to deliver very different levels of power. A lot of tool users learn this the hard way. It's not their fault, as a 12Ah battery might be simply advertised as delivering more than 9X the runtime.
With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand?
In my opinion, if user experience concerns can be addressed, and numerous technical obstacles flattened, companies "making profits until they get regulated" will be the easiest hurdle to overcome.
If you want to better understand why replacement batteries cost so much, look at different brands' sales and promotions. The Makita XGT circular saw kit (GSR01M1) is $299 right now across authorized dealers, and you get a free extra battery. The same 4Ah battery (BL4040) is priced at $199 to $219, each. So that's $299 for the kit with a total of 2 batteries plus a saw, charger, and tool bag, or $398 for just 2 batteries.
Based on this type of retail math, I'd say replacement battery prices are set to balance out the promos.
But you generally can use a low power battery with a high power tool within the same brand. My 2Ah battery fits in my Dewalt 20V chainsaw. I'm guessing it has drastically less power and drastically reduced runtime (fewer cells -> more series resistance). And this would reflect entirely on the brand, except that people generally know enough to understand that using a much smaller battery than what came with the tool might result in a problem.
Marketing comparisons across brands is a matter of regulation (as opposed to say letting manufacturers post blatantly fraudulent specs like they did for shop vacs for the longest time). Or the market will adapt and it will just be common knowledge that "4Ah" in Ryobi land is more like "3Ah" in Milwaukee land (I've no idea if that's the case, just making up an example).
Overall yes, companies will come up with a myriad of reasons why they need more control in the name of "helping" people, and some reasons may even have some legitimacy. But ultimately they want that control to further their own self interest.
I'm guessing it has drastically less power and drastically reduced runtime
Yes, pretty much. A lot of people don't realize this and have no reason to assume otherwise.
Let's say you can lift up to 50 pounds, and your friend can lift up to 100 pounds. You are both tasked with moving a pile of 5 pound weights from one spot to another.
You can move (50) 5 lb weights before getting tired, your friend has the energy to move (100). So, you have the energy to move 250 lbs, and your friend 500 lbs.
However, increase the load to 40 pounds. 45 pounds. 49 pounds. If your friend can move 10 49 pound weights before tiring, are you going to be able to move 5? The work being done is 50% of their max effort, but 99% of your max effort. You might give up after 2 despite technically starting with the energy to move 5.
But ultimately they want that control to further their own self interest.
Of course. But given many of the questions I've fielded over the years, consumer education and expectations will be a considerable challenge.
A common battery interface wouldn't be enough - if even possible at this point; there would also have be industry standards in how tools and batteries are characterized.
I appreciate the response. I might just not be the target of your blog, in your given example:
>You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better?
>With a bit of research on your phone,
Personally, myself nor anyone I know who uses power tools more than just buying a 12v drill once, would do this research on our phone in the aisle of Home Depot. If I see three batteries all rated the same, it would be a price decision or a form factor one ("bigger must be better"). That could be where my disconnect is - I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.
>With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together.
This happens now across the consumer and business space. I have clients at work who buy a cheaper usb-c dock for their laptops, because why is the Dell official one $250? Some users might run into issues with it while others in their company don't. Some blame the dock, some blame their old laptop, some curse that their company didn't buy them Apple devices. The truth is always somewhere in the middle, sometimes it is the dock but sometimes it isn't. Dell doesn't care - they made $100B last year and they'll just tell you to buy the official Dell dock even if it is your old computer causing the issues.
But I, and everyone I know, would hate it if no one made those cheaper usb-c docks and just limited our choices to the $250 options.
The math behind the market of the batteries also doesn't interest anyone I know. We don't care how / why Milwaukee or Makita runs deals, we're just mad that we're spending so much. More options, and cheaper options, have never been a bad thing in a market.
>Personally, myself nor anyone I know who uses power tools more than just buying a 12v drill once, would do this research on our phone in the aisle of Home Depot. If I see three batteries all rated the same, it would be a price decision or a form factor one ("bigger must be better"). That could be where my disconnect is - I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.
Even if conducting your research at home and online before buying into a cordless platform, you might encounter similar options and potential confusion.
Here are two Dewalt 20V Max batteries:
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb230/20v-max-compact-3ah-ba... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb200/20v-max-3ah-battery
Here are two Dewalt 6Ah batteries:
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb206/20v-max-xrr-6ah-batter... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb606/flexvoltr-2060v-max-ba...
Here are two Dewalt 5Ah batteries:
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcbp520/20v-max-dewalt-powers... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb205/20v-max-xrr-5ah-batter...
More knowledgeable users have difficulty sorting out the differences. I used Dewalt as an example, but every brand has their own nuances to understand.
Bigger is still usually better, but not always, as the scale is no longer linear.
Most consumers expect a linear relationship.
>But I, and everyone I know, would hate it if no one made those cheaper usb-c docks and just limited our choices to the $250 options.
There are 3rd party batteries and adapters available on Amazon, ebay, and direct-import sellers.
I would never touch them, but they're there for those who want to buy them.
> I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.
I wouldn't expect most people to.
The main source of confusion is that each cordless power tool brand has battery options across several different technological generations.
Different brands' like-capacity batteries can have different power capabilities as well.
The end result might be that consumers will be presented with multiple batteries all labeled the same, such as 18V 4Ah, with all different capabilities.
People would spend less, but get less and not understand why.
Simply being able to swap batteries around wouldn't be a sufficient fix by itself.
It's like using a micro USB cable with a USB-C plug adapter, and expecting it to charge a laptop at 100W.
I'm not sure if it's intentional, but your example about a 6 Ah battery being worse than a 5 Ah battery seems to apply to Ryobi's 40 volt line, due to using cells from inferior brands[1]*. In this case however the inferior 6 amp hour (10s3p) battery is physically larger than the 5 amp hour (10s2p) and conveniently does not fit into some of the higher drain tools in this line, such as their chainsaw.
A potential solution to this problem is that companies be required to make the datasheet for the cells in their battery packs available to consumers. Presently I am not sure if there's a way to find out what cells a pack is made from except by taking it apart, which both voids the warranty and can be dangerous if you aren't careful.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ryobi/comments/oxn53g/psa_ryobi_is_...
I hadn't heard about that until now, but also am not surprised to see sourcing vary. A lot of time this seems to have as much to do with volume as it does with cost.
A brand has wire strippers on the shelf at Home Depot year-round, and they're made in Taiwan. When they ship promo displays with high volume count of pliers for the winter holidays, the wire strippers are made in China. I bought both, and found the ones made in China to be slightly better quality. Cost could be a consideration, but there's logistics involved with shipping a couple of dozen tools per store x 2000 stores plus online distribution.
I wouldn't be surprised if batteries could be sourced depending on production volume or manufacturing location of the tools they're bundled with in kits.
Cell availability is also an issue. Festool is discontinuing their 5.2Ah battery and replacing with a 5.0Ah battery. I cannot find either in stock anywhere right now. The slight change will give Festool the flexibility to source 2.5Ah or 2.6Ah batteries. It's better to build a 5.2Ah battery that's labeled as 5.0Ah, rather than sell a 5.2Ah battery that only has 5.0Ah capacity.
A couple of brands have had issues with 5S3P batteries not fitting tools that weren't designed for them. Milwaukee, for example, replaced the battery bays of some of their lights when their first 15-batteries came out. I don't think Ryobi ever offered similar.
If Ryobi had new tools that wouldn't fit their larger 6Ah battery, that would be bad.
In my example, I was referencing 6Ah batteries with 3Ah 18650 cells that have higher internal resistance compared to 2Ah and 2.5Ah cells.
Datasheets are tricky.
If I recall correctly, when Milwaukee launched their 5S3P M18 9Ah HD battery, the best 3Ah 18650 cells were rated to top out at 15A continuous discharge current. The best 2Ah cells were rated at 22A. So why would a 5S3P battery with 3Ah cells be any better than a 5S2P battery with 2Ah cells?
I asked the product team exactly this and they mentioned that data sheets are a good starting point, but don't directly dictate real-world performance. What it comes down to is cooling. That, and batteries are regulated so that tool power and performance is comparable across different battery sizes or types of batteries.
Batteries would need to be characterized in terms of max power delivery at a rated temperature. This is very hard to do at high loads, given the cost of test equipment and safety precautions.
Tools would need to be rated as well, something that isn't done at all right now.
I attempted to do that once, but found that maximum power draw depended on the application and work material, type and sharpness of the accessory used, and depending on the tool the type of battery it was paired with.
Look online to see how much dislike there is for the UWO (unit Watts out) unit that Dewalt uses to describe their cordless drills and select other tools. In theory, this is a better measurement for comparing how one drill might perform compared to another, taking into account both speed and torque. In reality, everyone simply wants to know the max torque specs.
I'm not saying it's good to have to buy different brands' proprietary batteries to power their tools, but that - even if possible - a universal battery system will be consumer-unfriendly in other ways.
I really hope I'm wrong.
> With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand?
I have a DeWalt drill that I bought some years ago. I literally have no idea if the drill performs well or not no matter what batteries would go best into it. My requirements are fairly low, I just occasionally need a drill.
The vast majority of consumers out there that buy a drill for their home don't care about all the performance issues that you like geeking out over. And they don't need to care.
Are you drilling 1/8" holes or driving in small screws a couple of times a year? The batteries that came with your tool should last many years.
Every type of user wants less expensive batteries and more opportunities to save money.
What about consumers who use cordless blowers? An increasing number of towns and cities have ordinances banning gas engine blowers.
Cordless chainsaws are increasingly popular with homeowners, and their power requirements can be very different from those of a cordless drill.
Every brand now has cordless trimmers, mowers, and more.
A universal interface would all but require most users to start having to geek out over battery selection unless they stuck with their tool brand's options.
Even if all the technical hurdles are knocked out of the way, what's to stop brands from designing their tools to only deliver their full potential when powered by their own batteries? At least one brand already does this.
So you might not care about geeking out, but what happens when you buy the wrong battery and your cordless mower can't cut tall grass when it can with the batteries it was sold with?
Well said.
> "until" they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.
In the US though, very unlikely that they will be regulated.
The tool costs $100. The battery costs $100. The tools only work with the one battery, the batteries need replacing, and you need more of them to use multiple tools at once.
It is about money. Money from batteries, money from vendor lock in. This isn't cynicism, it's economics. These companies would probably lose at least half of their profit, maybe much more, if they gave up the battery.
And there's more reasons. If you want people to buy more tools (of course you do) you want to be able to phase out the old tools, and the best way to do that is a new incompatible battery. Or if you want to use a different voltage. Or if you want to ensure the battery won't set the tool on fire and cause returns or lawsuits. Or if you want to change the balance, or form factor, or something else.
I have several tools, thus several batteries, and never use them all at once. I have never in well over a decade had to replace a battery.
And even though they changed battery tech, all the tools still work with batteries in both directions. They designed each new battery tech to do that.
What tool system do you think has all the problems you listed?
I’ve never bought a battery. I assume someone somewhere does, but I have enough “free” ones that will last for a long time.
So you are saying that when you are going to buy a new tool you will stick to your brand - since you have lots of batteries you can buy the discounted tool that comes without one.
Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape and power characteristics as well as the charging are still areas where companies can innovate and differentiate themselves. I'd rather have to choose a brand than get some out of date, un-ergonomic "approved" battery and connector that I have to use with my tools.
It's fundamentally different than phone cables, where the shape of the connector doesn't really matter and was / is purely a lock-in. There are big differences between the choices the cordless tool manufacturers have made re batteries. It's certainly not a place for government mandates.
You can buy adapters from one manufacturer's battery to another's on Amazon for like 20 bucks. It is 100% manufactured scarcity and lock in.
From TFA:
> As many readers might be aware, you can find 3rd party battery adapters on Amazon, eBay, and other such marketplaces.
So, why is anybody arguing it is not just about lock in, when their specs are similar enough that they are interchangeable - more a rarity than the norm in the realm of electronics? It is a pertinent thing to point out, since if the tools work just fine using each other's batteries, any other answer rings hollow in light of it.
So, please don't TFA me, it is unsavory and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.
The Torque Test Channel has done several tests with a single tool using different batteries, comparing (usually) the torque the tool can produce with each. E.g. this[1] with a DeWalt impact driver.
Well I spent too much time on that channel! For that specific test, he is testing no-name batteries against name brand. But there are adapters like [1] that allow you to use another name brand battery in your tool. That test would be the one that matters. Also, if all tools used a standard battery format, there would be much, much higher quality off brand batteries just because aftermarket products for improving performance would make more sense (along with the sloppy cheap stuff, of course).
[1] https://www.amazon.com/ZLWAWAOL-Battery-Converter-Compatible...
Well that lets people have the best of both worlds. Few serious tradesmen who use a tool all day are going to use a battery with an adapter. Ergonomy is a big factor, tools get updated regularly anyway, and it's not a big deal to buy into one or more systems. But if someone for whatever reason has a hodge-podge of tools, they can get an adapter.
Almost all of those "innovative" shapes hold the same kinds of battery cells.
These could be user replaceable.
But really, you could 6 different shapes that would serve 99.99% of the use cases, and the other .1% could have replacable cells.
As long as working people deny the descructive forces of profit .vs technical excellence, this won't improve.
Why can't companies innovate within a standard, and indeed innovate the standard itself, like usb, ethernet, etc?
One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not.
The reality is that for most tradesmen and users it’s just not a problem at all. If all your tools are one battery, fine. If one is different then that’s the “toilet plunger battery” or whatever, and if you have an eclectic mix then you probably keep them relatively organized.
And if you really really want to you can 3D print or buy adapters with varying success.
> One proof of this is the various battery formats a given manufacturer can have; some compatible some not.
Or it's proof that they want you to have to buy their new batteries when your old tool dies.
I’m talking various lines they are currently selling, not old nicads
What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards.
Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again.
I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why?
It’s like an xkcd.
12v used to be darn weak, but it’s much stronger now - M12 chainsaws aren’t complete jokes, for example.
Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools.
At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
There's really only a handful of battery voltages used across all manufacturers. It makes more sense if you think about the series count of a battery pack instead of the advertised voltage. A single lithium ion cell will have a nominal voltage of 3.6v and a "Max" voltage of 4.0v (technically 4.2v, but you can extend the battery life by not charging to 100% capacity).
Thus a 10.8v (3 x 3.6v) and a 12v (3 x 4v) are the same thing, just measured differently.
As is an 18v (5 x 3.6v) and a 20v "Max" (5 x 4v).
36v and 40v are both 10 cells in series.
Etc.
> What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards.
It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools.
All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.
> Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi?
Why wouldn't that be a perfectly reasonable thing to do? The default, in fact, unless artificial lock-in was created with bullshit like this.
I want backpack battery packs for the bigger power users. Chainsaws and weed whackers and stuff in the gas engine range anyway.
For smaller tools there could sensibly be a couple to 4? perhaps sizes of battery pack, "handheld" for screwdriver to toothbrush to "personal manipulation tools", a bit bigger for handheld drills; double that again for small saws and stuff... any bigger and it begins to become an an unwieldy burden just for the battery, and the tool becomes more sensible to power in other ways.
Look at the standard AA, C, D cell sizes and what they did for the electronics market. Come up with a set of some standards and then go sell manufacturers on your package because of the profit opportunities it will offer them. Get some big battery cell manufacturer to back you, perhaps.
Husqvarna makes a backpack battery. They charge about 1300 USD for it (or the equivalent thereof in my home country [1]). They don’t recommend it (and I’m not sure it’s compatible with) their electric chainsaws, only their brush cutters, leaf blowers etc. May be a safety thing, I’m not sure. The price, however, is pretty outrageous. Their smaller batteries are already a rip-off; the backpack battery is more expensive per watt-hour than the small ones.
In my view it’s time for regulators to step in and push the tool companies towards battery compatibility, as the technology is now mature enough for standards to be viable.
[1] https://www.husqvarna.com/au/battery-equipment/bli950x-backp...
The "egopower" vendor has some good products in this vein. I suspect others are catching up or passing them, but I've been very happy with the mower we have. The blower goes through the battery faster than anything else. But I'm very very grateful not to have gas in the garage for this. Even more grateful to no longer be mixing oil into gas to get these things to work.
It’s also very occasionally handy to be able to use the leaf blower indoors, which is a non-starter if it’s gas powered.
I have an ego weed whacker and a leaf blower and I adore them. (still using a push mower but might give in some day). Not having to deal with gas is awesome. They're cleaner, they're quieter (but not quiet), and lower-maintainence. Not sure if something better came out in the last year, but as of the time I bought them, they were still pretty close to the top from my preference set.
I don't have their riding mower, but I can vouch for their push mowers. Surprisingly capable machine.
I've got a 48v ebike battery pack i'm thinking about making a backpack out of and using with my 40v ryobi tools.
> Look at the standard AA, C, D cell sizes and what they did for the electronics market.
On the flip side, look at how far we've strayed from that, with many devices only having their own proprietary battery.
They exist and so do “larger” batteries (MX Fuel) but most people find it easier to just have two batteries and swap even for things like leaf blowers, etc.
It'd be crazy expensive
Absolutely no reason for it to be. Friends & I in my hobby circle spotweld packs together for various power-tools, though I prefer putting the battery on a load bearing belt or dropleg panel over a backpack.
We have a Dyson vacuum running with like 12 molicell p42a’s in it & it’s insane. Can suck on max setting for like 20 minutes, & even then motor overheating is a larger issue than running out of battery.
Kweld & maletrics spot welders have turned making a custom Li-Ion/else pack into child’s play for the average person who’s turned a screwdriver in their life. Those two are a bit expensive, but older & clunkier spot welders can be found for extremely cheap at this point. They’re more than enough for making power tool packs for you & friends.
Vendor lock-in. If I buy a Makita drill that comes with a universal battery, I'm just as likely (all other things being equal) to buy a DeWalt or Milwaukee circular saw as another Makita. But if my drill batteries only work with Makita products, I have a big incentive to stick with that brand.
When I was younger and money was tighter, I needed a sawzall for a project and bought a DeWalt because they had a good price on a bundle. Many years later, my entire set is DeWalt because it was the convenient choice after I had two of their batteries. If I bought from scratch today I'd probably buy into Milwaukee, although the difference is small enough that I don't mind too much.
This is exactly why the “starter sets” are such good deals, they know if they get you you’re unlikely to change.
Milwaukee takes it a step further with the dual 12/18v chargers, because that would be a decision point that could make a switch - you could have all Dewalt 20V but nothing would stop you getting 12v Makita or whatever.
Makita batteries are probably what counts as the de facto universal battery format in East Asia. Lots of brands off AliExpress are compatible with each other and Makita batteries.
Also Makita is one of the few truly independent power tool companies that is not some big conglomerate. (Still a big company though)
Also unlike some other tool manufactures they still sell all the models of batteries for all the cordless tools from the late 1970's to today. They were the first company to make cordless power tools too. I just find it crazy they still sell batteries for tools getting almost 50 years old.
-edit (added a link)- These batteries are brand new and will work in a makita tool made in 1978. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/B7000-B-10
Yeah, same reason there's no universal lens mount for cameras, and lots of other examples.
There have been open and de-facto open mounts though: the Pentax K-mount was such pre-autofocus, and micro 43, Sony's E-mount (albeit with many strings attached), and the L-mount all have varying degrees of openness about them.
At the end of the day, though, camera owners don't prioritise that enough in their purchasing decisions to change the market. People were happy to lock into highly proprietary mounts when Minolta developed autofocus (and migrated to the A-mount) and then Canon followed with their EF.
I converted a Bosch hedge trimmer to DeWalt (because I have a DeWalt drill) by just bolting a DeWalt battery socket I got from AliExpress to the bottom. Obviously not elegant but I was glad it just worked with + and -; no digital crap to deal with.
Yeah, but you can use those Makita batteries to power a lawn mower, or a microwave! (I'm not joking) (specifically 18V; there's also a smaller hand drill from Makita with 12V batteries that I have too)
My take: The situation could definitely be better, but it's also pretty nice compared to the NiCD days of 20 years ago.
Caveat: I only just got in on the battery powered tools game in the past 6 months. I went corded for a long time after being burned too many times as a kid wanting to use dad's hand drill once every several months, and the batteries being dead.
More like over 40 years ago for NiCD. Makita has been making cordless tools since 1978. Funnily they still sell those batteries for those old tools today.
But yea they did just announce a micro-wave.
The question isn't why the manufacturers try to pull this garbage, but why they are allowed to.
Vendor lockin is why. These things are expensive, but they're not a pure profit center as one thinks....
Most tool batteries just wrap high quality LG Chem 18650s. I don't know the wholesale price, but since they're roughly $4-$5 at retail, lets say 8x @ $3 wholesale. Then you have electronics bom/assembly (generous $10) and casing/asembly ($2) and labor ($1) for a total of $37. Following the "Double your cost and charge that rule" = $74
I made my estimate before looking up the cost of batteries, but Ryobi (Owned by TTI, same people that make Milwaukee hilariously) falls around that price point as do others. So the prices, while seemingly ginormous, aren't as absurd as one thinks. 18650 LiOn prices are insane.
DeWalt (Owned by Stanley Black & Decker) is now creating tool batteries that use flat cells (called "Pouch Batteries"), which honestly, makes _a lot_ more sense. Square tool batteries = square batteries = more mAh per unit volume. No idea why don't use these in BE-EVs.
It's definitely vendor lockin. Sometimes the straightforward answer really is the right one.
As you said, Ryboi and Mikwaukee have the same owner, along with Ridgid [0]. They could have easily made batteries work across brands, and even added caveats to their marketing that your Milwaukee tools won't have full performance with Ryobi batteries (etc). But they didn't - because once someone buys into an ecosystem they get a strong affinity to continue buying in, rather than saving money and buying a less expensive tool that they need less. Market decommodification generally increases margins.
The main draw for the lockin, at least in my experience, is wanting a good supply of batteries to not run out in the middle of something. Whereas if I had many different color tools and one or two batteries for each color, then I'd have to be much more attentive to keeping them charged.
Personally I bought into Dewalt - the trigger on their driver felt smoother. Then Dewalt 60V - the tool I wanted had good reviews and I can use the batteries in 20V tools for longer yard work, etc. My one deviation has been the Ryobi powered PEX cincher, for which Dewalt or anybody else didn't seem to have a comparable one. I bought it as a bare tool and added a Dewalt->Ryobi battery adapter. Occasionally I'll see more Ryobi stuff at great prices and be tempted, but I ask myself if I really need it, given that it's probably "less powerful" (half marketing, half truth) and the balance would be off (due to the adapter). Meanwhile a sale on a Dewalt tool that will make my life easier feels like a no brainer, due to already having the "proper" batteries.
The main churn-gimmick I've managed to resist is buying cordless tools when corded ones suffice for the type of job. Like if I'm needing a palm sander, I'm probably working on a longer term project and it makes sense to run an extension cord, rather than needing to occasionally do a few minutes of sanding at a time. Although I admit that calculus might be different if I didn't literally have more corded power tools than I know what to do with.
[0] https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/
> ... batteries that use flat cells (called "Pouch Batteries") ...
They are but I think the more official/rigorous term is "prismatic cell".
https://www.google.com/search?q=prismatic+cell
(As opposed to cylindrical like 18650 et. al.)
And prismatic cells are used in a large majority of electric vehicles, Tesla excluded.
Mentioned in the comments, I looked into CAS a couple years back. Sounds great in theory, but it seems the vast majority of partners using it are for one off, specialty tools...
It's ironic, there's also a competing "standard" where Bosch licenses their batteries to smaller tool brands: https://www.ampshare.com/gb/en/
Yes, it's basically Metabo plus lots of specialty tools companies that don't threaten but complement Metabo with their product ranges.
If you have an angle grinder, quite a few premium/discount brand pairs become suddenly compatible with each other.
Same batteries with different plastic bits to keep them incompatible. Remove the plastic bits and suddenly your black and decker battery fits into the porter cable device no problems.
Its more than brand lock in, its market segmentation.
POWER TOOL MANUFACTURERS AND WHO REALLY OWNS THEM https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
TTI owns Milwaukee, Ridgid, Ryobi. Cant swap batteries between them despite all coming from same factory.
Stanleyblackanddecker is Craftsman, Stanley, Proto, Irwin, MAC, Bostitch, DeWalt, the list goes on and on. Its pure comedy. There are some rare cases where they share same design in different regions https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_1... but other than that they pull pranks like same injection molding with same pin shape but switched polarity!
I'm surprised the EU hasn't legislated something for this—seems like their cup of tea.
The Brussels EU big-wigs very likely don't use cordless power tools personally (unlike mobile phone chargers), so it will probably take a few more years until it reaches their radars. And then it's 50/50 if they'll do something smart or stupid about it. They will do something, though.
Edit: There's also the financial interests of german companies like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell. Imagine if they were forced to use a common battery format so that anyone could build a battery for their tools?
Had a quick look at the relative numbers.
The original, 2014, directive aimed to eliminate 51,000 tones of e-waste annually [1]. That works out to about 0.11kg per-person annually.
Currently the average EU citizen disposes of 0.74kg of "electrical tools and medical devices" annually.
So you are correct that power tools and medical devices are a much bigger source of waste.
If you are lucky enough to have an MEP represent you, do ask them why they are not addressing this also.
[1] https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-direct... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/202...
They don't want to deal with up to three companies being liable if a battery explodes or catches fire. It's not easy to legislate. EV charging is already challenging enough.
Ryobi tools have designed interchangeable "ONE+" batteries for over 20 years. Any of their 18V cordless tools from 2003 or so will have 110% compatibility (some "blue" tools show MORE power output from when they were new). Sure, this is not "universal" interchangeability. However, it's so close to what's being asked that I'm wondering why decades of interchangeability and backwards compatibility are ignored by this author. Video showing off Ryobi's backwards compatibility:
I was tickled the other day to discover that Makita also makes a coffee maker that uses their batteries. It's a nifty gimmick to get you to use Makita-branded products on the job site.
https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z
(They also offer a kettle and a cooler, and other things that are useful on a job site but not conventionally "tools".)
Down the same road Coleman makes a propane coffee maker.
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/...
From "USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 :
> What are the costs to add a USB PD module to an electronic device? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for...
> - [ ] Create an industry standard interface for charging and using [power tool,] battery packs; and adapters
From "Zero energy ready homes are coming" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 :
# USB power specs (DC)
7.5w = 1.5amp * 5volts # USB
15w = 3a * 5v # USB-C
100w = 5a * 20v # USB-C PD
240w = 5a * 48v # USB-C PD 3.1
Anything but USB-C.
Hopefully the counter-proposal doesn't involve a custom barrel jack, eh?
Standard DC power connectors are long overdue. Let me suggest a few:
* USB-C (type A and type C) (but simplify the voltage selection and change the spec so it just supplies as many amps as it can)
* 12V 5.5x2.1mm barrel connectors
* 12V car accessory outlets
* 12V battery terminals
* 19V Dell laptop power connectors
* 48V Power Poles (originally made by Anderson) in various amperages
Lithium, rechargeable batteries should also be standardized:
* Nokia 1100 prismatic cell (still used in many wireless peripherals, and could work well in almost all A/V remote controls)
* 4AH lithium prismatic cell (for most cell phones)
* 18650 (single cell)
* 2-cell 18650 pack (pick any power tool battery and use that)
* 4-cell devices should use a pair of the 2-cell 18650 packs. Black and Decker made VPX power tools that did that many years ago.
* 5-cell lithium pack (maybe 18650 cells) Pick any power tool battery that has a flat top, meaning not my beloved Ryobi and use that. Then everyone can make adapters that add 1/2" to the height of the battery.
* 40V lithium battery pack (pick any one of the electric lawnmower types that can handle a lot fo amps and use that)
* Car-scale battery packs that are about 1 cubic foot, so that many of them can power your home or automobile
You can find adapters to attach one popular brand's battery to another's on eBay. Examples in store: https://www.ebay.com/str/xtools88
I think we as a society used to be much better at standards. Companies realized the value of having standardized components and connectors.
Like, why don't we have a standard for wireless connections to a TV? We have a standard for hardwire connections (HDMI) that is pretty much universal now. But why not a wireless HDMI? Why can't we make it easy for anyone with a laptop to connect to a TV as a remote display?
Companies these days would rather make money from their proprietary connectors and equipment instead of possibly making consumer's lives a little easier and maybe even getting more customers because they are cross compatible.
Capitalism.
Let's not waste a thousand words when one will do. It's really that simple.
All these batteries are just 18/36/54 Volt configurations of 18650 cells (with a few exceptions). Some have $0.50 undercharge management chips, some don't. The difference is the mounts and pinouts and they are only distinctive to avoid interoperability.
They do this to keep you brand-loyal.
As soon as you buy a kit (eg driver, drill, battery and charger) for a knock down rate you're much more likely to buy other "bare" tools from the same range because they're compatible with the expensive battery you've just bought. It's cheaper to stay loyal. As soon as you go pro, that loyalty is magnified because you need multiple batteries ready to go. Owning and charging that redundancy across multiple platforms is a lot of overhead.
They could all use the same batteries and chargers. They choose not to.
Bosch has made a common platform (now called AMPShare?) but the buy-in is limited (mostly smaller, mostly German toolmakers) and Bosch seems to do best out of this, but it's a start.
Seems like there would be a market for a universal adapter that accepts all the different batteries and plugs into all the tools - or at least several of the major brands. Kind of like an octopus cable but with some additional straps to let you bundle the whole thing with whatever tool compactly. Probably the adapters would infringe on everyone's patents or copyright or whatever or someone would have done it.
The challenge with adapters is that different batteries communicate different things to a tool, such as internal temperature, in different ways.
You cannot just connect + to + and - to -.
What could work is a battery with a new standardized interface, and modular adapters that can match different brands' tool interfaces.
Over the years, maybe some brands might develop tools that mate directly to the universal battery.
But now there are 18V/20V Max, 24V Max, 36V/40V Max, and 54V/60V Max cordless systems. There's no practical solution for this.
Corded tools have more power and are cheaper.
Cordless is more convenient but way more expensive when you add in batteries, especially for power intensive tools like grinders.
Protip, you can order converters from pretty much any power tool battery to any other brand from Aliexpress (or from a reseller/dropshipper on Amazon/eBay).
I sold all my Ryobi stuff except for their air compressor and switched to AEG. Bought an AEG->Ryobi adapter for, I think, 10€ and it works just fine with the Ryobi compressor.
There's no universal cordless power tool battery because the primary industry (construction) just doesn't care. Guys just buy whatever brand they are locked into and do the job. One-off tools or tools where one brand is just way better tend to be both corded and ran off a generator.
While not universal if you stay within Ryobi there's good compatibility among products.
Sure, but it’s the most blatant piece of vendor lock-in since Apple.
Well but the other brands are even worse. Have you ever designed or worked with something with a battery? It's a big liability if the thing catches fire or explodes or doesn't charge up to full performance and it's not easy to design for inter-compatibility while still providing good after-customer service and remaining liable. Ryobi at least is standardized on two battery formats with I think 6 capacities among both and virtually all their products just use those except for the tiny ones that charge on a dock.
Here’s the reality. The batteries are standardized- inside. They’re all variations on the standard cell and I’ve yet to see a “cheap knockoff” battery that performs like the “professional brands”.
As Charlie Munger says “show me the incentives, and I will show you the outcome.”
There’s no question why different manufacturers use different batteries.
It's like Apple, proprietary equals money.
It's probably a patent minefield, too.
Why is there no univeral EV plug?
I'm here for the comments that try to explain how capitalism and free markets are ok even if they create monopolies
Becuase the EU hasn't had the balls to legislate this out of existence yet.
Wonder why? cough Germany
Festool can’t even use the same battery across their tools (and even at the same voltage!) so there’s no way they could handle a standardized battery heh
I wonder what kind of financial motive german manufacturers of cordless battery powered tools like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell etc could have against a standardized battery format for cordless devices...
Oh, and you know that like just like with Apple their first cry will be "but safety!" when/if they are forced to standardize/open up.
A huge swath of tool brands are owned by Stanley Black and Decker (such as dewalt and craftsman and so on) and they can’t even match batteries across their own brands.
A big part of the problem is ANY battery change even to a universal standard is a change away from your current customer base, which will annoy them.