Life Sentence for British Student Draws Criticism for U.A.E
wsj.comNon-paywall: https://outline.com/62WBbd
I don't know why anyone would visit a country with such insane laws, it's just too dangerous. Sure they seem to have a lot of interesting stuff going on and to see, but a big fat NOPE after you read anything about their rules and how they treat people!
A female friend who's a paediatrician was being courted by the Saudi government to come and start a programme there. Women's health - including pregnancy and childbirth - was dreadful because all doctors were male but they weren't allowed to touch or even view women's naked bodies. Breast cancer survival rates were horrific too, and probably still are - this was only a few years ago.
The idea was to move there with her husband, who was an anaesthiologist. Despite loving him dearly and trusting him implicitly she turned down the financially lucrative offer when she discovered that any time she wanted to leave the country she'd have to have a letter signed by him giving his permission. The risk was low but the stakes were far too high.
> when she discovered that any time she wanted to leave the country she'd have to have a letter signed by him giving his permission
Does this clause apply to visitors / non-native citizens / non-muslims also? I thought it only applied to native saudi's from that Saud[1] dude's bloodline.
Not trolling, really don't know.
I have heard a similar thing from friends who played the expat game for a few years. They lived in a compound where they could live as they wanted (within reason: no pork, no porn, etc), but the moment they stepped outside, the wives and daughters had to be chaperoned by a family male (father/husband or brother), or have written permission, wear a hijab, and be driven around by the male driver their company provided. They made a ton of money, but it seriously fucked up their kids who still resent them (the kids were teenagers at the time, that's possibly the worst time to live in such a messed up place)
That's what she said to me - she may have misinterpreted. There were other aspects of life in Saudi Arabia that she didn't like, so it wasn't her only consideration, but given that she thought it was the case it was a clear deal-breaker.
Look at Japan: 23-day police custody period. After that there’s a 99.99% confession rate. Carlos Ghosn, president of Nissan, seems to have just discovered it: He will be interrogated for 12 days. I would never go to such countries.
Japan is not going to torture him, keep him up without letting him sleep are they? They have the rule of law and generally treat people well. You can't seriously compare those countries, can you?
It’s definitely much better than KSA, but 23 days in police custody? Most people would break under the pressure alone - no torture necessary...
Try Sweden... 365 days of policy custody.
There's no limit that I know of.
No, you are correct, there's no limit.
It all depends on the conditions, if you have access to an attorney and are in general safe situations
I would take that than say 1 day in a mexican prison run by the drug cartel
What I heard about treating foreigners in Japanese police stations qualifies indeed as torture. The rule of law applies when you confess.
That is the conviction rate, not the confession rate. Which has completely different connotations.
Indeed, the conviction rate has much to do with police picking “open and shut” cases. Which is why there are cases where murders are instead classified as accidents, if itd be hard to prove a case.
Mark Karpelès, the Mt. Gox guy, was arrested in Japan, interrogated, and he still got off.
Pre-trial detention isn't exactly a japanese invention.
> After that there’s a 99.99% confession rate.
That's because prosecutors in Japan and other countries generally go after "sure" cases.
Canada has a 97% conviction. US has a 93% conviction rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
> Carlos Ghosn, president of Nissan, seems to have just discovered it: He will be interrogated for 12 days. I would never go to such countries.
At least he'll get court case rather than disappearing in a japanese embassy.
Japan has its problem but it's absurd to compare it to the horrors in the middle east.
I'd been to UAE and it is surprisingly lax country. In fact, if you ever want to experience culture of a country with Islam as state religion with all Western amenities, your safest bet might be UAE. They really really value their tourism and foreign investment business. Consequently they will look away most things that are outright violation of laws by foreigners. For example, their law bans sleeve less dress for women in public places but you will find Western women roaming around with it and even low shorts all over. Seeing them walking along side burka clad local women is quite a contrast. I even spotted bunch of Western women in bikini on their famous public beach while local women swimming in ocean with their burka on! No one seem to care. Few things they won't absolutely tolerate, however, is possession of drugs, public consumption of alcohol and anything against their royal family.
In current case, it seems journalists are keeping most details under the wraps. Only thing I can get is that the guy was doing some kind of study on security changes that occurred after Arab spring. He should have known that the topic of rebellion would be big hot potato in any monarchy and the country-wide security study adds lot of fire on the top. The right way to do this would be take permission from the local government, inform them things you will be collecting and make sure embassy works with you on this. There is no information on whether this happened.
Finally, why should any one visit such countries? World is not perfect but is wonderful. Human rights and individual freedom are relatively new things and just 300 years ago doing some study like this even in Western country would have same predicament. It is still important to experience and understand different cultures, points of views and communicate yours to others. That is the essence of travelling the world.
I'd add Oman as a terrific Islamic country to visit. Men and women work alongside each other. Women walk and congregate after dark without male chaperones. It's all quite sane and immaculately kept. Jordan is relaxed too. Lots to see and do in both countries.
Yeah, I'd love to visit there, but it's just too risky. Just because people are getting away with doing stuff that is against the law doesn't mean they can't just turn at a moments notice and say "NOPE" and you are suddenly in a huge pile of shit for something minor.
My "wife" of 12 years is common-law because we don't believe in marriage, I'm not going to risk our lives because they don't respect that.
I'm not saying don't travel to Islamic countries, I'm saying don't travel somewhere you can get royally fucked for something minor.
I wonder if any of the child immigrants currently locked up near the Mexican border would say the same thing now that they've tried to come to America.
Like what? It's a very popular tourist destination. Yes, they treat immigrants bad but calling it dangerous for tourists?
Can you tell me what is so interesting to see in these countries that it’s worth potentially sacrificing your freedom or your life for what we consider minor infractions?
> for what we consider minor infractions?
International spying in this case? I'm not sure thats a minor infraction
Not this specific case but I have read numerous times about small time things that result in decades in prison or worse in these backwards countries, a sibling has provided an example.
In this case I still don’t see what warrants a life sentence.
Dubai is the fourth most popular city to visit in the world after London, Paris and Bangkok. Again, you're completely exaggerating when you say these things happen all the time. In Sweden it's a very common tourist destination and I've never heard anyone that have had problems with law enforcement or anything else. I also know Swedish people who have lived and worked there for extended period of times.
Skyscrapers. But seriously, it sounds like you talk about going to Syria. It's one of the most popular tourist destinations so I think you're exaggerating the danger here.
Like this may be? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/british...
Article is light on details other than to say he was carrying out “legitimate academic research into security policy following the Arab spring”. Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different. Even if this was all totally above board it Seems a bit naive to think this isn’t something that you should get permission and clearance to do. I think the fact that it’s played out this way makes me think it was probably not strictly academic. I guess I will start DDGing more details.
It reminds me of the Czech game developers that spent months in jail for photographing a Greek military base they used as inspiration for a game's setting.
That said, there are entire communities in the US of people who set up cameras outside of airports and military bases to record activities. The folks at airports are doing it to photograph planes, and the people at military bases are usually doing it to see if they can provoke any sort of response. Even the TSA says they can't stop you from photographing security checkpoints, although they would prefer it if you didn't. AFAIK none of these people have been sentenced to life imprisonment.
> US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different
Could you point to a real-life example you have in mind, in which either (or both) the judicial process was so non-transparent, or the punishment so severe? I mean, the obvious situation that comes to mind is Gitmo, but I couldn't think of instances of Gitmo detainees who were legal immigrants or on student visas.
There was recently a Chinese intelligence officer who was extradited to the U.S. to face espionage charges, but AFAIK, that case will be handled in open trial: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/10/us/politics/china-spy-esp...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. comes to mind. Of course the charges were ultimately dropped, but only on condition that Sklyarov testify against his employer. On the other hand this as a DMCA case, not espionage. The reaction was massively unbalanced. If you had a researcher who was deemed to be revealing state secrets, it seems fairly likely that the state would use whatever powers it had to keep the lid on things.
My knowledge about this case comes only from the Wikipedia link you provided, but were the consequences in that case any different than what a U.S. citizen would face? I agree that DMCA cases are problematic to say the least. But I don't think it is at all reasonable to conclude, "If that's the trouble a simple DMCA case gets you, imagine what you face for foreign espionage" -- because we don't really need to imagine the latter. In Sklyarov's case, and in actual espionage cases, we know the details of the charges and judicial proceedings, even if we think the punishment/indictments are out of whack.
We don't seem to really know anything about UAE's case at the present moment. From The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/british-academ...
> However, Emirati press claimed Hedges had confessed to the charges against him and the case had been passed to the state security court. There is no independent confirmation of this claim. Hedges was taken to court in Abu Dhabi twice in October, with the case being adjourned both times.
Again, Gitmo notwithstanding, I can't recall a U.S. case being handle in this fashion:
> Tejada said that during the first six weeks he was interrogated without a lawyer or consular access, and held in “inhuman” conditions under which his mental health deteriorated. During this time he was allegedly made to sign a document in Arabic which it has now been disclosed was a confession statement. Hedges does not speak or read Arabic.
You went totally the other way with the China angle though.
For high profile spying you would get consular help and maybe a spy trade.
No way you would be brought up on made up charges. You also have to consider the free press and the pressure they can apply in the US vs elsewhere.
The UAE press (or KSA, China, etc) operates under much different constraints.
> Let’s say that someone from say China came to the US to stake out airports and study the US’s airport security protocol. I’m not sure the outcome would be much different.
If they did their observations within the law, I don't see what they could be obtained or convicted of.
Maybe a better example is someone from china comes to the us and studies voter suppression tactics from republican legislatures. That would get people's ire up. It could be a perfectly legitimate academic activity. or studying how the fbi surveillance of groups could be considered to be suppressive. Those are unwelcome things from authorities even though they could be happening.
If my memory serves me right the guy was caught a year or two ago and was under heavy investigation by UAE counter-intelligence team.
And a life sentence is not something UAE courts would hand out lightly, especially in these circumstances.
My best guess is that UAE have not got what it asked for to release the guy pre-trial, but will get something now and sheikh will pardon the guy next week.
According to an earlier article [1] he was detained in May, seemingly of this year.
Okay, half a year ago.
Is it your belief that the UAE generally conservative with their prison sentences? What about the guy who had a piece of marijuana, invisible to the naked eye, smaller than a grain of sugar(0.003g), on his shoe - who was jailed for 4 years?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512815/Briton-jaile...
Never claimed that UAE is conservative with prison sentences. But having lived there for decade I can tell, in this particular case we are discussing UAE courts would not be quick to give life sentence.
UAE is in the hot region and their CID is doing an amazing job keeping UAE safe. As I recall this guy's case was somehow related to other much more serious cases where a bunch of UAE nationals got their life sentences as well. I, personally, have little sympathy to those who sabotage and disrupt peace in the region and I have no reasons to suspect CID to play stupid games in this particular case.
It’s absurd that a British citizen, or a citizen of any democratic county, is living and studying in a repressive, corrupt and violent regime like the United Arab Emirates. These countries and their kleptocratic Sheikhs throw wealth derived from oil and blood at western universities, and bribe their officials into setting up “campuses” in their states. Then they get upset when arriving students don’t conform to the apathetic conformity drilled into their own citizens.
The Cold War is over. Yet somehow western democracies are still clinging on to alliances with barbarous regimes like Saudi Arabia and UAE. And now we see the fruits of it: Yemeni citivilians murdered during an unending war, a British citizen imprisoned for life for offending his hosts, and an agent of the Saudi royalty installed as president of the USA. What an utterly pathetic state of affairs.
> The Cold War is over. Yet somehow western democracies are still clinging on to alliances with barbarous regimes like Saudi Arabia and UAE.
That's because those in power are the moderate ones, who are able to keep the most extreme elements of Islamic fundamentalism at bay. You want to topple Saudi Arabia and UAE? Great, now it's run by ISIS. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser evil.
Lmao okay. They're moderate only if you're a privileged European. Have you seen how they treat south and south-east Asians?
The governments of these countries are in no sense “moderate”, and it is absurd to suggest that the only choice they face is between their incumbent autocratic regimes and fundamentalism Islamic ones. Extremists both secular and religious have prospered in the Middle East precisely because western backing for unrepresentative regimes has snuffed out moderate and democratic opposition.
This geopolitical calculus might have made sense when there was a real danger of such countries being swallowed up into the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence. But it would be much better now to disengage as much as possible with the governments of countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
Saudi Arabia is the ISIS that made it so I don't see your point? The beheaded even less so.
If only US and NATO applied that logic to Lybia and Syria
They did for a long time.
Yep. It was easy for us to topple Libya, and we almost succeeded with Syria as well, if Russia hadn't stepped in. A secular government is easy to stir up the fundamentalists against, to use them as foot soldiers in your regime change operation.
They won't have as much luck with Iran, since it's government is so strongly aligned with the fundamentalists, the pool of willing cannon fodder will be smaller.
I hope, at some point, these illegal regime change operations that the US and other western countries have been involved in for so many decades, will eventually stop.
Lybia and Syria had their own rebellions to deal with. Without a popular uprising, it’s very doubtful that the USA would intervene at all like they did before in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say what you will, but the people of a country should have a right to change its government.
Also, when chaos is set into motion, the west has to decide if the costs of not getting involved are greater than getting involved. Often doing nothing isn’t viable either.
It’s not so absurd if he is infact a spy
Why are you acting like these western democracies aren't just as barbarous and cruel?
Because they aren’t “just” as barbarous and cruel.
Violations of civil liberties occur in every country, but If you really believe that the rate and intensity of such is exactly the same in the UK as it is in Saudi Arabia or UAE, then you’re monumentally deluded.
On the intensity you certainly have a point, but on rate, I was recently surprised to see that between 2016 and 2017 there were 970 recorded offenses in England and Wales relating to a 2009 law criminalizing production or possession of a category of Japanese hentai manga. Agree with the law or not, that's a huge number, especially for a topic which is, to the say the least, vigorously debated. For comparison, a similar law in the U.S. was stricken down as unconstitutional (to my knowledge) in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Alliance.
Maybe not to our own people.
Did the UK/US not invade Iraq/Afghanistan, are we not still there? How many governments have we overthrown? How many people have we unjustly imprisoned/killed?
It's not a 1 to 1 type comparison but in my mind it's hard to imagine the US wasn't the most cruel or barbarous civilization in the past 80 years or so.
Noam Chomsky: “Remember the worst terrorist campaign in the world by far is the one that’s being orchestrated in Washington. That’s the global assassination campaign. There’s never been a terrorist campaign of that scale.”
Just because the West is not 100% perfect doesn't mean that both are the same.
You have tons of appeals in US, UK and other Western countries and judges are (at least in USA) super educated and independent. You can be SCREWED if you're poor, the state is hellbent of jailing you and no one takes up your cause but odds of something like the above happening in US or UK are close to zero.
Federal judges, at least in USA, love to keep their independence and to hold the state's feet at the fire. They are a third and SEPARATE branch, in 99% of cases taking a pay reduction to serve.
I agree that there are very unpleasant aspects of western democracies. But to say that, for example, the UK is as cruel and barbaric as Saudi Arabia is overheated rhetoric.
It wasn't very different 70ish years ago. I don't get why folks think that the West is a stellar beacon of freedom; it is quite possible for conditions to relapse to the period of the British Empire, for example.
You're looking for an argument that I don't want to have by taking what I said and twisting it to include historical aspects of those democracies when that clearly wasn't what was being talked about. I'm aware of the horrific histories of many Western democracies, including the UK (empire), Belgium (Congo), Germany (Holocaust) etc. The parent comment was comparing present-day nation states, which is overheated.
I agree. I wonder how many of the people that disagree are people of color who do not come from high ses. our prison industry (3 strikes for non violent crimes, people spending years in jail for minor crimes, arrest quotas) and police homocides against unarmed black and disabled people puts us right up there with them.
Most likely none; this is hacker news, a site targeted towards people in tech, a mostly white/Asian industry.
Russian trolls and their "useful idiots" agree. That's about it.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4684113/matthew-hedges-student-ua...
> Hedges, a 31-year-old doctoral student at Durham University, has been held in the UAE since May 5, when he was arrested at Dubai International Airport after a two-week research visit.
Surely you can't spy in any significant way on a country you entered 2 weeks ago.
> The hearing lasted less than five minutes and his lawyer was not present, his family said.
Surely even if he is a spy, the UK will eventually be able to negotiate his release? How many years could this take? UAE has a lot of revenue from tourism, I don't know how much of that is from the UK, but I assume that provides enough leverage to get something going. I just don't see a life sentence being a true life sentence for any citizen Westerner caught by a nation like the UAE.
UAE and UK are pretty must best friends. Historically they have strong ties from the days of the British empire (Britain was allied with most of the Gulf countries to secure trade routes to India), and even now there are very strong political, economic and royal ties to the country. Most of the Western expats living there are from the UK, and there are a lot of UK financial companies with offices there. Going the other way, London is the place to go for Emiratis that want to escape the summer heat. I'm sure there is a lot more going on behind the scenes to provoke this reaction.
How is this relevant to HN? Isn't "most political stuff" explicitly off topic?
Also, most people calling out UAE to be a "dangerous" place and make misinformed should really learn more before making blanket statements. I have lived there for half of my life and also lived in the world "largest democracy" and also in the US. I feel safer in the UAE as an immigrant than I do in either of those places.
For context, in India you have PSA, AFSPA, etc which are barbaric laws to which thousands of civilians have lost their lives. In the U.S, most of my Muslim friends (and myself included) feel constantly threatened by racism/xenophobia (this includes physical attacks).
Edit: PSA or Public Safety Act is when the Indian Government can "legally" detain you in Kashmir (an area illegally occupied by India, disregarding UN resolutions to hold a referendum) under the pretext that you are a threat to public safety. Children as young as 14 years old have been booked under this act, and jailed.
AFSPA (Armed Forced Special Powers Act) is when the Indian Armed forces can put a bullet in your head and face no judicial probe, which seems like a violation of international law to me.
Bet Saudi Arabia feels real safe now.
Sorry but there are enough incidents coming out of UAE and the arab world (KSA), where it seems easy to run afoul of the law (alcohol, drugs, sex/rape, religion) and end up in big trouble
You go after India but don’t reveal what country you hail from though.
The US is so big though that it’s impractical to make such a blanket statement.
There are mosques in every big city- no one seems to be opressed because of their religious views. You will never be judged for offending a deity or the government.
I am from Indian occupied Kashmir.
I guess I would say there are other cultures in the world centered around other belief systems (not always religious) that are impossible to grasp as an outsider. As somebody who has lived in both KSA and UAE for a long time, I can tell you that people from the UAE are the most generous, kind, and honestly classy people you will come across (something that is not accounted for when generalizing them as a barbaric people like many do in this post)
I have never seen an Emirati as much as yell at somebody in the streets. Happiness of citizens is actively discussed and worked on, on a government level. Seeing the police makes me feel safe, not threatened.
Maybe that’s why there are so many expatriates there.
You should totally visit. It’s an amazing place.
True story : I went on a vacation in Dubai and Abu Dabhi with my wife. 1-2 days priot I sold my iphone to some random guy and brought that cash with me. I imedietly exchanged 100 euros in Dubai after I landed to have some of their currency for small things. I also exchanged larger amount in a hotel before paying for it and moving to a different hotel to explore another part of the emirate.
Anyhow, one day later my phone is ringing with some strange number calling. It was a manager from the first hotel saying that I used counterfited euro bills in their hotel. My heart sank reeeally hard in an instant. He said he is sure because only I exchanged euros before they went to the bank to store the money or whatever. The bank informed them that they are fake bills and by the law he said they need to say who used them. BUT, that was my lucky day and the manager said that they did not report me and will not if I repay them with real money. I imidately agreed and asked them for a way to pay with a CC because I was in another part of the emirate, they agreed and that was settled, I overpeyed a bit because he probably saved me.
After that I ran to my room and took out all the bills I got from the iPhone sale and me and my wife needed almost an hour to figgure out that they are really fake, by looking over the internet and checking what is usually harder to fake. Tell tell sign was the 3d lines/bumps on parts of the bill. Everything else looked perfectly well!!! Now, I was confused why the money changer at the airport did not bust me right away so I went to a mall and exhanged another bill (which was real, not counterfited) and they just took it without checking. Few days later when leaving the country I was very scared on the boreder/aurport police check point but everything went well. Uff. I was so close to having a horror story myself... I immidiately reported to the police in my country what has happened.
Before this I never ever had such experience and always naively trusted random people when I bought and sold things on the internet. Now I know better. Was so close to be really screwed by some random guy because of some small amount of money.
So you got scammed on the internet. How is that relevant or have anything to do with Dubai/Abu Dhabi?
for those that can't read WSJ
These countries are great for vacations, to do business and to work...until they aren't. In reality, and backed by their laws, they are backward and savage fifth world countries. Stay the hell away, or at least calculate the risk of being framed for espionage for telling the truth about the royals or going to jail for consensual sex.
Doesn’t make sense really, the UK military does regular exercises with the UAE, anything they wanted to know about defence they could just go see
Rule of thumb: don't enter any country where you need an exit visa to leave.
You dont need one in UAE.
My mistake then — neighboring Saudi Arabia and Qatar both have an exit visa system, AFAIK.
I used to live there, strange place. Only ever got rejected at clubs for wearing shorts, can you imagine wearing pants in a desert? fuck all that
Yet no word about a Scot being tortured and electrocuted, held in jail for a year.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2604512/jagtar-singh-j...
This was in India. What does it have to do with the U.A.E story???
No criticism for India. But there is for uae