Amazon shipped fake product, refuses refund until 'correct' item returned
cbc.caHaving spent many years in "Outbound" of Amazon Fulfillment, I'm skeptical that Amazon would ever know that they didn't send a fake item.
Items aren't inspected deeply when they arrive. Fakes can get in.
Items that are misplaced and later found are presumed to be good- no quality checks opening the package. If the barcode scans, the system just adds it.
The picker, sorter, packer all do a quick quality check to see if the box is broken. They sure aren't opening it to see what's inside.
All that's left is the weight check as the package leaves the building. The putty the scammers use weighs exactly the right amount.
The only time the item might be checked for being correct is when it's returned. And they do that because a lot of scammers buy the real item and then send back a box full of putty.
My guess? Someone didn't do a complete check on a previous return- hey, associates have to make rate or they'll be fired, corners get cut. The fake got restowed, resold, and then the second time it was returned someone did a real check.
Excellent analysis. But the issue here isn't that someone made a mistake somewhere.
But rather, that at a very high level: Amazon knows perfectly well that a certain percentage of its customers are getting screwed over, just as it knows it could probably do a lot more internally to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. But having sat down and done a "rational" cost-benefit analysis -- it has calmly decided that it plainly doesn't care, as long as it thinks it can get away with it.
That's just the way the company is - from the highest levels down.
> But rather, that at a very high level: Amazon knows perfectly well that a certain percentage of its customers are getting screwed over
Wonder if there is a way to make them (CEO, CFO, someone high) to say that on the record? No one asks such questions in investor calls I guess (haven't attended myself btw) so the only other forums appear to be legal or congressional.
If I’m the one spending $700 to buy something I should be able to demand the check every outgoing product equally rigorously too. They obviously deem it worth it when they reverse spend that amount.
Why buy something there if the odds are higher retailer is scamming you, not the other way around?
> Items aren't inspected deeply when they arrive. Fakes can get in.
I think stores like Walmart do the same thing for returns, most of the time I believe they just trust the customer, don't know what happens after though if they simply put it back in the isle if the packaging looks good.
Costco as well. I purchased a 3-pack of carbon fiber luggage that came mastroika doll'd, a small suitcase inside a medium inside a large, in a box.
Well the large bag was spotless, and the inside two were slightly scuffed with airline baggage tags still on them! Some enterprising person(s) had used Costco's generous return policy to take a trip and then return the baggage afterwards.
A thorough check, unfortunately, found no contraband or jewels left in the bags by their previous owners.
.
I've spent ~100k on Amazon and have been a Prime member since introduction. Last month, I canceled my membership and stopped using Amazon altogether. I've never had a problem returning product. But Amazon pivoted from a discount retailer to a premium retailer of convenience. In some cases, products are 3-4x the price of local retailers. I'd rather spend the money locally than pay a premium to Amazon.
>But Amazon pivoted from a discount retailer to a premium retailer of convenience.
While it's true that they don't always have the best prices on everything, that's pretty much the exact opposite of my main gripe with Amazon. They pivoted into being a shitty bazaar.
> shitty bazaar
Such a great way to put it. Amazon doesn’t care about the quality or reputation of the stuff they (through random foreign listings) sell. Unless you know ahead of time exactly what item you want, shopping on Amazon is just paying a premium to sift through the bargain bin.
If I have to buy something on Amazon I've gone out of my way to make sure I'm buying from them directly lately. Too many issues with them pulling crap like this when it's a third party seller. But by forcing them to be the seller I force them to also be subject for that transaction to my state's consumer protection act. That seems to cause them to care more because suddenly they are on the hook because they are not just the marketplace.
That doesn't protect you since Amazon commingles merchandise.
The biggest indicator missing is value. Like, 5 stars for a 30 dollar vacuum pump... if it works a few times I would give it five stars. For a 300 dollar one. It better pull the needed mmhg perfectly and work for years. There's a use case for both
That's exactly why they are my place of last resort now. There used to be a time where I bought almost everything at Amazon. These days I have very little trust that the products aren't some cheap knockoffs or already used and repackaged stuff sold as brand new and so on. I always shop at dedicated stores now...I feel this is quite bad long term for Amazon but maybe I'm wrong. My trust in the shopping experience has evaporated over the years and I've been a Prime member since the first hour it was available.
Well, 3rd party sales make more sense at scale. I typically opted for 1st party especially in the case of high-value electronics.
I would definitely argue that you have to be more careful making purchases, but the retailer is clearly labeled. My complaint is that Amazon hides 3rd party ratings multiple steps past the original product listing.
I've purchased items from Amazon since the days when they just sold books, but I've stopped doing business with them now that I can no longer trust that they will ship what I order.
They seem to be both: in different product categories, and depending on what price marketplace sellers think they can get away with.
I recently cancelled my membership when I realised that shopping elsewhere allowed me to save money the majority of the time. I had already become disillusioned by the number of dubious listings on Amazon and the volume of fake reviews.
I find it far less stressful shopping on sites with curated lists of products.
I do the opposite and buy directly from AliExpress if need some low quality low cost stuff. Good examples: cheap SATA to USB enclosures and self adhesive “leather” for keyboard repair. Or cheap LED lamps for occasional use or generic bicycle parts. All these things were 2-6x more expensive on Amazon.
Half the stuff I’ve seen on Amazon also has a month ship time. You can’t convince me they’re not straight up drop shipping from Ali express.
Once I bought a programmable outdoor water control valve from Aliexpress.
It seems Chinese taps are not really comparable with what we use in North Amrica?
I then ordered a "Orbit" from Amazon and a month later received.. the same Chinese one i got on Aliexpress???
Amazon was decent to return it right away but what the F? It was blatantly obvious they were just drop-shipping given the massive wait time.
Loads of brands are nothing more than a logo on some Chinese generic products like that. Google "best hand coffee grinders" and see how many of the 100 dollar models you can find identical matches for on eBay for 20 bucks.
Maybe the eBay ones are QC near-fails or knockoffs, but it's hard to tell without buying a bunch to inspect.
There are several videos on tiktok/etc about "hustling" and flipping stuff on Amazon, find some product on sale locally, buy, then "sell it on Amazon"
As much as I doubt it is very efficient, but it does seem efficient at bringing the brand value down (Amazon's, that is), if you turn it into a glorified eBay
I haven't found much better deals from stores than from Amazon. Maybe except for stores like Costco, but for comparing to Walmart, if I'm buying something at least $20 or so, Amazon tends to have the price around the same point.
If I compare to other stores, it depends on the deal you can find. I got lucky for getting a close out model of an AVR at Electronic Express that works perfectly.
> "I'd rather spend the money locally than pay a premium to Amazon."
I wish that could be the case with me, but I mostly order very specific items that I can't source locally (even in a large city) and need them ASAP. Amazon does that VERY well. I can order a weird camera accessory at 4pm and have it at my door at 7am the next day.
> But Amazon pivoted from a discount retailer to a premium retailer of convenience
My experience has been largely the opposite. Amazon has pivoted to selling junk that now ships more slowly.
I still buy a lot of stuff from them, but am increasingly looking to competitors who actually curate their items.
I think that Amazon shows different prices to different people, too.
Just this week Amazon shipped me a tempered with product similar to the one in the article (although $21 not almost $700). Shipped and sold on Amazon, and then rejected my review where I warned others and provided photos (actually both of the last two, negative, reviews I've tried to post got rejected).
Ordered some LEGO for Christmas. On arrival someone had opened the box, removed the LEGO, replaced it with other random LEGO pieces (to make up the weight?) and re-sealed it. This then, I suspect, got sent back out to a new customer without Amazon tracking that it was a previous return (or there is some other issue with their supply-chain).
Either way hurts confidence with Amazon, and if Amazon are going to accuse the next victim of return-fraud, that isn't ok. Amazon needs to start tracking previously returned items that get sent out again, so they can see the origin of the fraud.
That's the next thing, they outright reject negative reviews. They even share your contact info with the seller, so your review isn't anonymous at all. I got harassed via email by a seller once because I gave him a negative review. The USB hub I bought was brittle and broke after the warranty period.
In every US state there are small claims courts for precisely these issues.
Not that this necessarily helps this particular family which is in Canada. But that’s the way to deal with this kind of thing. The article appears to say that Amazon simply shrugged.
It is touching that the father says that they have been loyal customers. Like most big companies, Amazon doesn’t care about that, with their customers nor employees.
There is also a little known EU small claims court.[1] It costs 200 Euro and no lawyer to submit a case, and you get the 200 Euro back when the case is successful.
[1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
According to their user guide, this is only for cross-border claims. So if my issue was with Amazon Germany, I guess I couldn’t use it?
edit: Correct, but I found that the EU has a nice form to find the correct way to solve disputes, both national and cross-border: https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main/?event=main.home.sel...
> in any EU country except for Denmark
If any EU lawyers know, why is Denmark excluded? Have they opt-out of this?
Edit: even UK has this procedure (before their exit), so probably an explicit opt-out.
It doesn't really say why, I'd like to know as well.
> In accordance with Articles 1 and 2 of the Protocol on the position of Denmark annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty establishing the European Community, Denmark does not take part in the adoption of this Regulation and is not bound by it or subject to its application,
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
Denmark has an opt-out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(1992)
Could be. AFAIK, Denmark has several opt-outs on EU laws, just like UK had.
A lot of times (like in NL) this is only valid for cross border claims. Local claims are not allowed under this procedure.
No need to only talk about the US, this weird foreign country also has small claims courts.
https://kahanelaw.com/alberta-provincial-court-process-under...
> . . . small claims courts . . .
That is one possible way to respond.
Another useful response is getting the media to publish a story and give AMZN a little public shame. It helps pressure the company to "do the right thing."
Best of all, people don't need to choose only one!
> . . . loyal customers . . . Amazon doesn't care about that . . .
Makes for an even better bad publicity story, though, doesn't it?
Probably best to have evidence. I'd video myself opening any item for which fraud runs high.
It goes both ways. It would be very easy to fabricate an unboxing with a rock inside instead of a video card and go to small claims court.
That's why, for large items from untrustworthy retailers, I start filming the moment the delivery person rings the bell and film the entire handover process, including signing the delivery, constantly keeping the product in frame until the package is open, I've got out the product, installed it in a test setup, and it's actually working.
I ordered a GPU on ebay earlier this year, and followed this process to the letter to make sure I'd have proof if the product arrived broken.
This is crazy. If you're really doing this (and I don't have any reason not to believe you), something has gone horribly wrong as a society. If the only thing keeping people from ripping each other off on routine business transactions is (probably still fakeable) evidence gathered by filming yourself constantly like receiving a package is a reality show, then one of the parties to this transaction should not be in business anymore. The fact that it isn't speaks of deep corruption.
I bought the RX 6800XT when it had been just released and never received it. I submitted a police report, reported it to PayPal, etc, but I never got my money back.
After such a loss, I think it's normal to go to such measures. Having my partner use my videography kit to film the entire handover takes only a few minutes but if it can save me so much money, it'd be stupid not to.
And yes, I believe that if we as a society have reached a point where even with evidence and a police report no one in the chain feels responsible to act, we're fucked.
I actually do the same thing for big purchases. I’m not sure it would sway Amazon to return your money though. Would be good if you went the legal route.
That's what happens when the GPU market is coopted by the crypto crowd.
No, this is what happens when each step in the sales chain is not held accountable. The only cure for this is to demand each middleman validate and be held responsible for maintaining product integrity. Only when malefactors are identified and removed from the sales & distribution process can buyers hope not to be cheated.
The problem today is nobody is guarding the henhouse. The fox is having a field day. (Or in this case, it's Fox Books from "You've Got Mail".)
I’m in Canada, and live on a high traffic street. Not sure how it works in other countries, but here Amazon runs their own courier service called Intelcom. I can guarantee if I bought a $1000 item from Amazon, they’d dump it on my front porch without ringing the bell.
I'm all for routinely doing the diligence you can. But doing so shouldn't be a de facto requirement either. If Amazon is an "untrustworthy" retailer, so is basically everywhere. And nobody has time to wait around for a package and catch the delivery person, nor interrupt the rest of their day to immediately use the item. And it's going to gall you just as much if Amazon defrauds you over a $20 item or a $700 one.
I don't care if I lose $20, but $700 is still quite a lot of money and worth fighting over.
And honestly, every other online retailer is more trustworthy than Amazon, because they're not marketplaces, and you can actually reach humans who are allowed to make decisions. Something that Amazon is sorely lacking.
That said, it's not an "Amazon" issue, it's an issue with all marketplaces.
I'm going to care either way, because I would fight with their phone support and go through the credit card dispute process regardless of the amount, for the principle of the matter. I probably wouldn't take the $20 to small claims court though, unless I had lots of free time. Though ultimately I can understand that your getting defrauded out of $700 stings a lot more than if you were defrauded out of $20.
> because they're not marketplaces
Most online retailers are turning into marketplaces. That's the doubly unfortunate thing about Amazon's shitty business practices - everyone else sees them and feels compelled to adopt them.
Trying to name retailers that sell electronics that aren't marketplaces - B&H, Adorama, Bestbuy. Maybe Monoprice? Although they've expanded their selection so much, it feels like something dodgy is going on.
I'm actually a big fan of eBay because despite being a marketplace, they don't handle inventory themselves so the incentives line up better - they understand sellers will sometimes ship broken items, try to stonewall returns, etc. I understand the fees are a bit high for sellers. But as a buyer, being buyer-friendly is my #1 concern, and eBay understands buyers are the ones with the money.
Then again I could be one ML classification or policy change away from eBay's dispute process not being so favorable to me, too. Although I haven't had to do one in a while - most sellers have made peace with buyers' power and just offer free shipping for returns.
LOL, your delivery guy doesn't just dump everything on the doorstep as quietly as they can? Or for anything requiring a signature (actually, can't remember the last time I had that through Amazon) run up and stick the "customer wasn't home" sticker on the door without even trying the doorbell or knocking?
I have been working from home, my wife also working from home--so driveway full of cars--and on several occasions heard their truck door slam, only to find that sticker on the door.
FedEx, UPS, DHL, and all the random, local, "last mile" shippers here seem to all have a policy to not actually even try for signature-required delivery until at least the second attempt.
One time I happened to be standing in my doorway chatting to a friend when I got the call from FedEx/UPS to say they were (at that very moment) trying to get into my building but couldn't and didn't have the time to wait. While on the phone and very confused I happened to look around the street and saw the driver sitting in his van 20 meters away talking to me on his phone.
When I said this, he very sheepishly came over with my package.
otoh I'm guessing the poor guy probably didn't have time to piss while delivering > 1.5x the maximum possible number of deliverable packages in a normal working day.
And this was at least an improvement on getting the "we couldn't deliver your package because you were not home" email the day after you've waited in all day to receive it.
> otoh I'm guessing the poor guy probably didn't have time to piss while delivering > 1.5x the maximum possible number of deliverable packages in a normal working day.
He should take that up with his employer or switch jobs. Not gaslight customers. The amount of fedex deliveries where they claimed I wasn't home has been absurd lately. I have a doorbell camera, and checked. No fedex truck ever appeared all day.
Funny how different something as mundane as deliveries (and as widespread as Amazon) can be.
> your delivery guy doesn't just dump everything on the doorstep as quietly as they can?
Never had that, no.
> Or for anything requiring a signature (actually, can't remember the last time I had that through Amazon)
They email & show in 'my orders' numeric codes to give the driver who then enters and verifies them. (This verifies they actually delivered it too, since they don't know the code, just enter what you tell them.)
> run up and stick the "customer wasn't home" sticker on the door without even trying the doorbell or knocking?
You get stickers on your doors? Here in the UK (with any courier) it's a piece of paper through the letterbox that says missed/with a neighbour/in your safe place/whatever.
I suppose that's because you have mailboxes outside with little flags rather than letterboxes in doors, so they don't want to try to deliver to your door and then look for that as well when it doesn't work, easier just to stick something on the door where they already are?
> I suppose that's because you have mailboxes outside with little flags rather than letterboxes in doors
That's mostly only rural areas. Where I am, the houses either have letter slots in the door as you described, or a letter box attached to the house next to the front door.
Our previous place had a letter slot. But the place we just moved into has put the letter box next to the side door, at the end of the driveway. It's hit-or-miss where deliveries will get left, but most of the time it's at the front door, the one we don't check on a regular basis because we're usually going out the side door to get to our cars.
I'm in Germany, so I've never had trouble with the delivery people just leaving packages or telling me that they couldn't deliver them. If I don't get a package on the announced date, I'll usually just get it the next day.
You are worried that an Amazon lawyer is going to contest your evidence in small claims court.
You probably don’t need to be concerned: they’re unlikely to show, so you’ll just get summary judgement.
Canada has the same system (provincial level small claims courts).
This took place in Alberta so - https://albertacourts.ca/pc/areas-of-law/civil/claims
Some of Amazon's policies are real head scratchers. Last year I bought a high end ultrawide monitor from them. I believe I paid about $1500 for it originally. Two or three days after it arrived, it went on sale for about $300 less. IME most companies have a policy in the fine print where if an item goes on sale less than a week after purchase they'll refund the difference, if you ask. So I contact Amazon support. The agent insisted that no refund was possible but that I should return the monitor for a refund and order a new one at the lower price. It boggled my mind so much that I asked them explicitly if they understand that they'd be paying for return shipping (at least $50 given the size and weight of the monitor), they'd be getting back an open box item that would lose probably 20-30% of its value, and I'd get back the $300. They said yeah, that was just how the system worked...
FWIW I've been told similar by Costco too, so Amazon isn't unique in this respect. My guess is that it adds some friction to the process. Refunding money is a purely digital activity, while refunding requires to you go and ship it, wait for the new item to arrive, etc, so you won't do it unless the savings are worth the time investment.
I suspect this is the case, but IMHO the practice should be illegal. If you accept returns for the purpose of price reduction you should just do the price reduction directly, both for the sake of the environmental cost and as a matter of treating consumers decently.
I used to go to a local brick and mortar store and checkout a product and order it from Amazon. These days I go to a store and go to Amazon to check reviews and then buy it from the store. How tables have turned for Amazon.
> These days I go to a store and go to Amazon to check reviews and then buy it from the store.
Why? Where I live Amazon has way better availability of products. The local stores might have a single model of anything I want while Amazon has dozens. If I'm looking for the best product that matches my requirements, I never check local stores because it's always a disappointment.
Maybe if it's a recurring purchase and the local store has a decent price (it doesn't need to be extremely better), I'll switch to buying from them. But that's rare.
> while Amazon has dozens
They have dozens of low quality knock offs. If that's what you're looking for just buy direct from from ali or banngood.
Most stores can get me what I need within a day or two. Either by pickup from the store or last-mile shipping to my door.
It's sufficient for most things.
And some of them will even do price matching.
well if I don't find what I want in the store I go for Amazon. Also where I live, lately Amazon has some logistics problems like delayed delivery, lost/stolen packages, delivery to wrong address etc. last week a delivery guy was going around our neighborhood in the early morning hours in dark with a flash light. someone literally called a cop on him :-)
I cancelled my membership a few weeks ago. It’s even more annoying now. So many ads. So many new steps where it asks you to upgrade.
I tried to use it and everything idles for a week before shipping so I’ll probably stop buying even the basics from Amazon.
And something I’ve discovered: many many other stores have caught right up. Buying from Walmart or Canadian Tire or Home Depot is just as easy.
I’m so glad that blacklisting Amazon isn’t actually a sacrifice I thought it might be. Tells me that competition is still somewhat healthy.
Looking at the video, this is a fake, 3d printed PCB
This might be OP, or someone got the same exact fake card.
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1435830-did-i-receive-a-fake...
I strongly suspect prioritized handling or some other points-based system that classifies customers and the quality of care they 'deserve'.
I've had 1 or 2 issues before (things late, wrong things etc) and all of them were handled nearly instantly and pleasantly, where I got the benefit of the doubt and left deeply satisfied.
Fast-forward to a week or so ago. I had a shipment coming in, paid extra for 2-day delivery. It was late, but I really needed it by a certain date because I was traveling after. First rep I got said they'd pull some strings to get it routed earlier, offered some refunded shipping etc. Awesome service like I was used to.
I looked later and the updated shipping wasn't shown, so I wasn't sure it went through. So I contacted again the next day and got... slightly less good service. They actually said the rerouting might happen, and maybe I could get a pickup, but to check again the next day if it moved. I contacted them a third time the next day and this was the worst service I had ever gotten. The rep said there was nothing to be done... no discount for inconvenience, no expedited shipping, no early pickup options, literally nothing. They actually even kept the chat open after we were done talking so I couldn't leave negative feedback. I was floored. After years of amazing service I couldn't believe it... it didn't even feel like the same company.
In the end, it did come early (looks like the first rep did what they promised, just took a while to show up) but in the meantime, contacting them several times about the same issue downgraded me to "not worth helping" customer status.
I've noticed (like others mentioned) that the quality of goods available on Amazon has downgraded significantly recently, so I suspect that means more people contact more frequently with issues.
Rather than interpreting it as a quality-of-goods problem, I suspect they've interpreted it as a quality-of-customer problem; that is, they've decided more and more customers have downgraded themselves from "generally good customer we should keep happy" to "customer who will complain about anything -- not worth keeping happy".
Let's hope they fix their algorithm.
Don’t ever buy any high end electronics from Amazon. The counterfeit issues are rampant, and for the high end stuff they won’t take the fake back.
Where am I supposed to buy electronics online? I live 2 hours away from the nearest Microcenter, and newegg is also a nogo.
I have had great experiences with B&H photo - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/
I like B&H, purchased a lot of stuff there and will continue to in the future, one note is that they're a New York-based company and everything ships from there. So if you're on the East Coast: Great! Whereas if you're on the West Coast you'll wait 2-3 more days.
That and the website used to not let you even PLACE an order during Saturdays and some other Jewish holidays. I understand not working during those, but not letting an automated system write an order to a database somewhere, was odd.
B&H is excellent. I also tend to go directly to manufacturer sites. They may actually use Amazon for fulfillment, but you can be assured that the product you get, is real.
I generally don't go for extremely reduced prices. I find that it is way too easy for scammers to take advantage of us, not paying too much attention to something we get at a good price.
Every. Single. Time. that I've gotten a "great deal" on something, it has turned out to be fake.
I have a pair of "Nike" shoes at home, that I got from Amazon, and are obvious counterfeits. I still have the original Pegasus 30 shoes, that I got at a local store, over ten years ago, and they are fine. The soles got flat, which was why I wanted to get new ones, but the shoes still work fine, and the padding is still good.
The "Nikes" that I brought from Amazon, a few years ago, crapped out, after just three or four months. They actually cracked, and I tried out a couple of other types of sneakers, over the last few years.
Nike has discontinued the Pegasus 30s, so I switched to New Balance sneakers, and I got these directly from the NB web site.
This is where I try to buy most of my electronic equipment now. The shipping is quite fast to my location (faster than Amazon Prime) and the prices are usually pretty competitive.
That question seems absolutely alien to me. Surely you have alternatives in the US, don't you? Here in Germany I visit Geizhals, search for the product in question, sort by price and order from one of the countless shops that have the product in stock.
Maybe I'll end up on Amazon, maybe not - they all can deliver quite fast and they all have to adhere to european minium return policy standards. So the handling of returns isn't something most customers ever have to think about.
Just to give an example here's the price comparison for a current AMD CPU: https://geizhals.de/amd-ryzen-7-7700x-100-100000591wof-a2801...
Don't you have anything similar over there?
If we do, I have never experienced something that works and is useful, but just by using PCPartPicker to see shops to buy electronics my choices are Best Buy, Amazon, Newegg, B&H, Gamestop, and three other companies I have never heard of. The thing about that is I don't have europeaan minimum return policy standards, so any website I don't know about can rip me off and I cannot do anything about it.
I also live in a pretty remote area, so I have to drive 45 minutes to 2 hours to be in any big box store.
Microcenter will ship items purchased online. You have to select "Shippable Items" from the "Your Store" drop-down in the center at the top of the page.
Microcenter will not ship most items online. I just did a random check and there are 0 graphic cards available to be shipped online. In comparison my local Microcenter offers 63 models of graphics cards in stock today.
I use Best Buy for commodity stuff (cables, sd cards, etc) and B&H for more "important" stuff (PC components, monitors, etc) because they have a wider selection and I like their website better for comparison shopping.
B&H is the "new Newegg" for me, since Newegg decided to jump into the flea market business after Amazon.
Microcenter does sell/ship a good chunk of their inventory online so it's an option for people that aren't close to a location. I usually make the trek to my nearest one precisely because I can avoid the issue of counterfeits by shopping there.
That's such a weird question lol, there is more online stores then Amazon and Newegg? There is hundreds. Just go buy it from literally anyone else besides Amazon if you give me your state I can probably tell you a list of about 100 that will ship there.
And because I haven't heard of them, I'm taking as much of a risk as I am with Amazon and Newegg. The best part about hacker news is asking a genuine question often receives a genuine response, and it seems like "hundreds" boils down to separate people saying B&H.
I already use parts express for my audio equipment and probably always will because their customer service is incredible, but I rarely buy pc parts anymore. I want to do a new build in the coming year and having this conversation saves me the future research.
It's not a weird question. He wants to know one that is reputable (so do I), not just another random one that might have the same problem.
In the UK; Argos.
Probably the last company you'd think of, but they have excellent service and return policy and you can trust them to be selling real stuff.
Not to mention the fact they're one of the only places that will sell you unlocked phones.
An iPhone, two iPads, a pixel 6 and an rtx3060 all ordered from them within the last 2 years.
why is newegg a no go?
Newegg has done (will do) this exact same thing. One of the recent vibrant examples was with a motherboard and some Youtube personality.
Basically, most businesses have outsourced doing QA as "free returns" where the customer is the ultimate judge. This only works as long as they're willing to get stuck with some of the losses from return fraud. But as they try to cost optimize and assume the incoming checkers are foolproof, they end up blaming unlucky customers in the most hostile manner.
Don't buy anything involving electricity or that you put on or in your body. At least this fake video card didn't burn down their house, unlike other Amazon-sold counterfeit products they also try to wash their hands of liability for.
FTFY: s/Amazon/e-commerce marketplaces/g
(the marketplace model fundamentally fails for high end good that are easily faked and hard to verify... insurance (and self-insurance) can help somewhat but ultimately the math leads to "buyer beware"... e.g. eBay, etsy, etc. For this reason, we're seeing the rise of "hand verified" e-commerce for high end categories like collectible sneakers)
At the start of the article it cites Amazon’s “declining profits,” but later it says Amazon’s $386 billion a year in profits is growing at a slowing pace and might start growing by less than 20% year over year. What hardship.
I think by "declining profits" they are referencing a specific line of business, not "Amazon" proper.
Look at Alexa as an example.. It has racked up substantial losses yet "Amazon" is profitable.
I've often heard that Amazon's retail devision isn't a big money maker?
I think people are seeing actions Amazon is taking to shore-up its retail side (less generous return policy, their "Free for all " market place, commingling inventory..).
They've mistaken net sales for profit. If Amazon had a profit of $386bn last year, I'd expected their market cap to be more then $960bn.
It's a misnomer. Amazon has declining profit _growth_. Meaning our profit grew less last year less than it grew the year before.
But make no mistake, it's still record profit after record profit each year.
But I guess having this year's record profit be only slightly larger than last year's record profit means we need layoffs.
Just remember, for companies less profit growth is equivalent with less profit
Comingled inventory FTW! As a vendor, Why send in the real product to FBA when i can send a fake one and get paid the same amount? It even lets me undercut on price!
Or stolen products.
Where do you think all those organized shoplifters sell their inventory of stolen perfumes and deodorant?
Amazon!
Great point. If only there were a huge tech company willing to hand over shady vendors the way it hands over video footage from customer cameras
I've recorded every Amazon unboxing (including a full recording around every angle of the unopened shipping box) I've done for every large ($100+) purchase I made with Amazon for years when I first heard claims like this arise, and it actually proved fruitful when Amazon shipped me a counterfeit 2080 Super mid pandemic. They refused to believe me until I sent an unlisted YouTube link of the unboxing.
I don't have prime anymore. Why would I?
They shipped me an LED bulb... in a padded envelope
It was absolutely destroyed in shipment. They accepted the return, but what a waste of my time, and now I can't trust anything remotely fragile to be shipped successfully from them.
Wow this is still happening? I actually wrote about a similar phenomenon of replacing iPhones with clay back in 2016 and apparently Amazon still hasn't figured out a way to stop this.
This poor customer is actually paying the price of a scam played by someone earlier. You buy an expensive product, Amazon ships it noting the weight, then you replace the product with clay and "return" it back to Amazon who is none the wiser.
Then when this customer cries foul, Amazon has no way of knowing for certain whether this customer is the scammer, or whether it was a prior individual! So many crazy downstream implications of their "free" return policy, and of course it's usually the customer that foots the bill in the end.
[0] http://coryklein.com/2016/06/20/scammers-replacing-iphones-w...
Just FYI if this happens to you email jeff@amazon.com and it gets sorted in a few weeks. Happened to my despite being a long time customer with over £20k orders.
1% of people who do that get it addressed, and tell everyone else it works. 99% of people never get the slightest response. Same for any other "email the CEO" address.
“He threatened to sue for $10,000 and received a full refund the next day” from the article about someone else dealing with Amazon.
I had to email ‘Jeff’ and threaten to sue Amazon as well, sent them an email with a mountain of evidence showing that I was obviously correct and explained that I would easily win at small claims court. I got my money back the next day with no further communication at all.
I bought a fake camera lens and Amazon refused a refund. I charged it back and that was that.
Recently cancelled my prime membership. Not a huge expense in the grand scheme of things but I could no longer justify the cost for only expedited shipping. Have also tried to cut back on my spending on amazon with sheer amount of crap that gets sold on the platform at elevated prices. Definetly had me thinking about my own level of consumerism and realizing there was just no need for that level of Amazon in my life.
Not sure how many others have gone through that thought process or if the average consumer thinks about it even. With most stores offer instore/curbside pickup I wonder if it will eventually eat into any of Amazon's marketshare.
I completely believe that story.
Amazon seems to be "leaning into" being a souk for counterfeit and scam merchandisers. They make a lot of money from it, and it appears as if they have not received enough brand damage to stop it.
I've had a couple of issues with receiving fake (or gray market) stuff from them, to the point, where I no longer go to Amazon for many purchases, and, instead, go directly to the manufacturer's sites (they may route me through their own Amazon store, though). I don't really care, if I spend a bit more. At least, I'll get what I paid for.
I had something similar happen to me in Germany. A FireTV stick LAN cable adapter, which didn't work. I returned both the Ftv stick and the adapter in the same package. The stick was marked as received, the adapter wasn't. I wrote then 4 times. No response. The 5th time I wrote an angry mail threatening to go to the police. Literally the next day I received an apology email that it was a mistake on their end. At least it was resolved. But the nerves it cost me... no compensation for that. I don't appreciate being called a fraud.
I use this fancy 3M “Velcro” called Dual Lock a lot. It’s expensive but awesome. I order it from 3M on Amazon. In 2020 about half of the time it was counterfeit. The adhesive was slimy, stank, and would fuck up anything you put it on. The packaging varied widely. I never tried to return it, I just kind of collected them.
Now that I think about it, the same thing happened to me with some modular dewalt storage bins. The yellow dewalt logos are a different color on two of them and they are a little off in fit spec.
What a fascinating problem.
A few months back I ordered an Xbox Series X from Amazon but a large box arrived with nothing but some plastic picnic forks in it. Luckily I managed to get the driver to pose for a selfie with the box showing there was no Xbox. In this case I think they had sold out and decided to ship "something" instead of cancel the order as they didn't even ask for photo proof that the box was empty.
This happened to me. Bought AirPods Pro a couple of months back for £250. I received a cheap garbage speaker worth ~£10. I spent ridiculous amount of stress and time trying to get it sorted with Amazon to no avail. Amazon kept telling me to return the AirPods I never received. It was the fourth Apple product I bought from Amazon in twelve months yet they still refused to help me after they had delivered me the wrong item.
It is happening to so many people at the moment in the UK so stay away from Amazon. See here:
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23150437.uea-students-macbook-a...
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-ordered-569-i...
I’m never using them again after this experience. It has been an absolute nightmare. Joke of a company.
I had a very similar experience except it was a 1st gen MS surface book packaged in a 2nd box. They look nearly identical. Spent months getting gaslighted by Amazon support. My coworker who'd previously worked at Amazon Fulfillment suggested I email jeff@amazon.com directly. The case was picked up by a higher-level CS rep and they reversed the charges. No apology or concessions for the horrible experience otherwise. I truly hate this company.
Happened to me - was buying a warehouse deal used Apple TV 4k, have gotten an old "normal" HD version instead. After sending it back, they said its an old version and recycled it. Had no chance to get my money back nor the apple tv back.
I put Amazon on my eternal shit list a very long time ago, when they only sold books.
The reason for this was their bait and witch regarding their privacy policy and since then I have never bought anything from them.
This decision seems to be better by the day.
Ebay is not better. I was in Spain and our servers were in a datacenter in the States. One of the HDDs in RAID1 failed, and the array was in the critical state on our master DB. It was critical correcting this failure as soon as possible. I ordered a new HDD from ebay from a seller with 100% positive feedback directly to the datacenter and organized remote hands there to install it. When RAID rebuilt, smartctl showed that the HDD has more than 40k powered on hours. I am afraid the days if high trust society, where services like ebay could function, are over.
One of the best things about Amazon has always been their returns. They shipped me a faulty GPU (actually I suspect it might have broken when the delivery guy slammed the box down after refusing my help carrying it up the stairs when I saw him struggling)
It wasn’t broken in an obvious way but when it maxed out the PC would just freeze every single time. Asked for a return handed it over to a random shop drop off point and they refunded $1000 right away before the item even went back.
I accidentlly bought the wrong thing the other day. It was in my cart and amazon removed it as it was no longer available from the seller and 'recommended' something else, same price, very similiar name.
When it arrived i realized what had taken place and tried to return it. Amazon charged me $20 for return shipping.
It was my mistake, exacerbated by amazon removing the item from my cart and offering a similar named item. I've used amazon for many years and only returned like 3 things in 10+ years and amazon always supplied a return shipping label.
Now they charge for it?
Adding insult to injury I ordered a replacement on Nov 24 and it wont get here until Dec 6 (originally Dec 12).
I could and should have just went to the local store, gotten the correct product which they have in stock for the same price and saved myself $20 and 2 weeks??
This reminds me of the kerfuffle with Linus Media Group's reluctance to provide written warranties on their products.
Without a clear contract regarding warranties, returns, etc., the buyer is subject to the whims of the seller.
(Modulo any consumer protection laws that weren't waived during sign up.)
You can sort of sit on the sidelines and watch the decline of Amazon.
I did return something long ago when amazon would return your money before they got the item back. This is what got people to use amazon, amazing customer service.
This is no longer the case and what Amazon fails to grasp is aliexpress is raising quickly.
Amazon is flooded with drop-shipping from ali as it is now, why not just use Ali directly?
Based on this experience my willingness to use Amazon again is greatly reduced.
Maybe another Kindle in the future, but these are "loss leaders" for Amazon.
I think who pays for the return depends on what you choose for the reason for the return. If you acknowledge fault they charge you, etc.
I thought the same thing and tried every option.
I dont use amazon much these days and rarely return things but there was clearly a policy change at some point:
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=G...
"Unless your item is eligible for Free Returns, if you return an item using the return label from Your Orders, and the reason for return is not a result of an Amazon.ca error, we'll deduct the cost of return shipping from your refund. "
I suspect the varied experiences with returns in child comments is due to Amazon's use of algorithms that scan your purchase history and behavior. It's doubtful Amazon has blanket policies for returns or other customer support issues when they have such detailed stats on how 'good' a customer you are.
> $1000 right away before the item even went back.
They don’t do this anymore. I recently bought a hard drive and found the anti static bag was opened. When I returned it Amazon made it clear I would not get a refund until it was back at the warehouse. I dropped it at a Whole Foods return desk and got my refund days later.
Disappointing, the attitude they used to have is one of the reasons why I'd buy all tech products I could through them.
If they're going to be fussy about it then I'd seriously consider elsewhere as I doubt their customer service is personal enough that it could resolve many issues.
I suspect it's product category dependent. I returned a glorified car battery charger last week and got the $$ minutes after UPS scanned it in.
Electronics + "product wasn't sealed" claim -> red flags for counterfeit washing.
>> the delivery guy slammed the box down after refusing my help carrying it up the stairs when I saw him struggling
Seems like a very heavy GPU, GeForce 4090 RTX, I suppose?
I can see how the shitshow commenced though. Instead of contacting Amazon via chat and providing a few photos to document the process the family did a regular return which off was in turn picked up as fraudulent.. No one's fault in particular but annoying situation for sure!!
Reality for me has always been that Amazon is rather flawless on return policy (in the UK anyway!)
When you're making a return, Amazon has a field that allows you to say that the product delivered does not match the purchase (the wording is not quite that, and they have a few variants). I don't feel like there's a need for a chat if the form already allows me to say that and do not require sending any pictures. They could follow up if they felt the need, before issuing the return code.
Amazon has a bad process for these cases and seems not interested in fixing it.
Yeah. The automated return process is going to try to force you to mail things back. If you can force your way through their byzantine process that hides trying to get to a human behind a chatbot, you can eventually make your way to the proper humans that will actually issue a refund.
Worst off you email jeff@ or jassy@ and some executive assistant eventually picks it up.
Anything that I buy from a Facebook group or something similar over $x, I set up a camera and record myself opening the product. Anything that I sell over $x, I record evidence of packing and shipping. I don't really have a set value for x, but it's definitely under $690. That might not have made a difference with Amazon, but it can't hurt.
At least this time they didn't suffer any injuries because of it :
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/lawsuit-amazon-s...
Unrelated, but does anyone know someone in Amazon? I was searching for something and ended up finding many firearm accessories very clearly intentionally mislabeled, and at suspiciously low prices (less than 1/5 of retail price at a normal gun store) that they're either of dubious and unsafe quality, or stolen.
I like to record a video when I am opening parcels that a contain a valuable product to try to avoid these kind of discussions. Worked once with Amazon
I bought an iPhone 14 a while back and they 'lost' the first two times. Third attempt it finally arrived but they appeared to use a different delivery service
Amazon did the same thing to me recently. They shipped me the wrong socks, and are refusing the refund the money unless I send back the ones they sent me, despite the fact that it's blatantly illegal in the U.S. for a company to force you to return something mailed to you that you didn't order.
If you placed the order, and the wrong item was sent to fulfill your order, you can be required to return it. That's not an unsolicited package.
In the U.S., it is illegal for a retailer to send an unsolicited item and demand payment. This is not that case; you requested an item, they just sent the wrong one.
https://legalbeagle.com/13357033-law-regarding-receiving-a-s...
So to push this to absurd dimensions, if Amazon sent you a Tesla instead of a paper clip due to some erroneous internal process, you could keep the Tesla and still demand Amazon send you the paper clip?
I doubt you are correct that you don't have to return it. If the item was sent to you by mistake then the law requires you to return it under the legal theory of unjust enrichment. You can only keep it if the unsolicited item was sent to you intentionally.
Here's a link for the U.S. state of Georgia but I would expect it to be the same in any state:
"When you receive promotional merchandise that you did not order, you have the right to keep it as a free gift. ..It is a different matter if the mailing you received was due to a mistake by the company. In these circumstances, Georgia law regarding “unjust enrichment” obligates you to return the item paid for by another customer. The company, however, will have to pay postage and handling or make arrangements to pick it up."
https://consumer.georgia.gov/consumer-topics/unordered-merch...
Out of curiosity, can you describe how that happened? I always get refunds from them as soon as items are shipped back, before amz actually receive them.
Well, this person is saying they do not want to return back received wrong item as it is not their mistake and want the correct product be shipped. So quite clearly different case from you.
My bad. I misread their post but honestly wouldn’t have imagined myself trying to keep both the item and the money
A friend of mine recently ordered a Chromebook which was on sale during the black friday week. Some days later, he gets a message from Amazon that the computer got "lost in the mail", but they refuse to send him a new device for the same price.
Did he get money back at least? If not, you'd be surprised "small claims" can be up to $25k in some states.
I believe he did.
Amazon Prime has become a prime (haha) example of how capitalism is failing. It's not the best price, it's not faster anymore, it's not good quality and you can't trust anybody.
Amazon is being flooded with the cheapest of the cheapest stuff from China and alike. Either with ripoffs of well-known products or just 25 items which look the same but are from different "brands". Finding "good stuff" for a topic you don't know about is getting harder and harder.
Those items also aren't cheap though, I've found better quality items at a local store for nearly the same price. Lazyness just made me buy it quickly on Amazon, because I thought it was the easiest (as in "cheapest + fastest") way.
You also don't whether those items are good after all. Reviews are 50/50 mixed with people who were paid by the manufacturer for a positive review or by competitors who want to make a product look bad. My personal favorite for the last time probably was a "is this any good?" question where somebody responded with "I've made you a quick video" and posted a hiqh quality, advertisement video. These reviews and answers are so blatantly fake but there's no way to report them. Amazon doesn't care after all, too. So, the trust is gone.
Ok, but we'll receive the items quick and be able to judge them by ourselves then? No. Prime regularly takes 3-5 working days for me now. I don't know what thei problems is, but does anybody remember the times when you received a month of Prime for free if your item was not delivered on time? That's long gone.
Prime, at this point, is just "free shipping", nothing more.
Could you explain why this is an example of capitalism failing and not just an example of a business (Amazon retail) starting to fail?
If Amazon is not "peak-capitalism" through and through, what else is? If they don't get these things right, who can, who will?
Another, more efficient, business. Plenty of other extremely large businesses have failed in the past and been usurped.
I had a similar experience ordering the original Xbox Elite controller. In the case was a very beaten up standard controller someone must have returned in its place. I reported it and thankfully they took it back without issue.
Something similar happened to me in 2000 on eBay. I was 16. Entering college and bought a desktop computer from eBay. I got a case with nothing inside. eBay didn’t do anything to help. Never shopped with them since.
Question, how could Amazon protect itself from customers buying and receiving a real GPU and sending back a fake one?
1) By banning commingling and otherwise making sure that they are not shipping out fakes to begin with.
2) by checking returns before reselling them.
Easy-peasy.
Curious what a credit card chargeback would accomplish, I have had mixed results with that
Wouldn't Amazon just cancel your account?
Power to the corporations.
I remember buying a Google Nexus phone way back, having it delivered to my home. Only to find an empty box, someone had stolen it in transit.
All I did was report the theft to the police so I got a case number, then sent the case number to the vendor and a new phone was in my hands within a week. That's how socialist sweden works.
Was it sold by Amazon or a third party? The only times I had issues with returns was with third parties
Doesn't matter. Amazon commingles the inventory so you might get a fraudulent product from a third-party seller even if you buy from Amazon itself.
Always buy electronics from a reputable retailer like B&H Photo or Target. Amazon or NewEgg are not trustworthy.
Sure, you might get a fraudulent product either way. But that's not the problem here. The problem here is that they couldn't return the product and get their money back. And the scam itself caused that situation.
That has everything to do with whether it was Amazon themselves denying the return, or the seller themselves.
I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. Returns for Amazon-fulfilled items have been awesome for me, even when it's something like this where they sent the wrong product or even no product. I once received an empty bag. No problem, they refunded me and I bought another.
When dealing with things shipped directly from the seller, you're going to have to deal with them directly for returns. I almost never buy like this because I like having Amazon's return policy to fall back on. If they start denying me, I'll definitely start looking for another store to buy from that has a better policy.
I’m not sure, perhaps my post was too empty, I had just woken up when I posted. I couldn’t find the distinction in the article, but returning to third parties is never so easy. Understandably so, though. A smaller business doesn’t want to be scammed either. I had a friend try Amazon after selling on his site and eBay for a long time and he lost thousands to returns that had been damaged during install or just returned a rock.
At least in Europe, buying from Amazon directly is no guarantee for getting what you paid for. You can find numerous reports online of people who purchased expensive electronics items from Amazon directly and received cheap garbage of approximately the same weight. People had to go to great lengths to get their money back from Amazon.
Source (German): https://www.mydealz.de/diskussion/betrug-bei-amazon-2012851
I am not a lawyer but in the USA at least, if I understand correctly, if someone sends you something didn't request it's yours to keep for free
https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/business-gui...
Search for "unordered merchandise" on that page. Also see "Substitutions"
As I said, I am not a lawyer, but I've always took that to mean if I order X and receive Y then I received Y for free. The company that sent me Y still owes me X and I have zero obligation to return Y. I never asked for Y, it's unordered merchandise.
So, if I ordered a PS5 and the send me a PS4 I get to keep the PS4, they still owe me a PS5. I ordered a 256gig iPhone and they send me a 128gig iPhone they still owe me a 256gig iPhone and the 128gig iPhone is mine to keep.
Now of course if I don't return the item, at their expense, they may refuse to do business with me in the future but at least as far as I can tell the wrong item is not what I ordered, therefore it is an unordered item. They still have the obligation to provide the item ordered or refund the money, and I have zero obligaton to return the unordered item.
The point of that law is to shut down scams where companies send you stuff without you ording anything (or, in most cases, ever having heard from them) and then demand payment.
I am also not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure it does not apply when you do order something and there is just a mistake about the details.
How do you know it was a mistake? The same incentives apply. They might be sending you the wrong thing on purpose, hoping you won't notice, so the law is there to prevent that.
Here's a post from the legal advice reddit suggesting your understanding of the law is so off point that a person can be charged with larceny for listening to you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/68phvf/comment...