Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew
ukaviation.newsMore background here:
https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-fires-pilot/
https://viewfromthewing.com/qatar-airways-firing-pilots-and-...
It's suggested in the first article that the pilot had failed to pass the necessary exams:
"The other side of the story here is that the pilot has spent the past six years completing a two year training course, and still hasn’t passed any of the tests necessary to become a pilot. The airline became fed up, and since they’re firing pilots anyway and trying to cut costs, they also decided to terminate their contract with her at this point."
Fair play to me!
Why would they hire someone so incapable in the first place?
Interviews and tests don't determine how competent someone is going to be performing a job in future, passing candidates are just as likelty to be as competent or non competent. What you should really be asking is that how come they end up hiring competent people in first place? Because those who apply are already have knowledge or experience to help them be competent in first place. I have seen some people who interview and pass tests well end up being useless and sometimes those who initially don't present well end up being competent. How would you determine competency in the first place? In many cases with enough practice and assistance even the most incompetent can perform the required tasks successfully. There is no test to show that anyone is going to be competent or not in future. At above some intelligence level everyone is just as likely to end up being competent in performing any job, but the time that they have reached the position of applying for a specialised job they are likely to be competent in.
By COVID standards, Qatar has actually been one of the better-off airlines in the Gulf, since (unlike the UAE) they still allow transit passengers and have been making some money flying stranded people around, even to the extent of putting on entirely new destinations like Brisbane. But obviously their business has still taken a huge hit and they've got a lot of excess capacity to shed. As always, PPrune has the goss: https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/288896-joining-qatar-airw...
But this has always been the flip side of doing business in the Gulf: you're paid well, but once you're no longer useful, you'll be discarded without a second thought. This happened during the GFC as well and there were plenty of stories of once high-flying expats sleeping in their cars.
Are there any comprehensive websites that are documenting this type of behaviour for the future - like Glassdoor but for consumers and investors?
Given an equal choice between buying something from two companies I'd choose the one that had been nicer to its employees and community.
Case in point - I own a (quite small) number of shares in UK retailer Hotel Chocolat. I'd probably have sold them if it wasn't for their apparently decent policy: https://www.hotelchocolat.com/uk/corona-virus-updates.html
In the case of Qatar, you just have to read the news.
e.g., https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fifa-qa...
I considered doing one at one point, then saw my domain idea was already taken. http://covidshame.com/
They don't have much info about their project. I kind of assume they won't follow up.
I think this clause is standard for cadets. I don’t agree with it but I remember looking into becoming a cadet when I was much younger.
I distinctly remember EasyJet: you basically had to go to a bank to get the loan for the whole cost of your pilot training (300k GBP iirc) in your name. If you failed to pass any of the mandatory exams and steps during your training, you’d be kicked out and have to repay the loan back on your own. If you made it as a pilot, EasyJet would deduct part of your salary to pay back.
It seemed like a very shitty arrangement for the cadet/pilot wannabe where you basically shoulder most of the risk for the privilege of working as a pilot for EasyJet.
I didn’t enroll to become a pilot. I don’t regret it.
It's an interesting situation.
Qatar Airlines pilot requirements are ICAO ATP, which you can convert to an FAA license, or just go fly in China.
(It's more difficult to go the opposite way, from FAA to European (EASA.))
You will never hear of such a situation where the pilot is billed for ab initio training in the US because US airlines do very little such training, if any. When US airlines partner with a flight training academy, they just promise to let graduates apply. :)
Sometimes US airlines will pay for (jet) type ratings, which cost in the $20k range, and charge the pilot if they leave within a year.
This really sucks for those affected. It's one thing if an organisation chooses to stop funding their employees' education further, but to sack them and then demand compensation for what was supposed to be under "scholarship"? Ugh. Shitty.
I can't access the page. Can someone kindly provide a summary?
Here’s an archive.is mirror: http://archive.is/5E8qO
That’s it, I’m cancelling my summer holiday to Qatar.
I can't tell if you're serious, but Qatar has had a long history of migrant worker abuses and exploitation, perhaps most globally publicized due to the FIFA World Cup controversies. This Qatar Airways incident is rather benign by comparison. Migrant/foreign workers make up almost 90% of their workforce according to this article, which honestly makes much of Qatar seem dependent on something resembling indentured servitude:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-a...
Don't worry, it was a joke! I thought that would be more obvious given the current lockdown in most countries.
Ha, thanks for clarifying! I wasn't sure and perhaps should have taken it more lightly, but then I couldn't have attempted to make a point. :)
There’s a word you have skirted around: “slavery.” Qatar is a slave trafficking state and deserves a total embargo far more than Iran or Cuba does.
It's a disgrace that all countries are not already boycotting the FIFA championship in Qatar. Slavery is just one of the many things wrong with the decision to hold the championship there, though it's definitely the worst.
Lawyer up.
that was my initial reaction, like "ok this would not stand at any court". then I realized that it probably affects employees who live and are citizens of Qatar or similar nations in which 1. I have no idea about their legal system 2. and the only idea I have from what I see in the news etc. about worker rights etc. is not the best
Isn’t it Qatar where you go to jail if you fail to pay your debts? Or maybe it’s only Saudi Arabia, I can’t remember. And this was the reason why the city was apparently littered with perfectly good but abandoned Ferrari and lamborghini cars.
I wouldn't pay anything if I were this guy.
He has the advantage of holding the balance in his account, and this matter doesn't stick in front of any court. So good luck to QAW to see the color of this money.
I guess this will be won, if at all, in the court of popular opinion
Training was done in 2013 apparently. Still hasn't paid it by working for 7 years? Makes no sense.
"The other side of the story here is that the pilot has spent the past six years completing a two year training course, and still hasn’t passed any of the tests necessary to become a pilot. The airline became fed up, and since they’re firing pilots anyway and trying to cut costs, they also decided to terminate their contract with her at this point."
He hasn’t worked, he’s been training and dicking around. Imagine just being paid to learn about your job, without ever really producing any value, for the past seven years.
well based on the comments on this story they should just work as a full time poster on HN, not reading the story by automatically knee jerk responding how vile the company is.
this story comes down to a contract dispute, the pilot signed an agreement as part of being given training and if the company is guilty of anything it is guilty of letting it go for this many years.
sometimes the little guy is at fault
Flyer forums have a lot of information on work conditions regarding airlines around the world (usually the ones that attract expats).
From what I remember this company does not get the better reviews, even when compared with other companies from the same region.
This is pretty standard in many countries and industries.
Really, we need a law that turns it into a loan automatically with reasonable terms at the end of employment. But other than that, this is no different to any other student loan. Boomers killed free education, so now everyone pays one way or another.
How did I kill free education?
Actually not most countries strictly limit /regulate this sort behaviour and if your made redundant I suspect that the employer would not be able to recover anything.
Unfortunately employment practices in that part of the world are Horrific - its just normally poor navvies employed on building sites get the worst of it - see some of the coverage of the word cup construction in Quatar
It's not illegal in the UK either I'm afraid. In fact, it's standard.
Im not saying this is nice or positive. Just that it's totally legal and pretty standard.
I know because my first proper employer did NOT put this clause in my contract. Then they tried to introduce it for me and others after adding it for new employees. So I (we, there were 5 of us) actually sought legal advice.
The lawyer was surprised it wasn't in the original contract (and it's been in all the employment contracts I've signed since). Since it wasn't there, they couldn't enforce it or make us sign it. So we were lucky.
Its a hard thing to decide because the alternative is banning this sort of program. Then the only people who get to be pilots are the ones with 130k to spare...
An important distinction here is surely between voluntary departure, and being laid off. What did the clause you mention cover?
Seems like a fair concern for a company not to have their freshly trained employees get poached by the competition the day they start being useful. (Although IMO it would be better to structure it as a lower salary while in training and a bonus which vests in a year.) But people they have decide to fire is a different matter.
Morally there is a difference but legally there isn't. In the uk, the clauses I have seen all say (some variation of) "leave our employ for any reason".
I can understand why. If you don't have to pay 130k back as long as you get fired, that's a huge incentive to get yourself fired right?
I think it's a dumb problem caused by governments failing to fund training/education. But as long as that's the case, people need to read their contracts and only sign things they understand...
OK, thanks. I am surprised though. Doesn't lots of employment law make a distinction between "fired with cause" and "downsizing"?
Lots of questions, but also: Can they actually collect this?
I guess my proposal of "half pay while training & a post-dated check" probably lines up with "leave our employ for any reason".
I’m honestly not sure about collecting these debts.
In the UK they could technically be discharged through bankruptcy. But that takes a long time and ruins your life (you’ll be barred from a lot of carriers and lose basically everything).
In Qatar, it’s more complex. They use a weird mix of sharia and more western law. I’m not convinced these loans would be sharia compliant so maybe there is some wriggle room there? On the other hand suing the state airline in an absolute monarchy with no judicial independence may be difficult. I don’t think Qatar has a concept of bankruptcy (as all credit should be secured and limited against collateral). So they’re between a rock and a hard place.
Maybe they can flee and find a country (countries) that won’t enforce a Qatar civil judgement? But I think the west generally will so not sure where that leaves...
A manager at a previous employer thought it would be a good idea to get people to sign a letter saying we'd be liable for training costs if we left within X months of taking the training.
Like most people I simply ignored the request!
Most of the training I was getting was hyper specific to particular financial/ERP applications that if I left I'd be running away from ever seeing those applications again....
Is it not still the case that that almost all commercial pilots come from people leaving the military or has that changed?
I don't know to be honest. I don't think so, as there are really not many military pilots compared to commercial? But I'm no expert.
Quickie edit...
Google says the RAF has 1830 pilots and the Navy about 200 more but the UK has over 10,000 commercial pilots. So I guess at least half the commercial pilots trained outside the military. So they're either self funding or getting these employer funded loans?
That hasn’t been the case in decades. When TWA was expanding they had a large pool of WWII pilots. Training for military pilots is very expensive as well. They won’t want to waste it on someone who’s only sticking around 5 years.
I did say "strictly limit /regulate" and just because some one puts something in a contract doesn't make it enforceable (justiciable)
And in the UK you would NOT want to cross BALPA (pilots union) if an airline tried this.
>>Boomers killed free education, so now everyone pays one way or another.
This anglo-centric assumption is killing me on HN. My "boomer" parents were deep in a communist state at my age and they could only dream of the quality of life that we enjoy today. But hey they are "boomers" so fuck them, right?
They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon. In China for instance, the same generation were basically the oppose: they were given nothing and built a much better standard of living for their children.
Sorry to be anglocentric. I try not to be, but it slips through sometimes. :)
> They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon.
Your original comment is still super US-centric. I live in a western European country. In my country, the "boomer" generation and their parents built the welfare state that gave me free education from kindergarten to PhD. I'm forever grateful for that, and the social safety nets they put in place.
I live in the UK. We have a higher density of boomers and they’re more boomerish than the US. Like all social categories, ymmv!
Out of interest, what country do you live in? I thought all of Western Europe had welfare etc before the boomers took over?