Friendship Forever
secretorum.lifeThe part about remote work removing a driving force for friendships hit me pretty hard. In February of 2020, I had a dozen or so really close friends that I would see every day. We would laugh together, get food together, and work on hard problems together.
In March of 2020, we all started working remotely and I haven't seen any of them since. Even if I wanted to, almost all of them have moved to other cities, states, or countries. Most left the company we were at (including me). We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have.
Now, I work with a team of people who are completely scattered geographically. Maybe once every few months I will see one of them in person if they happen to be in the area. They feel like strictly co-workers- I don't think we've ever really laughed or just goofed around that much, and certainly aren't hanging out outside of work hours. I wouldn't be able to call one of them up in a time of crisis and ask for help.
I miss my friends, and the simple solution would be "go find new ones!" but, like this essay points out, that's not exactly easy and there's a "blind spot" about how hard it can be. There's also still a pandemic going on- I haven't caught COVID-19 yet and don't plan on it. Any sort of friendship that would involve physically being near other people on a regular basis is just asking for it. To me, getting sick is not worth having a friend, even though it is wrecking my mental health. I know that equation is different for other people.
> getting sick is not worth having a friend
Everyone has their own risk analysis. My analysis is that this is totally out of whack. Covid will be around longer than you’ll be alive. Make a friend it won’t kill you.
What really gets me though I know people with your level of risk aversion* who force their developing kids into lockdown. I think the cohort born ~2014-2018 are really gonna be an odd bunch.
* partial risk aversion. The risk of social isolation is not taken into account and weighed against.
I think people totally don't understand the risk analysis here. I think getting covid is absolutely worth getting covid for most people. The health benefits of having friends is not being taken into account at all... ie mental health, exercise, life experiences, someone to help you when you need it, etc.
I acknowledge that my mental health is suffering because of COVID precautions I am taking. I still get plenty of exercise- more than I did pre-pandemic because I had to force some healthy physical habits on myself while working from home.
I think you skipped over “to me” before your quoted text. This tells me they might have some personal reason for their aversion besides aversion itself that makes total sense. Maybe they are a diabetic, cancer survivor, organ donor recipient, or have some other immune-related condition. I’m not a particularly social person and I know plenty of friends I haven’t been able to see without extra precautions because of this. Collectively the number of folks who are vulnerable to Covid from a pre-existing condition is a fairly significant size of the population. Maybe consider this?
The elephant in the room is that many people are vulnerable because they suffer from obesity. One third of the population is obese and another one third is overweight. That’s two thirds of the population who could be significantly healthier if they shed their weight.
I feel that as a society we have moved on from solving that problem and we now treat it as a cost of living, but it’s an enormous dead weight on society.
We all look around for every little thing we can do to reduce our risk of getting sick but we’re collectively unable to eat less. It’s like bandaging up someone who got hit by a train.
This comment is very out of left field. Are you calling me fat? Hahaha
> Maybe they are a diabetic, cancer survivor, organ donor recipient, or have some other immune-related condition.
For most people who have weakened immune systems, they don’t have some rare disease. They’re just fat. That’s the state of the developed word right now.
Thank you. People do no know everybody's situation, and those who come in here saying things like "COVID isn't a big deal" do not know everybody's story.
I am thankful I do not have young children right now. I don't know what I would do!
I am taking the risk of social isolation into account- that is why I say "even though it is wrecking my mental health". It is something I am very aware of.
I would have never called them friends in the first place. I have a strict line between friends and acquaintances.
Friends are those relationships which I made during childhood. I still keep those relationships up. We have a much stronger bond through the stuff we have been through together.
I think friendship needs very strong loyality which is just not given in a normal work environment. Eg I’d never lie in court for my acquaintances, but I have certainly for my friends.
"Eg. I'd never lie in court for my acquaintances, but I have for my friends."
You have lied in court. Is this correct. How do we know you are telling us the truth.
That’s the neat part: You don’t!
But: It’s not hard to say „no, I have never seen him doing drugs“ or whatever.
Don’t expect everyone to say the truth just because game theory suggests to optimize for individual rather than mutual reward.
Just assume everyone always lies on the internet
Does this mean you don't think it likely/possible to make new friends as an adult?
I am unsure whether I think this, but I haven’t found new friends since I left school.
I am 25.
Personally, for most of my closest friends, I made them at around you age (I am 40).
The reason is simple: I moved when I was 23, to a place where I didn't know anyone. I met people there, we did stuff together, often, because I was very available, because I didn't yet have other people to spend time with, and now we are friends.
If you already have an established group of friends, you are probably less available to make new ones. But if you find yourself in a situation where distance is created, that's when you are the most available to make new friends.
I'll offer a counter-example, to give you a bit of hope. I'm in my 50s. In the last 5 years I've gained one close friend and a handful of new friends in my social circle. Age is no barrier to forming friendships. You must be intentional about it. But new friendship happens throughout our lives.
That's an honest and thoughtful answer :)
I'm only a decade older than you, but when I look back over that decade it feels like everything's changed. I've made new friends through hobbies, music, sports and yes, the workplace. I've lost touch with some people I thought were close friends. I've also been surprised by getting back in touch with people from school or university who I thought I might never hear from again.
Would I lie for those people in court (or vice versa)? I dunno. It's kind of a weird litmus test, because it depends on one's principles, how serious the charge is, and one's perspective on the legal system. It could happen, but I could only answer on a case by case basis. It's possible that I'd lie in court for a complete stranger if the circumstances were right. I struggle with absolutist views like "This is what friendship means and I will 100% behave in this way if that situation arises".
How would I define "friend" as opposed to "acquaintance"? Possibly as simple as: someone that you spend time with just for the enjoyment of it. If they're a work colleague, this means that you're likely to meet up socially, away from the office and work events (even if just online). Otherwise you're there because you have to be.
My "best" friends that I am still in contact with are definitely from childhood. We all live in separate parts of the world now, but if I really needed help I know that they would come, just as I would go to help them.
Those people were bound to cease to be friends the moment either of you changes the job. If your crisis is after or relates to loosing a job (due to being sick for long time for example or due to staying at home with a small/sick child for some time), those friendships were bound to break.
This was at a relatively small startup, so we all spent a lot of time together. Those that did leave are/were still in the friend group! I know this is pretty rare in the corporate world, but it really was a "special place" to work.
> We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have.
I moved half a world away for a masters and now have a job in another country. I feel this so much. I've been tempted to go back several times just because the lack of connection. It doesn't help I'm in a smaller country which makes it hard to break into friend groups when they've all known each other since secondary school (or longer) or Uni.
Discord really can't replace in-person discussion and experiences.
I really wouldn’t worry about COVID this much.
How old are you? If you're reasonably young, and vaccinated, you really don't need to worry about COVID this badly. Practically everyone I know has had COVID by now and for most of them it was not much worse than catching a cold.
COVID is going to be around forever. I don't know why anyone is still letting it disrupt their lives.
I'm 30 (I think that's reasonably young?) and have had many vaccinations, but you make a lot of assumptions about any preexisting conditions I and those close to me may have. COVID is a brand new disease and even in those with mild cases we are just now starting to understand the long-term effects, especially of getting it multiple times.
It is a bet that I'm taking; I'm definitely curious to see 10 years down the road the difference in health between me (with a few years of social isolation) and those I know that have caught COVID multiple times. Usually they are catching it multiple times within the span of a few months/a year.
I started a new job, I’ve been going into the office occasionally, and I’ve made a few new friends already. It’s a breath of fresh air. Everyone I’ve talked to that’s gotten covid recently says it’s basically a cold by this point, so it’s not worth worrying about. President and Fauci said the pandemic is over months ago. It’s time to get out there and live again!
We need “work/life” balance because, at some point, we started separating work from life. It didn’t use to be that way. And we should begin to change it again.
Building companies with friends is the best way I have found to bring these two sides of life together.
And what about those people who say don’t start a company with friends or family? F* them! Sure, friendships might suffer. But hey, so what. That’s life.
And at least you’re surrounded by friends who love you, and you love them. Instead of random assholes who just wanna progress their career.
The problem finding friendships at work is that if you're just an employee, that's another thing your exploitative boss can use as leverage. Leave the company and lose your friends. Work long hours or you're letting your friends down. And the company won't consider those friendships for a nanosecond if getting rid of you is to their benefit.
This is stupid. If a friendship stretches beyond work, you can remain friends after you move on to another job. If you all work for an exploitative boss, move on and help your friends find a job at the new company that doesn’t suck.
That second step requires work life balance rather then workplace being also the place where you are expected to socialize on top of working. Because that additional workplace socializing takes additional time ... making you not having time to meet up with former collegues.
Exactly. That's why you need to start companies with friends.
Workaholics be like "why isn't literally everything about work?".
I love this comment. Really makes me think about what I should build with whom.
I came to study in Turkey in 1999. Until about 2003 or so it was still very common to see male friends holding hands. It became very uncommon towards mid-naughts.
As awareness of homosexuality and acceptance of it spreads, friendly measures like this between platonic friends become less common. This is not a moral judgement, just an observation. People don't want to be seen or feel like they're seen as something theyre not.
Counterpoint-- these cultures are perfectly well aware of homosexuality. It points to something deeper in American culture, IMO, where that men don't really have a comfortable place to just exist. There is no definition of masculinity that isn't in flux. As an Indian, there's a certain coldness in American culture, at least for men. It almost feels like it's considered almost wrong to try to sincerely connect with another man. But I rarely see this tension with most of the foreign cultures I've experienced.
It doesn't help that most people don't consider it a problem. They see life as "men are supposed to be independent and if you get lonely you just date". If you try to insist there is another way, some amount of people will continuously push back as if it's an insult to their culture(it really isn't meant that way!). Which, okay I can almost understand, but then I go back to seeing constant posts about how lonely people say they are and I'm like "well that's what I was saying"
The idea that gay people having more social standing and more rights has somehow ruined straight relationships is laughable. You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?
> ruined
Parent didnt say or even suggest that.
> when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands
He's making an observation. Have you been to Turkey at around the same and have a different experience?
You are completely misreading what the person said.
Holding hands between people of the same gender is now seen as a sign of a gay relationship (aka: couples holding friends). Therefore holding hands is no longer the sign of just friendship.
This is especially true in countries like Turkey where being gay is not really accepted.
well, yes. Having gay sex was criminal, holding hands was totally fine. Hell, forget holding hands, how about kissing each other on the lips? This used to be an acceptable behavior for straight folks. Remember the Brezhnev-Honecker portrait?
>You’re saying that when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands?
Is that really so shocking to you? You can observe this in any Arab Muslim country today.
There's an old NYTimes article from 1985 that mentioned this change in Italy: https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/10/magazine/about-men-making...
It's unfortunate.
The recent award winning Belgian film "Close" is in part about the awkwardness of (young) male friendship in western cultures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqPaPT6E_1k
It is still very common in many parts of India, or even in Indian quarters in places like Singapore, to see young male Indians hold hands.
I didn't find it odd at all. I actually thought, what a pity that in western societies this behavior can be seen as odd.
Hand holding is (or was) acceptable by boys in Korea; and so was non-sexual physical touching, even well into the college age by young men.
So it was a shock when I first befriended some Koreans in the US on student visas back in the 1980s.
That angl-saxon coldness was a learning experience for both parties. Being raised in the US by an emotionally distant Korean mother (Asperger’s?) I just thought that the US standard was normal.
It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about their personal lives.
I agree about pretty much every part of this article though. I feel bad for straight guys, how do y’all get by in life with such a lack of intimacy (physical and emotional) with your close friends?
I'm a guy and have been focused on building tools to explore emotions for like 10 years. I think a lot of us men lack intimacy with close friends, especially emotional, because we lack it with ourselves.
The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to feel, aka stay in the shallow end of the pool because it's safe. Maybe in the past we went into the deep end (often falling in love and then it ending) and we almost drowned, and therefore we may be terrified to go back there, even if we are a much better swimmer that we think we are.
Also, I don't think this applies just to men, as I was crafting this analogy today as a result of a woman who wants to seem to avoid going too deep with me or other people in her life right now, whereas I want the depth.
I think that’s an honorable goal. I like the swimming pool analogy. Some people and cultures are just so much more guarded when it comes to addressing their feelings with others. Even basic-level friend feelings of appreciation, compersion, and annoyance that are present in most all friend relationships. As a result connections can only go so deep and peoples’ friendships can feel empty and unfulfilling. The best part of having friends should be that you can be who you are sand say what you mean, but I see many people in my life for whom this is seemingly not possible. I called out the straights in my original post but it really crosses sexuality and gender, as you note!
I think I hear you. I studied intercultural communication in college and think I got so good at adapting to culture and have been asking myself more lately about how much would I like to change culture.
That's one thing I really appreciate about the article, almost saying let's try to (re)create culture to encourage friendship and affection and depth.
I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".
Did you grow up without physical intimacy/closeness from your parents or in particular your father?
I did have plenty of physical intimacy from my parents and my father growing up. Lots of hugs, kisses from both parents etc. After reading some of the other comments and reflecting, I think it's that I feel like too many of the people in this world are trying to socially manipulate me through touch, when I wish to be away from them.
Of course, with a world like ours, the people successfully manipulating me are more likely the ones I can't touch.
I think that hard times is what really creates that sense of brotherhood. Unfortunately, in the modern western world, it has become really easy to avoid serious hardships once you get even to a modest level of income. I've wanted to do challenging things with acquaintances of mine, but they just don't pan out. I invite people to the gym, I invite them on long hikes, I ask them to do something challenging with me, but it's so easy go to just stay at home and order Doordash. Once you get older a lot of people have other responsibilities and making new best friend just drops down the lost of priorities. I've just gotten used to it. I try to find satisfaction in life through what I can directly do, and not what others can do for me (or with me).
Is that unfortunate? If you've managed to avoid serious hardships with a modest level of income, do you need that sense of brotherhood? Brotherhood is forged in hard times because it's necessary in hard times. It strikes me a bit like looking for an emergency prepper kit in a land that doesn't have serious natural disasters. It's as if you're saying the old Chinese curse to yourself "may you live in interesting times".
I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not everything is War or Peace, and everyone is going to to struggle with something significant in life. Having deep, trusting bonds (brotherhood) is a source of security, even if the challenge is as boring and common as a passing illness.
I think hard times are a sufficient but not necessary condition. The reason that hard times create close relationships is because in a hard time you have to really be real with the people around you. You have to have mutual trust and mutual vulnerability.
These are things you can have even in good times. Ideally we would have them and not have hard times. But I think many people are not really interested in opening up in this way without an external catalyst.
Plenty of people go to the gym and go hiking. If you want friends who challenge themselves that way, maybe you should seek the ones who already are there.
Oh Charlie, I read this, and immediately I want to go hiking with you.
I'm a pretty affectionate (straight) dude, but I also came from a pretty affectionate family (German culture, parents were U.S. immigrants), and in particular between my father and I (I kiss him on the cheek goodbye for example). I hug everyone hello and goodbye, it feels nice. There's no fear of gayness, heck I have a couple gay friends I hug but they know my orientation so it's fine lol.
Looking at these photos, it does seem more close than I'd be comfortable with, especially the intertwined-leg photos, that seems a step beyond "mere" hand-holding lol. Or maybe it's not? Eye of the beholder I guess!
> it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other.
In Angloamerican countries, maybe. What you call 'vulnerability and affection' is a requirement for social conduct in Mediterranean, especially Latin countries. You wont find people who behave distant like in the US, or gasp cold like in the Nordic countries. They would be either foreigners, who would be identified as such and their behavior of being cold would be considered normal because they are foreigners, or, if they look local enough, they would be thought to have psychological problems, even autistic. In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'.
And in some places, if you arent emotional and crying in important moments as a man or a woman, people could easily think that you are psychopath.
Not exaggerating or kidding. There are great differences in between cultures on the planet.
In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'.
TIL! As a (straight, late middle-age, male) Swedish person this is kind of hilarious! :)
Couldn't find a reference after some mild searching, but I did find another TIL [1]: "no te hagas el sueco" (don’t act like you're a Swede), which means "don't act like you don't understand". Interesting!
[1]: https://cafebabel.com/en/article/expressions-why-the-spanish...
Agreed, I’m definitely coming at this as an American. Even more so as a Seattleite, a place known for its relative social coldness even by US standards.
I was told that it wasn't always this bad in the US either. A few decades ago, people were warmer and they socialized more. It looks like in the past few decades, social alienation and fear have set into the American society and started making people ever more distant from each other. Likely because of the stress and angst caused by economic insecurity, consumerism, the ensuing social and political conflicts etc etc.
I agree on all points. I think tech/phones have this effect as well. People become more like the machines they interact with. Seattle is probably the most tech-dominated city by ratio of residents in the industry in the US…
In Italy it's fairly common for people of the same sex to greet each other with two kisses on the cheeks or hug each other. Holding hands has become kind of taboo but I don't really see the behavior of the men in those picture as inherently gay. I agree with the article that it's sad that this closeness has gone away, but it's kind of a self-inflicted problem. Men should learn not to be this homophobic and accept a bit of sane homoeroticism into their straight friendships.
I have 4 kids and a full time job. There are not enough hours in the day to even come close to doing 'well' at either of these responsibilities. Time to build and maintain friendships would be a luxury for me. I get by with the knowledge that if I didn't keep doing what I'm doing, the people I'm responsible for would all be homeless or worse.
I hug my friends (I’m fairly straight) but yeah the whole classically masculine vibe makes me pretty uncomfortable
This is pretty simple. Back when being a sexual deviant was heavily stigmatized, there was an overwhelming presumption that any public male-male affection was platonic. Thus these images wouldn't have raised any eyebrows in the time they were taken. Now that we live in an age where any perversion that doesn't involve children is acceptable, normal men are much less comfortable acting like, well, normal men. It's too bad. Even when I was younger, which wasn't all that long ago, it was normal for two boys to hold hands in friendship.
Even going to a pub with a friend and I get strange looks. 2 straight guys having some beers. I guess gayness ruined the rainbow for everybody else.
Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.
You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.
How exactly do a couple funny looks from strangers prevent you from enjoying being straight? If you were gay would you get mad at people for assuming you're straight? You can't control what people think of you, so it's hardly sensible to base your enjoyment of life on their opinions.
If you do this behaviour regularly, they'll think you're gay. Like many mentioned, the bar is very low when it comes to being perceived as gay these days. Great for gay folks cos they've gone through shit. Good for them. They should be able to be themselves.
But certain actions eventually would make people think a straight dude gay. Then the people you are interested in "romantically" won't be interested in you cos you're thought as gay. It's so hard to explain this. It's a bunch of things. If it is a one off, it is not an issue. But otherwise it is complicated.
This is why dudes are soooo expressive with their buddies in a closed environment they are comfortable with. Shit is completely different when you are outside of that.
One of the biggest BS I have come to realise is people saying ignore the world and the society. If you have nothing to lose, sure. Else YOU ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY. And there are norms.
Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.
It's just difficult. Now imagine the same happening in an asian country or somewhere where it is relatively new about this. You won't have the same luxury of being given a benefit of doubt even if you mean things in a good sense. Cos the LGBTQ+ community could be going through shit already. So they are by default defensive.
PS: Just sharing my perspective based on things I have experienced and seen. Not hate towards anything or anyone to be extra clear. :peace:
> Then the people you are interested in "romantically" won't be interested in you cos you're thought as gay.
And you can fix this in like 10 seconds via asking the person out on a date or casually mentioning that cute person of the opposite gender you saw yesterday that you wish you'd talked to.
> Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.
Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.
> And you can fix this in like 10 seconds via asking the person out on a date or casually mentioning that cute person of the opposite gender you saw yesterday that you wish you'd talked to.
Yes. Of course. But why do you expect people are directly conversing? Anyone around interested but presumes me as gay wouldn't even bother asking.
I don't think I can clearly explain this.
> Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.
Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.
> Anyone around interested but presumes me as gay wouldn't even bother asking.
Hot girl walks by. Make a point of checking her out. Believe me, there are a myriad of ways to express attraction to a certain type of person when in proximity to someone. Arguably the most direct being eye contact with someone you could be interested in.
Girl sees two men walking together holding hands. One makes eye contact + explicit gesture at her. She might think he's a creep, but probably won't think he's gay.
> Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.
You're welcome. FWIW, I'm in France.
>Girl sees two men walking together holding hands. One makes eye contact + explicit gesture at her. She might think he's a creep, but probably won't think he's gay.
She certainly would, in the US.
A human is social, how we see ourselves is not really separable from how others see us. Read about the psychological concept of labeling: we tend to become who others think we are.
It's not about becoming mad at people around you thinking you're gay, but if you can actually fully ignore community's attitude towards you and not let it subtly change your behavior or weigh on you I'd say it's not typical.
Social pressures never turned anyone gay. Quite the opposite actually.
Of course it would not turn you gay. Or would it?
Let me rephrase this for you.
In long term we, being social, unconsciously tend to become what people expect of us (becoming typically less malleable as we age) or feel tension otherwise. In an unrelated news, we seek approval of others. Those are sadly different things. If people see you (straight) as gay, and they disapprove of gay, you got a problem on your hands.
Maybe you see how that could introduce undercurrents that hamper your enjoyment at the bar.
I enjoyed myself. I didn’t enjoy the looks, but it’s hard to explain.
> I din’t want to be perceived as gay
I'm pretty sure that unless they catch you making out with a dude, the jury will forever be out on whether you're gay or not, I think this is between you and your insecurity frankly
I've gotten more suspicious looks walking into a place alone than I have with 1 friend.
Your psychologizing and shaming would be more effective if the OP wasn't responding to a comment that literally says as a gay man these non-gay photos (of men doing less) read to him as gay.
Which begs the question: who knows more about gay stuff? Him or you?
Interesting username choice if true…
>with a root in misogyny
Nice thing for women to appropriate themselves of the suffering of gay men.
Is... is this happening to you in the UK? I've been to pubs plenty of times with just a male friend/acquaintance/relative/colleague/whatever and not only have I never received strange looks, I've also seen lots of other similar groups of pub goers.
And this is in lots of places big and small across the UK, not just in "metropolitan liberal elite" locations...
In the gay capital of Amsterdam
P