H-1B draft with proposed changes [pdf]
lofgren.house.govSection 2.
That's what matters if you're an Indian with an I-140 dated 2009, afraid to change his H1B job, despite salary or personnel issues. (Also, ask me about why I'm not starting up).
That one section prevents this "you can quit anytime you feel like" threat held over Indian employees by employers, because an I-140 for the employee is issued to the employer.
An employee with mobility between employers is no longer forcing the wages down.
That does not prevent a company from sending the same job to India, because it suddenly costs so much, but it does prevent the lowering of wages due to people putting up with abusive or near-illegal employment practices.
This is good for the local economy and basically makes an "outsourcing" employee irresponsible if she doesn't jump to an american firm who will do her paperwork right.
Raising the salaries all around.
(delete mini-rant about living expenses and salaries - increased pay all around isn't always what it's cracked up to be)
That section alone, shifts the balance of power between an employer and an H1b holder.
I was a free market libertarian until about last week, when I finally got sick of being lectured and called names by tech billionaires. Now I'm for anything that helps me financially, and hurts these people.
If the H1B program were abolished entirely, my compensation would shoot up there with doctors' and lawyers', and the tech billionaires would be slightly less rich.
This measure doesn't go that far, but it's a step in that direction.
No, your compensation won't shoot up. Tech companies will move to cheaper areas like Philippines, Eastern Europe etc. India is already becoming expensive and companies like Infosys have already moved to China: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/infosys-to-ope...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703509104576328... (Infosys China Plans to Triple Staff to 10,000)
It's harder to outsource doctors because of multitude of reasons (Healthcare is country dependent, patients can't be transported, medicines are different in each country)
I am on H1b and I have noticed the body shops too, even worked for one. Bills like this doesn't address the core issue of H1b abuse and only exacerbates the issues.
I think you drastically overestimate how much doctors and layers make. Just like most jobs, the highest salaries are the exception.
It also seem likely that opening an office outside of the USA may become an interesting alternative. Then your wage and your job may be at risk. If impact to you is how you evaluate things, it would seem like there's room for worries.
> It also seem likely that opening an office outside of the USA may become an interesting alternative. Then your wage and your job may be at risk. If impact to you is how you evaluate things, it would seem like there's room for worries.
There are a lot of people on this thread who don't understand how the law of supply and demand works.
Supply can go down. But don't forget that demand can also go down.Car manufacture isn't the only job that can be outsourced.
Reposting my comment from the other thread [1]:
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While TCS, Infosys etc figure prominently in the H-1B debate, I think this new bill does not affect them as much as it is made out to be. The real downside is for staffing firms (popularly known as "desi consulting shops"), mostly run by Indian-Americans.
TCS employs 370K+ employees worldwide and had revenue of $16B+ in 2016. They might have gotten 3K H-1Bs each year. If they know how to run projects staffing 370K employees with 3K H-1Bs per year, they will figure out a way to run it with 500. Also, with that kind of revenue, they will pay the $130K if it comes to that.
H-1Bs, I suspect, have a power law distribution. TCS, Infosys etc top the list of H-1B visas per year, but there is a long tail of companies which get allotted few visas every year. Some of these in the long tail are high tech firms in real need of skill and are the ones paying appropriately for it (AmaFaceGoodSoft etc). But I think the larger cohort are the staffing shops which bend the rules often and pay low.
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"desi consulting shops" might even run fake payrolls to bypass(break) the laws. As someone who has seen them closely, it is common practice for them to pay an employee $110K on paper but $60K in real.
Isn't that highly illegal?
Highly illegal and HIGHLY common. When my wife moved here (I uprooted her career because of our marriage), she spoke to a few of these people. It was way easier to get an illegal job, and better green card prospects (don't know why).
> I uprooted her career because of our marriage
This is a huge problem by itself. H-4 EAD after I-140 is not enough because that forces you to stay with your current employer until you get your I-140. If you are going to restrict H-1B to highly skilled immigrants, then H-4 EAD should be eligible for any H-1B holder's spouse regardless of I-140 status. Otherwise you are basically saying "we only welcome highly skilled immigrants that are single"
Things are much better these days with proprietors, HR folks and lawyers of these firms getting jail sentences.
Many of them? I saw a couple in the news, so there is a general push in the right direction I guess.
Looks like a good move, aimed at reducing H1B misuse by the outsourcing companies that arbitrage wages for large employers like Microsoft, while enabling move visas for other employers.
Curious to see how this bill would prevent the major outsources from forming a load of subsidiaries and gaming the system anyway. Maybe it's more of a bill for show, than to actually solve anything.
Also, for those jobs with lower income potential, the question still stands - can the employers find enough US citizens to take on those jobs (and do them well), given the the low salary.
"Unless dependent employers compensate their H-1B workers above the required wage level, they must make attestations regarding recruitment and non-displacement of U.S. workers"
Does this mean that a company can pay below the 130k if it can prove that it's not possible to hire an American even with higher wages?
Yes. That's the point of an H-1B visa - to recruit highly-skilled workers when American workers are not available.
Yes, the 130k figure does nothing in practice.
And yet all the panic portrayed by the press is generated by the 130k figure.
Yes. Imagine a school trying to employ a Sanskrit teacher. It is impossible to expect them to pay $130K.
Section 8 provides a way to make it easier for students to immigrate by allowing dual-intent.
Yup this seals the deal for this proposal. If you are a student who obtains a degree at a USA college and if you can find a competitive job then "Welcome to the USA". So basically as a foreigner you have to be an above average student.
That's great news. I firmly believe we should be stapling greencards to the back of higher education diplomas.
As a software developer and a US citizen, this is to my advantage. I hope it quickly becomes the law of the land.
How is this to your advantage? Are you having hard time securing a full-time dev job with a US tech company? Last time I checked, there was more demand and shortage of supply for smart programmers (I have been interviewing a lot). Do you happen to work in a region where there are less tech jobs?
It's simple economics. H1B's increase the supply of developers in the US, relative to the demand. And that drives the price of developers (i.e. wages) down. I don't think any intelligent person can fail to understand that.
To answer your question, I don't have trouble finding or keeping employment. This move will simply drive up my market value. So I'm for it.
> It's simple economics. H1B's increase the supply of developers in the US, relative to the demand. And that drives the price of developers (i.e. wages) down. I don't think any intelligent person can fail to understand that.
The simple economics you are quoting will argue against protectionism. Even hypothetically assuming it will increase wages it will in turn make it costly to innovate and increase the cost of services for average American consumer.
If Citibank charges $25 monthly fee they might have to charge $30 to make the same money. That generally hurts American consumer just the way American protectionism towards Steel and Sugar industry hurts American consumers while benefiting special interest groups.
For those of us who have taken Econ 101 can tell you that this is even worse for resources such as human mind. The marginal impact on salaries with every additional H1B US taken in next to 0 simply because Job at higher end are not zero sum game. Each extra person helps grow the pie significantly this increasing the salaries even further.
For low value jobs such as a gardener, a cheaper labor will replace the expensive one because having two gardeners does not increase the productivity of the employer by 2X. But for high-end jobs such as say a Doctor, having many doctors would mean more drugs, faster solution to diabetes and cancer.
> The simple economics you are quoting will argue against protectionism. Even hypothetically assuming it will increase wages it will in turn make it costly to innovate and increase the cost of services for average American consumer.
You're quite right, of course, and until about a week ago, I would have opposed this change to the law on that basis. But I've had a bellyful of being lectured and name-called by self-righteous billionaires. So now whatever hurts them and helps me, I'm all for.
And although protectionism does hurt a country overall, it helps individuals and companies that are protected from competition. And for this change to the H1B law, I fall into that group. So bring on the protectionism, I say.
This was a nice stroll through fantasy land.
The reality though is that H-1B has been so completely abused over the past decade to the point that wages for skilled Americans have suffered a serious pushdown effect.
It's not the fault of the workers, and if this goes through we're sad that folks will feel some pain, but it's about time this gets patched up.
How do you figure? Right now, consulting companies spam the lottery with shitty jobs. With the new system favoring quality $130k+ jobs there will be a bigger supply of good H1Bs to compete with.
I'm very unsure about this, but thinking maybe I should hurry and buy a house if this passes.
> You sure about that? Right now, consulting companies spam the lottery with shitty jobs. With the new system favoring quality $130k+ jobs there will be a bigger supply of good H1Bs to compete with.
The supply is artificially set by law. The fact that they will cost $130K instead of whatever it was before will make it much easier for me to compete with them.
It might also make it economically feasible for US companies to hire US workers who might not have all of the needed skills, and train them. That works for me.
It should make it easier for Americans to get the jobs Infosys is hiring for at $70k, and harder for Americans to get jobs from Google at $250k.
> It should make it easier for Americans to get the jobs Infosys is hiring for at $70k, and harder for Americans to get jobs from Google at $250k.
Why would it make a qualified American developer less attractive to Google?
Because it will become easier to import someone who is more qualified.
It will be more expensive. How will it become more easier?
Because the visas are distributed by lottery, and the largest number of applications are filed by Isfosys-type spammers. People with >$130k jobs in SV are being denied due to the $70k body shops spamming the lottery. If the spam goes away, those non-spam applications become a more reliable proposition.
There's nothing wrong with working for Infosys. How many people you think are capable and want to work for Google?
I'm not saying it's morally right or wrong. I'm just saying the set of people that get H1B visas will change, and the shift will be toward higher-end jobs.
By definition, increasing barriers to entry, drives supply down. Holding demand constant, and assuming price elasticity: Lowering supply, increases "prices" (in this case salaries).
Assumption, demand is constant: I'm talking about demand in the economic sense, i.e. The demand curve. The demand curve is left unchanged by this bill. i.e. We still need the same number of software developers, and for any $X/person companies are willing to hire Y number of people.
Assumption, Price Elasticity: For the most part this assumption holds because, fortunately, software companies do seem to be making profits. Implying, they have the means to increase wages.
All in all, this is in the best interest of any person in a profession where many H1-Bs currently hold a position, and whose company is currently profitable.
> The demand curve is left unchanged by this bill
Globally, sure, but the global supply of labor in any field isn't changed, only the US supply. In many cases, H-1B work isn't extremely location-sensitive, and foreign suppliers are acceptable substitutes to local suppliers.
To the extent this is true in any field, the effect of restricting visa supply is to offshore more work.
Great point! I did not address the global talent pool, I only considered the US as a closed system.
That is because I disagree with: "In many cases, H-1B work isn't extremely location-sensitive, and foreign suppliers are acceptable substitutes to local suppliers"
For an H-1B, US companies go out of their way to recruit remote talent, pay legal fees, take on risk, to get a talented worker to come work in the US.
For a significantly reduced cost to employer, they could have recruited that same worker in their country of origin, and pay them for working in their country of origin.
If H-1B work is location in-sensitive as you suggest, why do for-profit companies, take on additional costs, risks, and pay higher wages for the same talent?
This. Outsourcing to India had slowed down in the last few years because wages in India shot up and it didn't make sense to outsource.
See: http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/29/mitra-india-outsourcing-tec...
The wages for IT workers rose insanely in India. In places like Salt Lake (where IBM, CTS and other bigwigs are established) they drove the real estate prices by more than 10x in few years.
The decline started few years back when the cost to outsource was nearly equal to paying an H1b person or hiring a local.
Most tech companies including Apple & Google hardly pay any tax, would you really expect them to pay artificial rates for labor?
Sounds like no one is hurt by this then. Let's do it.
Depending on the company, I'm usually considered a "lead developer", architect, or some other title that requires me to spend 30-50% of my time either in meetings with business people, designing, planning, or mentoring. I have trained hard for those skills. I don't see companies outsourcing software engineers, if all a developer can do is sling code around without understanding system development and architecture, they are no less of a commodity than the factory worker getting outsourced.
I do not think so.
Everything mostly follows the path of least resistance. Economy, finance, etc. The actual law of the land is and will always be: profit.
H-1B was a viable way to make profit, so it became popular. Once it is not longer profitable, people will look for something else.
Will the new way be hiring American workers? maybe... Maybe it will be hiring from coding camps for less, maybe it is moving to another country, or almost anything.
It doesn't necessarily have to be hiring Americans computer science graduates. Someone will find the way and everyone will follow.
yeah man, imagine people with specialized skills having salary increases that once again keep up with housing prices
whaaaat?
Would love to know how! Our company just move one of our department to Pune because it was hard to get H1Bs. With that I think at least 4 Americans lost their jobs.
>Would love to know how! Our company just move one of our department to Pune because it was hard to get H1Bs. With that I think at least 4 Americans lost their jobs.
What greedy, heartless, unpatriotic company do you work for? I'm sure a massive name-and-shame campaign against them will convince them to restore those 4 jobs.
And perhaps the Republicans could explore the possibility of imposing surcharges on fees paid to offshore development shops, to encourage a more "America First" mindset in greedy companies who lay off American workers and offshore the work.
> What greedy, heartless, unpatriotic company do you work for?
Just the kind that almost every American works for and little better than the owned by out President. If you know any unselfish, living, patriotic company that is also profitable that pays well please refer me I will join there!
> Republicans could explore the possibility of imposing surcharges on fees paid to offshore development shops, to encourage a more "America First" mindset in greedy companies who lay off American workers and offshore the work.
We think that as a real possibility and intend to bypass it too.
I know you have been sarcastic.
> I know you have been sarcastic.
No, I'm quite serious. I've had a bellyful of being lectured by boy billionaires. Anything that helps me and hurts them, I'm all for.
Sets aside 20% of the annual allocation of H-1B visas for small and start-up employers
But will there be enough small companies willing and able to hire H1B workers at that salary level? This might just have the effect of reducing the number of visas that are actually given out, as some of this 20% will remain unused.
Except that it's yet another loophole that will be abused to continue business as usual.
Everyone seems to think that H1-B visas are just for tech employees. What about other professional service fields like RN's in private and public or community clinics, doctors e.t.c. I doubt all eligible jobs can pay the proposed amount. Also what about geographic cost of living adjustment? If anything this bill concentrates high wages in the pasts and maybe Chicago. I don't know how this changes the equation for middle America.
There are some good things in there, in particular 6. MARKET-BASED H-1B VISA ALLOCATION. However what is missing is a month by month allocation, which would be much more competitive than the existing yearly, April 1st allocation.
If you are in Zoe Lofgren's district, please send her comments here: https://lofgren.house.gov/contact/
I am a bit confused about $130,000 limit. A $130,000 salary in NYC is way different than a small town in Mississippi. Should not it be regional average?
The most economically productive businesses are located in the most expensive areas, because they get the highest ROI from hiring top employees. Skilled workers get paid less in MS because the national economy needs skilled workers less in MS.
FWIW, reading this from the other side of the pond (which suddenly got way cheaper), I would not come to NYC or SV for $130k. I can cope much better on much less and I don't have to 'create $130k+" of value every to justify my employment. In other words this bill may work a little too well - even if some companies are willing to pay that much it's no longer that attractive to come over and match those expectations...
Is this in fact the same H-1B bill that is likely to pass congress and the President's signature? I ask as the sponsor of the bill, Rep. Lofgren, is the (Democratic) congresswoman for downtown San Jose.
Other relevant discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13529792