The ethics of reclining airplane seats
lesswrong.comAs someone tall (6'2") who regularly flies (~50-100 times a year) I'm pretty horrified at some of these responses. Yes, reclining the seat in front of me is marginally more uncomfortable on my knees - though offset by reclining my own seat.
But if I have to sit in a non-reclined seat for more than an hour or two, there's a pretty big chance I'll wake up with my head bobbing forward and in horrific neck/lower back pain.
I tend to fall asleep pretty quickly on most flights (long or short haul), recline my seat soon after takeoff and keep it reclined until final approach. Not once in 500+ flights has anyone ever complained or asked me to sit up - and it wouldn't even cross my mind to ask anyone to do the same! It's their seat, their recline, that's what the button's for. Who am I to prioritize my own comfort over theirs (especially when the impact to mine is minor compared to how much I gain from reclining)...
> Not once in 500+ flights has anyone ever complained or asked me to sit up - and it wouldn't even cross my mind to ask anyone to do the same!
Exactly! I'm surprised by some of the comments here considering that's it's essentially expected to do it. I wonder if they fly at all.
I'm a frequent flier too, and only one time it happened to me that someone complained (and he was some type of thug).
Also I'm not sure how this affects tall people in particular. Considering the seat angle, I don't think the seat will make contact with the other person knees. It's only an issue when food is served, but at that time it's forbidden to recline.
No idea what planes you usually take or how long your legs vs torso are but I am a little taller and most of the time the person in front of me can't recline when my knees are there.
Others need these little wedge devices, I just sit and block it. And no, even if I wouldn't find it funny it's not like I can move my legs anywhere else.
This is mostly continental European smaller planes, honestly can't remember how it was in a 7x7, probably more space.
Be aware that people with bad hips, arthritis, or other such physical problems may be in a significant amount of pain without reclining. In such cases, reclining for more comfort isn't a trivial improvement - it is the difference between being able to walk or not when the flight ends.
Being someone in such a category, I really do sympathize with people who are likewise made physically uncomfortable when I recline. But changing seats can work. I'd always be happy to change as well - we're in this together. Likewise, I'm happy to sit up if you need more room for a few minutes here and there. But I will admit I'm less sympathetic to the "How dare you -- you made me move my drink" crowd.
FWIW, I also avoid flights if at all possible. Trains and road trips are my primary means of travel.
I’m 5-5 and medium build so I really don’t notice the difference between main and comfort+ for the most part - I often get free upgrades. But, I can imagine how much of a miserable experience it must be for someone taller or bigger in main when the seat is reclined. Being tall in this case is a “physical problem”.
And many companies that pay for or reimburse for business travel won’t reimburse for anything other than main - including the “frugal FAANG”.
I’m in camp if they give you the option you have to assume the person in front will fully recline. No point in getting mad over it. If you want or need more space just get the premium seats if it means that much to you.
They can recline it as long as it is far from my knees. But if they need to take their space, the seat won't budge
If they need more space they can pay for a seat that reclines more then
Fun story: in the 1980s I flew with a co-worker on Northwest DC-10. Co-worker was a tall solid guy. Person in front tried to recline their seat into his knees. Knees prevented full recline. Person complained to FA. FA yells at my co-worker telling him he has to move his knees to facilitate full recline for person in front.
I'm 6-5, really long femurs. This happened to me one time as well. I told the flight attendant to move my already spread and jammed knees for me. She quickly realized that there was no orientation of my femurs that would make everyone happy.
I'm hearing that because I'm 6'6" I should either be able to pay for premium or just never fly. That's a good excuse to get out an in-laws wedding next summer - I'll run it by my wife.
I’m hearing that you should recline your seat if you need more space.
Now we're in a prisoners dilemma, aren't we?
No, we're just in an equilibrium where everyone reclines. To be a PD it would have to be better for everyone if nobody reclined.
We're in, perhaps, a tyranny of the majority, but those are everywhere. As I'm sure you've already noticed if you're 6'6".
> No, we're just in an equilibrium where everyone reclines
Never had to sit in the very last row of an airplane?
We are in the trolley problem, not the prisoners dilemma.
And on some planes they even allowed those seats to recline a little, so maybe not in any philosophical debate other than that people often don't consider other people's suffering
Ah, so it's really a "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" situation.
Every now and then I fly in a small plane that takes me from a major hub to my hometown about 200 miles away. Basically if I’m already at the airport coming off another flight, it’s easier just to hop on a plane than Uber an hour away across the metro and then drive back down south.
The plane only has 55 seats and no premium seats. I see tall people struggle all of the time.
I'm also 6'6" and that's a realization I came to years ago. Pre-pandemic it was 'pay for first class', post-pandemic it's been 'never fly'. (And if I'm lucky I'll never have to get on an airplane ever again)
So many things are biased in favor of tall people, I have no problem with them having to pay more for a larger seat rather than externalizing those costs onto everyone else.
As a tall person (not even that tall, 190cm) I'm going to have to vehemently disagree.
Car, airplane, train bus, metro, etc. seats and space available are designed for shorter people. Doors are sometimes too short (I've taken multiple violent hits to the head due to this abroad). Clothes are harder to find.
Do you have any other counter examples? Maybe i only see when I'm inconveniences and miss when things are made for me.
Do you have any examples of things biased in favor of tall people?
_Life at the top_ by Nobel Laureate Angus Deaton:
"According to the Gallup-Healthways Well-Being Index daily poll of the US population, taller people live better lives, at least on average. They evaluate their lives more favorably, and they are more likely to report a range of positive emotions such as enjoyment and happiness. They are also less likely to report a range of negative experiences, like sadness, and physical pain, though they are more likely to experience stress and anger, and if they are women, to worry. These findings cannot be attributed to different demographic or ethnic characteristics of taller people, but are almost entirely explained by the positive association between height and both income and education, both of which are positively linked to better lives."
Link (PDF): https://www.princeton.edu/~deaton/downloads/Deaton_Life_at_t...
I can reach into the cupboard above the refrigerator without a step stool. Oh, yea, I can see over most people in a crowd.
I jest, but I'm just a bit taller than average. Occasionally, my wife will point out something that's far easier for me because it's in my reach and not in her reach. Except in cramped circumstances, being taller gives you more flexibility.
They aren't hard to find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_discrimination
> Height discrimination (also known as heightism) is prejudice or discrimination against individuals based on height. In principle, it refers to the discriminatory treatment against individuals whose height is not within the normal acceptable range of height in a population.
> So many things are biased in favor of tall people, I have no problem with them having to pay more for a larger seat rather than externalizing those costs onto everyone else.
Case in point? Tall people are outside the normal, acceptable range of height. They certainly get micro- (and in this case, macro) aggressed for it. In my experience, the micro-aggressions seem more blatant because being tall is perceived as being an obviously good thing. People want to be comfortable in their bodies.
This is about human perception, not about things being designed with a bias in favour of tall people.
I said nothing about things being “designed with a bias in favor of tall people.'
Tall people earn significantly more on average. Asking short people to underwrite tall people's airfare does not seem fair given that fact.
I'm 6'10. What is built in my favor?
Basketball goal.
Volleyball net.
Gutters on single story house.
Definitely not chairs, door frames, showers, or beds.
Drawback to that first one - Everyone asking if you play basketball. Especially obnoxious during junior high - No, I just put on like two feet of growth, I'm lucky if I can even figure out where my feet are, to say nothing of running with them.
Becoming a CEO or other high status job.
name a CEO who is 6'10
Shaq
I'm of a similar height and you're leaving out the third option. Fly and suffer. Sit like a GSD with hip dysplasia.
But in all seriousness, you're not used to it by now? Paying more for clothes that fit properly, a car that fits without hair brushing on the headliner or knees in the steering column, air mattresses, real mattresses, tents, bicycles, shoes, etc.
It's true - I'm used to having to pay more for the same and for putting up with a certain level of expected discomfort. I just find with flying there's not a good alternative option. I can shop around for a car that fits me in the right price range, I straight up just don't have a choice with flying.
"The ability to recline an airplane seat implies a right to recline an airplane seat" is a very unconvincing argument. If everything unethical must be physically prevented, then what even is ethics? "If I can do it, I may do it" is a rejection of ethics.
Objectively, reclining your seat reduces the available space for the person behind you, who is already cramped for space. Even if everyone could recline (which they can't because of exit rows and back rows), the person behind you would have more space if you didn't.
So you can basically take this two ways. You can be utilitarian and try to minimize total pain ("Airplane etiquette is you only recline when necessary, and if you must recline, just put the seat back a little bit to get the comfort you need without encroaching too much on the person behind you."), or you can be Hippocratic and commit to doing no harm ("If someone is sitting behind you then don't recline your seat").
Either position is defensible, but I can't see any defense of the position that you naturally have a right to reduce your suffering at the expense of increasing someone else's.
I’ve been on a few flights in which the seat reclined by swinging forward, rather than pivoting backward. So, the impact of the recline was fully experienced by the recliner, and not at all by the person in the seat behind.
That's genius. Way better than this interminable game theory experiment the airlines are running.
that's a great idea -- though i have not experienced this myself (except in some movie theaters)
I presume such chairs are costlier to manufature and maintain -- so most cheap airlines do not opt for them
More likely they're a newer design, and won't appear in the cheaper airlines until those planes trickle down.
They're singled in the middle so the bottom slides forward, the top slides back.
Was this a problem the internet invented? It used to be that no one seemingly cared and everyone reclined their seat as soon as takeoff was over. I guess the modern era is creating new unwritten social contracts.
For what it's worth - I never mind. I get to partake in the miracle of flight. And they only give you, like, 3 inches of recline anyway. Just take it.
Seat pitch has decreased significantly since the internet was invented. It's hard to take seriously any discussion that doesn't take that into account.
(Also, a lot more people have laptops than in the '90s. IME it's not possible to use laptops in coach if the seat in front is at all reclined, though I seldom see this mentioned.)
Yeah, I notice that too. When I bring a laptop there's about 50/50 chance I can actually use it.
Still, miracle of flight and all that. Still beats walking.
I think you might be comparing different things and making the wrong conclusion. Before "the modern era and Internet" there was much more place on airplanes' seats. Squeezing every millimetre of space is a new(-ish, it's been what, 10-15 years now) trend born out of low cost competitors doing that and severely undercutting legacy carriers, who replicate. So if everyone reclined 30 years ago, it still probably resulted in more space available for everyone compared to today, even in a non-reclined configuration.
The problem was invented by airlines squeezing passengers into sardine-appropriate seating arrangements.
Voicing the problem has been amplified due to the internet.
This pre-dates the Internet (or at least WWW) by a considerable amount of time.
It was controversial to some back when you could still smoke on a plane.
EDIT: I agree with other posters that this became a bigger problem as the airlines reduced seat space over time.
seems like the actual problem is the meager space provided in the first place, not the scraps of free room we're forced to battle over
Yet people continue to vote their purchasing dollars for too-tight seat spacing - because the cost of roomier seats is for-sure and up-front. Vs. hope springs eternal on the reality that you'll get.
The options are usually either “dirt cheap economy” or “crazy expensive business”.
For some reason business class is often like 5x 6x the economy! Why is there no middle class?
It’s called premium economy and it exists on most major airlines.
Not on Southwest, which I generally prefer for other reasons, but United almost always has seats with about 6" of extra leg room available to upgrade to for 10%-20% more, as an option. I often pay for this. For the comfort itself and to support such an option. I just don't like the fact that the easy thing to sort over on flight search engines is price and airlines like United now often have the cheapest seats the middle ones.
Shop around airlines, you can find some that offer a middle ground - Premium Economy or Exit Row.
At 6'2" I've never really had a problem with someone reclining in front of me, and if someone behind asked nicely I'd go to upright lock position.
Of course, I usually don't have a foot bag which makes a big difference.
Anything that fits under the seat in front of you will also fit hugged up to your seat under your knees to allow you to extend your legs once the plane has taken off.
I do that on exit rows regularly (except during takeoff and landing of course)
Probably because the profit they'd lose by business class travelers downgrading to it would be more than the profit they'd gain by economy class travelers upgrading to it.
There is: premium economy.
Also, business/first class is often much less than 5-6x the economy price. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen it that much higher.
On transcontinental flights 5-6x sounds about right. My last flights between Europe and North America or Asia were typically like
- Economy $500
- Premium eco $1500
- Business $3000
- First $6000
And the gap can be wider on high-end airlines (15-20k for a first class ticket).
Business class is just that - usually paid with someone else’s money and therefore those passengers aren’t price sensitive.
Relying on "voting with dollars" for something like this is not going to work, because that requires an idealized free market.
Air travel is not an idealized free market. Frankly, nearly nothing in our current circumstances even comes close to acting like an idealized free market, because one thing that requires is enough disposable income for all parties that paying more for something preferred is not likely to cause significant financial hardship. (And before anyone says "but it's only an extra $12 for premium economy" or whatever, it's not just this specific choice—it's about the mindset that you have to adopt when your purchasing power is so constrained, to consider every decision and try to be frugal.)
I just abandoned paying about $12 more to get more legroom on a flight. The flight itself was an unexpected $200 hit and I didn't want to pay more than I had to.
In the US it seems there is not enough competition and as well their are significant barriers to entry for new airlines.
> In the US it seems there is not enough competition
You can just stop there and you'll be accurate about a major part of the source of almost any of our current problems.
Which problem goes back to not regulating greed well enough. I need other greedy bastards to jump out of bed with a new idea on how to make a buck, i just don't want them to take $1.10 when they do it...
Almost everybody does it since it's impossible to sleep on a non-reclined seat. I'm surprised this is even an issue being discussed.
I assume you know it's not 'impossible'.
Not only that, but I only recline if I'm awake and have my eyes open - in response to the person in front doing so.
I don't find it a more comfortable position, but I do find the person in front adopting it an uncomfortable encroachment on my space; so I reclaim it.
Obviously others differ, since I would never recline in the emergency exit row, so if we all felt the same way nobody would have anything to recline in response to.
I get horrible back pain if the seat doesn't recline on most seats (I've sat in a very few airline seats that are ok without reclining, but they are a few).
So I will claim my space in order to avoid it.
Are you tall (> 6 feet)?
I think people’s policies on reclining are probably significant impacted by how uncomfortable they are if the person in front reclines, which AFAICT is much more significant for tall people than people of median height or below.
I think the main argument is whether to recline on flights, say, less than 5 hours in duration. If everyone is trying to sleep on a long overnight, most everyone would like to recline
I never recline and fall asleep regularly.
It's not if you have a window seat. You can lean on the plane wall.
It's worth to note most airlines reduce row spacing way below what those chairs were designed for.
At the intended spacing this wouldn't be much of a problem.
Considering I've had drinks crushed, and when the person in front fully reclines it is impossible to get out it is a fine line.
You might have the ability but it does impact other people. Be aware of this and it could be fine, a lot of the pro-reclining comments were definitely indifferent how their actions impacted others.
> a lot of the pro-reclining comments were definitely indifferent how their actions impacted others
last 2+ years are all you need to realize this is a depressingly consistent theme across civilization today
The less wrong word would be etiquette, not ethics.
This is a problem airlines have created making the customer feel morally obligated to solve. Most of the time, people feel bad about doing so that they believe others should behave the same way they feel when that’s not remotely the reality we live in.
I almost don't care when the person in front of me reclines.
After all, we choose to be in the pit. Everyone pushed airlines and bus companies to have the lowest fares despite uncomfortable spaces. I remember about decently comfortable public airlines that almost went bankrupt in the 2000s, in Europe.
I would just set a few rules : -1 Hund's rules for reclining seat : please don't recline the seat just if front of someone, if you can do it somewhere else
- please be gentle : recline slowly and possibly with some notice, instead of just teleporting into the knees, head, laptop, and coffee just behind you The noises of smashed bones, and the "ouch ! it hurt and it burns" you'll hear might indicate these belonged to someone.
In practice, cramped space in planes is a reason I take the train (1st class as it's nearly the same price as 2nd in here) You have plenty of room, sturdy and bulky seats, the seats have a shell, and slide forward instead of smashing everything behind. You also have a bar serving expresso, wifi, cellular networks, full size power outlets, and no luggage is checked in away from you.
I don't travel in Italy, but I would like to try the executive class of their Frecciarossa. It's a coach with only a dozen of so seats, 2 per row, and there is a conference room. For an acceptable rate, compared to the same thing in a plane.
On EasyJet, seats do not recline. I remember the first time I discovered this, thinking what a brilliant idea and why doesn't everyone do this?
Of course, it helps that their flights are mostly short-haul (mentioned in the article).
Short-haul (transit) bus seats don't recline either, but long-haul ones usually do.
I feel that for much of airline travel these days we should just give up the charade that it's anything more than a flying bus (one of the companies is even named AIRBUS), install plastic hose-down seats, and be done with it.
Is this an American thing? Whenever I've flown in Europe or trans-Atlantic either the seats do not recline at all or almost everyone reclines their seat for the entire flight (and no one throws a tantrum about it).
I've personally flown a ton of American domestic flights and have never encountered someone who threw a tantrum over reclining seats. In fact, prior to this post, I didn't even realize it was something some people frowned at.
Anecdotal, of course, but then this entire thread is fairly anecdotal.
It’s worth pointing out that the last row on a plane often doesn’t recline, so the idea of everyone reclining is a bit of a red herring. That said, you do know that when you book your flight (if you’re wealthy enough to pay for a specific seat), so it could be considered one of flyings many taxes on the less than wealthy.
Lots of interesting arguments. I like the suggestion at the end that just politely asking before reclining is the simplest way to resolve this question.
There's an (understandable) tendency in rationalist circles to assume social conventions have little value but sometimes they reflect accumulated wisdom. Be a good neighbor and ask before you do something that affects people nearby, regardless of whether you have a unilateral right to do it.
Airplanes are such a bizarre space.
I’ve seen many people break rules or even the law just because they wanted to (failure to wear mask, trying to get their kid to sit in an exit aisle, drinking, drinking in the exit aisle). Some of the rules change flight to flight. Either people’s behavior changes in these spaces, or I should lower my expectations. Probably the latter.
I'm going to continue reclining my seat as soon as cleared to do so after takeoff until requested to return it to an upright postition before landing. If the person behind me has an issue, they can politely request me to accommodate them and depending on the flight. One of us may be able to move seats or depending on the height of the person and time/length of the flight I may leave the seat up.
However, is someone is rude, entitled or aggressive when they ask. There is little to no way I will go out of my way to do anything to make them more comfortable.
Given the frequency with which it is an issue (rarely), it makes more sense to wait to be asked not to do it than to ask if I can do it every time.
I'm not old by my own standards, but I've been riding on planes for close to 50 years and I feel like this has only emerged as a topic of debate relatively recently. It's always been a downer when someone in front of you reclines, but that's just how it goes on an airplane. If I wanted lots of room, I would have taken the train.
Have airline seats gotten tighter (they've always been tight as far as my taller-than-average frame is concerned)? Are people getting bigger? Are people becoming less tolerant of others?
Put me firmly in the "The ability to recline implies a right to recline" camp.
great article! I'm looking forward to 'ethics of armrest' to understand the dynamics at play for the one that is shared with your neighbor.
I found a easy solution to this one a while ago: middle seat gets both armrests to compensate for it being the middle seat. When I get an aisle or window seat, I relinquish use of one of my armrests to the middle seat.
Everyone knows, Window gets an armrest and a wall. Middle gets two armrests. Aisle gets an armrest and a little bit of extra leg. We’re not fucking animals! We live in a society!
-Jim Jefferies.
I'm pretty small and so don't ever recline because I know how annoying it is. However, if I was exceptionally tall I probably would fully recline in order to just not be miserable. When someone fully reclines in front of me I'm really annoyed but don't hold a grudge. It's their seat to recline after all. Heh the whole scenario is like a little illustration of your beliefs and values.
Related: The ethics of standing up at a sporting event forcing every domino in the column behind you to also stand in order to see anything.
I'm around 200cm tall and reclining should be banned, actually don't even give this option to passengers at all, because there will be always ahole who reclines no matter what he is told. If you wanna sleep wait after flight.
When the person in front of me wants to recline, I have to take my shoes off to make room for my knees. Perfectly fine on a long haul flight, but a 2 hour flight in the middle of the day?
Fortunately Frontier airlines seats don’t recline. I hope more US airlines go this way.
It is amazing that people blame each other for this. The seats are on rails and the airline can adjust the seat spacing in a couple of hours if it really wants to.
Just complain to the airline about inadequate space in coach.
The fiduciary agreement exists between you and the airline, not other passengers. Recline as much as the aircraft hardware allows. Don't like it? Buy a business class seat.
Airline seat ergo contours pitch people forward if they are over 6'3 in height. Reclining is the only way to sit up straight.
"a grown man started violently shaking and kicking my seat"
there is some percentage of boys that never grow up to be a man... which seems to be growing? Or is it that the internet has just allowed us to all share our experiences with each other easily.
Tho, look at Jan 6th insurrection. The oath keepers seem to be "grown men" larping as seal team 6 under orders from the president. I don't get it.