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Administration Using the Full Power of the Surveillance State on Whistleblowers

theintercept.com

318 points by humantiy 7 years ago · 139 comments

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komali2 7 years ago

> with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States

There are two versions of the United States.

1. The People of. The ones that benefit from whistleblowers. They are not injured when classified information is distributed - they get valuable insight they don't normally get into the doings of their employees (government officials that take their salary from taxes). The ones upon whose whims the government has power, and allegedly upon whose whims that power can be revoked.

2. The Government of. This is the actual entity of power in the USA, and probably has been forever (though the way the Executive branch reacted to union riots makes me wonder - it was genuinely concerned it was about to be deposed, I wonder if that was a valid fear?) This is injured when word gets out about it breaking its own laws - it makes the USA look bad, it destroys trust and thus the ability for the government to maintain control of the people, etc. This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must. Anybody challenging this power is an enemy of #2, even if they aren't an enemy of #1. Great examples are some of our industry's favorite persons of interest, namely Snowden, Manning. Back in the day it was Civil Rights activists (note I'm not drawing a comparison between current leaks and that era, just saying it's another example of enemies of #2 but not #1).

As per the article, the line "be used to the injury of the USA" is obviously being interpreted by the current administration to mean "to the injury of #2" above.

  • drak0n1c 7 years ago

    There is a dichotomy in the government between elected representatives and unelected bureaucrats. The "deep state" exists but it is not nearly as malicious as popularly portrayed. At worst, those who make their careers as unelected bureaucrats and federal officers may occasionally be self-protecting and rationalize their decisions in terms of the trolley problem as for the greater national good, and are overly confident in their ability to discern what that is.

    • vkou 7 years ago

      Most unelected bureaucrats only have a job at the whims of elected representatives. Your vote for the bureaucrats, via proxy of your representative.

      I'm not sure why people have a hard time grasping this concept, when they grasp the concept of representative democracy (Where you vote for new legislature, or for supreme court appointments, or for executive actions, via proxy of voting for a representative of congress, or a president.)

      I can only assume that it's a defense mechanism, where you can blame the boogieman of the deep state when the candidate you voted for does not deliver us to a land of milk and honey, and turns out to be an all-around shitty human being.

      • merpnderp 7 years ago

        This has been on a trend of less and less true as Congress continues to abdicate its responsibilities to bureaucrats in the Executive office.

        It doesn't matter which party they vote for as much of the day to day lives of citizens is determined by people who never stood for election, and barely answer to someone who did.

        • js2 7 years ago

          Congress is 535 people and is filled with relatively little expertise[1]. The United States has a population of 330M and is the largest and most advanced economy in the world. Of course Congress has to delegate to executive agencies. This is not abdication.

          Abdication is letting lobbyists and "model legislation" outfits author the laws which legislators have been known to almost literally just rubber stamp.

          [1] Just to pick on one representative, because I'm familiar with him, this guy has no college degree past an AA, and his career experience is running a restaurant and real estate development. I would hope he'd delegate running the country to someone more experienced than himself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Meadows_(North_Carolina_p...

          • jfengel 7 years ago

            As the guy who said "we are going to send Mr. Obama home to Kenya" I doubt Meadows has a very broad-minded approach to delegating responsibility to those with more experience and expertise.

            I wouldn't automatically discount the value that a restauranteur or real estate developer could bring to office. At least it would bring a bit of diversity of opinion compared to the roomful of lawyers. Though in this case, we're experiencing the opposite problem: people who have absolutely no idea how legislation is done or how the government functions, and who cannot be convinced that they're not experts in every domain they touch.

            It would be nice if people came to DC with the intent of listening, discussing, and coming to conclusions together. But the system is adversarial by design, and grows more adversarial with each passing year.

          • ceejayoz 7 years ago

            > Congress is 535 people and is filled with relatively little expertise.

            That's like calling the Executive Branch one person (currently filled by someone with extremely little expertise).

            Congress includes bureaucratic organizations staffed by career experts like the Government Accountability Office. They used to have the Office of Technology Assessment until it was killed off by ideologues. They also enjoy ready access to experts from the various agencies.

            > Of course Congress has to delegate to executive agencies. This is not abdication.

            They've very clearly abdicated their responsibilities to the Executive in things like war powers and surveillance oversight. They are supposed to serve as a co-equal branch of government and as a check on Executive power.

            • js2 7 years ago

              Fair enough and I don't disagree at all on your last point, but I was really addressing the delegation to executive agencies to write regulations as part of executing the laws passed by congress. I do not consider that abdication.

          • jachee 7 years ago

            Abdication is a single man stonewalling all remotely-progressive legislation from even reaching a vote in the Senate.

            • jki275 7 years ago

              Well, it's not one man, it's 53 men and women, and that's not abdication it's politics -- as practiced by both sides when in power.

              • jachee 7 years ago

                Look into Mitch McConnell's record—or rather lack thereof—for allowing House-passed bills onto the Senate floor. He's one man undermining the spirit of our government for his own political agenda.

                • jki275 7 years ago

                  Look at Reid's.

                  Don't pretend that one party doesn't have a political agenda. That would be silly.

                • jki275 7 years ago

                  Another note - wasting senate time on a bill that cannot pass is not necessary and there’s no point in doing it - for either party - beyond a desire to grandstand. Everyone in congress has a political agenda.

                  • jachee 7 years ago

                    I'd argue that each Senator's sole job is to debate and vote on legislation as a representative of their state—not their SuperPAC-backed party bloc.

                    Wasting their time is paying them to not do their job because a single person's will is preventing it from being possible.

                    The debate and voting is the entire point of the system. For both parties.

                    • jki275 7 years ago

                      You can argue that all day long, but the fact of the matter is that there is limited time and a bill that has zero chance of passage is wasting everyone's time and not getting the actual business of congress done.

                      That's how both parties have done business for decades, it's not a new thing from McConnell. Most of GW's nominees were never brought to a hearing or vote by a Democratic senate. The senate can bring any bill or nominee to the floor if they have enough support -- the majority leader can't keep anything from a vote if it has enough support to pass.

        • Spooky23 7 years ago

          Hogwash. The elected officials absolutely have control of the institutions that they are responsible for.

          “Deep State” nonsense is a trope that is just plain dumb. Brought to you by the same people who cry and whine about judicial activism and appoint people specifically to change the law.

        • vkou 7 years ago

          Those bureaucrats are appointed at the whim of the President, and occasionally through a senate confirmation, both of which are elected offices.

          > and barely answer to someone who did.

          Their hiring is done by elected officials. Their employment and power, aside from a few positions, which are fixed-term, is contingent on the whims of those elected officials.

          Just because Congress has been very busy with abdicating all responsibility for governing the country to the executive (Works great when Obama's in charge, because you can blame him for the milk going sour, works great when Trump's in charge, because he can take all the bad PR), doesn't mean that the bureaucrats don't answer to anyone.

          • ceejayoz 7 years ago

            > Their hiring is done by elected officials.

            No, hiring is largely done by other civil service personnel. The Secretary of State isn't deciding who works in the cafeteria - there's a number of tiers of career employees between him and that decision.

            • Spooky23 7 years ago

              Irrelevant.

              The Secretary is accountable, and has people working for him or her who serve at the Secretary’s pleasure.

              • ceejayoz 7 years ago

                Irrelevant.

                Most of the people working in the State department do not serve at the Secretary’s pleasure.

                • Spooky23 7 years ago

                  The bosses do. Government employees don’t just run around and do whatever.

                  • ceejayoz 7 years ago

                    Those bosses are limited, both by law and by union contracts, in their ability to fire, punish, or reassign the career civil service professionals.

                    We learned our lesson on this way back in the 1800s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendleton_Civil_Service_Reform...

                    • Spooky23 7 years ago

                      Have you ever worked for government? I have. There are a myriad of ways to do those things.

                      Civil servants tend to occupy a public perception of a bunch of incompetent idiots or a malignant threat. The reality is that they just do their jobs, and they are on the whole pretty good at it.

                      If you want unmanageable, replace the professionals with political people. Have fun getting Senator so-and-so’s kid to stop drinking at his desk or having county chairman such-and-such’s spouse not screw up everything they touch.

                      The United States did the spoils system for 100 years, it sucked.

            • vkou 7 years ago

              I dearly hope the janitor isn't the person who the grousing about the deep state is targeted at... Because if that's the case, it's a pretty weak one.

              The janitor isn't the reason the DoS makes poor decisions. These decisions are made much higher up the food chain, and elected officials have direct influence over the people who make them.

      • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

        There has been a trend of Congress delegating more and more powers of legislation and enforcement to the executive branch. FCC, NOAA, TSA, CIA, NSA, FBI, ATF, DIA, USCIS and others are children the executive branch and mostly operate without interacting with congress. Agencies like FCC and NOAA actually have the power to make "rules" which we can be punished for breaking, and the system for approving these rules contains minimal checks and balances.

      • ceejayoz 7 years ago

        > Most unelected bureaucrats only have a job at the whims of elected representatives. Your vote for the bureaucrats, via proxy of your representative.

        This is true for political appointees - ambassadors, Cabinet secretaries, etc. - but much less so for the civil service, where folks like State Department diplomatic staff or FBI agents tend to serve multi-decade careers under many different administrations.

        • Spooky23 7 years ago

          As well it should be. You don’t want the spoils system appointing FBI agents.

        • vkou 7 years ago

          They only keep their jobs through the administrations when they do as they are told. If the president wants to change a department's policy, and the department pushes back, he can fire as many directors as he needs to.

          • ceejayoz 7 years ago

            There are quite a few protections for the civil service rank and file.

            https://www.vox.com/2018/8/27/17786324/trump-fires-governmen...

            > The reason he can’t is simple: Unlike his employees at the Trump Organization, about a third of federal workers belong to unions. And those unions have negotiated certain job protections for workers, which includes a process that gives workers a chance to improve their job performance before they are terminated.

            • vkou 7 years ago

              You don't fire the line workers, you fire the managers. Workers don't set policy. They do what they are told.

              None of the directors, or the senior administrators setting policy are unionized.

  • jrieo02n 7 years ago

    There are two versions of people in the United States: statists who manipulate public opinion to empower centralized authority (#2, commonly using “failure in much debated framework will be end of nation!” These days its neoliberal economics, used to be religion) and those who want more freedom from such manipulations of our agency.

    Not saying either is right or wrong, but I def align personally with the “more freedom from pls” camp.

    The governments policing authority should be pointed at itself alone, and let the results of that trickle down.

    But we prefer to conflate stable society needs with a goal of paramount importance (currently “free market trade”) that will implode indeed our mental model of reality if the literal world should have to change.

    But it won’t implode humanity itself unless we do it to ourselves.

    We need to have a sober debate about enabling more people to escape this daily grind. We’re actively instigating anxiety, mindless resource exhaustion (while pretending financial measures of efficiency alone are achieved literally), living some socialized Stockholm syndrome, sympathizing with the aristocratic captors who are plainly indifferent, because they’re subjected to the same struggle too (but not really)!

    • coding123 7 years ago

      > We’re actively instigating anxiety, mindless resource exhaustion

      Not replying to all you said, but definitely agree - I don't see people as being excited about the limits of our abilities. It's more like people are excited about getting a new Mustang or whichever Ghettoblaster vehicle and annoying others because they are bored and have nothing existential to think about during the day. I don't know how often I just think about humanity or the mind's limits or exploring other times and places growing up - just utter fascination. Now it's just when is the next GTA coming out.

  • rayiner 7 years ago

    Isn’t it up to the people to decide how much daylight they think there is between #1 and #2? When the US topples foreign dictators, is that justified by saying we’re doing it for the good of their people, as distinguished from their government?

    It’s notable that in weeks of democratic debates hitting all sorts of issues, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone get traction by talking about surveillance.

  • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

    How are whistleblowers a threat? People like Donald Rumsfeld ought to be tried for war crimes. The "annexation" of Hawaii was both a war crime and a violation of the constitution (read: crime). All of these are common knowledge, well documented, yet there are very few people who are actually doing anything about it.

    • s_y_n_t_a_x 7 years ago

      A bit strange to be focused on an event from 126 years ago.

      • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

        An event which laid the foundation for many of the economic issues facing Hawaii today. Resolving this issue would enrich the lives of many people currently living in Hawaii.

        • jki275 7 years ago

          Are you suggesting we should just abandon the state? I'm sure there are a few people who feel that way in HI, but I don't think that's the prevailing desire. I suspect doing so would make things markedly worse for them.

          • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

            I would like to ask some questions, just to make sure I am doing a good job of understanding what you want to say. Who is "we"? Who is "them"? What is meant by "abandon"?

            • jki275 7 years ago

              What are you proposing by "resolving this issue"? What other course of action is there?

              • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

                Buckle up, friend. This is going to get weird.

                There are enough resources in Hawaii to survive a peaceful, orderly withdrawal of the U.S. occupation. The Kingdom of Hawaii still exists and has either original or successor treaty relationships with 173 out of the 193 Member States of the United Nations. To name a few: Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, Japan, Samoa, Russia, China, Siam and The Netherlands. Subjects of the Hawaiian Kingdom like Keanu Sai and Lance Larsen have already been working at the U.N. to gain international support and recognition: complaints against the U.S. have been filed with the United Nations Secretary General, the Security Council, the President of the General Assembly, as well as various UN commissions, agencies and bodies such as the Human Rights Committee, the Human Rights Council, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, and the Office of High Commissioner on Human Rights. Petitions were recently filed with the UN Fourth Committee and the Committee of 24.

                As for domestic actions, there are a few which come to mind. First of all, all actions taken after January 17 1893 that are contrary to Hawaiian Kingdom laws, be they statutes, resolutions, land titles, court rulings etc. are invalid as they were produced under false premises in unlawful jurisdictions, by dishonest persons bent on perpetrating fraud. The United States has no sovereignty within the borders of the Hawaiian Kingdom: all of the 49 United States have a treaty of cession, while Hawaii does not (for Texas, see the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo). There is no valid precedent for annexation or statehood of a sovereign state without a treaty of cession and thus the occupation of the Hawaiian Kingdom can easily be interpreted as unconstitutional. Ex injura jus non oritur: unjust acts cannot create lawful ones. Some families have already gotten wise to this and have used land titles dating back to the Great Mahele to occupy lands which currently are fraudulently being bought and sold by the State of Hawaii, and other beneficiaries of U.S. imperialism.

                As the Kingdom of Hawaii is an occupied nation, it still retains sovereignty over its territory and thus the application of U.S. law or "State of Hawaii" law is illegal. Think of Iraq's illegal occupation of Kuwait, or Russia's illegal occupation of Crimea. At some point the U.S. and the State of Hawaii are going to have to return the people they have incarcerated back to the Hawaiian Kingdom from which they were taken. I know at least one lawyer who is currently working on this. Things like driving a vehicle, opening a bank account, or purchasing a home are almost impossible for Hawaiian Kingdom subjects, yet foreign nationals are allowed and often heavily encouraged to do such things, through policies such as the EB-5 investment program.

                The Hawaiian Kingdom is free to trade with whomever it pleases in whatever way it sees fit. The United States prohibits foreign ships from unloading cargo in Hawaii, and requires them to stop in California for inspection artificially inflating the cost of imported goods.

                This stuff goes on and on and I haven't even touched on the movements currently happening within the U.S. systems to get more freedom without ending the occupation.

                Anyways, I'm still curious what you mean by "we just abandon the state?" What would that entail and how would it be detrimental to Hawaii?

                • jki275 7 years ago

                  That’s an interesting set of fantasies there. How many people in HI actually believe any of that?

                  • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

                    At least 3,000. It's not a fantasy, it's a little known fact. By what legal mechanism was the Hawaiian Kingdom annexed?

                    The document that everyone points to is the Newlands Resolution: The first paragraph says that Hawaii had indicated its consent to annexation however there is a massive body of evidence that the people did not support annexation at all. Particularly the Kue petitions: 21,000 signatures representing over half the adult population across the islands in favor of sovereignty and independence. Saddam did the same thing in the days leading up to Gulf War I: he passed a law which said "kuwait is part of iraq" without actually negotiating a treaty of cession with kuwait.

                    Can you see that there never was an annexation?

                    • jki275 7 years ago

                      3000.

                      Well good luck with that. I don't think 3000 people are going to get anything done.

                      There was certainly an annexation. Whether you like it or not might be an issue for your personal feelings I suppose, but that doesn't change the fact it happened.

                      • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

                        3,000 people. You know the entire legislative branch of the U.S. federal government amounts to 535 people, right? The current international driftnet fishing ban was secured by a loose collection of activists numbering in the 10s. Remember those oil fires in Kuwait that were magically extinquished four-and-a-half years ahead of schedule? You could count the size of that team on two hands. Also, I'd like you to acknowledge that I'm setting a very conservative lower bound with 3,000 and that the Russian and Pakistani heads of state and Bill Clinton are among those 3,000 people.

                        I'd also like you to know I spend a lot of time writing up these replies to make sure that my claims of Hawaiian sovereignty and continuity are supported by historical facts and legal documents. You never asked for evidence, but I'm going to go ahead and lay some down. I also would like you to provide any evidence to support your claim of U.S. sovereignty within the borders of the Hawaiian Kingdom.

                        Now, please join me on this fact-finding journey and maybe we will cure that ignorance of yours.

                        By 1893, the United States and the Kingdom of Hawaii had already established treaty relations: 1849 Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation; the 1875 Commercial Treaty of Reciprocity; and the 1883 Convention Concerning the Exchange of Money Orders. The text of these treaties are online, however it is also possible to get copies of the treaties and or relevant congressional records through your local federal depository (I'm assuming you're American by your ambiguous usage of the word "we" earlier, so they would be your depositories).

                        These treaties prove the United States recognizes the Hawaiian Kingdom as a sovereign state. The terms state and country are synonymous.

                        Article II Section II of the U.S. Constitution says: "[The President] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur"

                        This description is very clear. It means

                        1) Only the President may make treaties.

                        2) Only Congress may ratify treaties

                        3) A 2/3 supermajority of the Senate is required for ratification.

                        Following the invasion of Hawaii by U.S. forces, President Grover Cleveland issued a message to congress in which he declares that the invasion was an act of war:

                        a detachment of marines from the United States Steamer Boston, with two pieces of artillery, landed at Honolulu. The men, upwards of 160 in all, were supplied with double cartridge belts filled with ammunition and with haversacks and canteens, and were accompanied by a hospital corps with stretchers and medical supplies. This military demonstration upon the soil of Honolulu was of itself an act of war, unless made either with the consent of the Government of Hawaii or for the bona fide purpose of protecting the imperilled lives and property of citizens of the United States. But there is no pretense of any such consent on the part of the Government of the Queen, which at that time was undisputed and was both the de facto and the de jure government. In point of fact the existing government instead of requesting the presence of an armed force protested against it. There is as little basis for the pretense that such forces were landed for the security of American life and property. If so, they would have been stationed in the vicinity of such property and so as to protect it, instead of at a distance and so as to command the Hawaiian Government building and palace. Admiral Skerrett, the officer in command of our naval force on the Pacific station, has frankly stated that in his opinion the location of the troops was inadvisable if they were landed for the protection of American citizens whose residences and places of business, as well as the legation and consulate, were in a distant part of the city, but the location selected was a wise one if the forces were landed for the purpose of supporting the provisional government. If any peril to life and property calling for any such martial array had existed, Great Britain and other foreign powers interested would not have been behind the United States in activity to protect their citizens. But they made no sign in that direction. When these armed men were landed, the city of Honolulu was in its customary orderly and peaceful condition. There was no symptom of riot or disturbance in any quarter. Men, women, and children were about the streets as usual, and nothing varied the ordinary routine or disturbed the ordinary tranquility, except the landing of the Boston's marines and their march through the town to the quarters assigned them. Indeed, the fact that after having called for the landing of the United States forces on the plea of danger to life and property the Committee of Safety themselves requested the Minister to postpone action, exposed the untruthfulness of their representations of present peril to life and property. The peril they saw was an anticipation growing out of guilty intentions on their part and something which, though not then existing, they knew would certainly follow their attempt to overthrow the Government of the Queen without the aid of the United States forces.

                        In the same message Cleveland also explains that the U.S. policy precludes recognizing the Committee of Safety as a provisional government:

                        it has been the settled policy of the United States to concede to people of foreign countries the same freedom and independence in the management of their domestic affairs that we have always claimed for ourselves; and it has been our practice to recognize revolutionary governments as soon as it became apparent that they were supported by the people. For illustration of this rule I need only to refer to the revolution in Brazil in 1889, when our Minister was instructed to recognize the Republic "so soon as a majority of the people of Brazil should have signified their assent to its establishment and maintenance"; to the revolution in Chile in 1891, when our Minister was directed to recognize the new government "if it was accepted by the people"; and to the revolution in Venezuela in 1892, when our recognition was accorded on condition that the new government was "fully established, in possession of the power of the nation, and accepted by the people."

                        The provisional government has not assumed a republican or other constitutional form, but has remained a mere executive council or oligarchy, set up without the assent of the people. It has not sought to find a permanent basis of popular support and has given no evidence of an intention to do so. Indeed, the representatives of that government assert that the people of Hawaii are unfit for popular government and frankly avow that they can be best ruled by arbitrary or despotic power.

                        Cleveland has unequivocally declared the invasion as an act of war, which means the Kingdom of Hawaii and the U.S. have entered a state of war [1][2][3][4], and will continue to be at war until a treaty of peace is made between the U.S. and the Kingdom of Hawaii. Remember the constitutional rules for making treaties. This is according to international law.

                        In a state of war the president "possesses sole authority, and is charged with sole responsibility, and Congress is excluded from any direct interference"[5]

                        The scholars and Congress members of this time all agree that the President has sole control over foreign relations:

                        The president is the sole organ of the nation in its external relations, and its sole representative with foreign nations. Of consequence, the demand of a foreign nation can only be made of him [6]

                        Now let's take a look at Queen Liliuokalani's surrender and see if there's anything there which supports your claim:

                        I, Liliuokalani, by the grace of God and under the constitution of the Hawaiian Kingdom, Queen, do hereby solemnly protest against any and all acts done against myself and the constitutional Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom by certain persons claiming to have established a provisional government of and for this Kingdom.

                        That I yield to the superior force of the United States of America, whose minister plenipotentiary, His Excellency John L. Stevens, has caused United States troops to be landed at Honolulu and declared that he would support the said provisional government.

                        Now, to avoid any collision of armed forces and perhaps the loss of life, I do, under this protest, and impelled by said force, yield my authority until such time as the Government of the United States shall, upon the facts being presented to it, undo the action of its representatives and reinstate me in the authority which I claim as the constitutional sovereign of the Hawaiian Islands.

                        Hmm, it seems that she still claims sovereignty over her territory. She also doesn't surrender her authority to the Committee of Safety, instead choosing to surrender, temporarily and conditionally to the U.S., until they review the situation; the condition being that the U.S. must undo the committee of Safety and restore her to the throne. In case you didn't know, the U.S. and the Committee of Safety are two separate entities. Grover Cleveland actually called the committee members "insurgents", that is, rebels revolting against the established government. At this point, the Committee of Safety has about as much sovereignty in Hawaii as the Taliban have in Afghanistan. The conditions of Liliuokalani's surrender were never fulfilled and thus, the sovereignty remains with the Hawaiian Kingdom.

                        Here's Cleveland's interpretation of her surrender:

                        She surrendered not to the provisional government, but to the United States. She surrendered not absolutely and permanently, but temporarily and conditionally until such time as the facts could be considered by the United States. Furthermore, the provisional government acquiesced in her surrender in that manner and on those terms, not only by tacit consent, but through the positive acts of some members of that government who urged her peaceable submission, not merely to avoid bloodshed, but because she could place implicit reliance upon the justice of the United States, and that the whole subject would be finally considered at Washington.

                        Now let's take a closer look at the Newlands Resolution. The Newlands Resolution is a joint resolution. A joint resolution is just a bill with the power to amend the constitution (the Newlands Resolution does not exercise that power). A joint resolution is written by congress, passed by a 3/5 supermajority of the House and a majority of the Senate, then ratified by the President's signature. Now, the constitution doesn't actually have a clause granting the power of annexation. What it does have is Article II Section II, which gives the President (not congress) the power to negotiate treaties with other nations. Out of the 58 territories acquired by the U.S. 56 were acquired via treaties signed by the President and approved by 2/3 majority of the Senate. This is the relevant context which must be considered when we ask if the Newlands Resolution is constitutional or not. The Constitution grants Congress powers which are exclusively and necessarily domestic. In the Appollon (which predates the Newlands Resolution) the United States Supreme Court said as much:

                        The laws of no nation can justly extend beyond its own territories except so far as regards its own citizens. They can have no force to control the sovereignty or rights of any other nation within its own jurisdiction. And however general and comprehensive the phrases used in our municipal laws may be, they must always be restricted in construction to places and persons, upon whom the legislature has authority and jurisdiction.[7]

                        It goes on to say that "it would be an unjust interpretation of our laws to give them a meaning so much at variance with the independence and sovereignty of foreign nations."[7]

                        So the judiciary believes that the resolution is unjust, what about congress? On the House floor, Representative Thomas H. Ball straight up called it illegal as well as unjust:

                        The annexation of Hawai‘i by joint resolution is unconstitutional, unnecessary, and unwise. …Why, sir, the very presence of this measure here is the result of a deliberate attempt to do unlawfully that which can not be done lawfully[8]

                        When the Newlands Resolution reached the Senate, Senator Augustus Bacon also said the resolution was illegal:

                        a joint resolution for the annexation of foreign territory was necessarily and essentially the subject matter of a treaty, and... it could not be accomplished legally and constitutionally by a statute or joint resolution[9]

                        Not only is the Newlands Resolution illegal and unjust, it is simply invalid. Countless legal scholars have looked at this document and to this day, there is still no explanation as to what constitutional power Congress exercised in passing it. I invite you to take a crack at it and see if you can succeed where countless others have failed. Considering that neither president McKinley nor Cleveland made a peace treaty with the Hawaiian Kingdom following the invasion, Congress' attempt at annexation is doubly illegal due to the two states being in a state of war.

                        So how did it get passed? McKinley was waging war with the Spanish colonies in the Pacific, so getting 3/5 of the house and a majority of the senate was easy: they wanted a place stage their military.

                        Of course since there was no lawful treaty of cession, the establishment of PACOM in 1898 and the U.S. military support of the Republic of Hawaii are basically acts of piracy.

                        Fast-forwarding to 2018, Dr. Alfred M. deZayas, wrote to the State of Hawaii as a United Nations Independent Expert:

                        As a professor of international law, the former Secretary of the UN Human Rights Committee, co-author of book, The United Nations Human Rights Committee Case Law 1977-2008, and currently serving as the UN Independent Expert on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order, I have come to understand that the lawful political status of the Hawaiian Islands is that of a sovereign nation-state that is under a strange form of occupation by the United States resulting from an illegal military occupation and a fraudulent annexation. As such, international laws (the Hague and Geneva Conventions) require that governance and legal matters within the occupied territory of the Hawaiian Islands must be administered by the application of the laws of the occupied state (in this case, the Hawaiian Kingdom), not the domestic laws of the occupier (the United States).

                        Further affirming that the annexation IS fraudulent, the U.S. IS illegally occupying the territory of the sovereign Kingdom of Hawaii, and the U.S. must abide by the 1907 Hague Convention, IV, and the 1949 Geneva Convention, IV. "Belligerent occupation does not affect the continuity of the State, even where there exists no government claiming to represent the occupied State."[10]

                        International law pretty clearly condemns what has transpired in the Kingdom of Hawaii over the last hundred years. We have established the Kingdom of Hawaii is a sovereign state with treaty relations with the United States. In Grover Cleveland's message to congress he specifically points out that the rogue marines which invaded hawaii were neither acting to defend life nor property, and that their only mission was to wage war with the Kingdom to usurp its government and force an annexation. The Newlands Resolution is not only unconstitutional, it is a violation of the Hague and Geneva Conventions regulating the belligerent occupation of a neutral state. Ex injuria jus non oritur. The Newlands Resolution, created the Republic of Hawaii. Subsequent acts of Congress created the Republic government and then changed the Republic's name to "The State of Hawaii". There is no real treaty, there was no annexation, the U.S. presence in Hawaii is illegal according to laws both domestic and international. The U.S. has no claim over Kingdom land, no sovereignty to apply its laws within the Kingdom's territory, and its claims to such fall apart upon all but the shallowest inspections.

                        Do you respect international law? Grover Cleveland did. In that same message to Congress I quoted earlier, he delivers the most beautiful rhetoric regarding international law that I have ever read.

                        I mistake the American people if they favor the odious doctrine that there is no such thing as international morality, that there is one law for a strong nation and another for a weak one, and that even by indirection a strong power may with impunity despoil a weak one of its territory.

                        The law of nations is founded upon reason and justice, and the rules of conduct governing individual relations between citizens or subjects of a civilized state are equally applicable as between enlightened nations. The considerations that international law is without a court for its enforcement, and that obedience to its commands practically depends upon good faith, instead of upon the mandate of a superior tribunal, only give additional sanction to the law itself and brand any deliberate infraction of it not merely as a wrong but as a disgrace. A man of true honor protects the unwritten word which binds his conscience more scrupulously, if possible, than he does the bond a breach of which subjects him to legal liabilities; and the United States in aiming to maintain itself as one of the most enlightened of nations would do its citizens gross injustice if it applied to its international relations any other than a high standard of honor and morality.

                        [1] - Professor Wright “Changes in the Conception of War,” American Journal of International Law, vol. 18 (1924) (p. 758)

                        [2] - Professor Hall, International Law (4th ed., 1895)(p. 391)

                        [3] - Professor Wright, “When does War Exist,” American Journal of International Law, vol. 26(2) (1932) (p. 363)

                        [4]Professor Oppenheim, International Law, vol. 2 (1906) (p. 104)

                        [5] - Associate Justice Sutherland, Constitutional Power and World Affairs (1919)(p. 75)

                        [6] - Annals of Congress, vol. 10, p. 613

                        [7]- The Appollon, 22 U.S. 362 (1824)

                        [8] - 31 Cong. Rec. 5975

                        [9] - 31 Cong. Rec. 6148

                        [10] - Judge Crawford, The Creation of States in International Law (2nd ed., 2006)(p. 34)

                        • jki275 7 years ago

                          You are clearly extremely passionate about this topic. Unfortunately, the things you have posted do not change reality, which is that Hawaii is a state in the United States and that is highly unlikely to ever change.

                          • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

                            It is you who are refusing to accept reality.

                            The State of Hawaii is fictitious and one simply has to sneeze to bring the facade crashing down. Ke'eaumoku Kapu has demonstrated this by occupying the Kuleana lands. If the false narrative of Hawaii's annexation and statehood were true, the Royal Land Commission Awards would be void. Ke'eaumoku Kapu and his students would have been arrested for trespassing and destroying private property. Instead, they've displaced the foreigners to whom the lands were fraudulently sold and started growing food and restoring the water supply. Last time I checked with him in May he had settled 5 or 6 cases and was still working reclaim more lands. This is happening in 2019.

                            Feel free to stick your head in the sand and believe the lies, but I promise if you watch carefully enough what is happening in and around Hawaii, you will know that Hawaii is a sovereign state, not a U.S. state.

                            • jki275 7 years ago

                              https://keypolicydata.com/government/federal-taxes-and-spend...

                              Again, you're arguing things that simply are not so. The state of Hawaii receives, in US Federal tax money, 1.61 for every dollar of taxes it pays.

                              You can't have it both ways.

                              Your points about native lands also do not disprove the statehood of Hawaii. There are native lands in every state in the Continental US as well.

                              • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

                                The Kuleana Lands Act of 1850 is not a racist federal entitlement program from the United States, it's an act passed by the constitutional government of the Hawaiian Kingdom. The descendants who are currently occupying these lands are arguing their territorial claims based on the fact that the Hawaiian Kingdom is the de jure governing body of the lands in question. By acknowledging the validity of the Hawaiian Kingdom's Land Commission Awards, the court is acknowledging the Hawaiian Kingdom's sovereignty over the Kuleana lands.

                                Kuleana lands are not "indian reservations" which exist at the whim of the federal government; they are properties awarded to private citizens of the Hawaiian Kingdom by the Kuleana Lands Act. Everything about the Kuleana lands, from the size of each parcel, to the conditions of the land awards, are matters of Hawaiian Kingdom law and are not at all dependent on any kind of racial entitlement program in the State of Hawaii or United States.

                                I am not sure how you mean to conflate Kuleana Lands with "native lands in every state in the Continental U.S." I am needing some elaboration.

                                Also, about the State of Hawaii's federal tax burden, what about it? Are you saying that it is impossible for a government to profit in Hawaii without federal money? Please interpret the data you provide.

                                • jki275 7 years ago

                                  You don't realize that the entirety of the United States used to be occupied by people other than the people who live here now? I have a CDIB card, my ancestors walked the trail of tears. Many injustices were done -- but you know what? They also fought for the US in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, and I carried on their traditions -- based in our allegiance to our country -- in OSW and OEF. There are reservations in every state in the US, owned by the native tribes who still remain. That does not change the fact that the US is not going to just cease to exist and go back to a tribal plains where we run buffalo off cliffs and forage to survive.

                                  The world now is not the world of the 1700s and the 1800s. Making up stories about why we can pretend the world is the same and the rules are the same and pretending that things that actually happened did not happen is unhealthy. It accomplishes nothing.

                                  I would suggest you would be a whole lot happier if you found another hobby.

                                  The data I provided shows that Hawaii is a net taker of federal funds -- they receive 1.61 from the federal government for every dollar they send in taxes. Pretending the state of Hawaii does not exist when it is clearly a part of the US based on taxes paid and welfare received is simply an untenable position.

                                  I'm done here.

        • s_y_n_t_a_x 7 years ago

          That's impossible to tell and the US is the richest nation on Earth, the Federal government provides financial assistance to states.

          • jacobwilliamroy 7 years ago

            Hawaii is one of the most unstable unsecure countries on earth and it has been made that way under U.S. occupation. It is so heavily dependent on outside resources that if the giant robots that unload cargo in Honolulu ever shut down, a massive humanitarian crisis will ensue in hours. Once upon a time, the land supported a population of 2 million people with no outside help.

            Money is worthless in a place like Hawaii where proper land and marine management are the sole requirements for ensuring the well-being of the community. Food production is crippled as the land is destroyed to make way for suburbs and shopping malls. The "state" government routinely approves projects which divert water away from prime farmlands to fill swimming pools and irrigate massive golf courses covered in invasive grass. In Kihei they're teaching school kids that their land is a dry wasteland when everyone's grandparents remember that it was wetlands before the water was diverted.

            Hosting the U.S. military has made many places in Hawaii incapable of sustaining life as they heavily pollute any area they occupy. They broke the water table on Kahoolawe and now no one can live there for thousands of years. They are currently allowing jet fuel to leak into the aquifer under red hill.

  • Arubis 7 years ago

    This is an excellent breakdown of something that feels obvious but was hard to express. Thank you.

  • Clubber 7 years ago

    >This is a living creature and that's what many 2nd amendmenters don't seem to realize, that the government of the USA isn't The People of, it's an organism that will maintain its form by any means necessary. Legal ones are the safest, illegal and immoral ones if needs must.

    Second amendment-ers are keenly aware of this.

    • komali2 7 years ago

      Speaking from experience with them, they seem to think the 2nd amendment must necessarily be respected by the very government they think is allowing them the guns to threaten said government with in the first place. That's the cognitive hole I'm pointing to - if they stockpile weapons to eventually potentially overthrow the US government, they must do so knowing that it will be illegal to do so regardless - the 2nd amendment won't protect them in that case, and is thus practically useless for what they think it's useful for.

      AKA, the life of a militiaman that intends to use weapons to overthrow the USA is, to the USA, the life of a terrorist/rebel/enemy of the state. It's not a constitutionally protected state of existence.

      • Clubber 7 years ago

        >government they think is allowing them the guns

        Technically, the government #2 doesn't "allow" us rights, they are given to us by the constitution of which government #2 is ultimately bound to. The same fight happened against our right to free speech with the Sedition Act, of which our right to criticize the government ultimately survived. Citizens are still fighting to keep our right of privacy, the rights of the press, and of course the right to bear arms, among others.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

        Having said that, the second amendment, as it stands with government #2, is ultimately another check and balance, as is freedom of press, and speech. As with nuclear armaments and M.A.D., arms don't have to be used to be a deterrent. There are many examples in history where armed civilians were effective against much stronger militaries.

      • rayiner 7 years ago

        The 2A doesn’t protect the use of arms against the government, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard a 2A advocate suggest that. The point is to prevent the government from disarming the populace before such action might be required.

        • dragonwriter 7 years ago

          Actually, no, the point is to prevent the government from deciding it needs to rely on professional police and military forces for day-to-day defense against domestic and international security threats, instead relying on ad hoc levies from the general population for those purposes, making it unthinkable both in terms of capacity and inclination that the “government security services” could suppress the general civilian population, since the former as a separate group by profession, class, etc.—but for very small standing cadres providing institutional knowledge and continuity—would not exist. But that ship has rather sailed, and the 2A failed in its purpose, but it still hangs around, and even it's defenders have forgotten what it was there for.

        • komali2 7 years ago

          > I don’t think I’ve ever heard a 2A advocate suggest that

          Oh, well, I have, and that's the kind of 2A advocate I'm talking about.

          I'm sure there are other sorts, but that's the kind I meant.

        • jki275 7 years ago

          A better way to state that would be that the existence of an armed populace is to deter tyrannical actions from the government.

    • nyolfen 7 years ago

      seriously, this is probably the least intuitive group to single out over this

caf 7 years ago

As I read through I didn't think there was too much to this - if we're going to have big classified databases then strong auditing is absolutely essential and I'm glad it's happening (people selling the data in them to corporations and governments is absolutely a valid concern).

I'm happy I kept reading though, because I thought this bit down near the bottom was insightful:

Authentication, which often involves sharing information about the contents of a forthcoming story with the government, is a common journalistic practice that allows the government to weigh in on any risks involved in publishing the material of which the journalist may not be aware. By turning that process into a trap for journalists and sources, the government is sacrificing an opportunity to safeguard its legitimate interests and tell its side of the story.

apo 7 years ago

> On August 8, 2014, dozens of FBI agents raided Hale’s house with guns drawn and searched his computer and flash drives. This all happened during the Obama administration, which declined to file charges. Five years later, Trump’s Justice Department revived the case.

The article fails to point out that it was the Obama administration that really turned up the heat on whistleblowers:

https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10...

I suspect that at the time many Obama supporters simply didn't care. Their guy was in charge and that was that.

Short-sighted to be sure.

Far too few considered the possibility that the opposition was watching and learning what new things might be possible.

carapace 7 years ago

I don't think the surveillance systems can be put back in the bottle. The technology is always getting cheaper and the economic and political benefits are clear.

If you accept that premise, I think we have to develop systems that are humane and self-referential.

  • PavlovsCat 7 years ago

    Humane constant surveillance is an oxymoron. Surveillance has a chilling effect on even just developing as thinking person, so, if you accept the premise (for which there is no actual hard reason), you can have a humane system, maybe, but no humans in it.

    Even good thoughts sometimes require incubation in private. Mass surveillance restricts learning, communication, and down the road thinking, to such a degree, it's like outlawing books with more than 10 pages. Humans as we cherish them today -- ones with agency and spontaneity -- cannot exist in such conditions, meaningful social progress will stop.

    • carapace 7 years ago

      Let me be clear that I am not advocating for constant ubiquitous surveillance. Only I don't see a way to avoid it happening. There may be a severe disruption in civilization what with the climate and all, but one day "there will be lemon-soaked paper napkins."

      At best you can try to limit who has the surveillance tech, but to do that you have to have the surveillance tech, eh? The problem is circular.

      So, since we cannot (I believe) do without the surveillance, can we remove the chilling effect?

      For example, in Star Trek the computer always knew where everyone was (unless the script called for a mysterious disappearance) and no one felt stifled, eh?

      • dmix 7 years ago

        We already have a warrant system in place that is more than adequate for protecting privacy and excessive dragnet fishing expeditions.

        I don’t see why modern surveillance is allowed to bypass these laws in the name of security or w/e goal. When it’s clear investigators have more than enough to work with, just justify it first in court to a justice or judge.

        Secret courts are extremely dangerous precedent too and basically defeats the whole purpose.

        • staplers 7 years ago

          The founding fathers literally said we have to use lethal violence against those who want to restrict our freedom in this exact scenario.

          Take that as you will. Their method worked.

        • clubm8 7 years ago

          >We already have a warrant system in place that is more than adequate for protecting privacy and excessive dragnet fishing expeditions.

          Do you have a citation for that claim?

          There are vast[1] systems in place that violate laws and norms, so much so the IETF has labeled pervasive monitoring as an "attack"[2]

          [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7258

          • dmix 7 years ago

            None of the things you linked to use the traditional warrant system. Particularly the whole FISA system and our terrorist laws here in Canada which sidestepped criminal courts entirely.

            • clubm8 7 years ago

              not really sure what your point is so maybe you can clarify: are you saying it's ok to have a separate type of warrant for terrorists?

              "traditional warrant system" is not a legal term. FISA warrants are warrants. Highly problematic, but warrants.

              You may be interested in reading about how even FISA felt the NSA overstepped:

              https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d7axey/this-is-the-secret...

        • carapace 7 years ago

          How do the good guys ensure that the bad guys aren't abusing the tech without using it themselves?

      • PavlovsCat 7 years ago

        > I don't see a way to avoid it happening

        Civil society outnumbers spooks by how much, and who needs who, who is paying for who? Simply withdrawing support and tax money could end it rather quickly.

        I can't tell you how to organize people to do that, but it could actually just happen anytime, just a fluke, everybody wakes up in the morning and thinks enough is enough. High-tech requires constant, expensive maintenance, It's not like, say, a giant stone structure you can leave unattended for a few years or even decades.

        • carapace 7 years ago

          > who needs who

          We need them. That's why we pay them.

          > everybody wakes up in the morning and thinks enough is enough.

          And then? Do they tear down the machines and all the "spooks" are tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail? How do the farm animals know the pigs are not becoming humans? ("Animal Farm" reference, in case it's not clear.) How do you know bad guys aren't building and using spook-tech?

          For example, do the drug cartels voluntarily give up their gear in this scenario?

          • PavlovsCat 7 years ago

            > And then? Do they tear down the machines and all the "spooks" are tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail?

            How is that relevant? I refuted the claim that nothing can be done.

            • carapace 7 years ago

              For the sake of argument, let's say I'm wrong and you're right: ubiquitous surveillance is a genie that can be re-bottled.

              You still aren't addressing my main point: How do we know, going forward, that no one is rubbing that lamp? Someone has to guard the lamp, eh?

              Unless you're postulating some sort of post-historical world-wide Golden Age (which I am down to discuss!) there are still going to be people smart enough and wicked enough to use tech to spy and connive, etc.

    • andrerm 7 years ago

      Governments and corporations will happily have majority of society not thinning and just following

      • PavlovsCat 7 years ago

        Yeah, but not many persons in them would want it, and no person in the world would be exempt from it. It could very well be that even though everybody would be kinda unhappy, we wouldn't know why, or that it could be different, we might not have the words for our discomfort, etc.

        But I completely agree that a world without human agency wouldn't mean it would be a dead world. It could be bustling with activity, but the individual agents could still be very repressed or outright empty, automatons if you will.

        When I speculate about such extreme extrapolations, the one ray of hope I have is that we might colonize the galaxy, and something could gets away, by accident, be it people or just organic matter. But until then it could be a very long and very dark stretch.

        Of course, that's assuming the universe isn't teeming with life anyway, in which case I don't think even the supermegaborg could conquer all of it. I'm just worried about our place in it, if we get to experience it or not, how and as who. FWIW I genuinely am, it's not just as a hyperbolic argument against mass surveillance (in combination with automation and military robotics, I would add).

Elpomm 7 years ago

Conservatism should be about maintaining checks and balances that keep the government honest. IMO this is something that even Trump's supporters should be concerned about, especially if they themselves lean a bit libertarian.

  • _bfhp 7 years ago

    The most profitable central principle for a party of corporations is deregluation of _industry_. Scaling up of the military and authoritarianism is a profitable choice as well. Those are two main incentives of many conservative parties and groups. The unifying principle of conservatism is: survival of the fittest. The strongest, toughest country, business, and individual has the right to survive. Helping and trying to understand other countries, situations, people? Irrational, weak.

    • 481092 7 years ago

      >The unifying principle of conservatism is: survival of the fittest

      This isn't just a principle of a party but a natural law. This is displayed in liberal politics also. Life is a fight using powers as a utility, hard and soft powers. Liberals tend to bank on using the powers of certain ideologies, many as vague as conservative ideologies, in order for those ideologies to survive. Some use the soft power of love which may prove sometimes to be fittest when that power gathers enough political support, some use the hard powers of war and competition which may seem fittest in some occasions. And of course, love and warfare is seen and used in both/all parties even when they don't seem to realize it, sometimes hypocritically on the surface but often when you look deep enough, you see the forces of natural law shining through and it's not just love and war against each other, it's just organisms which may be ideological, biological, etc competing in what some would view as a thermodynamic machine racing towards entropic neutrality.

      But to say only conservatives employ 'survival of the fittest' is such a vast simplification.

      • _bfhp 7 years ago

        If everyday human life must echo the eons-long process of evolution, can we say the same for other natural laws? Gravity is a natural law; so people inevitably bow to their superiors? People bowing to each other is gravity shining through! But capillary action is another natural law, so it means people inevitably rise up to best their superiors...

        When my cat cuddles up to me on the bed, this natural 'life is a fight' law falls to pieces. Beings are capable of generosity without a gaining idea, and most of us have encountered this as part of our lives. I have found that lovingkindness and compassion are boundless in every sentient being's heart.

        I think self-identified 'liberals' generally don't have any concrete principles about power itself. As long as it is illegal to not treat all people equally, liberals seem to think government power should increase to the extent that it can relieve suffering and foster generosity. Parts of the left, with its civil libertarians and Proudhon anarchists, think about power in a deeper and more heterodox way...

        • maximente 7 years ago

          > When my cat cuddles up to me on the bed, this natural 'life is a fight' law falls to pieces. Beings are capable of generosity without a gaining idea, and most of us have encountered this as part of our lives.

          devil's advocate: your cat does this so that you continue to feed/protect/pay attention to it.

          you may not like that negative point of view, but it seems like a reasonable strategy for survival in a really tough world pre-modern era (still is tough for many).

          • _bfhp 7 years ago

            My partner feeds and plays with ours cats (I don't have as much time)

        • arbitrary_name 7 years ago

          Research shows domestic animals build a bond with those that feed and shelter them. Sorry dude, but your cat doesnt love or care about you beyond its basic need fulfillment. And you care for it because it makes you feel needed and wanted. Altruism is not a real construct imho.

          • _bfhp 7 years ago

            I don't feed my cats, and barely play with them. They also don't know who pays the rent...

    • whatshisface 7 years ago

      A big military isn't profitable for most businesses, who have to pay for it with corporate taxes.

  • andrekandre 7 years ago

    is trump conservative or is he right wing?

    even if they are usually conflated or found together, aren’t they pretty much different things?

    • casefields 7 years ago

      The only thing conservative about Trump are his judicial picks, which is because he agreed to allow the Federalist Society to give him screened/approved candidates.

    • Spooky23 7 years ago

      Trump is a fascist, which is a little different. The high school political spectrum thing breaks down out of the context of the 20th century.

      • ajxs 7 years ago

        How is Trump in any way a 'fascist'? What do you think actually characterises fascism?

        • pimmen 7 years ago

          I would not say Trump's a fascist, but there are some really bad elements of fascism Trump does embrace.

          He does not believe in the checks and balances of government, preferring the executive branch to not have to answer to directives from other branches. This is at least the message he sends out to his base when he tweets that he'll ignore a Supreme Court ruling or a House subpoena. He does not believe that the justice system should be independent of the executive branch, admitting that the Russia investigation was a factor in firing an FBI director and having instructed members of his staff to try to interfer in investigations, if the Mueller report is to be believed. He places a very strong emphasis on national unity and uses language which excludes people from this national identity.

          Now, there are plenty of things he does though that is incompatible with the strict definition of fascism. He clearly does not favor a mixed economy and instead prefers not to regulate it (but he does favor national self sufficiency, which was a big part of early 20th century fascism, but not even close to degree of "if the nation needs something we don't have, let's expand"), he has not tried to use the education system to strengthen the national identity (in contrast to Russia or Turkey for example), has not engaged in "moral hygiene" preachings and ... I could go on, he does not embrace all the core tenets of fascism but he does incorporate several troubling elements of it.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

  • rjkennedy98 7 years ago

    Conservatism has never been about any of the things its supposed to be about. See: federal debt.

    • ISL 7 years ago

      One can argue that those representatives who claim to be fiscally conservative but vote for unfunded liabilities are not, in fact, fiscally conservative.

      • ceejayoz 7 years ago

        One can argue that's a logical fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

        • monocasa 7 years ago

          You can't say "you're not a scotsman because I don't like your actions or opinions". You can say "you're not a scotsman because you're neither from scotland, nor have any particular tie to it."

          Similarly fiscal conservatism has an actual definition, and it's totally vaild to say "you don't adhere to the definition", as long as you're not applying spurious constraints.

          • ceejayoz 7 years ago

            > Similarly fiscal conservatism has an actual definition...

            A vague one, making it easy to play the Scotsman game with.

      • arkades 7 years ago

        It's a political party. If people that identify X vote for you, who identifies X and votes in a block with other people that identify X for matters that attract Identity X voters to said party... then you don't get to pull the No True Scotsman. You are the party of X, whether or not some arbitrary philosophy party X is supposed to uphold is consistent with the party's actions.

        • monocasa 7 years ago

          The party is Republican. Fiscal conservatism is absolutely a specific policy which someone can be said to be following or not.

sarcasmatwork 7 years ago

Obama started, Trump continued. Not good for anyone.

  • cronix 7 years ago

    Bush started after 9/11.

    • greenyoda 7 years ago

      According to James Risen, one of the reporters that the Obama DOJ went after, "the [Obama] administration has prosecuted nine cases involving whistle-blowers and leakers, compared with only three by all previous administrations combined".[1]

      Here's more context from Risen's article, which was written in December, 2016:

      > Criticism of Mr. Obama’s stance on press freedom, government transparency and secrecy is hotly disputed by the White House, but many journalism groups say the record is clear. Over the past eight years, the administration has prosecuted nine cases involving whistle-blowers and leakers, compared with only three by all previous administrations combined. It has repeatedly used the Espionage Act, a relic of World War I-era red-baiting, not to prosecute spies but to go after government officials who talked to journalists.

      > Under Mr. Obama, the Justice Department and the F.B.I. have spied on reporters by monitoring their phone records, labeled one journalist an unindicted co-conspirator in a criminal case for simply doing reporting and issued subpoenas to other reporters to try to force them to reveal their sources and testify in criminal cases.

      > I experienced this pressure firsthand when the administration tried to compel me to testify to reveal my confidential sources in a criminal leak investigation. The Justice Department finally relented — even though it had already won a seven-year court battle that went all the way to the Supreme Court to force me to testify — most likely because they feared the negative publicity that would come from sending a New York Times reporter to jail.

      [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/sunday/if-donald-...

    • ralusek 7 years ago

      Patriot Act and the NDAA are nails in the coffin of a free society.

      • Arubis 7 years ago

        This does strike true. A useful inquiry would be: what can we do about it? The technological sidestepping game seems to be running out of steam.

        • maximente 7 years ago

          one thing i've been thinking about is one issue political parties.

          "our mission, once elected, is to..."

          US example: thinking about medical care here: what if a political party came out and said, "we don't care about marijuana, gay marriage, federal debt, ...: only getting medical care for all.

          you'll say, well that's impossible, people won't vote for them without knowing e.g. what their stance on abortion is.

          but... i'm convinced those wedge issues are what keep the 2 party system intact. they'll just ruin you by pitting the other k % of people against you as mortal enemies, demonizing and alienating those voters. easy example is abortion, who probably have a lot of bright line voters.

          anyway, it'd be really tough, as would any new political party in the US, would be attacked endlessly by the RepubliCrats. but, seems like an interesting thought nonetheless.

          • bo1024 7 years ago

            You'd be interested in alternative voting systems, for example direct democracy or liquid democracy, proportional representation, ....

        • buboard 7 years ago

          Maybe convince presidential candidates to start talking about the pressing issues before distant future measures like UBI

      • YinglingLight 7 years ago

        Where does using an ally's spy agency to circumvent being unable to target US Citizens fall on that list?

      • sarcasmatwork 7 years ago

        Agree 100%

    • Arubis 7 years ago

      Or, you know, Truman. Or Hoover. Generally speaking, people capable of getting themselves elected President have authoritarian tendencies.

      • Aloha 7 years ago

        I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the politics of Herbert Hoover if you'd call him (or any of the republicans like him) authoritarian.

        • Arubis 7 years ago

          COINTELPRO?

          • Arubis 7 years ago

            Since I'm being downvoted (probably appropriately for a half-assed answer), some clarification: Mr. Hoover was demonstrably happy to (ab)use the powers of the state against both political and civilian domestic opponents.

            I actually don't mean to single him out in particular, but more to point to the overall trend.

      • dsfyu404ed 7 years ago

        As an aside, the fact that the FBI building is still named after Hoover says something about the values of that organization (yes, I know they passed a law giving it that name which would make it tricky to rename).

        • Arubis 7 years ago

          This is based on the incorrect impression I was working on when making that argument, corrected elsewhere in this thread--Hoover the president and Hoover the first head of the FBI were different men.

          • dsfyu404ed 7 years ago

            I assumed you were talking about J. Edgar Hoover since the president and the guy who founded the vacuum company don't seem very relevant to a discussion about surveillance and censorship.

      • Dirlewanger 7 years ago

        Bush ushered in the modern surveillance state. Since him, the differences of the 2 parties has blurred insomuch while the government may vary from administration from administration as to what services the federal government as a whole provides, but one thing is for sure: it will always be watching you no matter what. The alphabet agencies will never relinquish their newfound surveillance powers.

        • Arubis 7 years ago

          It's pretty likely that your and my (dis)taste for particular politicians and parties overlaps, but keep in mind that only one single senator voted against the passage of the Patriot Act as originally presented. My strong suspicion is that the association of W. with the modern surveillance state, while accurate, has far more to do with timing than with party.

          • elliekelly 7 years ago

            My Constitutional Law professor was big on not just exploring the legal analysis of cases but on making sure we understood the social/historical context at the time decisions were made. He used to tell us fear is the biggest threat to freedom because nothing erodes the constitution as quickly as a public panic. At the time I honestly thought he was being a little dramatic but seeing all of the things we allow the government to do in the name of "fighting terrorism" I realize he had a pretty good point.

            • Silhouette 7 years ago

              He certainly did. Indeed, similar sentiments have been expressed before, and not always by nice people:

              Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy: all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger.

              (Hermann Goering, commenting on the ease of taking a country to war regardless of its political system, during the Nuremberg trials)

          • Dirlewanger 7 years ago

            Of course it was timing. A Democrat in office during 9/11 would have made no difference. Nobody was seeing straight at that time. Everyone wanted the federal government to do something about those darn terrorists. With the PATRIOT Act passed, it was like that quote from the Stars Wars prequels: "So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause..."

            • edoo 7 years ago

              Biden wrote the patriot act and Clinton couldn't pass it at the time, but Bush was able to.

        • tbyehl 7 years ago

          Clinton and CALEA don't get enough credit for creating the infrastructure of the modern American surveillance state.

          • stevenicr 7 years ago

            Recent developments made me realize that we need to add cloudflare to this list.

            • stevenicr 7 years ago

              perhaps a downvote on that came from lack of reference, I had assumed most here had read the 'recent developments' from cloudflare, but perhaps there are those who would downvote that have only read headlines. I was not aware of how much cloudflare had become a part of the survielance state until I read the recent post from the ceo there.

              Here are a few quotes to substantiate my outrageous claim:

              -- because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network.

              -- ...monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained...

              -- We will continue to work within the legal process to share information...

              This is edited merely to show proof of the statement about surveilance. I am intentional taking parts of it out of context that includes their 'reasoning' and all that. This statement from me is not about whether this is a good or bad thing they are doing or for which reasons they do or do not, should they are shouldn't they, or whatever.

              I suggest reading more about their side of the story they posted: https://new.blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8cha...

              and read discussions on other threads around HN and other places on the web about the good, bad, etc on the issue.

              It saddens me greatly to have to make that above statement that was downvoted by the way - there was a time when I placed great faith in the ability of cloudflare to protect free speech from the Xchans and those who peruse them (4 chan was used at one time to coordinate LOIC DDoS attacks against sites I maintain and several hosting companies that tried to handle that. So I was relieved with cloudflare at one time in protecting data transit - now it's become another instrument in censorship at the direction of the few to affect the many sadly.

              That faith has now been destroyed as they have chosen to take a different route and instead suriveil and silence at the whim of changing goalposts.

        • rtkwe 7 years ago

          They wouldn't willingly but they can be forced, the agencies aren't natural phenomena they exist because they're legally allowed to, it just takes a greater political will that isn't isolated to one political party, because from the TLA's POV these programs help them do their jobs and politically it's easier to be seen 'doing something' about threats than it is to say 'some threats are only counterable by fundamentally sacrificing freedoms that shouldn't be sacrificed.' This is partially because the sacrificed freedoms are less tangible and real than the threats, it's hard to quantify the trade-off of living in a surveillance state to most people vs the idea that people could just come in one day and blow up/shoot up a store/concert/festival you happen to be in.

auslander 7 years ago

There is a contradiction: "Although Facebook, which owns WhatsApp, doesn’t have access to the content of those backed-up messages, Google and Apple do." and

" 'iMessage communications are end-to-end encrypted and Apple has no way to decrypt iMessage data when it is in transit between devices,' the guidelines state."

I would say it is the other way around, FB and Google can access the content of messages, Apple can not.

  • SanchoPanda 7 years ago

    They may be referring to messages which were sent as end to end encrypted, but were later backed up in Google drive or Dropbox etc. in plaintext. This is something I have done in the past.

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