I worked for Elon Musk in the early days of SpaceX
businessinsider.comThis article reads like an abused partner defending their abuser. This kind of double-sidedness is extremely common in abusive relationships, in large part because it's a really effective method of exerting control over someone while encouraging them to blame themselves for being abused.
> If there are employees not aligned with that vision, he will chew them out and he will do it in a vicious way, which is his right as owner.
Is it?
No one has a right to chew you out in a vicious way. As owner he has a right to fire you, but if I were a Twitter employee and he raised his voice to me, I'd be right in face at twice the volume. I'd have to get paid a lot more than a "competitive" salary to be viciously chewed out.
The guy has money and acolytes in high places. Quit if you want, but dont make an enemy of someone who can blacklist you. Just leave. Dont make a scene.
This.
We're talking about a guy who publicly falsely accused a guy he was jealous of of being a pedo without evidence. Just imagine what he would do if he could get away with it without backlash
I wouldn't want to gez on his bad side because I think he has the power and pettiness to ruin my life
And now he controls twitter. I doubt he will self-censor. Such allegations may well live on in search results for many years.
You can grovel in front of an abuser, giving up all human dignity, if you want. In the end, he is just a man, and evil one at that.
Leaving is not groveling.
You don’t have to imagine: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-elon...
Tesla CEO Elon Musk Admits He May Have Bipolar Disorder https://yourdost.com/blog/2017/08/is-elon-musk-bipolar.html
That’s ugly. Alright, y’all have convinced me to not stand up to him. And more depressingly try to never cross his path, much less work for him.
This article gets more terrifying the more you read
That just feels like a cheap way to live. Maybe it's prudent, but I feel like I couldn't live with myself.
Read Sun Tzu, live like a great general, pick your battles wisely, and make the cost worth the gain. You will make more of a difference and live a life of more power than 'trying to not live a cheap way'.
It probably makes sense not to work for someone who can destroy your life and is inclined to do so on a whim. The calculus in dealing with those people is apparently different than just about anyone else you'll encounter in life.
God help us if he colonizes mars and has total control of air water and heat. He won’t stop at baselessly accusing you of terrible crimes. (Which by the way he has yet to apologize for, meaning he’s not sorry and he’ll make no effort to stop)
At a certain point we need to agree that his bad behavior is not worth the vision.
I would never willing put myself at his mercy. Too bad he’s now in charge of defining free speech in this democracy.
> God help us if he colonizes mars and has total control of air water and heat.
We've already seen this play out in the movie Total Recall: https://youtu.be/X8lT-Sn-HqE
Acting out makes you look like a buffoon even if someone else started it.
Maybe. But if I was in a meeting and Musk was tearing into someone unfairly and viciously and that person just sat there, I'd feel bad for them and a little disgusted. Conversely, I think it would be empowering to see them stand up to Musk.
The thing is, Musk has enough money to treat everyone horribly and just have them quit. He would feel nothing. He'll just hire the next guy. But standing up to him I bet is something that happens nearly never.
This sounds pragmatic. But it also sounds… I’m not sure but it set my alarm off.
Abusers and bullies need to be stood up to.
Yes, but it’s also worth keeping in mind which fights one can win. Nothing to win there by yelling back.
I think the relevant aphorism is: you can be right or you can be happy, but usually not both.
Totally
This guy worked with elon for 1 year. He's says in the article that he didn't enjoy that style of management and left. Sounds like he's the perfect candidate for this topic rather than a yes man from elon
Twenty years ago. I’ve no doubt Musk is mercurial, but the time gap alone is enough to render the article likely moot.
You don’t think musk is mercurial anymore? Are you paying any attention at all?
I think you need to re-read what I wrote.
> This article reads like an abused partner defending their abuser.
You should read a few stories about working for Steve Jobs (or head to YouTube and watch interviews). This article is extremely mild, in comparison.
Very horrible vs. extremely horrible. Spot the difference.
If I were younger, I’d work for either of them. I’m not fragile.
> I’d work for either of them.
Why? You could work in a less toxic environment and just buy their stock if you believe in the mission.
Why not work for Elon now then?
I've got young children and am not willing to move (for any amount of money). If he'll let me work remote, then I'm down!
I don't like toxic people. And I wouldn't work for them for any amount of money.
I feel the same way about accounts of working with most (if not all) modern arch-capitalists, trust me.
>> > If there are employees not aligned with that vision, he will chew them out and he will do it in a vicious way, which is his right as owner.
Is it? >>
Yes, this is the sentence that stopped me in my tracks. No-one has that "right". But more importantly, it isn't right...
We're all adults, don't like his style, don't work for him. It's that simple. Obviously enough people don't think his style is harsh or vicious, as described in the article, otherwise his numerous companies wouldn't have a line out the door of prospective employees.
My take on the article was Musk drives you like a good highschool sports coach. Demanding, hard, unforgiving... and you either live up to the high expectations or you are weeded out.
Which actually sounds wonderful... working with an entire organization that is aligned in thought and motivations, and everyone bringing their 'A' game. Compare that to your current job...
Not to mention the guy in the article only worked with Musk for less than 1 year, over 20 years ago. I don't know about you, but I'm not the same person I was 20 year ago...
Nobody at Twitter asked to work for him. They woke up one day and found that he was their CEO, after months of legal games where he demonstrated extreme reluctance to honor his deal.
Shit happens that is outside your control. You control how you respond to it. If the new boss is a dick and you don’t want to work for him, you quit.
I do not see the point.
Musk owns Twitter, and Twitter doesn't owe anyone a job. If you are not on board with the goals and vision the owner has, then you need a different job.
It is that simple. Time to be mature folks... don't like Musk's style - don't work for him. Someone else will fill your place in a heartbeat.
> Which actually sounds wonderful... working with an entire organization that is aligned in thought and motivations, and everyone bringing their 'A' game. Compare that to your current job...
Join a cult?
> Not to mention the guy in the article only worked with Musk for less than 1 year, over 20 years ago.
He's likely much worse now. A person's nature doesn't change so much over the years but the experiences they have influences how those traits come out. What happens when someone like this has acquired wealth and success, has been surrounded by sycophants, and repeatedly gets away with shit behavior. Who's really going to stop a 'bad Elon' day for him? As we saw on the Twitter thing, nobody can stop a 'good Elon' idea that he maybe shouldn't have done either.
> Join a cult?
I remember, just a little over a year ago where the fever surrounding anything Musk related could only be reasonably described as a cult.
It was amazing to witness... the guy could do no wrong, ever. It didn't matter how outlandish the idea was, how uninformed the plan was, how badly he went about it... he was god on earth.
Then he says a few things Californian's disagreed with during the peak of Covid insanity and suddenly, nearly overnight, he's a super villain.
The transformation has been truly breathtaking to witness.
He's still the same guy from a year ago folks. Let that sink in...
Your recollection is distorted. Most of the people who don't like what he does now didn't like him a year ago either.
He is not. He is a parody of himself. Screaming delusional maniac.
> Musk drives you like a good highschool sports coach
Which might be good to get results from traumatized teenagers for a few years but probably not adults.
Also, child or adult, you shouldn’t have a tyrant able to abuse you at will until you quit.
You make it sound like you're a hostage or something at one of his companies.
Get a different job. Twitter/Musk doesn't owe you a thing. It's not Musk's responsibility to ensure you have food on your table... it's yours. Don't like your situation, move on.
If enough people found Musk intolerable then his companies would fail all on their own.
The difference is your sports coach knows what good looks like. Musk is a bloviating idiot demanding on-paper code review.
The guy literally earned hundreds of millions of dollars by writing code. I think that qualifies him to do code reviews however he wants... no?
My code has earned me zero millions so far...
> The difference is your sports coach knows what good looks like
How can we honestly say Musk doesn't? Has his numerous successes not demonstrated he clearly knows what he's doing? All of his thousands and thousands of employees are just... hostages I guess?
I get it's fashionable to hate on Musk right now - and if you review my comment record you will see very few have been more bearish on Musk since the very beginning, but this latest round of criticisms are really just not reality.
What code has Musk ever written?
Zip2 and X.com (later PayPal after a merger).
These two ventures are what propelled Musk to where he is today.
Even according to Ashlee Vance's fawning biography the original Zip2 was a shambling mess that segfaulted constantly and had to be urgently rewritten from scratch.
I think the larger dependency is on the investors, not on employees. There seems to be quite a bit of support and good will from investors towards Musk. And this is understandable, no one wanted to see a failure to electrify vehicles. But taking money from Tesla and putting it into Twitter is bound to ruffle some investor's feathers. And bound to increase the attack surface (i.e. big automotive withdrawing advertisements from Twitter).
As to 'A' game, it is strange how often that everyone is so convinced that the 'A' game is being played. And yet there is very little market impact. And a lot of investors money is getting burned. While the 'long game' is paying all the bills.
my org is like that, and it’s not full of narcissists who fire people, yell at people, and treat others with contempt. no one acts as if they are the arbiter of all decisions, or that they know some untold secret of the universe. we also put things into space and help humankind, so idk mileage may vary i guess.
> Musk drives you like a good highschool sports coach.
That doesn't even sound like a good high school coach, let alone the CEO of a corporation has people who are going to play more than a couple of seasons.
Kinda agreeing, but I have to say sometimes there's a thin line between sport coach and bad leader. You gotta ensure tact and fairness.
I think given Elon's obvious numerous successes, despite this latest frenzy of "Musk Bad", he's objectively a great leader.
You do not get to where he is by being a bad leader. His entire job is leading, despite what people like to think (ie. that he's actually designing rockets or whatever...)
I’d say Musk is the rare combination of a great leader, who also has the ability to learn arbitrary subjects quickly enough to tell whether he’s being bullshitted.
Fair point but I feel there's a large difference between his previous ventures and twitter, this one is purposeless and highly political. We'll see.
Sounds like Bill Gates. He yelled and bullied people to get what he wanted (and he has admitted it). Steve Jobs was also part of this club, more or less.
There is no denying this type of uncivilized abusive leadership works sometimes. It drives off people not suited to it, but results speak for themselves.
Complete opposite approaches work also. I think it's tied to leaders personality. Asshole can't succeed with nice guy strategy, nice guy can't succeed with asshole strategy.
Which successful leaders used the opposite approach ? genuinely curious.
Warren Buffett !
He's mostly an investor, but sometimes he gets involved in the companies - and sometimes he puts his reputation on the line - cf this quote from the time he became the largest Salomon shareholder.
Also Jack Tramiel with his Jack Attacks.
I once worked for a man last name started with an A, who was lovingly referred to as A-Bomb and you never knew what would set him or when he would go off. Thankfully, he retired about half a year after I got there.
It's not your right to yell at someone.
It has nothing to do with rights. It just has to do with consequences.
didn't bill gates and Steve Jobs yell. seems to be common
Domestic violence is common, but doesn't mean people should do it.
It'll be interesting to see how Musk handles negative sentiment regarding him and his IP trending. Stories about burning Teslas and Tesla wrecks trending will be a thing of the past.
On the flip side, boosting the visibility of pro Musk IP content is an inevitability along with unfairly boosting Tesla stock and never-ending SEC investigations.
Well his vision so far for Twitter seems to be to turn it into an anti-woke, advertiser shaming, ad supported platform. I'm sure there are a few people excited about that, but I'm not sure it's as visionary and uniting as something like putting people on Mars.
Is Musk bipolar?
No, but he is impulsive, careless, fraudulent and, when it comes to software, incompetent.
I find analysis of this type petty and stupid. It’s like arguing Doyle Brunson was just really lucky.
How much success, across multiple decades in so many different fields of business and technology, must someone acquire before meeting your standards?
I feel like I’m reading comments on Slashdot about Bill Gates in 1999. But in comparison, Elon Musk is wildly more successful than 1999 Bill Gates.
Agreed. Impulsive, careless, fraudulent? Sure that's fine to have opinions and thoughts on, he's a public figure and we have a right to gossip and all. But incompetent? I feel like you need a bit more factual meat to something like that. That's a stretch. You can fail upwards in a lot of crowded fields, especially software startups, but Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink? Give the man some credit.
I said "on technology, incompetent" and I think that is corroborated by Ashlee Vance's authorized (and highly sympathetic) biography
Perhaps a less petty analysis is to ponder why Tesla is yet to issue any stock dividends.
I think maybe it's not worth much trying to stereotype people into mental diseases to blame for behaviors, until we'd identify the causes and properly characterize those classes. By the way, from what I learn on the Internet, I'd agree with the other comment that he's a jackass.
Personality disorders are not stereotypes. Symptoms are not blamed on the disease; they reveal it. Would you also say, "let's not stereotype someone as disabled by speculating on whether their leg is broken just because we can see them limping and their bone sticking out?" If the symptoms are visible, by all means, let's help the mentally ill by being honest.
"Jackass" is slang for a foolish or stupid person, and as Musk has degrees in Physics and Economics from Penn, I don't think that remotely fits, unless GP was being kind. "Jackass" is also a synonym for "asshole," which is a colloquial term for narcissist.
Related, he talked about being diagnosed with Asperger's before
https://www.axios.com/2022/04/15/elon-musk-aspergers-syndrom...
No, just a jackass.
Edit: Yes, firing 3000 people with lives and families because you paid an obscene amount of money for a company that you didn’t actually want makes you a jackass.
> Yes, firing 3000 people with lives and families
Maybe we need to be more mature.
Twitter was very clearly bloated. Laying off the bloat is pretty much status quo for major acquisitions. There is nothing unusual here.
Are any of the other major tech companies laying off huge percentages of their workforce also "jackasses"???
It’s not “very clear” to this outsider that Twitter was bloated, not that the firings adhere to any particular “debloating” rationale.
Edit: The approach Musk has taken to layoffs also does not evoke maturity.
It was the Twitter's board that forced Musk to buy it.
Twitter's board would have been sued to hell and back if they hadn't made him live up to his contract. They would have been left personally penniless.
Meanwhile, Musk initiated every stage of the acquisition and dictated the terms.
Then it is that omnipotent Mr. Shareholder that could sue the board is the villain here: he knew what Musk was going to do, he knew that Musk wanted to back out, yet he chose to press the board.
This is completely backwards. Did Twitter’s board make him make an offer? I don’t go around making multi-billion dollar offers for things I don’t actually want.
Type II NPD. Musk has covert narcissism. His recent passive-aggressive posts regarding Starlink and Ukraine, plus blaming activists for advertisers leaving Twitter, gives it away. Passive-aggressiveness and blaming are particularly common to Type II. Seeing those, we wouldn't need to look too hard for other Type II NPD symptoms, such public generosity along with being cruel in private, being intolerant of or oversensitive to criticism, smugness, self-absorbtion, self-criticsm, shyness, perfectionism, holding grudges, and all types have strong denial and low empathy. Though if Musk often engages in humiliating others, I have it wrong; that's Type III, toxic. Usually successful individuals will get NPD buttoned up along with becoming fit even though denial is very difficult to overcome.
What would make you think he was bipolar? There are other symptoms, but BPD requires depressions and manias.
I think Elon Musk is trying to be Tony Stark. Tony Stark is a fun character to read about in comic books and see fly around in a movie but he'd be insufferable in the real world. I think he's going to lose his shirt at this dumb Twitter thing and maybe that will be a humble Tony Stark post-Thanos snap style rebirth...
In the comic books he's also an alcoholic. In the first movie he's a rich kid who inherited his wealth, is making a killing selling arms, and only changes his tune after the consequences of his actions lead him to being captured and nearly killed -- where he decides to change his tune and become a one man army, judge jury and executioner unbound by laws.
He's really a bizarre character to idolize in many ways, the real life analogue is a rich asshole who makes people around him's lives worse at the same rate he's making the world worse.
the best way to look at movies is, "the good guys are really the bad guys, and vice versa". Thanos was right, Darth Vader really did bring balance to the Force, and the Alien from Aliens was really just a pacifist who was looking to maintain a secure home.
I agree with the author that there is a good Elon and a bad Elon.
But I think Twitter only gets the bad Elon.
At Tesla, Elon is producing EVs to help save the planet. At SpaceX, he is producing spacecraft to help save humanity. At Twitter, he is making the world a better place for unfounded conspiracy theories and Russian talking points, which he himself promotes.
In the last month, Elon has claimed on Twitter that 1) the attack on Nancy Pelosi's aging husband was due to a dispute with a gay lover; 2) Ukraine, a sovereign nation, should give up its industrial heartland to a bunch of rapists and war criminals; 3) Taiwan, a sovereign nation, should subjugate itself to the Chinese police state.
That is, Twitter employees don't get the visionary. They get an abusive boss who is also bad at filtering information, leaning into stupid theories, and willing to traffic with police states to forward his interests.
Frankly, I miss the good Elon, and I wonder where he went.
* https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-taiwan-china-ukraine-...
* https://www.vice.com/en/article/ake44z/elon-musk-vladimir-pu...
* https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-paul-pelosi-tweets-li...
I don’t buy the premise: it’s not clear to me how prolonging our dependence on personal cars saves the planet, or how anything about space exploration is going to save the billions of humans who live on Earth.
It’s very easy to confuse objects of technical fascination with moral virtue, particularly when our world appears bleak. But Musk has demonstrated no motives other than profit and infamy.
1) Its better to let the fossil fuels burn in a central site to generate energy than to be burned in individual ICE vehicles. Not including renewable energy.
2) SpaceX is not directed to save people in earth, but humanity in general. There is a need to generate other organizations for save earthlings, but it is not SpaceX. -But Musk has demonstrated no motives other than profit and infamy-... Sure.
I think that making humanity a multi-planetary species, by definition, derisks the possibility that humanity will die out, especially if the extra-terrestrial colonies are self-sufficient. I actually don't see how you can logically dispute that. I find Elon's drive to make us multi-planetary totally respectable, and a logical action based on the nuclear and climatic risks we face on Earth.
Making cars electric means that we could swap in an alternative form of fuel, like nuclear, without breaking an economy and society that depends on driving.
I think Musk has demonstrated mixed motives, and in that, he resembles most people. His political and geopolitical opinions are regrettable, and if we wants to operate a large social media platform and appease advertisers of many stripes, he should probably shut up. But I doubt he has the humility or self-awareness to do that.
The vision of space occupation has always come across to me as really stupid. From many scientific points of view it is infeasible, and many philosophical perspectives on top of that. I get the idea of making your vision come true and treating every obstacle as a technicality, but not all problems work that way. Especially not ones that go really far against biology.
> really stupid. From many scientific points of view it is infeasible, and many philosophical perspectives on top of that.
That might be true. But let’s think about it from a larger perspective. Let’s just assume that, however unlikely, we managed to survive next 800 million years on this planet. Once our Sun starts dying, we gotta get out of here anyway. For sure, the only end game for us must be to become an interplanetary species.
Robotic asteroid mining to supply robotic construction of O’Neill cylinders (giant rotating habitats) is feasible with current or near-future technologies. Eventually, over 100-150 years, it should be possible for millions of people to live in space.
Should we do it? Sure, why not? We’ll explore the solar system and beyond. The human race would be able to multiply almost indefinitely, and develop amazing new tech, human like robots, medical cures, art and music, anti-matter propulsion, quantum computers… so much potential.