SpaceX launches Starlink ‘flat high-performance’ dish for moving vehicles
teslanorth.comI was surprised to see this, because I thought a previous FCC regulatory decision limited Starlink terminals to being operational only when stationary.
Some Googling revealed that the FCC reversed this in June of 2022.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/30/23190463/spacex-starlink-...
I think SpaceX simply had never previously asked the FCC to authorize it. Not really a reversal of any particular opinionated stance.
What was the reasoning for FCC's original decision? Why would they try to stop it?
The original decision was this:
SpaceX: "Hey FCC, can we get permitted for stationary satellite dishes?"
FCC: "Yes."
The new decision:
SpaceX: "Hey FCC, can we also get permitted for moving dishes?"
FCC: "Yes."
The FCC didn't try to stop anything, they just weren't asked about moving dishes the first time.
I'm still curious about the legal situation here. Why is it banned by default? I mean other wireless communications are totally fine to use while in motion (HAM, cell service, wifi, CB, GPS, Satellite telephones, etc). Why does the FCC explicitly have to approve this kind of thing? I imagine it is more than bureaucracy?
I don’t think it’s banned by default, but the rules surrounding mobile and fixed differ slightly. Perhaps getting limited regulatory approval for a fixed network would face less regulatory hoops and thus be approved faster.
> Why is it banned by default?
AFAIK all FCC rules on frequency allocation (which is what SpaceX needed) are usually geo-locked. It's a lot easier to commit to fixed transmitters early on with the idea that any specific problems can be dealt with than getting permission to move them around at will.
Also, during this time the FCC has been redoing the rules on the bands they use to try to allow companies this kind of use. So in 2021 they asked for ideas, and SpaceX suggested mobile uplinks as a permissible use. Then, hearings and feedback from a lot of companies occurred.
Since RF spectrum is a very limited resource, everything is approached from a standpoint of "nothing is okay, unless it explicitly is". It is, rightly, tightly managed.
The things you mentioned are either in public bands (HAM, CB) or have long since gotten the same permission (sat phones).
The only reason this is newsworthy is because spacex/starlink. Headlines like "Satellite Phones BANNED (before the FCC approved their application)" don't get clicks.
My experience with Starlink is that it kind of works(I get 50-100Mb bandwidth) but I have multiple(as in 10s) sub-second interruptions every hour.
Dishy view is completely unobstructed. And weather is clear most of the time in California.
As much as I hate Comcast, if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat.
Wait until you get the strange billing from ComCast first.
My mom had it in Florida and I found she had all sorts of extra charges for items and services she never had. There is a reason ComCast has a bad rep.
There's also a reason every terrestrial ISP has bandwidth caps.
"Unlimited" satellite bandwidth is not sustainable, and once the business model changes to acknowledge that, Starlink will join the ranks.
> if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat
Um...duh. Starlink isn't meant to replace your internet where typical options are available. It's meant to give something where there was nothing, or replace much worse satellite internet options.
That’s my experience, yes. I wonder if there are enough such people to make Starlink profitable.
You’d be shocked how many areas outside major metro areas don’t have any broadband options. When we were buying a home recently, we had to carefully search Comcast and Wave’s websites to make sure the home had broadband service. Lots of homes only had satellite internet.
If you add RVs, boats, and planes, there’s an even bigger potential market for Starlink.
I’m in a major metro with no good internet options! I assume the cost of laying down fibre optic is too high due to the buildings, roads, etc.
Seriously considering Starlink instead of old copper.
Worldwide? Definitely. Enough that also have the resources to pay? Not 100% sure, but I would imagine so. I think I read 500,000 Australians alone live in places with very little internet connection, or are currently served with Geo-Sync internet heavily subsidized by our government.
I’ve experienced these pauses as well but they’ve only been problematic on real time video calls in practice. I wouldn’t trade my fiber for full time Starlink but I would definitely choose it over any Comcast offering (for personal use)
I use starlink here in the UK. I don't get any drops and I spend probably around 4 hours a day on video calls. I've heard people say it can be regional though.
I get these 0.5s and 0.7s drops as well (maybe 10-20 per hour), in Texas. To be honest, I don't even notice the sub-second drops.
I only notice them during ssh sessions or voip/zoom calls.
They don’t affect web browsing or streaming movies
Try using MOSH; that will eliminate the problem for your shell sessions.
> As much as I hate Comcast, if 100Mb Comcast was available in my area I would trade it in a heartbeat.
And that's expected. Elon Musk has publicly stated before that Starlink has no plans for competing with Comcast.
Have you raised that with starlink support?
Horizon to horizon in all directions?
A friend has regular "RV" starlink, and uses it all the time in motion strapped on top of his spare tire on the rear tailgate of his SUV. It works flawlessly.... except he's done a TON of off road driving on bad corrugations, which eventually killed it - I guess the internal motors are not designed for those kind of vibrations.
SpaceX sent him a new dish free of charge.
What type of warranty does the dish come with? Also, do they have some mechanism to detect if it was used "incorrectly" similar to how old iPhones used to have a color changing strip inside to detect water damage?
I have no idea, but he said they were super easy about it - no worries, just send the old one in and we'll send you a new one, free.
We both figured it's product testing, and they didn't seem put out at all.
(a) is it the same phased array antenna as dishy v2?
(b) is power usage improved? at 90 Watts dishy v2 is not perfect for an RV.
(c) dishy v2 has pretty slow startup time. It might be less than perfect if that thing required 10 minutes of unobstructed view to bootstrap.
I have mixed experiences with dishyv2 tech. I've had situations when it was flawless with half-obstructed view. I've had moments when it had hiccups without any obstructions.
Anyway, very interesting. Obviously this is a big deal for many applications.
There's not really an issue with power on moving vehicles except sail boats.
It is an issue when your parked off grid and run off battery, 90w is significant. My 5G router with wifi 6 pulls under 10w direct 12v DC. It looks like the flat dish is actually 110-150w and requires AC power, so not great for off grid usage as inverter losses will add another 10-20w on top.
A tangential comment. I opened the page on a non ad blocked browser and my eyes burnt. I am OK with ads but this is next level intrusive.
You made me try and now I regret it. How could they imagine anyone would want to read their page stuffed with all that garbage is beyond me.
Is it going to end up in Tesla truck and cars ? Tesla is building an army of connected robots on wheels.
Tesla vehicles and in fact most of today's cars and trucks have mobile connectivity, so the army of connected robots on wheels is already a thing.
Not sure if the current fleet talk much. With ubiquitous connectivity, maybe we could have all those vehicles talking to each other to act collectively.
Anybody know what RF frequency it operates on? Would have impact on FCC rules. I'm guessing 24GHz or thereabouts based on size.
The majority of RV/vanlifers do not need internet in motion, they just want a regular static 12V dish that can be mounted fixed and flush to the roof/racks like any solar panel.
$2500 for such a dish is the wrong target market. The only customer that needs internet in motion are things like boats, planes, trains and buses.
Normal dishy works fine in motion so while it would be nice to have a lower priced option more suitable for mounting that doesn't work while in motion, such a distinction would be software only, and that always feels scummy.
How would you feel if you paid $700 for a vehicle mountable dish and then had the option to pay $2000 to "upgrade" it to allow to use it while it was in motion?
That's the sort of thing that really bothers some people. Hacker News celebrated when New Jersey proposed banning that sort of thing in cars.
This press release seems pretty light on information. This could be a phased array antenna according to this review (which seems to be focused on airplane-mounted devices):
https://www.bcsatellite.net/blog/flat-panel-antennas-state-o...
> "Currently the most popular alternative to Gimbal antennas are Phased Array Antenna flat panel antennas, which are composed of many radiating elements that can be thought of as numerous, tiny, fixed antennas. Each one has a phase shifter which forms beams by shifting the phase of the signal emitted from each of the radiating elements (tiny antennas). This provides a constructive/destructive interference which may be used to steer the beam(s) in a particular direction. This entire process is all electric, so the beam direction can be controlled and pointed instantaneously in any direction. It is able to track the movement of a satellite in the sky, regardless of the movement of the car, boat, airplane, or train."
The current Starlink antenna is phased-array.
Yes, all starlink user terminals are phased arrays.
They have to be due to how rapidly the sats move in and out of view.
Also frequency re-use. They will talk on the same frequency to multiple ground terminals, but pointed different directions from the satellites perspective.
Did not know that, neat. Phased arrays are so cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs2QcycggWU check this out, excellent teardown explanation about how the antenna works.
The math used to determine the phase offsets to steer the beam is absurd.
The flat panel is a phased array dead give away. The performance and cost advantages of digital beamforming are such that you can pretty much assume any high tech antenna is a multi channel array.