Dow falls 2,200 points, trading halted, as rate cut fails to calm markets
nbcnews.comAll: partisan flamewar is not welcome on this site, so please don't.
Pouring fuel on flames is an understandable but not a helpful stress response. The idea here is to do better for as long as we can.
Pointing out extreme economic inequity is no more partisan than pointing out scientifically measured global temperature increases.
Just because one side makes claims at odds with reality doesn't mean it's partisan to point out the absurdity of those claims.
You might have a point if people were simply pointing out facts instead of slamming enemies and pouring on the snark.
Even then, though, years of this job have taught me that everyone overestimates the overlap between their views and the pure truth, and that this effect grows, I would even say exponentially, with the intensity of one's commitment to a topic. To contribute well to a thoughtful discussion, each of us needs to take this effect into account and find some way to compensate for it.
What if I told you those are the facts...
I would say that's a category error. But I'm not sure I understand your meaning, or you mine.
So we should just bury our heads in the sand and ignore President Trump's blatant lies and misinformation about a deadly pandemic because calling him out offends Republicans who are responsible for putting the deranged lunatic into power in the first place? "Hey, you know the people who are destroying the world and have spent the last four years engaging in constant vitriol toward anyone to the left of them? Please just stay calm and respect their opinion." Laughable.
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
I don't think monetary policy is going to fix this. There is a pandemic and the ostensible leader of the free world literally got on TV and said "I don't take responsibility at all" about it. People are freaked the eff out.
Leader of the free world? Don't make me laugh. It's not 1995 any more, Harrison Ford and Bill Pullman figures are not in charge.
I don't recall Angela Merkel saying any such thing
Let's not forget, he called the pandemic a "Democrat hoax".
I'll repost my comment from another thread:
"Unfortunately the CDC's existence, purpose, and funding is controlled by the government. Thus any discussion of their actions becomes embroiled in the political tribalism that dominates comments.
The staunch defenders of the current administration are often successful at shutting down criticism of their leader and their party's actions. Which is doing this country a huge disservice because right now we need to be fixing these issues, not continually arguing about blame."
People responding to this comment, please stop jumping to the defense of Trump. Stop whatabouting and trying to stop people from voicing their concerns. We've got a once-in-a-century problem facing the USA and the world, and we need to put aside knee-jerk circling-of-the-wagons to protect your party/team/tribe/side.
And yet he stopped flights from China before anyone else called for it and was called racist. Check your assumptions.
Testing was botched, a lot of his statements have been terrible, but the travel bans were in the “do something that seems premature” category and deserves recognition, since it will have saved lives.
I'm not sure it was premature given it happened a week after China quarantined Wuhan.
Both statements are intentionally taken out of context for cheap partisan political points. Look in the mirror to see the problem and ask yourself what it is you are trying to accomplish with this behavior.
For anyone curious, this is a more full context:
"One of my people came up to me and said, “Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.” That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was not a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax. But we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We have 15 people in this massive country and because of the fact that we went early. We went early, we could have had a lot more than that. We’re doing great. Our country is doing so great. We are so unified. We are so unified. The Republican party has never ever been unified like it is now."
Sane people don't communicate this way. Even people who perform poorly when publicly speaking (such as a GW Bush, who was famous for verbal stumbling) don't begin to express themselves so chaotically with spoken words.
It's exceedingly difficult to understand this man, and I daresay that anyone who claims to really understand what he's saying (meaning) is choosing to live a fantasy.
This is true of all disastrous leaders, the provide no real leadership apart from publicly courting their acolytes.
The actual leadership they should be providing (giving clear direction to those who will be acting on their wishes) is so lacking that all the decision makers below them have to make up their own mind what the "leader" actually wants. And so ensues chaos.
I realize this is probably your point - but the statement is even WORSE with context!
Yeah, see, no they're literally not. Like, you can see them yourself (check the sibling comment for the full-context tantrum) and the argument doesn't hang, except insofar as you can claim that a guy who's regularly sundowning at noon can't have context. Which is a fair argument for cutting your racist uncle some reluctant slack, but not your President.
It's very curious how the guy's constant reality-averse shit-talking of everyone who doesn't give him everything he wants, now-now-now, is somehow not "cheap partisan points," though.
I agree that now isn't the time, let's not argue blame.
That being said, the president could have handled his response better. Poorly chosen words at a poor time make for a piss poor performance. It's, at the very least, very unfortunate.
I don’t think it’s just words anymore. It’s a failure of executive action, things did not get done
Systems > words
In this specific case, the context is fortunately irrelevant.
The statements mean exactly what they say.
fwiw, he was referring to the botched rollout of testing, not the whole thing or the market. [n]
[n] https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/03/13/trump-...
Would you like to provide some context? Not the OP, but it seems that this needs a national level response, and my impression is that the President is not handling things well.
I haven't seen any better or worse ideas from either side of the political or national spectrum. As far as I'm concerned, every leader and every country seem to be acting in earnest, looking for their best solution.
Now is not the time to lose your mind and regress into confirmation bias. Listen to your leaders (National all the way down the line), follow the instructions, try to help everyone recover. In this way, you'll likely live to push your political views another day.
>the ostensible leader of the free world literally got on TV and said
This doesn't mean the US president the way it used to mean it.
I think Merkel has a greater claim to this title than Trump.
We need to dig into the fiscal policy toolbox.
I agree. The Fed has no [legal] bullets left to fire.
Not everyone is "freaked the fuck out" due to what Trump says or does. Unlike many folks, I never placed faith or trust in government to handle any crisis of magnitude. I worry about what I can control: my own actions and how that will affect my family who lives with me. I'm not looking for a savior in Daddy Government.
I'm worried because most people are irrational and highly emotional, not logical. They make decisions against their best interests all the time. In a pandemic, that forces me to be overly cautious, despite that not necessarily being my normal disposition. The irrational risks are, in some sense, greater than the rational risks.
After it’s over, we should investigate everyone at the CDC and related agencies, everyone in past administrations, investigate President Trump and his cabinet, investigate those tied to the corporations who outsourced our abilities to China, and determine why no one could anticipate this.
Why/how there weren’t tests for months. If only we could blame this on one person, then the solution would be easy — but this is a systemic problem.
Don't look further:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0...
> The top White House official responsible for leading the U.S. response in the event of a deadly pandemic has left the administration, and the global health security team he oversaw has been disbanded under a reorganization by national security adviser John Bolton.
> The abrupt departure of Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer from the National Security Council means no senior administration official is now focused solely on global health security. Ziemer’s departure, along with the breakup of his team, comes at a time when many experts say the country is already underprepared for the increasing risks of a pandemic or bioterrorism attack.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/nsc-pandemic-office-t...
> The U.S. government’s slow and inadequate response to the new coronavirus underscores the need for organized, accountable leadership to prepare for and respond to pandemic threats.
The administration has essentially decided to kick the driver out and steer blind since 2018.
"These smug pilots have lost touch with regular passengers like us. Who thinks I should fly this plane?"
https://ipa.org.au/ipa-review-articles/rebelling-fake-expert...
Yep.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/28/michael-bl... has a more nuanced look at it than "Trump fired all the experts," but it is telling that avian flu and SARS had a completely different response a decade ago.
It's not always political. However, sometimes it is.
I don't understand the reasoning behind halting trade after significant drops in index value. If people significantly devalue a stock (or stocks), why would halting trade change that? Halting trade could contribute to devaluation, since it could encourage capital flight to exchanges that aren't halted or have predictable trading hours. If I knew I might not be able to trade tomorrow that's a new incentive to sell now and trade elsewhere.
Halting only happens for fifteen minutes. It's meant to be a speed bump, an opportunity to assess, "wait, do I really want to sell right now?" If the market drops a lot, they'll halt for the day. Gives leaders a chance to make adjustments.
Are you referring to automated trading? How can someone sell without assessing whether they want to sell? Isn't that a contradiction?
For example, if a grocery store is normally open, and I go there to buy groceries only to found out they're closed... I still need groceries. I would just be forced to wait until they're open or go get them from somewhere else. With that reasoning, I would expect halting trades to encourage capital flight to exchanges with liquidity and predictable operation. People prefer to shop at grocery stores that have predictable hours and stocked shelves.
Maybe but that assumed that what your haulting isn't just an algorithm set by someone...which is almost always is. The algorithm will just continue after the 15m to do what it was doing previously.
It's to break the feedback loop where the only reason people are selling is because everyone else is selling.
How does that work? After exchanges reopen, the last known trades are still sells.
I reckon the Dow (and the FTSE100) are down about 35% on a month ago.
After 9/11 they both fell about 10%.
In 2008 the Dow dropped about 40% in a month, and about 50% in 6 months.
Just imagine - given the complete ineptitude at top levels - this may be just the beginning. That's the scary part. Our "just in time" economy getting destroyed by a supply chain disruption that doesn't respond to monetary policy changes.
No real solutions until credible leadership takes charge.
For example: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
And that would be?
Michael Pence?
Bernie Sanders?
Joe Biden? or, dare I say it,
Hilary Clinton?
This is a small crisis. Real leadership required.
Someone who can roll back the pandemic? Do you know such a leader? Perhaps we could resurrect King Canute:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Canute_and_the_tide
At least he could demonstrate to the great unwashed masses that sometimes even excellent leadership is no cure.
When lost it's possible to emulate and learn from others, if one has an open mind.
For example: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
None of this really matters. What matters is when people (non-shareholders, non <1%ers) pass that tipping point which they already live so close to.
They won't get paid because they'll be home sick, or told not to come in; so they won't have "hours" on their timesheets. They don't have any safety net.
They will miss rent payments en masse. Small business property companies (landlords) will suddenly have a cash flow problem and won't be able to make their mortgage payments.
Enough little people will stop having any money and spending any money, and all that will be left is the imaginary money in the stock market and the quantitatively-eased-up banks - none of which does anything useful for the little people.
This will create a very interesting situation that truly will threaten the current way of things in certain skewed capitalist countries. What will come out of this will surely be a lot more socialist (or rather, gains being distributed more equally amongst the population instead of going to the top 0.1%). The top 0.1% will not suffer, because honestly what is the difference between 100M net worth and 1B net worth.
This is absolutely the key - unless we rapidly deploy a safety net we're going to see hourly workers across many sectors lose their income. A sudden spike in not being able to pay rents, buy food, take care of their children.
Unless we do something, we're going to see a rise in evictions, suicides, and civil unrest.
Strangely sending an autographed chart to a news organization celebrating a quick pump of the stock market 30 minutes before close has not fixed all of our problems.
There is no leadership on this issue. Health leaders are urging isolation while at the same time elected leaders from a certain party are going on TV and twitter and urging people to go out to restaurants and bars. The president has been telling his supporters that there is no problem in the US while thousands are dying in Europe. With no captain is anyone surprised the ship appears to be drifting? Pence appears to be doing his best but he is clearly handcuffed.
As the situations at airports are proving there is literally zero true planning going on. No one figured out that if you announce a major travel ban that people will come flooding home from virus hot spots. Thousands of people jammed together before being released back into the US.
Soon companies are going to be forced to start massive layoffs just to survive, especially the travel and retail industries. We are then going to have tens of thousands of our lowest paid and least resource secure people suddenly without jobs. The bills will continue though. The government though appears to show no regard for individuals and is instead focused only on stock market numbers. Not to mention many of these same people suddenly have kids at home with the schools closed.
We need to a massive stimulus for individuals, put a moratorium on mortgage and car payments, put cash in peoples hands or this is going to get out of hand fast. Due to our so called "rugged individualism" in the US, we have lines around the corner at gun stores as people fantasize about gunning down those rendered desperate from what is going on while our European neighbors are pitching in to help each other.
wonderwonder says> "There is no leadership on this issue."
There is an abundance of leadership: however, in many instances the leadership is unnecessary and/or ineffectual. One underlying problem is that those of us brought up as political science majors think they should, indeed, _must_ do something, anything! Better that they wait, watch, proceed with caution and steer within their legal limits.
wonderwonder says> "Health leaders are urging isolation while at the same time elected leaders from a certain party are going on TV and twitter and urging people to go out to restaurants and bars."
Here you paint with a broad brush, smearing all Republicans because of the statements/actions of a handful. Shame, shame. And if those few truly believe that the situation is not as bad as you believe, well then, what would you do? Incarcerate them? Is it not better to merely correct or chastise those who are wrong rather than use them as an instrument to slur millions of innocent people?
wonderwonder says> "thousands are dying in Europe".
It is about one and one half thousand dead right now. More will die of course. "Thousands"? Why exaggerate so? The situation is bad, by why alarm when alarm does no good, indeed harms?
wonderwonder says> "With no captain is anyone surprised the ship appears to be drifting? Pence appears to be doing his best but he is clearly handcuffed..
Vague, poetic, and simply wrong. All those who know what to do are doing it ASAP. Pence is handcuffed because he is the vice president and has no assigned tasks other than what the President allows. He's a backup drive for the President: if the President dies Pence will be plugged in and powered up. Until then he'd be foolish to take a pro-active role.
wonderwonder says> " there is literally zero true planning going on. ".
Everybody who _can_ plan is planning. There is likely too much planning and not enough paying attention to what is in front of us. You are not privy to the planning (probably for good reason - people will take advantage of such situations to make themselves rich or even, dare I say, gain some obscure political advantage!-). "*
I could go on but I've made my point. Better to condense your political views into a post 1/5 the length, omitting the misleading and/or false parts. Sadly, when i reread the post, I find little that does not mislead. You are clearly literate; you can pen a sentence well; you can do much better.
Not sure where I smeared all Republicans. I clearly stated 'elected leaders from a certain party'. Rep. Devin Nunes, Kevin Stitt of Oklahoma, David Clarke (whatever he is), all are encouraging people to go out. This is a fact. I did not say all or even most; but to dispute this makes no sense. Please don't put words in my mouth.
As of this moment, ~1,800 known deaths in Europe. My apologies for overstating by 10% and causing panic, end of day tomorrow I will be accurate.
Edit: we have now unfortunately reached over 2,000 a couple hours after this post.
I'm not really sure what you mean about the majority of your other points regarding planning, leadership and too much planning. Bad planning and poor, ill defined leadership is not exactly a major win over no leadership and no planning.
Either way, I wish you and yours the best during the weeks / months to come.