Electrify America “fries” EVs at charging stations
teslarati.comElectrify America is getting far too much money and is using it to effectively anti-sell EVs with their janky, broken, and insecure infrastructure. Their funding comes from government subsidies and traditional automakers making reparations for emissions scandals (Volkswagen, $2B). This network is basically being built out of malicious compliance, without reasonable desires to make it good and reliable...
My mind will only change when I see new generation EA DCFC post & charger that's designed for scale, high stall reliability, and a mean-time between service to rival that of Tesla's supercharger network.
I watched a cross-country trip review of a Volkswagen EV and one of the big takeaways was that despite funding Electrify America, the experience of using their chargers, even with a Volkswagen, was terrible at the time of review. Not only were the chargers often out of service or underpowered, you had to use some app on your phone where you type in the charger ID # to turn it on, instead of the car negotiating it.
My personal experience has been bad enough to not want to use it again.
First CCS cable I plugged in was broken or something because it would keep erroring out before charging. This is after 1+ min of using their app to connect to it each time (3 tries). Switched cables and it happened again on the first try. Tried again and it says it errored out again but starts charging. Obviously that is concerning but after 5+ mins of trying to get it started, I gave in. When I get back, my phone says it’s done and a $10 charge but the charger says $16. Check the app after and it says I was charged $16. Why is there such a significant discrepancy?
It’s such a backwards experience after using a supercharger where you just plug in and walk away.
My experience is the opposite for what it is worth.
I used to own an ID.4 (which was a great car in my opinion, but I recently moved from Dallas to Detroit and, ironically, was able to go car-free in Detroit).
I made a round trip from Dallas to Denver without any Electrify America charger issues in 2021 (no waiting times either).
I also made a round trip from Dallas to Detroit in September 2022 and I only encountered one (1) slow charger where I had to move my vehicle to the next available charger (I had to wait at an already full charging station for about 30 minutes at one (1) stop also).
I was pretty surprised by both trips in terms of the lack of hassles.
Today, I have zero reservations about driving any EV over long distances.
I was worried on my first Dallas to Denver leg, but after the trip was successful, my charging/range anxiety is gone for good.
Perhaps my experience would be different elsewhere in the US, but for the Midwest, my experience had been good.
Just my two cents…
Zero?
I'm about as pro-EV as it gets and solar/wind.
Charging away from major interstates in the Midwest is very very very iffy if you aren't in a Tesla, and if you ARE in a Tesla it can get iffy if your destination doesn't have a home charger.
For US people, a 500 mile car really is where the sweet spot of convenience is becausee:
1) you're not going to charge it all the way up (unless you have LFP chemistry), so knock 5% off of it
2) you're battery will lose 10-20% range over the lifetime of the car, so we'll take off 10%
3) Winter can knock another 10-20% off of range
4) and of course since you need to plan ahead to the limited stations, you can assume you'll not want to get to the "vapors" and assume 10% is less.
5) fast charging is only to 80% anyway.
Suddenly, your 500 mile car is really a 300 mile effective range.
We really need some sort of range extending trailer or similar simple scheme.
I'm really disappointed there isn't any 50-100 mile all-electric range PHEVs ono the market. This is perfect for electrifying all my short and medium range trips, but makes the long distance a seamless experience until charging stations are up to snuff.
If the hydrogen lobby (not that I like them) had any sense they would have pushed fuel cells + 100 mile battery as an effective compact PHEV format (since IIRC fuel cells can use gasoline), that would have developed the fuel cell economies of scale, but since hydrogen and BEVs are mortal enemies, not likely to happen. I also had hopes that the "inside out rotary" patent from a few years ago or Mazda engineers would cook up a very compact rotary recharging engine, but alas that never came to be.
Toyota was the company best poised to do this format of car (arguably should have been working towards this since the Prius was introduced in 1997), but they were so ossified and fat from being at the top of the automotive industry for 40 years they sat on their hands as the entire BEV revolution passed them by. We'll see now that Toyoda is retiring...
I've done several 2000 mile road trips in a 320 mile range EV. That's a 225 mile range 10%-80%. IOW just over 3 hours. I know I can drive longer than 3 hours without stopping for food, coffee, a bathroom or sleep, but I don't wan't to.
On a short road trip you can drive for 5 hours without stopping because you recover at your destination, but on a long one it's so much nicer to stop regularly.
Adding the complexity of a range extender for trips in the 3 - 5 hour range just seems silly.
If you really want a power-dense engine, teh two stroke opposed piston opposed cylinder is an interesting option.[0]
As for range-extending trailers, Tesla cofounder J.B. Straubel had it right. The last time I linked to his "pusher trailer" the response was surprisingly close-minded for HN. The reasoning was (paraphrased) "I don't believe it because I don't trust the builder that it works because I don't believe it."[1]
[0] https://idaoffice.org/posts/rebirth-of-opposed-piston-engine...
Mazda rotary is revealed, I don't know is it small vs I3 https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42485033/mazda-mx-30-r-ev...
Really seems like perverse incentives to me... EA was created due to the VW scandal, and they were forced to spend this money this way.
Except, VW's bread and butter is still gas cars. They're not incentivized to herald EVs at all; if anything, they'd prefer it to go as slowly as possible so they can continue to make money off their gas fleet.
Right now, sure but doesn't seem to be their strategy long term. Why would they purposefully sabotage that as you're suggesting?
Whether it's purposeful or not doesn't matter. Right now Electrify America gives EV charging a bad rap. Tesla shows large scale charging networks are economically viable, and really Tesla should be pushing their network open ASAP, as you can sell fast charging at a serious premium and it would literally be free money for a network that currently is underutilized.
If I were a company still on the low side of EV volume (GM, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, etc.), I would be seriously in negotiations with Tesla to adopt NACS and join the Supercharger network, allowing our customers to avoid the debacle of CCS.
I consider any manufacturer that isn't making moves in that direction to be demonstrating an unserious attitude toward EVs. CCS is a total shambles in the United States and its headwind should cast doubt on any advertised optimism from manufacturers using CCS.
Musk promised that the Tesla network would be open to other manufacturers by the end of 2022. Nobody really knows what's going on now, and I sure hope that the late-2022 decision to open-source the NACS standard isn't what's holding progress up. Only one of these two standards is going to win: the faster we pick one the quicker we can make progress.
In this case while I prefer NACS myself, I'm worried that convincing a dozen manufacturers to switch standards is going to take much longer than just adding a second CCS connector to (many) Superchargers. Otherwise we could lose years to this, and still wind up with CCS everywhere.
Exactly this.
VW has repeatedly stated that they aim to stop producing ICEs by 2035.
This is very likely to happen considering that the EU wants to ban registrations of ICE powered cars in the same year.
That is twelve years from now. Even assuming they stick to that plan, which I feel is a naive assumption considering how often they've failed to meet EV plans previously, they can easily continue poisoning the EV waters today and for several years to come.
VW has made multi billion Euro (~20 billion until 2027) investments into EV, from a completely new vehicle platform to investing hundreds of millions into battery tech startups. There was even serious talk about buying a cobalt mine which was abandoned when battery tech got rid of cobalt.
Why would they do that if they want to sabotage it? It doesn't make any sense to that to throw it all away later on purpose.
What government subsidies is EA getting? I thought their funding was initially from VW, as reparations for the VW emissions scandal..?
Local
Is this an issue with EA or with Rivian?
I've charged a Tesla at EA a few times with a CCS adapter without issues.
Also, EVGo never seems to work.
EA. Other EV owners (Bolt) have run into the same issue at EA chargers as mentioned in the article.
Gas pumps get periodic state issued inspections. Why not EV chargers?
In Poland UDT (which among other things inspects elevators, cranes, boilers etc.) takes care of that. I've seen their test lab car parked nearby my home regularly. https://www.udt.gov.pl/przewodnik-udt-stacje-i-punkty-ladowa...
Not to be flippant, but this potentially has not happened because Tesla has demonstrated it's an unnecessary burden to building a reliable charging network. If you build a charging network intelligently (for example, by putting the user interface in the car, not the stalls) and are motivated to keep it functioning, there's no need for a regulatory agency.
Customers should be selecting vehicles that don't have to deal with the deliberate incompetence of Electrify America.
I've said this as well. It is exactly what's needed. Local Weights and Measures inspectors should be going to EV stations and giving out fines for stations that are misbehaving.
"Gas pumps get periodic state issued inspections. Why not EV chargers?"
From an infrastructure standpoint a gas pump (and related tubing, tanks, filters, nozzles, etc.) is quite a bit more complicated and fragile than a charging receptacle.
A charging station really shouldn't be much more complicated than a streetlight, minus the UI and billing components.
All of this to say:
I don't know how often electric charge stations should be inspected but I hope it would be quite a bit less often than a gas pumping station ...
You might be thinking of a level 2 AC charger which is really just an intelligent relay, but a DC fast charger is a completely different animal. It has to take 400-600VAC and convert it to variable voltage, variable amperage DC and serve it to a very temperamental load. The cables themselves are liquid cooled. Much more complicated than pumping a metered liquid.
Anything that involves dangerously high amounts of electricity and an interface with the general public should have a regular inspection interval. You will end up with dead end users if you do not.
Ensuring that the gas pump actually pumps out the amount of gas the customer is being charged for is something that shouldn't apply to EV chargers since the vehicle itself can monitor the amount of electricity it receives but there are safety issues that certainly need to be tested for and if government subsidies are being received, SLAs that should be enforced with verification.
Because it’s a regulatory Wild West right now. It’s probably assumed that chargers would be certified under electrical regulations.
Right, and the electrical regulators/inspection agencies probably assume the state DOT is in charge of inspections.
Probably part of it is that gas stations must store gas in underground tanks, which can pose an environmental hazard. Topside leaks from faulty valves, hoses, nozzles, and human error can also cause an environmental hazards.
There's also a matter of accuracy in how much fuel you receive and how much you pay for. I'm assuming it's much easier for an elective vehicle to independently verify how much of a charge they received compared to a gas car.
They wanted to saw off a charging cable??? With potential juice on both sides (grid and car with fried electronics)?
You could not pay me enough money to do that even if “switched off”
Looking forward to a teardown of an EA charger by someone familiar with power circuits. I wonder if they are shorting primary to secondary and getting 2400V AC straight into their car battery... Probably welding the plug to the car too.
The high power ones are putting DC into the car for starters.
The two extra prongs are the DC.
Conversion would generally prevent the issue you cite. They are converting three phase ac, and usually only 480v. Isolation failure would not fry the car like this because it would fault first. They are separate ac and DC cabinets with proper controls.
It may still be overvolting the DC, just not this particular way. It is much more likely the rectifier is fucked or something.
Placing 300kw (or even 150kw) of DC at like 4x the right voltage would make more than just a loud bang. It would instantly melt most insulation, for starters.
The bang is an mccb or something catching the fucked up rectifier
These cars likely got overvolt at light amperage. Otherwise lots of things would have sparked and burst into flame
Sounds like you know more about these than I do. Part of why I was curious about a tear down. I'm wondering if any corners were cut on these such as improper isolation. Naturally it could also be the car itself has a short that blew itself and the dispenser up. Maybe a rubbing wire on the car with a high resistance short that melted and bridged then tripped the MCCB temporarily disabling the charger.
Judging by the quality of automobile maintenance and manufacturing I would bet on the latter now that I think of it.
The charging stations near me are built with the AC-DC converters in one set of cabinets and the dispensers in separate cabinets. The dispensers don't seem to have any AC power available to fault into the car.
This is purely speculation because we don't have the chargers to tear down. There could be a fault in the transformer, pushing a couple kilovolts AC into the power rectifier and shorting it, then pushing it straight into the dispenser and the car. However, for all we know it's the cars that are shorting themselves and taking 400 volts at full amperage and dying before the dispenser blows a breaker. I wouldn't be surprised if the cause was a battery fault either.
This is why I would love to see a tear down. What type of battery fault prevention is in an EA charger? What kind of step down system? Do they use a battery as a buffer? Just plain curious.
No need for speculation, it's all here in the sales brochure. https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/high-power-charging Fun fact, getting 350 kW into your Lucid requires pulling from two rectifier cabinets.
What?
> CCS vehicle inlets are equipped with an electromechanically controlled locking bolt … designed to withstand high pull-out forces.
Source: https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-ccs-connectors-to-si...
Yeah, that may be why they couldn't be removed. Although, why the locking bolt didn't retract when power was lost is a bit of a mystery. Usually power is required to keep it in place. The plastic may have melted it into place though.
Probably too spendy for BigClive. Munro Live has one about the NACS (N. Am Charging Standard) announcement:
mikeselectricstuff (guy is a legend) did:
Tesla European CCS adapter teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-R49NdernY
Ubitricity EV Smart Charging cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-seqXymUT-g
Hyundai Kona EV High voltage junction box https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpigvK8v8Tg
Renault Zoe EV Battery Charger Block ( BCB ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=argrHjADn8g
Renault Zoe EV inverter ( PEB) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drS3sEsxOO8
TLDR: CSS is a shitshow
Spot Welding America
Worked in that industry for 2 years making big chargers. The electronic latch that locks the plug into the vehicle is IMHO the single stupidest (even dangerous) thing. Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded. I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car.
>Anything unexpected goes wrong and you can't unplug the cable and you are stranded
This isn't necessarily true. The EV manufacturer should have an emergency release cable somewhere.
Like the emergency door unlock on the Corvette where the guy and his dog died in the heat because he didn't know about it?
> I have no idea why any vehicle manufacturer would put this on their car.
I'm not an expert, but I'll assume that the opposite is as dangerous. I think that if you unplug a car that is charging car, by tilting the connector in the wrong way ypu might have a dangerous hazard both for the car and for the person unplugging it.
DC chargers can be quite powerful (480V/100A), so I really doubt it's a good idea do mess with them in general.
The is a signal in the connector that is designed to disconnect first to disable charging before the high current conductors disconnect. It may be a leftover from the AC charge plug though, so not sure if it's sufficient for high power DC. Still a crappy standard.
Ok, wow, another day, more bad news regarding EA?
https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/10o33jo/e...
Seems like EA are challenging EA for the worst company award.
I will never buy a Tesla, but the CCS network is pretty garbage in the U.S. right now. EA regularly has outages, their newer models (which I have not used) fry vehicles or fail in cold weather, I've only heard bad things about EVGo but never used them.
Fortunately I stick to home (Metro Boston) and haven't had any serious problems with ChargePoint stations heading up to Mount Desert Island in Maine, the farthest trips I've done.
I thought I didn't want to buy another Tesla myself, but I have encountered so many issues with other networks over many years of driving a Nissan Leaf, and seeing this reinforces Tesla's charging network supremacy. The Tesla chargers have been incredibly reliable. Just don't turn autopilot on when you are back on the road.
Tesla's "base" package for lane keeping is great (and on par with other major auto manufactures) and probably sufficient for most users. Save thousands of dollars.
for certain large segments of EV buyers, especially in US, Tesla is objectively the best EV right now.
Agreed. Last year I literally put a spreadsheet together of every single electric car approved for sale in the US, with columns for every specification I cared about. I expected to find Tesla to be overhyped, just based on the fact that it is run by a relentless hypefiend. But for what I wanted (a hatchback with fast acceleration and decent range, and big enough to accommodate a bike without taking the wheel off), the Model Y came out on top.
Sometimes specs aren't everything of course. I don't buy Sony. I don't care what the PS5's specs look like -- I'm not buying Sony. I think I might have heard one or two people feel similarly about Elon and/or Tesla. ;)
im curious whats your problem with Sony? I’ve generally loved their products ever since using the CD players
Could be the rootkit scandal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...
Rootkit. Copyright lawsuits against individuals. They welched on the warranty for my Sony Vaio laptop and wasted a ton of my time. Someone got me to buy a PS4, and I hate it and find it to be user-hostile. Basically, any time I have some experience with Sony, it is a bad experience. YMMV.
edit: can someone please tell me why ps4s have to do some lengthy time-wasting fsck-like this every time they lose power? Did no one at Sony know what journaling filesystems were?
DRM root kits back in the day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk...
Not cool owning your customer's boxes...
Especially with the recent price cuts. I was cross shopping the Model Y and the Q4 E-Tron last year. The Model Y has the range and performance advantage but was a bit costlier. This year the tables are totally flipped. Audi jacked up their EV prices and now, with the $7500 tax credit, a mid-speced Audi Q4 E-Tron is like $20k more than the Model Y. I ordered a Model Y.
That's not to mention that one can seamlessly order the Model Y and take delivery a couple months later. Obtaining pretty much any EV from a traditional dealer is still a massive PITA.
I was looking for a Mach-E when they came out and the dealers around here all told me the same thing. When they get one on the lot they'd call me, and everyone else on the list , and the first person to phyiscally get there and buy it is who it goes to. What kind of ridiculous race is that? I ordered a Model Y.
They have a pretty poor safety record with regard to Autopilot/FSD, not to mention way too many controls are behind a tablet interface that you should not look at while driving. It also implies I'm endorsing Musk and I'd be embarrassed to drive it. I'd much rather take the pain of CCS with the hope that the infrastructure bill smooths things out or grants supercharger access to CCS vehicles.
All you have to do to avoid the FSD safety issues is spend $10,000 less dollars and not get it.
Also I wouldn't count on the CEOs of Hyundai/Ford being less gross than Elon, they just tweet less, which is good.
Phantom braking doesn't require FSD.
Phantom braking doesn't require a Tesla.
https://www.motorsafety.org/us-government-investigates-1-7-m...
https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/phantom-braking-expe...
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/ok-lets-talk-phantom-braki...
In considering all of those cars (and others), considering the effect of phantom braking on the overall safety of the car would be important.
Don’t use autopilot, problem solved.
And… in any case stay engaged while driving so that you can be ready to touch the accelerator gently if it happens, to counteract it.
The purpose of autopilot is not to allow you to disengage from the responsibility to monitor the road situation.
I’m not saying I love phantom braking though. It’s gotten much better except in some beta versions.
I agree that phantom braking has "improved". The frequency of the occurrence has definitely decreased during my 2 years/18000 miles of driving my Model Y. But you have to drive with a consciousness that it can occur at any time, particularly when approaching curves or parked vehicles. Usually, an audio warning is given by the car instead -- which is a bit too frequent -- though I have not adjusted its configuration to a higher threshold.
I've used that feature on the Toyotas and the Kia I own. As another commenter pointed out, other brands have the same phantom braking issue, but for the cars I've owned, I've haven't experienced it.
The cruise control on my Kia (MY18 Optima) phantom brakes in certain situations. Typically in curves on divided highways, when you are in the left-most lane. I think it gets confused and panicky by the divider fence.
Luckily there is no OTA or other updates happening to these systems, so I quickly learned to anticipate and never get surprised by it anymore.
Gave me a big scare the first time, though!
That is true, in my opinion the cruise control on Teslas is just not usable, and for some that is a deal breaker.
Phantom braking is a real issue that I have directly experienced, autopilot is terrible, but I disagree that cruise control is unusable. I have found Tesla's cruise control (without steering), which includes car distance maintenance and braking, to be extremely reliable. It can be problematic at low speeds, but less so than traditional cruise control which does not have sensor informed braking.
My understanding is that some of the top VW group (VW / Audi / Porsche) executives can’t even visit the US for fear of being criminally charged for the dieselgate shenanigans. So add them to your list.
The safety crap with Teslas is one of my main gripes..
No haptic feedback /capacitive/ turn signals etc? wtf?
Turn signals use a stalk like any other car. Same for wipers, and much can be controlled with nice physical buttons on the steering wheel. Unless you have one of the new model S or X, in which case.. yikes
the turn signal stalk is not standard like any other car in the 3/Y. It is annoying and takes time to get used to. It is difficult to quickly switch when signaling left to signaling right (and vice versa) unlike traditional stalks. Can't speak for the other Tesla models.
ah, I had conflated the models then. That at least is good to know.
Turn signals, windshield wipers, media controls, cruise control, follow distance...all have physical controls.
Lots of other weird stuff is touch screen only, like re-aiming the A/C vents or taking the headlights off of auto-mode, but the main stuff does.
The stalk wiper control is awkward and has two modes, trigger wipers once, and trigger wipers once with fluid spray. Both modes trigger a modal on the touchscreen that allows speed control for the wipers in the late version of the software. It did not always do this. It was incredibly awkward to control the wipers when the left modal wasn't implemented. I live in a rainy climate and was very unsatisfied with the controls before the improvements.
The yolk design doesn't have stalks. Turn signals, wipers, horn, and lights are capactive touch buttons on the yolk.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-tesla-model-s-plaid-...
Can you explain what you mean by capacitive in this context?
capacitive meaning a surface that registers your touch through capacitance change caused by your skin touching the surface. Like how basically all modern touchscreen works.
Oh duh, haha thanks.
Not sure where they’re getting that from about the turn signals. They are very much physical in most current models. Except while FSD beta is activating them. I guess that’s why I completely missed their meaning.
Their safety record and ratings are actually one of the industry’s best. If you consider a car, please do your own research on this - check out actual ratings agencies reports, not news sites.
Regarding Musk - this is a weird argument. Are you endorsing oil industry then, if you are buying gas car? Or China if you are buying Polestar/Volvo ev? etc.
> this is a weird argument
Cars are personal. There are also practical concerns.
I once rented a Maserati. It was a fun ride. But most memorable was how aggressive every other sports car (and, perplexingly, truck) became on the highways.
I borrow a friend’s Tesla in the Bay Area from time to time. I’ve recently had the Maserati experience in the Tesla. Abrupt cut-offs, refused merge and turn requests, jeers. For a day-to-day car, I couldn’t be bothered with this.
You're comparing supporting a person with supporting an entire industry or country, which isn't an apt comparison.
It's more akin to buying a MyPillow or shopping at Hobby Lobby, both of which have founders with ideologies that some may choose to not support.
The crash test results are good, that is distinct from overall safety though. Tesla's own marketing along these lines usually ignores important confounding factors. Like that their cars are relatively new and expensive compared to the average of all cars.
>marketing along these lines usually ignores important confounding factors. Like that their cars are relatively new and expensive compared to the average of all cars.
To be fair, Volvo plays the same tune and HN is happy to take it at face value.
At the very least we should strive for consistency...
I have been toying with the idea of putting a "Musk Sucks" magnet on my bumper. I could remove it whenever my Tesla needed service. The tablet is my Model Y's greatest weakness, though it could be greatly improved with saner user interface design.
Which controls are behind a tablet interface that you'd need to use while driving? Have you driven a Tesla? The controls you'd need while driving (audio, climate) are on the steering wheel. You don't have to look at the tablet.
Most commonly the wipers, unless you 1) live in a place with just the right type of rain (PNW is not this place), or 2) you're okay just using the button on the stalk to manually trigger the wipers.
Then there's music. God help you if you want to use Apple Music while driving. Just don't, you'll get someone killed. Pull over first and then you can spend the time necessary to navigate the UI. No, don't say 'use voice controls' because they really are terrible for this use case. Might as well just turn off the music.
Climate control is another fairly common one. Someone wants their seat warmer on. Find the button (at least it's always on screen in a predictable location), then navigate to the tab for the back seats, then click on the graphical picture of the car however many times it takes to get the heat level you want.
And that's just the 'while driving' list.
On a positive note, the UX continues to improve, especially with the latest update.
I've only used Apple Music briefly since it just came out, but it seems similar to Spotify.
I love that the music controls are now in a dedicated mini-panel on the bottom left of the screen within immediate reach. This is far better than having to reach over to the center of the screen to skip forwards/backward (e.g. during a podcast).
You can also swipe on that same mini-panel to quickly see tire pressure and real-time energy metrics. This is an improvement over the original "swipe cards", which were clunky and undiscoverable.
For rear heated seats, that's a bit tricky from a UI standpoint. Not many vehicles have 3 heated seats in the rear, much less with 3 heating levels.
I imagine Tesla could add physical buttons for rear passengers to adjust the heated seats, e.g. next to the existing USB-C ports. I happened to come across this aftermarket upgrade [1].
At least the front heated seats are a single tap. Or they can be set to auto-mode, which works extremely well in my experience [2].
I abhor that the new music modal interferes with other more vital modals on the left side of the screen. It should at the very least be configurable. Terrible and dangerous when they conflict.
In terms of things cars typically have on the wheel/stalk, on the Tesla stalk can only invoke rinse or a quick wiper clearing -- you can't turn wipers on/off, change wiper speeds or turn on/off auto wipers from the stalk.
fog lights cannot be activated from the stalk
Also you say that climate is on the steering wheel ---- Where is that? Unless you are talking about being able to invoke the speech command, which is a bit different
Other things like defroster activation is more of an issue of tablet vs physical buttons / controls
It's a dichotomy. Independent of the charging network, Tesla definitely doesn't make the best EV. But the charging network does matter. I bought my second Tesla in spite of knowing all the random stupidity it would subject me to, because my second EV is a CCS car and I know about that pain. For my use case, reliable fast charging is worth the trade-off.
I bought a Tesla mostly for the charging network. I didn't want "Autopilot" and refuse to have the terrible controls (oe rather lack of controls) on the 3/Y, so I found a used S (2018) that suits my needs pretty well. The software is pretty bad IMO, but it never feels like I can't operate the car as a car due to those issues. I'm still glad I didn't get locked into a Google-owned Android Automotive, which I imagine will be evil at some point, or maybe even abandoned entirely.
I WAS planning to get the CCS upgrade, to diversify my charging options, but I think I'll stick with Tesla's network for now...
I'd imagine overvoltage/overcurrent protection should be on car side ? It would be interesting root cause analysis to see what caused that.
Yes, surely a relay could have prevented this. I did a little googling, and since fast chargers can deliver up to 350kW, it does appear that a breaker rated for that power could be pretty expensive and large (e.g. full panel sized, $1,000). But that’s just a wild guess. Still cheaper than a couple years of insurance payments.
I dunno but with computer power supplies and the like the protection is always in the PSU.
It's kinda weird in case of cars. The "PSU" (the device that converts current and voltage and sets the right value for charging) in case of AC charging is in the car, but for DC charging it's pretty much "car asks for that much current, charger provides".
So DC charger going haywire could damage the battery, and say DC charger putting high voltage on the control lines could also do some damage. Protecting against both is possible, just adds cost
My first thought that one side or the other is failing to follow some part of the charging standard and it's hard to tell which. Then I saw that it has happened with Rivian and Ford and Chevy vehicles, so it's pretty clearly on the charger side. Never used EA and now I suspect I never will. They're just evil or incompetent or both. I had initial issues with billing on EVgo but otherwise they've been fine, and I've never had much problem with Chargepoint (except for rarity of compatible L3). That plus L2 at home has been quite sufficient.
The reports are consistent with the EA cabs doing something that are causing the packs to blow their pyrofuses. The only thing that really makes sense is some kind of transient DC overvoltage. The problem with pyrofuses is that they are slow. They will stop some kind of catastrophic event like a battery fire, but they are too slow to prevent damage.
Having seen inside their cabinets, I wouldn't plug into one if you paid me. Building a reliable charging network is apparently only a secondary business goal of Electrify America.
Hah, yeah the EA cabinets are a bit messy inside compared to the superchargers [0]. Smells like they were rushing to get an MVP out without spending too much, probably many more COTS components in there and not as much thought put into harness routing and custom assemblies. I know EA sources chargers from multiple manufacturers; maybe some of them are better in this regard.
[0]: https://i.redd.it/electrify-america-charger-vs-tesla-superch...
This is particularly disturbing because often EA chargers are the only reliable fast chargers around for CCS, so it's not like you can just avoid them for another network on a long trip.
I’m somewhat surprised there aren’t more EV (DC) charging companies around.
There are dozens of various oil companies who have their own gas stations (subsidized by the oil industry?). Why don’t we see more electric companies building their own charging networks as well?
Non of these companies except Tesla is making money on this. Setting up the infrastructure, dealing with licensing, maintenance its a huge bother and the electronics required doesn't come cheap and is production limited.
So the reality is this is a money losing business and will be for years to come.
Electric utilities are pretty local and this only really makes sense as a large system.
The chargers are a money losing buisness, but charging an EV takes 10-30-45 minutes. Pretty surprised WaWa, 7/11, Chevron, etc. haven't blasted them to their gas stations as I assume they are a great way to get foot traffic to your store.
Gas stations are usually franchises. Gas is sold on the thinnest of margins; it's the snacks inside the store and other things that actually generate a profit, and none of that but the franchise fee for the name actually goes to the oil company.
You'd think that a fast charger would be even more valuable. You've got a captive customer for ~20 minutes, should be even easier to sell them stuff.
The problem is that it's enough time to walk to the restaurant next door rather than spending money at the gas station store.
I'm sure somebody will figure it out. Probably something like the food court model rather than current gas stations which are basically convenience stores.
Time to rediscover the drive-in restaurant. Only in 2023, it has:
1. Fast charging in every spot;
2. Espresso and high-margin dessert-in-a-cup drinks served right to your vehicle;
3. Free high-speed unlimited WiFi for customers.
Why get out of your car to walk to the restaurant next door? Connect to the free WiFi, turn on the charging, and place your order.
Then relax in your car and leave a low-effort comment on Hacker News.
Add a high-tech charging dock or a self inserting charging snake and you don't even have to get out of the car.
I believe the OP was talking about the old style drive-through where you parked and the server came to your vehicle to take your order. The order taker can plug your car in for you too.
What an "interesting" combination of high tech and low tech...
Ahh, that would be interesting to have them plug in your car for you too. Very low-tech, very practical! They are likely getting a tip anyways!
Yes, and old fogies like me can walk around such places proudly wearing our tee shirts that read: "To you, it's retro. To me, it's nostalgia."
You mean a teenager?
I wouldn't mind stopping at a Sonic drive-in for lunch & a charge...
I know “all town fresh” is doing that at one location. They own gas stations, but added electric chargers and a small kinda upscale market attached.
We stop sometimes in Plymouth mass for a 20 minute break/ charge. It’s a good idea.
Supermarkets are another decent source of charging.
> Gas is sold on the thinnest of margins
While this is basically true, it's not that terrible. A pure gas station operates on about the same profit margin as a grocery store. Both fairly thin, but both are successful businesses.
I think the profit margins suck. Especially since a lot of states have regulations about selling power without exceptions for EV chargers. Also people aren't usually willing to pay much for charging. This is why you mostly see EV chargers at hotels and shopping centers that can earn indirect revenue from attracting customers who are waiting for EV charging.
There are dozens (ChargePoint, EVgo, Volta, etc.) yet Electrify America is the one that's getting the most funding (government subsidies and automaker reparations for emissions scandals) for installations and therefore is the most visible.
They built a brand new gas station near my house, with full serve car wash and a "natural foods" cafe, along a running path around a wetlands, and I thought -- if there was ever a gas station formula that should've included a charging station too, it was something like that. But no, no charging.
While less common out west, Shell bought Greenlots which operates a network of DC charging stations in the northeast: https://greenlots.com/shell-fleet-solutions/
I wonder if there is enough demand to sell a kit to rural sites or for disaster response that hooks a charger outlet to a gas powered generator.
What is the price per kW at an EV charging station compared to what you pay for power at home? How are home owners subsidizing the EV network?
There's enormous infrastructure around DC Fast charging.
Each one of those pedestals is able to dump 30 houses of energy into a car for 30 minutes continuously. And most sites have 4-12 of those things.
It's not a minor engineering task. Add to this that commercial electric billing is often based on your 95th percentile draw over a small window of time, so if you have a station with 12 pedestals and the circuits comes to town, say 12 Electric Hummers, you could end up with an enormous bill.
Home charging, on the other hand, is basically just a baseboard electric heater per house, so not difficult to manage at all.
EA is .40/kw or $.31/kw + $4/mo membership.
Our electrical utility in the south is $.13-.17/kw
So to fill a Tesla battery from near empty to full ~80kwH is around $25.
You get 250 mileage? Seems like a draw with a diesel car
Commercial fast charging as your only fueling option is definitely not the best way to use an EV. 4 cents per kWh at 10pm is the way. Instead of a device that you monitor the tank fill status on a day to day basis, treat it like a phone that's always full when leave in the morning. The paradigm shift is refreshing in that regard.
Yes, a significant minority of people do not yet have good access to home charging yet. Yet. We'll get there.
The great thing about EV charging is you can do it almost anywhere there is electricity available. You can do it at home, a charging station, the supermarket, visiting friends or family, or at the park. I've literally hung out and asked friends to plug in while we're in the back playing cards. And when we're done the battery is topped up and its only cost me ~$2 and case of beer.
Refueling becomes less a place you have to go and more a thing you do as part of the vehicle. Like paying for parking. I think a lot of drivers have been so conditioned to needing to go to a gas station they still treat charging as going to a gas station, except to charge.
If you have at-home charging and mainly commute a huge perk is never hitting a gas station up. Getting a slower charge over night is better for your battery and better for your sanity (being able to skip the pump).
And WAAAAAAY better for your wallet.
Diesel is ~$5/gal in these parts. If you average 40mpg That's about $31/250miles. Or 19% higher than an EV. And for the unscrupulous stations charging $6/gal for diesel its 33% higher. Doesn't seem like much of a draw to me.
One often over looked aspect of EVs are their relative fragility compared to a ICE vehicle. I see it as an analog/digital divide. You can get an ICE to temporarily run with all sorts of deficits, incorrect inputs, or hacks. It will still kinda work. EVs are way more digital. If one thing in the chain breaks the bit flips to false and you're done until the tow truck comes and an expert with special, secret knowledge and tools can disassemble it and flip the bit back to true so to speak.
Yes and no. An old school ICEV, sure. But having had my pickup up and die going across an intersection due to a failed part of the fuel injection system, I don't think it's safe to say modern ICEVs are more reliable than EVs in that regard. There's lots of things to go wrong which will shut you down just as instantly as a big failure in an EV.
Concur. I just traded in a 2013 model year GMC on a new Acura after a lot of shopping. Everything is electronic on almost all new cars, even formerly mechanically simple things like gear shifts and turn signal stalks. It all feels so fragile, and I doubt my choice will last close to the ten years my last dumb hunk of American steel lasted.
It’s like Kubernetes has been applied to the auto industry… way more complexity than necessary, causing a massive loss of uptime and security.
On the other hand, I feel my leaf shares only the reliable components with an ICE car. Battery. Electric motor. Hvac and whell bearings. All the stuff I can expect to go for 5 years at a time easily on an ICE.
No heat cycling rubber parts, solvents sloshing around, measuring flow of explosive mixtures, all the finicky bits of fuel injection and transmissions.
Ever have a fuel pump or starter go out?
As someone who has literally cut and crimped fuel lines to cut off a cylinder, used JBWeld to temp seal heads and blocks, pulled injectors, disconnected spark plugs etc etc to get something to limp back home.. yep.
My main beef with EVs (and I own a Chevy Volt PHEV that I /adore/) is the fact they are rolling blackboxes. My Volt is the least shadetree mechanic friendly vehicle I have owned other than maybe my VehiCROSS I had for awhile. I know most people don't care, but it irks me. And I will not own a pure EV anytime soon for a host of reasons and that is a big part of it.
This desire manufacturers have of making their vehicles IAP Vehicle-as-a-Service (ICE and EVs) really pisses me off and I plan on driving my Volt (which has the OnStar modules entirely disabled so I have 0 analytics/metrics/tracking happening) forever. I miss my 100% analog 1981 VW Rabbit LS diesel. sniff.
You’re complaining about a car that has both ice and EV components. Of course it’s going to be a pain in the ass to work on.
No shit? I even specified that? I wasn't complaining specifically about the volt but in general with the direction everyone has/is moving.
Some dirt in charging port may increase resistance between surfaces, create more heat and even arc. Ports probably got welded together.
Every DCFC system has temperature monitoring at the port, as well as voltage monitoring on both sides of the system (port and supply). If that voltage gets too big, it should disconnect/put itself into a fault condition.
If the EA chargers are not doing this, this is a huge safety hazard.
Given the report is a 'large bang', it doesn't seem to me to be a heat-based melting issue. Seems like a sudden short or surge of power.
In my experience, both with Tesla and EA failures, that temperature monitoring at the handle may be the most common failure. Usually manifests as a 100A cap on charging speed.
My guess for the loud bang, based on when these reports first happened, is that it's the pyrofuse blowing. They're not quiet.
If the explanation were that simple, one would expect to see the same problem at all kinds of EV fast chargers, not just EA ones.
Is "Electrify America" partly or fully owned by Big Oil?
There's Shell Recharge in Europe and I've literally never seen any of their chargers working properly.
Some locations even only support paying with their RFID card that you can only get by mail. Imagine arriving at a station and surprise, you need to wait 5 working days to charge!
In The Netherlands, I have reasonable (not flawless) experiences with Shell Recharge. In Spain, I found a Shell Recharge station that didn't work with the Shell Recharge app, nor with the Shell Recharge RFID card. It wanted a credit card, which then failed.