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Trying to deploy WPA3 on my home network

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55 points by ynezz 7 years ago · 28 comments

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voltagex_ 7 years ago

Worried enough about security to deploy WPA3, but still uses a Galaxy S2? Even with LineageOS, aren't you still using ancient device drivers?

  • cbhl 7 years ago

    Device drivers don't usually need to be updated unless the driver interface changes (i.e. when you update the Linux kernel) or the driver needs to be updated to accommodate quirks of new software (i.e. graphics drivers and new video games).

    They probably do want to be getting the latest security patches to the kernel and base OS.

    • jtl999 7 years ago

      I remember the creator of CopperheadOS claiming the "Nexus 5" (which is EOL) is not secure because of hardware (baseband?) vulnerabilities that wouldn't be trivial to fix.

      Citation: https://twitter.com/DanielMicay/status/1058103333414522880

      • ech000 7 years ago

        Can anyone recommend a post that introduces these kind of issues for Android outsiders?

        I assumed Android ROMs carry a fully fledged distribution, including the kernel and firmware. Sure, the latter might be out of date.

        When I tried digging into the question "where does this so-called open source come from", I stumbled upon Kernels that basically have one commit adding the whole blob.

        Is the ROM merely the application software built for a target kernel (which is persistent on the device)?

        I've hacked around with Kernel modules on Android before, but miss the big picture in that regard.

        Edit: especially the new update infrastructure (treble?), Does it change anything here?

      • lclarkmichalek 7 years ago

        I think he's more saying that Nexus 5 is not secure going forwards because the firmware for the hardware is not getting updates. I can't see any reference to specific vulnerabilities, but when a platform is complex they're bound to exist. When you combine that with not getting updates, you have an insecure platform.

        • ghusbands 7 years ago

          The firmware for the Nexus 5 wifi chip has well-known remotely-exploitable code-execution vulnerabilities [1] that were never patched. Nearly all modern devices have a full software stack inside the wifi (and other radio) chips and they all have plenty of security flaws and they're all proprietary and unaffected by the OS.

          So it's not just about it not being secure going forwards. It and most other similar age handsets are insecure because a fix has never been released for the older chips.

          [1] https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2017/04/over-air-expl...

      • arghwhat 7 years ago

        Basebands are generally terrible black boxes. Even for new devices, they're a major security concern.

        • jtl999 7 years ago

          Agreed.

          Does anyone know anything about the GSMK Cryptophone 500? It's appears to be a modified Galaxy S3 with a heavily custom ROM and can double as an IMSI catcher. I wonder. Did they RE the baseband or replace it with their own?

          https://www.cryptophone.de/en/products/mobile/cp500/

          Interesting.

          • voltagex_ 7 years ago

            I seem to remember there being relatively complete access to the S3 baseband at one point. Not sure I'd use it as a daily driver though. The S3 had big problems with the eMMC suddenly dying.

            • jtl999 7 years ago

              Heh maybe.

              I am aware of the eMMC issues. Not to mention a phone from those days is slower then current phones, although I don't know much that matters with the custom ROM they use.

  • est31 7 years ago

    Author here, sorry I only saw this late.

    Yes, the drivers are ancient, and probably have a ton of security vulnerabilities. Has the general situation improved in recent years? To me it seems that hardware vendors generally don't care about these issues at all. Which phone would you say has secure drivers?

    • voltagex_ 7 years ago

      Hey, the replies here about CopperheadOS are pretty good for info on this.

      It's a tradeoff - new phones are more secure, but they're also secured against you, e.g. if I OEM unlock my Galaxy Note 9, a bit is set permemnantly that could be used to determine whether the phone gets a warranty repair.

      To get back on track, you may want to have a look to see if the "board support package" is still supported. You're well out of vendor support and it looks like the last commit to https://github.com/LineageOS/android_kernel_samsung_smdk4210... was 2013.

      The gold standard would be a phone that runs a very-close or actually mainline Linux kernel, but I don't think we're there yet.

      Nexus devices were fantastic, but they're gone now. Pixel, I guess, but I was scared off after the 5X and 6P hardware issues.

AlyssaRowan 7 years ago

Use WPA3-Enterprise (you can use Let's Encrypt to get a valid certificate so it works fine in a home environment).

Don't use SAE (which is, indeed, an instantiation of Dragonfly). I have a strong suspicion that the way it is used, there will be a practical attack.

  • zokier 7 years ago

    Or just use WPA2-Enterprise, afaik there are no pressing security needs to upgrade to WPA3 if you are using EAP, and it is widely supported out of the box

    • xenithorb 7 years ago

      The problem with this I found for home use is that IoT devices don't typically support enterprise modes. And without PSK you just flat-out can't use those devices with WiFi

      • zokier 7 years ago

        Still, I imagine lot more devices support WPA2-EAP over WPA3-EAP that OP recommended.

  • tgsovlerkhgsel 7 years ago

    I was unable to find the spec for SAE as used in WPA3, but SAE itself doesn't seem to hash the shared secret into the session key, which would be an easy way to provide resistance to both quantum attackers and random implementation screwups (e.g. bad PRNGs) that defeat the security of the asymmetric parts of the scheme.

    Basically, take the original password/secret, derive two secrets A and B, run SAE with A as the secret, get a session key K, then use hash(K|B) as the actual session key.

    If they don't have anything like that, I wouldn't be surprised if real-world implementations end up being less secure than up-to-date WPA2.

  • mey 7 years ago

    Can you provide any more info on your concerns about SAE?

alexandernst 7 years ago

Synology Routers support WPA3 by default

  • maxyme 7 years ago

    They also support a mode where they will use WPA3 when supported and fall back to WPA2 when there isn't device support.

    • chaosite 7 years ago

      That's just WPA2 with extra steps.

      • IshKebab 7 years ago

        Not really - if all of your devices use WPA3 the attacker won't be able to brute force your password for example. You might think "if all your devices support WPA3 then why not disable WPA2?". The obvious reason is you might occasionally want to use WPA2 without fiddling around with router settings, e.g. if guests want to use your WiFi without recompiling their phone's kernel.

        Then another obvious but naive response is "then your security is no better than WPA2 anyway" but hopefully it's clear why that isn't the case in the real world.

      • Spivak 7 years ago

        I mean from a security standpoint you're right, but having opportunistic WPA3 seems to be the only sensible way to deploy until you reach acceptable device support.

      • duckerude 7 years ago

        Wouldn't you keep (much of) the advantages of WPA3's forward secrecy?

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