How I missed an engineering interview after getting singled out by Münchner cops
vid.bina.meIn defense of the Munich police (which is not always friendly but mostly respectful), the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge.
Being checked when entering Germany from the Netherlands isn't so unusual though, as there are lots of people trafficking drugs across the border (mostly on a small scale though). Friends of mine got checked several times as well even though they're "European looking", but I haven't heard from cases where people got taken to a police station for further inquiry.
As a German I'm sorry that this happened, because I actually think we got one of the most friendly and helpful police forces in Europe.
Concerning your dismissal at the police station: As far as I know you would have had the right to be driven back to your original location in Munich afterwards. My advice: Complain. In Germany, this is the best way to get what you want :D
The author did claim in the article that he's a dutch citizen and presumably the police would know this since they confiscated his passport. I'm not sure about the status of the refugee crisis in Bavaria, but I'd wager a guess that most of the people illegally entering the region or trafficking drugs aren't EU citizens on a business trip.
The author wasn't just "checked" (which I assume happens to everyone on the bus), he was asked to get off the bus, searched again on a public street, heard disparaging comments made about him by a police office, and was again checked in the police station and asked to strip naked.
Of course I wasn't there and I don't actually know what happened, but from the version of events written here there's a very obvious and very uncomfortable conclusion to be reached. The thing about racism like this is that there's always an element of plausible deniability to it. No cop is going to come out and say "we're detaining you because you're black and you fit the profile", but when it does happen to you it's very obvious what's going on.
If anyone is curious, the author's image can be found on his company's website. He's David Asabina - http://en.solarswing.nl/our-team/
As I said in another thread, racism is a problem in Germany and you can't deny the fact that people in the police force might be racist or biased against certain groups of people. I just think the picture the author paints of the German police force is maybe a bit too harsh, which is why I tried to find a possible explanation. I can absolutely understand his anger though and I do not try to defend the actions of the police here.
> racism is a problem in Germany
racism is a problem everywhere. As a non-white person, I can assure you that my compatriots are some of the most racist I've met.
Basing my view on the story he outlined I don't think he is too harsh on them - if anything, I admire him for being able to compose such a civilized letter. There are parts of it which are maybe a bit harsh (better-than-canine sniffing abilities - my words), but I wouldn't be able to restrain myself as much as him in a similar situation.
Perhaps you think that police are friendly and helpful because of your experiences. So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.
Perhaps we could experimentally test your hypothesis of friendly police behaviour. Start wearing dreadlocks, put on baggy pants and some other more 'hip-hop' looking clothes. Put some colour on your face and make it look darker.
Do this for a year, and _then_ tell us what you think.
There definitely is subtle or even open racism in Germany, and it is true that some people will treat you very differently if you look "non-European". Appearance-based or racial profiling is also inarguably done by the police and is definitely injust as well. The best we can do to fight this is to stand up for each other, and in fact I often see people doing this and openly intervening and calling out on people that are being racist. While this does not solve the problem of racism it at least creates a climate where racism is seen as something that is not tolerated, which in turn will help to drive it back.
I agree 100%.
I didn't mean to attack you personally, it's just very easy to become blind to things that don't affect you personally. The last paragraph of the blog post touches on this as well. I still think it would be an interesting experiment, because of course my opinions on Bavarian police are also based on extrapolation from anecdotes that i have heard.
Heh,
You don’t even have to dress differently, just change your skin color. I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends who share the same socio-economic profile, but our experiences with the police have been vastly different (I’m in the U.S and talking about the Boston area).
So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.
There's nothing like the irony of trying to combat bigotry with generalizations.
I am from Germany. Bavarian police is famous here. They do profiling based on your looks, it is called "Verdachtsunabhängige Personenkontrolle". I have heard plenty of complaints from people living in Bavaria, e.g. wearing dreadlocks means you are virtually guaranteed a number of searches and stops by police per year, without any probable cause or even a crime having happened.
If they did this to the majority of Bavarians, things would change quickly. So therefore my guess...
Also from Germany and heard the same stories about police in Bavaria. Bavaria is a lot more law and order than most other German states (some people compare this with the situation that Texas is a lot more law and order than most other US states; I really don't know whether this comparison fits or not).
Is Bavaria considered the Texas of Germany?
> So here is a guess: you are white, you have a standard hairstyle, you wear standard clothes.
One can't help one's colour, but one can help one's hairstyle and clothes. How one presents oneself is one aspect of one's communication with others, to include the police. If one broadcasts the message, 'I am likely to be a petty criminal' to the police, one should expect to be harassed.
Sorry, but this is such a dumb argument. I'm black, I dress conservatively, similar to my white friends, we share the same socio-economic background, but yet the treatment we get from the police is vastly different (random 'dwb' stops, harrasment, and in one case a very pissed off white cop who hated the fact that my wife is white). Oh, and about 70% of my friends have smoked weed at some point in their life. I've never done so (but guess who has been stopped multiple times and searched, both while driving and having committed no crime, and a couple of times when walking)
(1) All persons shall be equal before the law. (2) Except the person looks like a petty criminal
If I walk up to a police officer and tell them I'm a threat to them I expect to get extra attention I probably won't like. Pretending like body language and other forms of communication don't send the same message is disingenuous.
So, having darker skin makes someone a threat?
Darker skin does not equal threatening body language.
So what body language was James Blake showing when he was tackled by police, or Amadou Diallo when he was shot 41 times by plainclothes cops. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to justify racism.
I'm completely unfamiliar with both of those names but based on the way you phrased it I'm happy to accept your implication that police officers involved behaved inappropriately and probably illegally. I don't see what that has to do with what I said. If you're a white dude wearing a biker gang jacket and generally acting the fool I expect you to be harassed the same way I expect a black person wearing gang colors and reeking of pot to be harassed. This isn't rocket science.
Like this "thug"?
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/walking-while-black-beverl...
Let me guess, you're white?
Another this-is-how-the-world-works apologist on HN.
Well, you get to ignore reality at your own peril.
That sounds very similar to the "what was she wearing when she got harassed" mentality which I believe was frowned upon around here.
Reality is not idealism. It would be ideal if people didn't have to care what they were wearing and I don't think people disagree with "that would be a better world".
The keywords are "that would be a better world" compared to "this is the world we live in".
You don't see people going into a ghetto at night wearing a Rolex watch, a 20kt gold chain, a money clip in their suit pocket, and another wad of cash sticking out of their back pocket.
Those sort of people, the kind ignorant of reality, end up being mugged or robbed. While nobody thinks "they deserve to be robbed" people will say "what the fuck was he doing walking into a ghetto wearing $25,000 in jewelry? Of course he was going to get robbed."
Recognizing reality for what it is instead of what people wish it to be is different than victim blaming. People will try to conflate the former for the latter though.
Yes. My opinion on both issues is similar (one party may be to blame for an act, but the other can still be considered as behaving irresponsibly), and I am surprised that my comment has not yet been downvoted to the lowest circle of hell.
How you dress and how you present yourself definitely has an effect on how a person people perceives you. This is human nature and will never change.
If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.
> If you are in a business suit and wearing a nice tie, regardless of skin color, you will be treated well.
I know just posting 'lol' would simply get me down voted but I have the urge to because it's just laughable.
Anyway there are plenty of examples where this is not the case.
Here's one of countless others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_98ojjIZDI
At 9:35 if you don't care about the rest.
One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens.
It seems you arent going to listen to reason. It doesnt really matter much to me. I will continue to dress appropriately and be treated well.
I also find it funny that you sent me your proof in the form of a skit from a comedy show (which can be cut, stopped, and changed, to push a specific agenda)..lol?
> One example is not proving anything. You are trying to tell me on a systematic level, it happens.
Systematic? I told you you're wrong and that's a fact. You said if you just wear a suit etc, you're treated well. I showed you, that's not true. It's that simple. And no I didn't prove this with a comedy show, I proved it by giving an example of a correspondent of one of the most watched television shows in the US who was 'dressed splendidly in a tailored suit', yet he was stopped. That's not comedy, it's a fact that throws your contention in the trash. Obviously I can't prove anything systematic with anecdotal evidence (which I didn't allude to, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth), just like you can't prove anything systematic on the basis of your own personal experience. What I can do is merely refute you'll always get treated well as long as you simply wear a suit and I think that's obvious.
Either way it's a pretty sad state of affairs one can't wear normal attire or sports attire because you'd be risk getting harassed by police. The notion I'd want to wear some kind of civility-uniform just to not get wrongfully harassed by people who serve me, who I pay through my taxes, is silly. And it's especially painful when this requirement largely falls upon people who happened to be born with a certain skin color (as OP's example, supported by many, many studies of racial profiling, shows). To then even feel required to wear a suit, purely to not be treated wrongfully because you have a certain skin color, is degrading. And even then as my example (one of many) shows, you may still be stopped. But feel free to dress 'appropriately', whatever that means. Perhaps it's time for police to send us a manual every year on what we're allowed to wear, you know, what's appropriate, what prevents undue harassment.
Its a show. I honestly dont believe anything i see on a comedy sketch show, especially one as heavily politicized as the daily show. Once again, this is not 'proof' of anything.
Im also not wrong. If you wear a suit, you will be treated better than if you wear casual/hip-hop clothes. Ive seen it myself (and with my friends white and non-white) plenty of times.
Its not just the police. Everyone has an impression of you based on how you present yourself and will treat you accordingly.
You dont need a manual, just common sense.
One example doesn't prove anything, but neither does saying "this is the case, I'm right".
(For what it's worth I have a semi-unrelated anecdote: I'm 25, and in the UK if I buy alcohol or cigarettes in a t-shirt and jeans then I'd estimate I get asked for ID maybe 90% of the time in a shop or 50% in a bar, if I wear even a shirt and jeans, yet alone something smarter... I don't think I've been asked for ID dressed like that in years. Now I live in France though, and haven't been ID'd here ever.)
> the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge right now.
Politics are making sure they are and breathe down their necks all day. The CSU wants nothing more than an escalation so they can show their voters how hard they crack down on the "evil migrants".
> The CSU wants nothing more than an escalation
This is going too far. The CSU is against immigration so they would prefer if the refugee crisis would be over. They also really _are_ scared of not "integrating" refugees properly, so the idea that they would prefer a failure seems far-fetched to me.
Would complaints not have potential to escalate the situation? Speaking as a colored American here. (I haven't been randomly searched before on the street or bus, but I've learned to be deferential if not for the sake of expediency, at the Airport when passing through TSA).
While there inarguably is some -often subtle, occasionally open- racism in Germany the law is usually on your side and the system to enforce it is (mostly) working. Openly arguing and even (verbally) fighting with police men/women isn't so unusual here and I think knowing and insisting on your rights is more likely to make the police handle you more cautiously (as they know you know your rights) rather than escalate the situation. Only speaking from my limited experience as a "European looking" person though, so don't take my word for it.
It's not unusual to be checked coming from Holland. Then again, police being disrespectful, giving condescending replies, being commandeering and taking advantage of uninformed people is not exactly unheard of. In fact, once an individual has been targeted it's par for the course in many a place.
It's a shame but no wonder that police force turns abrasive so often given that they handle so many abrasive people.
That so? I'm Czech and Bavarian police is famous here, for years, for targeting Czech cars and bullying the passengers (stops without probable cause, extensive searches under false pretenses, picking all CZ, and only CZ, cars from traffic, the list goes on). "Respectful" is not a word we associate with German cops here.
This defense doesn't quite work out. I've heard these stories about Bavarian police doing Racial Profiling on buses, trains and highways again and again before there was any refugee crisis. Experienced it myself too. It's reality, please don't try to play it down.
Its Germany police, just slightly hint at them being acting like nazies and they will back away.
Or call them Nazis to their face if you want to go on a fun ride :-)
Does this work for you?
Bit mean.
I agree with that, but if it works.
Regardless of weather or not the search was warranted in this case it often seems like much of the hardship and resentment could be mitigated by the tiniest amount of curtesy on the part of the police. I don't understand why cops are often (not always) such total dicks about this stuff. Does treating people like shit really further their aims? Is the thinking that some how they'll "smoke out the guilty" when their anger get's the better of them or something?
Imagine you make an omelette every morning, or a grilled cheese sandwich every lunch. Imagine when you first start this habit, you make every meal with care. If you've seen the movie "Chef," remember the scene where he's making a grilled cheese sandwich; I've never seen such care.
But you're not Chef, you're just a guy making a routine breakfast or lunch. As time goes by you get used to the routine. It's just an omelette or sandwich, you'll never think of each particular one once it's consumed. If there's a hole in an omelette, or the bread in the sandwich is skewed, you won't even remember it later in the day. It's just a thing you do every day, and despite any earlier desire to be the best omelette or sandwich maker, the only really important thing is that you've eaten.
Those cops do that job every day, and the only important thing to them is that they've taken someone off the bus and searched them, and they can then report that. Discovery of contraband is just a bonus.
The do it every day, and unless they find something they will never see "you" ever again. In fact they don't even see "you" during the event. You're just a resource so that they can make a report.
You're just a resource.
Would it ever occur to you to apologize to your sandwich for being less than perfect?
Would it ever occur to those police to notice the individual, in a routine played out every day, and apologise or even acknowledge?
You're just a resource.
Hairdressers and doctors (and even more so baristas) have all the same situation, and yet they usually find means to be polite.
So no, it's not excuse, never was, never will be.
It's not an excuse. It's a description.
The difference between civilian occupations and law enforcement is that cops look for bad. They see everyone with suspicion. It's a conflict, where the occupations you list all participants have essentially the same goal. An interaction as described with cops is not voluntary and both sides have different motivations: to get away as quickly and non-disruptively as possible, vs trying to find evidence of any crime you might have committed.
When you buy something, you have very different motivation than seller does, there's a conflict of interests.
Most people aren't criminals so police should be polite by default. They should be providing an example first, looking for criminals second. Unless they're on the chase of a known criminal, of course. Unfortunately, these days it is not enforced by anything, so we should take steps to restore those affairs.
Right, next time the police are impolite I'll go to the competition.
That is neither excuse for them nor for you.
Hairdressers, doctors, and baristas operate in a market of free choice. Their motivation to be polite is that customers will go elsewhere if they don't.
Police officers have a monopoly in their industry. If you're being detained, you can't choose to take your business to another police jurisdiction. You're stuck with them no matter how rude they decide to be.
Bavarian cops are known to be absolute pieces of shit. When I was younger I used to travel to Munich from Poland via bus (because it was the cheapest way), and we got stopped and frisked EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Imagine this for a second - I am a EU citizen of a country that signed the Schengen agreement, and yet I get my passport confiscated and my belongings searched every time I am in Germany. Not even a single "sorry" by the officers either.
Actually, having traveled a lot I have come to appreciate bavarian cops (and northern/central european cops in general) as being professional and downright civil when compared to some of their southern European counterparts (say from Spain, Italy or France). I've noticed, though, that it always helps to have at least some knowledge of the local language.
There are always A-holes around in the police but consistently getting the frisky treatment would make me wonder if something in my appearance could be seen as cop-bait. Maybe the dreads and the weed silhouette on your cap? Just kidding, but since we don't know what you looked like, it's hard to tell if what happened to you was plain bad luck or something in your looks and/or expressed attitude. Definitely not something that happens to everyone.
I am just a regular normal white guy. You can book a night bus from Breslau/Kattowitz to Munich and I guarantee you will get stopped and searched too.
The cops never found anything, but they succeeded in making me hate their guts for the rest of my life.
So, you hate the guts of people who do their jobs.
It's not the job of Police to single out people based on their ethnicity and search them for drugs without any probable cause.
Probable cause is an American legal concept, not a German one.
It's the job of the police to single out people based on their experience and search them for drugs/things they shouldn't have/other problems. There are always two sides, it's easy to pick one and then cry foul.
Nope, this really is well known. It doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens to lots of Czechs and Poles in Bavaria. To the point of causing diplomatic incidents on occasions.
Bavarian bureaucrats too. What's up with Bavaria?
Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.
Bayern gehört zu Österreich... duda, duda.
Having a Austrian father and a sister who lives in Austria, I say: the Austrian cops are said to be more civil than their Bavarian counterpart (and I'd prefer to live in Austria than in Bavaria).
Some in law enforcement feel that it's better to subdue resistance right at the beginning of the interaction with decisive or even harsh treatment. They go for the "Shock and awe" approach.
People treat you as guilty until proven innocent.
It probably would have been worth trying to ask a question: "I have interviews for two consulting projects at X hours and Y hours. Is it likely that I will be able to make them in time?"
Possible benefits include:
-- Getting a straight answer.
-- Breaking the mental model whereby the police are dehumanizing you and/or lumping you into a certain profile.
-- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :)
It appears you've never had a real encounter with Police.
I've actually worked with the Police. ALL training is about asserting power when dealing with suspects (a suspect is anyone you stop or talk to - no matter what the circumstances; think about how many people reporting a crime actually end up being arrested themselves due to something they say which incriminates them, even in something tangential and unrelated to what they are reporting).
The moment someone tries to reassert control, training is to respond with additional aggressive responses to overwhelm resistance. Call in backup, draw a taser/gun/baton, physically take hold of the person etc.
Try pulling things like talking about your consulting projects and asking for a guarantee about making a meeting and you'll be lucky not to be face down on the ground in under 5 seconds and spend the next 24 hours sitting in a cell.
In all my years, I think I probably met less than 5 colleagues who could proportionately and reasonably interact with people, defuse tensions and remain in control (of both the situation and themselves). All the rest relied solely on the power assertion training and some couldn't even interact with other police officers without trying to assert power over each other. That always got nasty, especially when they did it to someone who, like them, didn't know how to back down or defuse a situation.
Unless you have a crack team of lawyers monitoring your every move, your best approach is to be compliant and non-confrontation. Remember as much detail as you can (especially names/numbers) and make a formal complaint later on, via a lawyer if possible, once you're out of custody (and preferably out of easy reach - remember the police are 24x7, they can expend huge resources to hound you out of sheer vexatiousness. You have to sleep. They don't.).
Most european police forces train for de-escalation. Treating another person the way you want to be treated makes a huge difference.
The trick is: don't ask that question trying to put yourself above the police. Say it in a way that feels like asking for help. Suddenly, getting it your way becomes for them a way to show their power over you.
Haven't tried that with police, but it worked in other cases where I had to interact with people who had the means to ruin my day.
At the end of the day they are also people and they interact with other people in their day to day lives. When they go to the bank they don't arrest the teller. When they go to the supermarket they don't arrest the cashier. When they go home they don't arrest their wife and kids. Maybe they've seen the same movie you did last night. Maybe they are fans of the the same team. Maybe their brother went to school with you.
You can connect with anyone on a personal level but you need to have people skills. If you're confrontational and non compliant you're setting yourself up for this power contest you can't win.
Power tripping carries over into their personal lives. Their families have a much higher rate of domestic violence than the general population.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-o...
"police officers in Florida have an x2-x4 higher rate of domestic violence" isn't quite the same as saying all police officers are out there to beat up whatever person they encounter in their day to day lives. They're still people and they still need social skills even to be able to work with their bosses and co-workers. For example, I've met a pretty tough police officer in a Toastmasters club who I'm sure could under some circumstances be very assertive but at the same time can obviously interact with people like a normal person under other circumstances. I've also met plenty of non police with hot tempers and violent tendencies.
Anyhow my point is the outcome isn't pre-determined and you have some ability to influence how things go by using some people skills.
My approach: say politely "How can I help you, Officer?" I have the theory that, in the first seconds of interaction, the Officer places me in a category: citizen, or perp. I want to be in the citizen category.
Probably it helps that I'm a 6'4" white educated male, with a nice smile I think.
What country was that?
The UK. My role saw interaction across different jurisdictions and the UK seemed better than some (some of the US stuff was eye popping, even based on my experience). I'm sure there are places better than the UK but I can just base things on my experience. Others may be able to comment on the good based on their experience.
The most likely outcome:
-- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get "you" into trouble "now"
I have tried this (I am from India). Any question to authority, whether police or TSA or Immigration officers will make sure that instead of ~30 mins, you will end up wasting 3-4 hours.
Of course, results might be different if you belong to the same race as officer. But that was the point of the article.
Do you really mean "question", or do you mean "challenge"?
If it's "challenge", I understand your point. If it's "question", then even though I'm a white male who's unlikely to be adversely profiled, I'm still tempted to wonder whether you're doing it wrong.
I meant "question".
I guess, it is difficult (not impossible) to empathize with what other people go through, when you are able to breeze through such interactions. Just to give an example, I (a male) can point out that women should present ideas in a better way when their ideas are trivially dismissed in meetings. But that would be brushing aside the sexism in workplace/society. Similarly, in this case we should look at the numbers, which overwhelmingly suggest that people of color (or a specific religion/region) are questioned much more frequently. I am sure that many of such people can speak with clarity and question with respect.
But the police situation is fundamentally a lot simpler than the workplace one, because it is a single interaction. If you fear you are being lumped into a category by them that it is not good to belong to, you really have only two goals:
1. Avoid truly terrible outcomes (being shot, beaten, framed for a crime, etc.).
2. Get re-categorized.
There are many stories in the news of people of color failing to achieve these goals, even when they are pleasant and polite. But there are few stories of pleasant, polite interaction making their situations WORSE ... except that if your politeness is ignored, it can be dangerous to repeat yourself, because that can indeed be construed as a challenge.
> Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :)
I know the comment was tongue-in-cheek, but it bears mentioning: when dealing with the police, your objective should be to escape the situation unscathed, not to provoke them. Remember that criminal charges, severe injury, or even death are possible consequences of any encounter with law enforcement.
I guess it's different in the US, but I've never felt like I was in danger around European police.
Asking a question could provoke them, though.
The policeman is in your head, the terrorists have won.
"the man" has won
No, the terrorists win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians and bringing down the government they were targeting. Forcing us to go through very annoying security measures is a loss for us but does not count as a terrorist "win".
No. All terrorism is about changing behavior. Terrorists want you to either start doing something or want you to stop doing something. Killing, maiming or treats of killing or maiming are means to that end.
Most terrorism is about keeping the funds flowing for the guy sending the other guys off to blow themselves (and/or any bystanders who happen to be in the vicinity) to smithereens.
The IRA wanted a united island of Ireland, for example. They didn't think they'd "won" because rubbish bins were removed from stations. Complaining that the terrorists are "winning" because the TSA makes us take off our shoes at airports or our civil liberties have eroded somewhat is to miss the point completely.
I am pretty sure they've asked hime where he is going.
The article says "The police hasn’t taken any real effort to engage in a dialog to discover my reasons for visiting Munich" so I'm not convinced you're correct.
Münchner cops are the best. I was hit by a police car on my way home from work earlier this year (not my fault). Instead of calling the ambulance the guy spent 15min on police radio, he looked scared as shit. Eventually, an elderly lady that witnessed the whole thing called the ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. I'm just glad I wasn't seriously injured, still I had to wear crutches for a few weeks which was extremely annoying.
Made for a fun punchline when explaining the "bus factor" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor at a talk I gave at a company conference later on.
I can tell you from second hand experience that this also happens to white people. I was with friends heading by car from the Netherlands to Germany and our more than white driver got a ver special handling by the police because they thought he would be driving under the effects of weed (which was definitely not the case).
Apparently there was some sort of festival happening and they assumed we would belong to another group of people and our driver looked sufficiently like a druggie I guess.
But being polite and understanding of the situation you can get out of this usually without much of a hassle.
So you have anecdotal evidence that the police once searched a white person. Cool. ;)
I'm afraid Racial Profiling is still real.
I witnessed something similar in mid-May this year on an ICE train between Nürnberg and München.
As is normal, everyone's train ticket was checked (including mine), but when they came to a group of Chinese tourists, there was a problem with one passenger - he'd pre-purchased 3 months prior with a credit card, but the credit card had since been stolen during their international trip. In Germany, Deutsche Bahn require you to present the exact credit card used to purchase your ticket as identification when asked.
The ticket inspector didn't believe the passenger, saying "If your card really was stolen, your replacement card will be the same number" and "If your credit card was stolen you would go to the police to report it." I spoke up at this point in support, explaining that in other countries (at least in Australia), you get a new credit card number so thieves can't use the old number online. But the officer was convinced card numbers were immutable. The passenger did have a police report, but the German officer said "This case number is for British Police, checking this is too difficult."
The inspector asked for the passengers passport - understandably the passenger was not about to surrender his main identification to someone else. The inspector said he could not assist if he did not see the passport, and the passenger then allowed him to see the passport. But when he provided it, the inspector looked at it, then said "Thank you, I now take this, you do not get this back until the police arrive and the police will decide if they give it back to you."
The passenger was part of a tour group, and all of the other tickets had been valid. They asked if they would all be arrested, the inspector said no, but when they asked if they could accompany him to the police station, the inspector said "No, you are not allowed to, only he can go with the police." The entire group all got out at the next stop anyway, where the passenger was arrested by police. After an argument the police did allow the tour group to follow, at least through Munich Station for as far as I could see.
TLDR: the passenger had a successfully pre-purchased ticket, had passport identification that matched the payment details, bank & police statements to support his story of a stolen credit card, but he was still arrested by Munich police. And Munich was only a stop they were passing through during their train journey! I adore Germany, but seeing this left a terrible impression. That Deutsche Bahn card ID policy is crazy, and something is very wrong with Munich's authorities. I'll stick to Berlin next time.
France has the same weird credit card policy, and i, too, have been bitten by it. Luckily i got off with a mere telling off by a very surly conductor, when it became obvious i wasn't magically going to produce another credit card. The insanity is on two levels though; using the card as ID but also the fact that they're so damned serious about it. You've got actual, state-provided ID that matches, a valid ticket, but they still give you lip. It's incredible.
"Luckily", i'm caucasian and i speak French, but god help me if i had been of north African phenotype (and for the uninitiated: we're talking about French-speaking born-in-France natives who still get treated like shit) — that's the favourite scapegoat in this part of the world :/.
EDIT: In fact, the whole idea of identifying myself on public transport gives me the shivers. I much prefer the situation where you simply buy anonymous tickets that are valid to the bearer. IMHO the rail authorities have no business knowing who i am, especially since in most cases you're not even crossing borders. And even when you are, they're more likely than not Schengen, in which case there's theoretically no place for the shake-down either. Compare the case where you're sitting in a car — checks are very rare in my experience.
> using the card as ID
> You've got actual, state-provided ID that matches, a valid ticket, but they still give you lip. It's incredible.
So the identity check on the trains is more strict than on the planes (there one needs only national ID or passport with the name matching the name from the reservation). It seems to be the case in at least France and Germany. How come?
> In Germany, Deutsche Bahn require you to present the exact credit card used to purchase your ticket as identification when asked.
I've seen this happening on a Deutsche Bahn train Berlin-Dresden. It was a young backpacker not speaking German. He had a printout confirming that he booked the ticket online. The conductor demanded to see the exact physical card the guy used to pay for the booking. The guy said it was a virtual card and physically it doesn't even exist (even in case of a traditional credit/debit card one doesn't have to have it physically to be a legitimate owner and to make legitimate transactions). The conductor said the ticket is invalid and the guy has to buy a new one (sic!). He was going to Prague and had to pay again for a ride to the border with Czech Republic. WTF Deutsche Bahn?!
I, knowing people here are at odds with credit/debit cards and online booking, bought the ticket from a human by the counter (not without a queue) and didn't have any problems.
I have not had the exact same experience but I traveled very often by car through Germany (as a Dutch citizen) for holidays. My experiences are as follows:
- Drive in a (new) Audi A3 on lease:
Get stopped every other time. Completely strip my car and luggage. Throw everything on the ground until everything was spread in a 3m radius around my car. Leave me to pick everything up and tetris it back into the trunk and instead start complaining about how the car is not registered on the same name as my passport.
- Drive in a used Toyota Prius:
<blank>
I used to get stopped, singled out and searched at the borders all the time, but the expansion of the Schengen zone put an end to that years ago. A young man, traveling on his own from Amsterdam (especially on a Dutch passport) is a red flag to these officious pricks.
It's disturbing that the Germans unilaterally decided to abolish the Schengen zone. Temporarily they say.
By now I guess I've aged out of the target group, so they leave me alone. And I don't look like the OP.
As you say, Schengen does not allow for large-scale border controls in Europe. Random checks are allowed though if they have the purpose of stopping illegal activity such as drug or money trafficking (e.g. from Luxembourg, the Netherlands or Switzerland).
The stricter controls that have been in place for the last weeks, which also only involve randomized searches on a slightly larger scale but only at several points of the border, are also legally covered under the Schengen accord and serve the purpose to get a better handle on the thousands of unregistered immigrants flowing into Germany every day (this year alone, more than 1.5 million regugees might come to Germany, many of them completely unregistered). Concerning the scale of the current crisis I think these measures are absolutely appropriate and not overly extreme.
I don't think this had anything to do with refugees. They busted the OP because they assumed they'd find drugs on him.
Young man - check. From Amsterdam - check. Dutch passport - check. Dark skin - check. Dreadlocks - check
In their mind this kid was going to have dope on him no matter what.
We have to tackle the problem together, to keep accomplishments like Schengen, because the argument works the other way round, too:
The Netherlands have much stricter asylum laws than Germany has, with or without border controls. Maybe you could take some of the 1.5 million refugees, that will arrive in Germany this year. You took only 25k last year. Stuff like the border controls are really just measurements to prevent our versions of Geert Wilders from gaining traction.
NL doesn't have stricter asylum laws than Germany, despite the big mouth of the guy you just mentioned. I'm also skeptical about the 1.5 million figure. People with a political agenda are putting intimidating figures like that in the media.
Fewer come here because of the location - this would only be your first entry point in the EU if you arrive at the airport - and the fact that it's not a famous, charismatic country. They want to go where they have friends and family first, failing that, they want to go to an English speaking country, failing that, next choice are Germany and France. Any other place they end up is mostly settling for what happens to work out.
Any way, I used to get a similar (less extreme) treatment way back in the 90's, before refugees were an issue.
Edit: and I obviously don't look like a refugee. The events destribed by the OP were obviously a drug bust.
The Schengen zone is pretty valuable to the EU and to Germany, it seems likely they'll re-establish it.
I wonder if the author has protested at any point (getting into an unmarked vehicle, not being returned to original destination, being ordered to take the clothes off (!?)). I also wonder if he was formally informed of the reason behind the detainment.
And finally: if ever faced with such a situation, does a person have the right to a) record everything that happens on the phone (including faces of the police officers + audio), and b) if asked to stop, would it be ok to say "i have the right to record all you do" or something similar?
To my knowledge, you are allowed to record the police. There was a sentence by the highest German court just a few weeks ago, stating that the police is not allowed to ask for ids of protesters recording them [0].
You generally have quite a few rights at police checks. For example, you are allowed to decline a breath test. The problem with these rights is, that you lose time if you exercise them, because they will take you to the station. So they are not that useful in cases like this.
It is highly unlikely that the German police will beat you up or something like that, but you will have wasted some hours. Just be friendly and do not confess anything. Especially at traffic stops, they will ask you why they stopped you. Just say you do not know, because you do not have to incriminate yourself.
[0]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundesverfassungsgericht-ur...
Reading the article I wondered what you can do/say to the police. Due to this EU "Factsheet" it seems not much:
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_defendants_in_...
edit: ah, that's only for "England and Wales", I misread. Someone's got link on actual EU law extract? (is there even any EU law for this?)
Criminal law (StGB in .de) and rules relating to proceedings in crime-related investigations (StPO in.de) are not harmonized in the EU, so no, there is no EU law for this.
There isn't. Each country will have it's own law for dealing with the police, there's not much on the EU-wide level that you could use.
You're right. In the portal there are the rights in criminal proceedings described for each country:
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_victims_of_cri...
not much. EU hasn't got to the point to require strong citizen protections from law enforcement for whatever reason. UK is more similar to the US since uses a similar framework, but many accepted doctrines are quite different in EU even state by state, for example about the allowance of illegally obtained evidence
I used to take these busses before because they were cheap going to and from Sweden from Germany. The only people ever questioned by the border police were non-white or eastern europeans.
"Is Germany a racist country? That is what a new documentary, Black on White, is trying to find out. Its findings are shocking. But, as Damien McGuinness reports, the filmmaker himself has been criticized by black Germans for his methods."[1]
Racism is obviously very much alive, it's just no longer blatant. You can't say the n word and people rarely do (some people mistake racism with purely this blatant form of bigotry and ignore the rest), but racial profiling happens every day, even in small interactions with people. I can't count the number of times I'd get to finally know someone, consider them as a new friend, and they'd drop the 'I didn't think you were like this (like them), I thought you'd be like xyz (stereotype of my ethnicity)'. That's racial profiling and it affects a lot of things. Getting checked on an international bus or train is almost guaranteed for me, concerts or clubs? Checked, airplanes? Everyone gets checked but extra searches, taking your shoes off etc is reserved for us special few.
Anyway that doesn't even bother me, sure racial profiling for security checks are degrading but it doesn't affect me much personally in my life, it's a minor nuisance all things considered. What depresses me is, you recall that guy on HN who tried to find an apartment in Munich?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8360390
> The conclusion from this little study, is that a girl with an italian name, gets an 90% answer rate, a guy with an arab name and is younger than 25 gets, 1% answer rate. The master of all, is the young munich guy who is around 25
That's racial profiling, too. It's based on the same principles of racial profiling, that we judge people based on their ethnicity rather than as individuals who happened to have a certain skin color, and then treat people differently. And obviously it's not just trying to find a home to rent, it's jobs etc etc.
Racial profiling, supposedly unlawful in Germany, but you can't really do anything about it when it happens -- except for being an impolite and passive-aggressive smartass (do know your limits, though) and making the officers feel bad about what they're doing.
While living in Munich I was approached twice by police officers later in the evening (around 10-11pm) coming out of U-Bahn stations.
On one occasion the seemingly plain-clothed officers flashed a badge and started rifling through my jean pockets in the same motion. I actually thought I was being mugged.
After the fact they were all smiles and conversation, but whatever the local laws are, they're badly missing the point of who they're trying to protect.
"I’ve been raised to consider the police my friend. I understand the notion of them being in office to protect and serve the people and I have felt comfortable in the presence of the law as long as I can remember. Naive[sic] as ever I went into this experience just like that… with the police as my ally."
OP should write a nice thank you letter to the München cops for disabusing him of this notion. It was his responsibility as an adult to have learned long ago that the authorities are not your friends and the cops are not on your side.
Just imagine the nasty policies of total fascist police empowerment that he's probably been voting for with ideas like that. Maybe a little education will have straightened him out a bit.
Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem. I'm glad OP is wiser and I hope he will now run his life with due consideration for how things are instead of some childish fantasy of how things should be.
It's imperative to memorize the rules of legal limits and rights you have with cops in any country you transit often. In those you visit just once, memorize the phrase "I demand to speak to my embassy immediately," but learn to be patient because it takes a very long time to work. In America, learn to say "I do not consent to a search," and "I want to speak to a lawyer," and "am I free to go," and don't say anything else.
I don't know the rules for Germany, but OP needs to.
So go look them up, OP. It's your responsibility now that you've been educated. Also, if there's a citizen grievance procedure, it's your immediate responsibility to file one.
> Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem.
All of the encounters I've had with British police have always been fantastic, they're always respectful, tell you exactly what they're stopped you for, what's going to happen next. I'm glad I live in a country where I don't have to fear the police.
Thats such arrogant drivel. Ever thought that your attitude might actually be part of the problem? If you approach any other group of people with contempt and suspicion, they will approach you the same and trying to teach people to 'toughen up' and 'learn some lesson' about reality will not improve the situation
Just because cops might have too much power in the states and sometimes get armed with former military equipment doesn't mean you need to generally expect cops to act in bad faith the way you describe. It's not some "childish fantasy" that it's not like that in other countries, it's reality in may that police are generally courteous.
There was a similar discussion on here recently about it being a 'rookie mistake' to approach work situations in good faith and that you should have everything on contractual basis and getting a lawyer. That's such a horrible approach to live and again, from what I hear it seems to some degree be an unfortunate reality in the states, but that does not mean that it should be accepted like this and that it's just an inevitable part of a society.
Victim blaming. They've got a job to do and if they can't, they should get a different job.
I wouldn't say people who expect the police to be nice are part of the problem, but the police are not your friends. They follow their instructions and protect the law, which is also not on your side. It's on the side of the abstract "majority", so you have a very high chance of not being included.
"if the laptop ends up defective and I would have to setup a new laptop with all of my build environments and rewrite all the uncommitted code on my trusty old pal. I would end up losing days installing all of my tools"
Don't let yourself get into this situation, folks!
Every day is backup day.
I was "controlled" once at Sendlingertor on my way to work one morning. As I turned a cornet, I noticed two large white cops ~20 meters away. I made the briefest of eye contact before looking away/putting my head down and walking with purpose to my exit escalators. They intercepted me and asked for ID. I answered 'um, I have to get to work'. One officer laughed and said 'that doesn't really matter'.
I handed my UK drivers license. They asked me if I had an arrest record, but with my poor German, I thought they meant if I was registered in Munich, so I mumbled an affirmative. One officer stepped back to radio in my details and check my record. The other asked me if I had any drugs. I said no. He asked me to show him the inside folds of my wallet and the contents of my pocket. He didn't actually actively search me himself, just made me show him that I didn't have any drugs squirreled away.
The whole thing was surreal and over in 3-4 minutes. Streams of workers walking by during the whole event. I was shaking with adrenaline and itching to protest against this unprovoked intrusion into my life. But I stayed calm and they moved on. It was a weird experience. I'm only glad that they didn't actively search me, it would have made the whole thing even more demeaning.
I assume I was singled out for three reasons: - My baggy pants, loose tshirt combination - My slightly not white enough skin color. - The ridiculous and increased police presence that always seems to surround Munich a few times a year (usually around the time of the Munich Security Conference but not always: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference).
FWIW, I've never had problems with other Munich civil servants. They are usually just doing their work, and if you're polite/pleasant, it's usually reciprocated. The police on the other hand seem to have a bug up their ass (except during Oktoberfest, where they also seem more relaxed). I have a dark skinned friend in Munich who gets controlled every few months. Once while eating his lunch in tiny park in the heart of Munich on a sunny day surrounded by other citizens!
This Wu Tang encounter with Munich police sums it all up: http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhAonAI6tetw...
"I still understand that the police does its job, but during the experience I felt an intense hatred for the office. After a multitude of such experiences it isn’t far-fetched to imagine that the parties subjected to such treatment develop an enduring hatred for the office and everything associated to it. I guess the idea of being powerless is one of the many very frustrating things about this ordeal. Can I blame people for disliking the police if many of their experiences are as negative as the one I’ve had and probably often even worse?"
This realization doesn't seem to ever strike some people their entire lives. When harassment by authority is a common occurrence and a source of anxiety it's difficult to keep up appearances.
I know a couple of cops, and as a cop you indeed do profiling on "random" checks.
You simply pick someone where common experience shows that a "hit" is likely. Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him. In other cities, being young, white and speak with "gangsta speak" and hanging out with your friends can be an invitation for the police to check if you got knives on you. Or if you generally behave nervous, check if the person has an arrest warrant open instead of just looking at the ID card.
There are no official quotas to fill like in the US, but it is definitely better if you profile and have a "good looking" checked person/hit ratio.
"Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him."
Chances are high that a black dude has pot on him, or chances are high that a dude with pot on him is black? Those are actually two different things.[1]
Do you have the names and badge numbers of the officers?
Maybe the world does need wearable networked glasses. Press an "Alert" button to signal to your network that you want the m to watch.. feeds spread virally, the whole world watches..
I suspect that he may actually have been singled out for his hair style (dreadlocks, if this photo is correct [0]), not his skin color. Now, this would _also_ be stupid and inappropriate, but it fits with the cliché, maybe due to Bob Marley or whatever.
[0] http://en.solarswing.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/portret_d...
> This is what it feels like to get in touch with the police? Unidirectional respect?
Yes. No matter how good a police force's reputation, once you're in their hands, you better make sure you make them feel respected if you want to get out of their grasp quickly. Otherwise, trouble.
That said, German police in general are pretty laid back and respectful in my experience :-)
This kind of behaviour needs to be filmed. It must be getting pretty cheap to do a button camera?
I imagine the recent US cases of police impropriety will stir some changes. At least it held some attention for a while.
On another note, when I'm treated badly by the system, I tend to feel a bit sorry for the person on the other end eventually. It's dehumanizing to not be able to behave in the way you find reasonable, and I doubt most cops think it's useful to randomly stop people for no reason. Same goes with the bureaucrat who won't approve your passport because you're smiling in the photo. These people would most likely not like to do as they do, but they are as powerless as their victims. When you meet them, you tell yourself not to get angry; they are trained to do as they are told, not to think. And that sucks for everyone.
Gave me shivers to read this, especially how helpless one must feel in this situation.
This is abnormally stupid. There is absolutely no reason to do these searches. It helps no one. And it sucks really hard that you can't do anything about it. It's infuriating.
Police is influental enough to eventually get immunity from law, granted by lawmakers. After that they don't bother themself with any sort of politeness. If something goes wrong, they can always use force, blame the victim and get out of it.
This is a standing problem, not one of us is immune, we should be fixing it in the future.
I had a similar experience when I made the mistake of telling the officer I was coming from Amsterdam, the drug capital of Europe.
That sucks, but I think I would like to hear the other side of the story before I render judgement.
"We saw a person of colour on the bus and it smelled vaguely like weed so we forced them to get off and strip for us to prove they weren't a drug dealer"?
Is that the official statement?
"Sorry, we know it's a little racist to single out the black guys, but the war on weed justifies radical measures. We're in Bavaria after all, everybody here knows weed is a dangerous gateway drug."
Actually Bavaria has a big and growing Crystal problem, and weed is indeed a gateway drug.
Of course it isn't a gateway drug. Complete nonsense.
Not everyone who smokes weed does harder drugs, but everyone who does harder drugs did smoke weed at some point. This argument makes sense and is not some version of "all spree killers eat bread, so bread must be bad", because the percentage of the population that smokes weed is relatively low (in Germany).
I am for legalization but I do allow myself to think differentiated, even about things I support.
I have seen people with psychoses caused by marijuana and I know smokers, who struggle to get something going in their lives.
I am not saying that weed is evil, I just know, that for some people it can be really dangerous.
Not sure why you're being down voted. I've also grown to want both sides. We don't know what's going on at the time and I trust cops as much as I trust the accused.
Indeed. But it's getting to be a typical thing these days. It's more react with emotions on the story that supports the bias instead of finding out the truth of the situation. Like the responses I'm getting of made up quotes, as if that's the truth of the matter. They don't even bother to ask what my initial feelings on the matter are, it's just an immediate disagreement because I don't automatically support the narrative they like. It's rather pathetic in my eyes.
I can understand the hatred, and professionalism apart (which must absolutely be expected), how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport?
Just to be more clear, potential as probability higher than a certain value (not being 100% right)
Everyone is a potential trafficker, murder or criminal. That is what makes being a cop so difficult. However, the magnitude of the potential is usually determined by things like information and evidence.
> how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport?
I mean, maybe he had an amazing fake passport and body cavities full of drugs but it is a bit difficult to roll the dice on those assumptions if 1) the passport is real 2) he didn't.
They didn't have evidence. I've dabbled in my fare share of narcotics as well, and if you could "smell" it. It was only possible to mean some sort of cannibus. What human could smell an oz of Coke inside another human? Seems like a pretty broad over reach here, either straight up incompetence or racism.
Yes, the smell was specified in the article, you can't smell anything else
What does that even mean, a "potential trafficker"? I say that you are a potential trafficker, is it then alright for the police to make you take off all your clothes?
If you say that then the police will evaluate your statement together with the situation it is presented and the other information they might have on the involved persons
Which does not imply all the actions taken were correct
Consider this: the police themselves are potential traffickers with fake passports when they're off duty and out of uniform.
One could argue they're more likely to be traffickers when ON duty. Who's going to pull over the police and search them for drugs?
You mean, a "potential trafficker with a fake passport" like you personally? Or, only if it's somebody else?
where did you see that this passport is fake?
It might be a suspicion regardless, especially if the police was given a tip, the situation of the inspection and the fact that there was no way of establishing nationality by other means (like speaking the language, which might have helped)