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Fractal Food: Self-Similarity on the Supermarket Shelf (2005)

fourmilab.ch

34 points by ch4ch4 8 years ago · 16 comments

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jakub_g 8 years ago

Chou romanesco is probably a regular thing for people living in southern Europe, but coming from central Europe, it blew my mind the first time I've seen it in a grocery store :)

webnrrd2k 8 years ago

If you like this, then you'd almost certainly love the book "The Computational Beauty of Nature". It explores a lot of similar themes, and is very visual, too.

https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/computational-beauty-nature

justifier 8 years ago

How do those holding opposing views of mathematical realism account for the presence of such plants and similar computed natural phenomena?

  • chestervonwinch 8 years ago

    As I understand it, math realism says that the mathematical object (for example, a class of self-similar sequences) exists whether or not it was discovered by humans. That the mathematical object happens to model some physical phenomenon pretty well is independent of the philosophy of mathematical realism.

    Are you arguing against mathematical realism by saying certain mathematical objects are only discoverable through the observation and modeling of physical phenomenon? A pure math realist would respond that the object in question stills exists, whether or not it was discovered.

    • ubernostrum 8 years ago

      Opposition to mathematical realism also tends to bring in heavy doses of mathematical+cultural relativism, i.e. believing that if a culture decided 2 + 2 = 5 or that the interior angles of a triangle sum to 360 degrees, then those statements would be just as true as "2 + 2 = 4" or "the interior angles of a triangle sum to 180 degrees".

      • justifier 8 years ago

        but this is more about definitions right?

        culture 1 : 2+2=4

        culture 2 : 2+2=5

        translation between culture 1 and 2:

        2==2

        4==5

        180==360

        if you could agree on specific definitions: this is a triangle, this is interior, this is an angle, and this is a degree; you would be unable to come to opposing conditions on the sum of interior angles

        • ubernostrum 8 years ago

          Not really. The relativists aren't saying "oh, your 4 translates to their 5", and in fact are trying to say that such a statement is impossible to make. Your attempt at translation assumes the existence of some culture-independent thing, and tries to say "4" and "5" are different culture-specific symbols for representing that culture-independent thing, whatever it may be. The relativist position is that no such culture-independent thing exists.

          In other words, the relativist believes that:

          * If a culture decides this many objects (represented by dots): ". ." combined with this many other objects: ". .", produce this many objects: ". . . . ."

          * Then that decision is just as valid and just as true as our culture's decision that ". ." objects and ". ." objects make ". . . ." objects.

          The fact that every culture we know of has adopted the second one instead of the first is then explained as some sort of massive coincidence, or perhaps the result of some very old "2 + 2 = 4" culture successfully imposing its norms on everyone else such that it has persisted as a cultural belief to the present day.

          • justifier 8 years ago

            then how would a relativist, as you describe it, justify the forms inherent in this vegetable.. i mean, what's the 'culture' of vegetables?

            • ubernostrum 8 years ago

              They'd say that there are no forms "inherent" in the vegetable. They'd say that your perception of forms which you tie to mathematical concepts is as much an artifact of culture as the mathematical concepts.

            • ubernostrum 8 years ago

              I suppose on further reflection that it might help to pull back the curtain a bit and talk about what's really going on here, because this is an ancient philosophical debate (and I do mean "ancient" in a literal sense -- we're about to go all the way back to the Greeks here).

              "Relativism" is a modern term for one side in one variation of this debate. The traditional names for the sides would be "realism" and "nominalism". And to understand the question they're arguing about, I'll ask a question: is a hot dog a sandwich?

              The internet has taught us there are many people who feel strongly that a hot dog is a sandwich, and many other people who feel just a strongly that a hot dog is not a sandwich. They argue about how to define the term "sandwich" -- does "sandwich-ness" come from the presence of bread? Must there be a certain number of pieces of bread? Must the bread be in one of a small set of permitted shapes? What types of things can be in or on the bread?

              These people are searching for some thing they can predicate of all sandwiches. Some property that is indisputably possessed in common by every sandwich everywhere. What sort of thing is that?

              Anyone who's sat through an intro to philosophy course probably knows Plato's answer. We are, metaphorically, chained to a rock in a cave, facing the back wall. We know there must be a source of brilliant light (perhaps outside the mouth of the cave), since although we can't see it directly we see the light reflected on the cave wall and can tell what direction it's coming from. We know there are other things out there, too, because there are shadows cast on the wall as they move back and forth in front of the light. The metaphor, of course, is that objects in the world are like the shadows cast on the wall of the cave: distorted representations of true forms which exist somewhere else, but that we recognize despite the odd angles or movements they make. Thus we get Plato's theory of forms, which postulates an ethereal-ish realm, inaccessible to us mortals, in which the ideal forms of things exist. We recognize disparate things in this world as sandwiches because they all, to some extent, partake of the Form of Sandwich. Or in cave-metaphor terms, they all are shadows cast on the wall by the Ur-Sandwich moving about in front of the light, and though they may look superficially quite different from each other, we recognize the common origin of them all (Plato had a quasi-religious explanation for our knowledge of the forms and what they were).

              To be a realist is to be committed, on some level, to a theory not dissimilar from Plato's. We can dress it up in nicer terminology, and cover up some of the seeming absurdity of there being an ideal Form of Sandwich in some astral plane somewhere, but ultimately this is what realism says. In some cases it's used to talk about properties (such as color: "red" may refer to many different hues, but we use a single umbrella term for all of them -- in what sense do they all share "redness"?). In mathematical realism, it is used to talk about (roughly) theorems of mathematical systems. Mathematical realism is a commitment to the existence of these theorems in some form which is independent of human minds; the theorem would exist, and be a theorem, regardless of whether any human ever discovered or proved it.

              In many ways this is a very convenient way to talk about mathematics (as well as to talk about a lot of other things). It allows us to say that "two and two make four" and "deux et deux font quatre" are in some way the same statement, though expressed in different words. It gives us an entity which can tie together many disparate things and serve as the commonality between them all.

              But it also seems ludicrous and overcomplex to a lot of people. One of the earliest critiques of Plato's theory of forms was that they must be infinite in number (in brief: given any set of objects and a form they all partake of, it is possible to prove the necessity of another form to tie together the first form and the objects; from there, yet another can be proven as necessary to tie together the objects and the first two, and so on to infinity). Willard Van Orman Quine joked at the proliferation of entities in such systems (leading to absurdities such as the existence of nonexistence), dubbing it "Plato's beard" and claiming that it would dull the edge of Occam's razor.

              Enter nominalism. Nominalism, simply put, says that there is no Form of Sandwich, or property of "sandwich-ness", or anything else that all sandwiches have in common apart from being given the label "sandwich" by people. Membership in the set of sandwiches -- or any of the other categories realists invent entities to provide commonality for -- is arbitrary, and we identify membership in that set not by recognizing some common property possessed independently of the label, but by rote memorization or heuristic application of cultural guidelines.

              Nominalism, then, would deny that a mathematical theorem has any existence independent of the minds of humans. It does not sit timelessly, waiting to be discovered: it is created, it is invented, by humans, and insofar as it follows rules or has properties, it does so only because humans have constructed it, the rules, and the properties.

              After the ever-increasing complexity of realism, nominalism can seem like a breath of fresh air, a welcome clearing of the tangled thicket of strange entities realists sooner or later end up committed to.

              But, of course, nominalism comes at a price, and that price turns out to be heavy. A nominalist cannot admit that, say, your vegetable's physical appearance and a mathematical formula have anything truly in common other than a human desire to label them as such. The formula is not a natural thing, to a nominalist, and does not exist independently of the humans who invented it. The realist believes the formula would continue to exist, and the vegetable would continue to follow it, even if all humans suddenly vanished. But the nominalist must deny this, and say that the vegetable only "follows" the formula because humans have said it does, and if the humans all vanished there would no longer be any humans to say things about the vegetable. Similarly, the nominalist must say that spiral galaxies would no longer be spiral, because this is a concept created by humans; absent humans to label them, they would not be spiral in any meaningful sense.

              From there, the logical conclusion is more or less absolute cultural relativism. If the vegetable only follows a formula because we say it does, what if some other group of people came along and said it didn't? What if they had an entire belief system, as well-developed and complex as our own, for the vegetable following some quite different formula? Who would be right in that case? Since there is no independently-existing "real" formula for the vegetable to "really" follow, the answer is nobody can say who is right; we can only say that both sets of beliefs about the vegetable are equally human-created and equally believed by their respective groups.

              This is, of course, incredibly unsatisfying and at odds with how much we've accomplished by believing that there is real correspondence between mathematics and the physical world. But to some people it's a better option to choose over the mess they feel realism will inevitably land them in.

              • justifier 8 years ago

                How can nominalism be defined for a nominalist?

                How does a nominalist account for Godel?

    • justifier 8 years ago

      it was difficult to frame this question

      because the philosophy of mathematics has so many branches with even more leaves i just went with the vague 'opposing' of one branch to cover as much ground as possible

      in doing so i was moreso hoping to encourage others would define their own philosophical views on mathematics

      i suppose if i was 'arguing against' anything it was more against a sort of mathematical formalism that states math only exists in the mind, or the axioms defined by human minds

      if one can construct fractals and then encounter a plant like this it would seem validating to infer the mathematics being utilised by both the plant and the mathematician does indeed exist outside both

  • colordrops 8 years ago

    What phenomenon is NOT computed i.e. following a set of exact rules that play out over time?

    • justifier 8 years ago

      i'd tend to agree with this proposition, but i was asking because i wanted to have my views challenged

      i rarely get an opportunity to debate the philosophy of mathematics and i was trying to use this article about this common found mathematical object whose form expresses that computation explicitly to open a dialogue in that capacity

      with that in mind, what are you trying to say philosophically with your question?

      from your question i am inferring.. perhaps incorrectly, feel free to correct me.. that you think all phenomena are computed

      what are the philosophical consequence of such a view?

      Realism is the correct philosophical view? Formalism? Some other?

      • colordrops 8 years ago

        I wasn't really looking at it from a philosophical perspective, and I'm a layman at philosophy, and don't know the difference between Realism and Formalism. And actually I don't believe EVERYTHING is following exact rules, which is why I posed my comment as a question. I do believe there is at least a subset of reality that follows rules, which is why math and science works, and most daily phenomena that surround us are subject to those rules. In fact if you believe you found something that is not, you'll be called a nut job by most scientifically minded people. That being said, I'll reveal my own belief, and that is that the layer underneath our clockwork world could be governed by a different set of rules or perhaps no rules at all. I don't have much evidence for that other than psychedelic experience and wishful thinking, but it seems odd to me that there are any rules at all in the first place, rather than an infinitely malleable canvas, so my intuition tells me that our experience is a purposeful limitation on that rule-free layer for some unknown or unknowable purpose.

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